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BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM Lox, I've noticed the last couple days that your posts have been getting out of hand. Lots of one-line chatroom quips, and lots of insults. This is a discussion forum, not a chat room. Settle down, and discuss. I deleted your latest series of messages, and those of the individual who responded to you. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- P.S. You only get one warning |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: CarolC Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM On the subject of humor, mine was meant that way, too. But someone who hasn't got a sense of humor won't see it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM I would like to apologise to Joe Offer for disturbing the forum. I should have been more skillful in combating the insults. I have been here 5 1/2 years and have been on the receiving end of enough trash to be abe to handle it better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM Dear Poppagator. Earlier in this thread you posted as follows: " ... when you wrote the phrase "Black Messiah," you were not being sarcastic? Coulda fooled me! I'm not terribly offended, and even perceive a bit of humor in that usage ~ even though I don't agree with you. But I have to observe that your critics were merely expressing their opinions of your viewpoint, while your f-word-laden reponses were much more clearly in violation of the "no personal nastiness" principle." I am grateful for your point of view, but I disagree on one point. While I am not personally offended by the term "black Messiah" either, I nonetheless view it as deeply insulting, derogatory and inappropriate. And though I might get a joke, and indeed have no difficulty understanding this one, my ability to enjoy it is significantly undermined when I consider that to do so I must ignore the hurt it would cause to good friends of mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM Peace, Thought you might enjoy this article on the subject of Obama/Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Peace Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM Thanks, Lox. So, allow me to revise my opinion . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM What determines whether something is an insult is the intention of the person who uses them. That's why an expression like "do-gooder" counts as an insult, even though ostensibly it should count as a compliment. It seems to me that "Black Messiah" as used there by pdq was pretty evidently intended as a sneer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:50 PM Anyone who enters the political arena had best be prepared for a hefty dose of ridicule, deserved and undeserved. They can expect to be fodder for the equal-opportunity late-night comics who need monolgue material five nights a week, and will take a shot at anyone regardless of their position on the political spectrum. They can also, of course, expect to endure even greater abuse from those with whom they truly differ on issues, basic philosophy, etc. If an African-American candidiate needs special immunity from this normal nasty give-and-take, school-of-hard-knocks process, then I would suppose that means that the nation is not ready for an African-American candidate ~ which is NOT what I believe. I think we ARE ready for a President Obama, so I have to assume that Mr (and Mrs!) Obama must be ready for us ~ ALL of us, even political opponents and folks with philosophical and even personal differences, and even people who are simply downright rude. And as for anyone likely to get their own feelings hurt by proxy, well, they simply need to get over themselves. I absolutely recognize that we are not "colorblind" as a society, but we need to be moving in that direction, and that means that everyone needs to reassess their assumptions. Nobody should get a free pass because of their membership in a "victim" class. As a constituent of the crooked Congressman William Jefferson and the incompetant Mayor C. Ray Nagin, I can attest to the damage that can result from African-American politicians being protected from criticism and held to a relaxed set of standards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bobert Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:59 PM The entire idea of a "Black Masiah" as the McCain PR team has tried to frame Obama as such I find terribly condesending on the McCain teams part... Might of fact, just about everything that the McCain t team has put together is intended to discredit Obama personally... The problem I have with this isn't as much accepting the reality that negative ads work but that it has been McCain's team that started the campaign down a slippery slope and now Obama's team, or order to not be rolled over with negativity is having to return in kind... The losers, of course, will be the American people because it is this negativity that fuels partisanship and partisanship is the major reason that the system doesn't work... And "Black Masiah" could have been the idea that McCain, the so called maverick and straight shooter, could have said, "Not on my watch"... But he didn't and now I think it is too late to bring any level of civility to this campaign or to our government... Shame on you, John "straight talker" McCain... Shame on you... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,Hawkwind Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM Heard something on the radio earlier about one of the guys running for vice president. It appears he is a great admirer of Ex-Labour deputy Prime Minister John Prescott and often quotes Prescott in speeches ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM Poppagator, In response to your post: I also believe all politicians are subject to ruthless scrutiny. In fact I believe that all political opinions are subject to ruthless scrutiny. Including yours and mine. And any mudcatter who cares to research will find that in the heat of the moment I have inflicted heavy doses of ridicule on views that I find abhorrent. The racial aspect of the "black messiah" joke is an essential part of its construct. It doesn't work without it. Try saying ... "new messiah" ... hmmm ... not funny ... I know ... how about ... "liberal messiah" ... nope ... still not funny ... No aspect of Obamas politics, opinions or actions are scrutinized or lampooned by this joke and neither are the politics, views or actions of his supporters, despite the supposedly subtle suggestion that he is only where he is because people are blinded by his colour. As for cleverness or originality, this joke has been so often repeated since Obama first began to look like a contender, that its comic value has long since been chewed to death and has lost its flavour ... The only comic value left, is that provided by its usefulness to taunt and provoke. The only enjoyment left is for those who enjoy the discomfiture of those whom it insults. And who does it insult the most? liberals or blacks? And why? because of their views or because they're black? The answer is that it insults blacks because they are black. Stand up comics do indeed make jokes based on race. But sometimes they get it wrong. Like Kramer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM Hawkwind, Crazy! Prescott into America! This I have to see! lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:43 PM McCain is a phony war hero. The Vietnam war was a fiasco and it serves very little to honor those who bombed innocent people there. Lieberman is a dangerous politician who would start WW III in a heartbeat. Obama might pick Biden but he might not too. He is the only candidate left to vote for who won't bring the US to absolute ruin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM Stringsinger, If an article posted on the "war in georgia" thread is correct, McCain is as dangerous a politician as you say liebermann is for the same reasons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,Hawkwind Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:59 PM Lox, there was something on the radio when I was driving home from work this evening about this guy who is running for vice-president and he admired John Prescott and quotes his words a lot. Ah, not exactly the role model any UK politician would use, the guy was an ignoramus and dockside bar fighter ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM Hawkwind, I'm amazed that anyone would be able to decipher prescotts words clearly enough to quote them at all. Have you any idea which candidate it was? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Emma B Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:11 PM John Prescott 'A former ship's steward and trade union activist, he was presented as the political link to the working class in a "New" Labour party led by modernising middle class professionals. Prescott had overcome the handicap of failing his grammar school entrance Eleven Plus examination, to graduate from Ruskin College in Oxford. Prescott also developed a reputation as a key conciliator in the often tense relationship between the two other senior figures in government, then chancellor Gordon Brown and former Prime Minister Tony Blair.' He had a Hull accent too I suppose that also makes him good for a laugh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bobert Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM Well, I don't buy this prevailing McCain spin that "all politcans fo this or that"... That is PR and part of the McCain teams strategy and I will asmit that it does seem to be working... I hear people sayin' all over... Well, Obama is afterall just another polityican... Yeah, the McCain team wants people to think this and say this because then the voter demotes Obama to McCain's level... I don't buy it because I see right thru it as pure PR bullsh*t on McCain's people's part... Yeah, they know their candidate can't get up to Obama's level so they have top try to bring Obvama down to John McCain's level... Good politics... Good strategy... Bad for America... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM Emma, I don't think prescotts accent funny. My brother lived in hull for nearly ten years and I went there many times to visit him, to play in sessions and to hook up with numerous other people from there that I met on my travels. I haven't been up for about 10 years now but I have a lot of affection for hull, its folk scene, a girl I had a relationship with there, a young man who committed suicide that I met there and the rugby league side (Hull FC not HKR) who I went to Old Trafford to watch beat Widnes in 1991. I have found that Prescott gets bogged down in poorly constructed sentences on occasion which in a politician can be unhelpful, hence my response to Hawkwind above. His televised use of fists against a member of public and his extramarital affair had their day as sources of amusement, but that day has since passed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Emma B Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:53 PM In a melee Precott was hit by an egg thrown at him from behind by a protester. He described the episode as "frightening" and said he wanted to get back to campaigning "without any violence or intimidation". At the time it was admitted "He regrets the whole incident ever happened. He felt a blow on the side of his head and reacted instinctively." A blow thrown in 'self defence' does not make him a 'dockside bar fighter' any more than achieving a degree at Oxford as a 'mature student' makes him an 'ignoramus' It is far too easy as the Jack Wheeler remarks quoted on another thread demonstrates to discredit politicians of any race, class or gender by thise sort of perjorative descriptions |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 08:11 PM Emma, I agree with you. Anyone who might describe him in those terms should be corrected. And as I am currently a mature student I would take such criticism on those grounds personally. A great communicator however, john prescott is not. Hence my initial observation which has now also passed its sell by date. Are you implying a connection between the issue of Obama that I commented on and the issue of prescott that you have commented on? And if so are you hoping to expose an inconsistency in my reasoning? Or are you agreeing that there are boundaries over which it is unacceptable to step? Would you mind clarifying that point for me? