BS: McCrash

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:27 AM

That's me point, Barry... McCain is now using his POW status to try to defend the fact that he owns 7 houses... That's a bunch of crap...

No, really... I agree with Spaw on this one... I don't want to see McCain villified for his service... I was just pointing out thw total hypocrisy of the Bushites here who delighted when it was Kerry who was getting Swiftboated who are now horror-struck that anyone would dare so the same to McCain..

That is my point...

"Dozens", Spawzer??? I'm impressed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:12 AM

I'm starting to wonder if he isn't going to the POW well a few too many times.

It's a "get out of jail" card now but if he is elected, he'll have to do things to get us out of tight situations.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:30 AM

Right on, Spaw.

Lots of veterans. Even a lot of POWs of various wars, declared and unconstitutional. Hell, I know several and some of them I wouldn't trust with a rubber spoon much less the country.

Lots of veterans, including myself. And I'm still running for President, and I'll let Bobert be VP (he can be in charge of the vice). I'm a veteran! And I promise to resign as soon as I'm qualified for the retirement benefits that go with the job.

"VOTE RAPAIRE! HE'S ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY!! (And he's a veteran AND he's got medals!)"

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

And...

VOTE BOBERT FOR VP 'cause when it comes to vices...

...he is da' man!!!

As fir the dough, yeah, any that Rap drops on the floor is mine...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: john f weldon
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM

Ha!

I don't like McCain, but I won't hold crashing against him. My Pa was a bombing instructor in WW2 and managed to blow up a local dance hall, while a dance was in progress. (Everyone survived)

What this world needs is a less competent military!   Bravo McCain, and keep those rifle bullets with the pointy part facing in!

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM

Rove should use this

McCain ad

George Bush inherited a bad economy from Bill Clinton, then 9-11 changed everything. Now McCain will be facing financial problems that might even include a crash.
"Any crash you can walk away from is a good landing"
McCain has walked away from 5 crash landings
He is the man for the times.
(show McCain in pilot uniform)

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

The motto of our library pistol shooting team is

Spitzen zeigen Vorwärts

but in fancy script.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

I'm one of the people who don't think it's at all appropriate to attempt to "swift boat" McCain as a way of striking back for what was done to Kerry. As far as I'm concerned, what was done to Kerry has nothing whatever to do with McCain, and also, if it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter who it's done to.

However, since McCain's entire campaign is about electing him president because of his record, in particular, his military record, I think that his record is fair game for scrutiny. Especially in light of the fact that he has been caught falsifying some of that record.

Personally, I'd like to know if any or all of the accidents he had that involved vehicle malfunctions were or could have been the result of carelessness or hotdogging (or lack of competence).

And I think it is entirely appropriate to examine McCain's record critically in light of what it shows us about the man. He was not a mediocre student, he was an abysmal student. He clearly wasn't considered a very good pilot (see what this article has to say about that), and he got where he is today through special treatment because of his father and grandfather.

He uses his POW status as a way of trying to deflect any critical examination of his record, but that in itself ought to raise alarms in anyone who is concerned with electing a competent and honest person for president. We shouldn't allow his having been a POW cause us to blindly accept everything he says about himself.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: olddude
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM

Last night McCain was on the Tonight Show, Jay asked him jokingly how many houses does he really own. He went into this disseration on when he was a prisoner for 5 years he didn't have a house etc etc etc ...

I respect John McCain, I don't want him or any George Bush III as President. I have had a belly full of that thank you. But to ramble on and on especially on a comedy show was way beneath him. I was embaressed to witness it and it reeks of desperation.

Not the McCain I saw from years past ... and way beneath the John McCain people knew as a Maverick. He caved to the system.
God Speed Obama, God Speed

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:24 PM

In the 1972 campaign, Nixon was hammering McGovern for being weak because of his stance on ending the war in Vietnam. McGovern was a decorated WWII combat veteran. When asked why he didn't use his military record as a way of defending those kinds of attacks against him, McGovern said he wouldn't do that because "it would be unseemly".

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM

I need to correct that last one...


In the 1972 campaign, Nixon was hammering McGovern for being weak because of his stance on ending the war in Vietnam. McGovern was a decorated WWII combat veteran. When asked why he didn't use his military record as a way of defending himself against those kinds of attacks against him, McGovern said he wouldn't do that because "it would be unseemly".

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,frogprince, on Martha's Vineyard
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Joe said it all in a few words:

"It wasn't right when they smeared Kerry's military record, and it's not right to do it to McCain."