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM Well I've just seen a news report saying that Obama has made his decision ... he's just not telling us who it is yet. The suspense is killing me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Lox Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM Apparently it will be delivered to his supporters by text message. Nice little campaign gimmick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Emma B Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM 'Or are you agreeing that there are boundaries over which it is unacceptable to step?' yes I am Lox. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM Well, when he finally came to his senses after having been pelted with an egg, did he finally come to his senses? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Ebbie Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM NBC tonight said that the class that Joe Biden teaches on Saturdays has been told that they may have a substitute teacher tomorrow. Woo hee! My fingers are crossed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:46 PM Joe Biden is a very divisive person and will be an "in your face" choice. He will not pull any Republicans over to the Democrats' side. McCain should choose a "uniter" not a "divider". |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: CarolC Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM Obama has pulled quite a few Republicans over to his side all by himself. I've even met and heard about people who have been Republicans their whole lives and who have never voted for anything other than a Republican for president who are enthusiastically backing Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Ebbie Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM pdq, in response to an earlier post, I want to make it clear that I have voted for many a Republican (Why, some of my best friends are Republicans. *BG*). Just not recently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM I was rather dissapointed to see Mary Garvey, one of the Mudcatters I respect the most, declare: "I have never voted for a Republican in my life!" A truely open mind would find the "other" party's candidate superior once in fifty years, one might hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM John McCain was speaking truth, the truth of the Republican party when he said rich was more than five million. Those are the only people rich enough to really benefit from the Republican's national policies. Mary Garvey, Stay just the way you are. If you had voted republican for Senate, Congress or President, you'd have been voting to take money from your own pocket and put it in the hands of a millionaire. Its takes a special kind of ignorance to do that. the kind of ignorance that most Mudcatters do not have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: SharonA Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:16 AM Well, I'll be damned. Obama picked Biden. The news came out about a half-hour ago. WHAT is he thinking????? He passed Hillary over, so he just lost a LOT of support from the Hillary hangers-on AND the female voters. A guy from Delaware isn't going to attract a heck of a lot of votes -- there aren't a heck of a lot of people in Delaware! :-) As a resident of the Pennsylvania-side of the "tri-state area" (with Delaware and New Jersey), I hear Biden's name in the news often, and geeeeezzzz, the man cannot keep his mouth shut. He is going to cause Obama no end of trouble. ...which is not to say that Obama's choice is going to affect MY vote! I voted for Hillary in the primary, but I'll vote for Obama in November as the Cain't-Vote-For-McCain't candidate. ...which makes McCain't the Cain't-didate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bobert Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:30 AM Hillary would have been a lightnin' rod for the right, Shar-roonA and too of the story... Biden is safe, has real good blue collar support (think the western part of your state here) and will get under McCain's skin... As for pdq's thinkin' that McCain should pick a "uniter", it way too late for that kind of shift in strategy... MccIan's people have allready decided that their only chance to win is to divide, much the way Bush has done... Good choice... Okay, not great, but good... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: SharonA Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM Hillary would have been a lightnin' rod for the right, Shar-roonA Yeahhhh, you're right... and too of the story... Huh? Biden is safe, has real good blue collar support (think the western part of your state here) and will get under McCain's skin... It all sounds good.... as long as Biden's big mouth doesn't screw it up. As for pdq's thinkin' that McCain should pick a "uniter", it way too late for that kind of shift in strategy... MccIan's people have allready decided that their only chance to win is to divide, much the way Bush has done... Agreed. The idea is to unite to fight against Dubya-McCain't politics. Good choice... Okay, not great, but good... Not sure that there WAS a "great" choice. Still wish he would've picked a woman, but as you say Obama needs blue-collar support, and there are a lot of red necks beneath some of those blue collars. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:38 AM If he wanted a solid citizen with gravitas, foreign policy expertise, and respect of much of the country, I wonder why he didn't pick Nunn. It's obvious why he didn't pick Hillary--and he was dead right on that. Just the two-fer--with Bill--would be enough to disqualify her--and that's not even mentioning her cornucopia of extremely objectionable remarks--including that Obama is not ready to be commander in chief--and of course the "assassination" remark. After the convention he should send her and Bill back to the same audiences where they bad-mouthed him. He needs those votes. And the Democratic movers and shakers can judge by her performance there as to whether she ever deserves another chance at the presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:39 AM Biden fits in a lot of ways. I am thinking and hoping that Obama will take advantage of that big mouth to hound McCain. I'd like to see him make news every day between now and November 4 point out a different McCain mistake, misstatement or bad vote every day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,Hawkwind Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM Obama Biden, sounds like a name I heard before ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM "After the convention he should send her and Bill back to the same audiences where they bad-mouthed him." I doubt if Oh Bummer will be sending Bill and Hillary anywhere. And if he tried to, why would they go? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bill D Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM Well...we shall see, hmmm? Biden is unmatched as a foreign policy advisor, and 'seems' to have no serious skeletons in his closet. He has obviously been told to ummmm... 'restrain' his mouth. Can he...for 3 months? I trust him to be competent, but I sure hope some tricky reporter doesn't manage to bait him into an awkward remark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: GUEST,guest bankley Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:43 AM oops .....that was me....in Toronto...
seen some cool graffiti today that went.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM "... I sure hope some tricky reporter doesn't manage to bait him into an awkward remark." Let's see I we have this straight. If Biden say something wrong, rude or stupid, it's the fault of the person who asked the question. Odd, but that doesn't seem to appy evenly to all candidates, as far as I can tell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bill D Date: 23 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM No, pdq, that is NOT the point. I never said or suggested any such thing! I used the word "awkward" for a reason. It means stuff like McCain not knowing about his houses! Joe Biden likes to talk, and these days the reporters seem to try to pry at ALL the candidates with questions designed to 'make news', rather than just report news. Obama controls his mouth a bit better than most...Biden, & for that matter, McCain... a bit less. No doubt that has been 'discussed'. Now, pdq, if YOU are again just trying to 'inject humor' into a thread, you are again doing it in a heavy-handed manner. Your remark sure seems like either a slam againt ME, or against Biden, or against anyone who would just want to discuss these things from a left-of-center viewpoint. In short, you are doing to my post what I worry about someone doing to a less than carefully phrased Biden remark...twisting the meaning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM My point was this: are people equally concerned that McCain will be baited into making an awkward remark? The answer on Mudcat is, of course, that they actually hope he will. Double standard or just partisan politics? Don't matter, that's the way it is here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM I have a bad taste in my metaphorical mouth about Biden. What horrible sin did he commit, and when? Did he plagiarize Kennedy's speech writer? Say he was, or that someone else wasn't, Jack Kennedy? What am I failing to remember about him? Am I pleased with the choice? Do I care that Biden's Catholic in terms of his electability? |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:14 PM It was Lloyd Bentsen who made the retort about Jack Kennedy to Dan Quayle in a debate. Catholicism is, in my opinion, no longer an issue with the vast majority of Americans. I don't suppose Jewishness would be either. However, muslimism ... ! The charge was made that Biden plagiarized an article while in law school. Here is a Wiki article: "Within days, it was also discovered that, while a first year law student at Syracuse Law School, Biden had plagiarized a law review article in a class paper he wrote. Though the then-dean of the law school, as well as Biden's former professor, played down the incident of plagiarism, they did find that Biden drew "chunks of heavy legal prose directly from" the article in question. Biden said the act was inadvertent due to his not knowing the proper rules of citation, and Biden was permitted to retake the course after receiving a grade of F, which was subsequently dropped from his record." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM People who really want to know about this subject can look up "Neal Kinnoch and Joe Biden" on a Google search. I won't cuz I don't giva rat's p'toot about it. However, as far as rural America, this ticket does not play well at all. A complete rejection of the people who grow the crops, run the ranches, drive the trucks and keep American going. Two mouthy lawyers from the Northeast, both professional politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bobert Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM Here is what I don't get... McCain makes it a daily ritual to put hios foot in his mouth... Biden does it only on occasion... Yet the media is willin' to overlook McCain's mis-statements... I mean, this is a liitle like the uncle who shows up at family events, tells dirty jokes to the kids and everyone says "It's just Uncle Earnie being Uncle Earnie..." When did America get so dumbed down that we would allow ourselves to vote for a man who's mouth constantly goes in motion long before the brain... And in the case of misidentifying faction in Iraq, had to be pulled aside twice to be told he was mis-speaking... I don't think we need another 8 years of free-association remarks by out president... Shoot, it might take years for a friggin' ***thoughtful*** man like Obama who knows what ears are for to restore a little respect and integrity to our country... Grading "on a curve" is fine for high school but not fine for the next president... The media needs to start telling the truth about what they know about McCain... And soon!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bill D Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM If McCain picks Romney, what will you call THAT ticket? Neither one of THEM "... run the ranches, drive the trucks and keep American going." Two very rich ...blah, blah, blah.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: Bobert Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:55 PM What the heck... Make it a buck...100... |
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden From: pdq Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM I'll take a successful business man paired with a military man over a pair of mouthy lawyers. So will rural America. That don't mean they will win since cities have all the clout, but this ticket is an affront to much of the US. |