Two piles of filthy crap can never be boiled down to one gram of decency or integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

I'm with Carole on McFly's military record. If we had voted on what wasn't known about Bush the flunky might never had gotten the job. He & McFly have way to much in common on their military fronts. Poor at whatever they put their hands to, fathers that could & did cover their asses with TP, records that they'd love to hide, both thought themselves hot shots, both flyers with no claim to fame. McFly does have one up on the Brush, it was a good thing he was sidelined for 5 yrs. With 5 wrecks in 20 hrs worth of flying time what damage he could have done in 5 yrs is likely to have cost the US the war, McFly wants to try again & win this one??? Don't let him fly take him out of the driver's seat, now.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash CARTOONS
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Senator how many planes have you crashed?
I'll have my staff get back to you on that.

Senator how many homes do you have?
I'll have to get my staff to give you a call

Senator do you suffer from staph infections?
I'll have my staff get back to you.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

There's a big difference between smearing and asking legitimate questions. I'm against smearing, but I think asking legitimate questions is our responsibility as voters.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 03:49 AM

For heaven's sake, McCain's alleged "incident" took place in 1967, 40 years ago - when McCain was 31 years old. To use that as any sort of basis for judgment, is as absurd as using Kerry's 35-yr-old Vietnam record in 2004. Certainly, those admirable service records gave them an advantage in their careers and helped to place them in privileged positions, but what have they done with those advantages in the last ten or twenty years? Are you going to get all upset if they smoked marijuana forty years ago? Want to question their marriages and divorces? How is that pertinent to their ability to serve their country as President in 2009, such a long time later?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM

I think that aptitude, intelligence, and competence (as well as character) are definitely things that we need to be concerned with. And we also ought to be aware, at least, of how McCain was able to do the things he did (preferential treatment, like Bush received, as opposed to his own abilities and efforts). Just as we were right to be concerned with Bush's history of that period in his life - his record as a student, the way he got the advantages he had, his lack of competence, etc.)

Also, if a person's character is impulsive and they are a risk taker or a thrill seeker by nature, this is also something we would want to take into consideration when we decide who we want to be our next president. After all, he will have his finger on the nuclear button. His past history alone can't tell us that about him, but his past history combined with how he has lived his life since then can.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: kendall
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:14 PM

Joe, if he is going to stand on his military record, he opens the door, and it is fair to question it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM

Do you want this man's finger on the nuclear button?

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button
By Phillip Butler, Military.com
Posted on August 21, 2008, Printed on August 29, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/95825/

John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States.

When I was a Plebe (4th classman, or freshman) at the Naval Academy in 1957-58, I was assigned to the 17th Company for my four years there. In those days we had about 3,600 midshipmen spread among 24 companies, thus about 150 midshipmen to a company. As fortune would have it, John, a First Classman (senior) and his room mate lived directly across the hall from me and my two room mates. Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President!

John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion he took me with him to escape "over the wall" in the dead of night. He had a taxi cab waiting for us that took us to a bar some 7 miles away. John had a few beers, but forbid me to drink (watching out for me I guess) and made me drink cokes. I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates.

People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 1/2 years later, so he was a POW for 5 1/2 years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW.

John's treatment as a POW:

1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals.

2) John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case -- new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda.

3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.

4) John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor -- 8, Service Crosses -- 42, Silver Stars -- 590, Bronze Stars -- 958 and Purple Hearts -- 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many -- not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe.

John McCain served his time as a POW with great courage, loyalty and tenacity. More than 600 of us did the same. After our repatriation a census showed that 95% of us had been tortured at least once. The Vietnamese were quite democratic about it. There were many heroes in North Vietnam. I saw heroism every day there. And we motivated each other to endure and succeed far beyond what any of us thought we had in ourselves. Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did.

I furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate.

Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60's and 70's. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John's age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years.

I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button.

It is also disappointing to see him take on and support Bush's war in Iraq, even stating we might be there for another 100 years. For me John represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies of Washington-as-usual. The past 7 years have proven to be disastrous for our country. And I believe John's views on war, foreign policy, economics, environment, health care, education, national infrastructure and other important areas are much the same as those of the Bush administration.

I'm disappointed to see John represent himself politically in ways that are not accurate. He is not a moderate Republican. On some issues he is a maverick. But his voting record is far to the right. I fear for his nominations to our Supreme Court, and the consequent continuing loss of individual freedoms, especially regarding moral and religious issues. John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be.

Senator John Sidney McCain, III is a remarkable man who has made enormous personal achievements. And he is a man that I am proud to call a fellow POW who "Returned With Honor." That's our POW motto. But since many of you keep asking what I think of him, I've decided to write it out. In short, I think John Sidney McCain, III is a good man, but not someone I will vote for in the upcoming election to be our President of the United States.



Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals. After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace.

© 2008 Military.com All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/95825/

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

The incident on the Forrestal might be an urban legend. Then again, it might be another
cover-up. G.W. Bush's drying out in San Diego when he was supposed to be campaining for Blount in Alabama is a case in point.

You see what you got with Bush. You want the same with McCain?

This "war hero" bombed innnocent civilians in Vietnam.