BS: Joe the Plumber

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:33 PM

Funny thing... McCain says the dems are the ones exploiting JtP but JtP seems to be the star that MCain has affixed his political future???

Fact is stranger than fiction???

Beam me up, Scotty...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:47 PM

mg, my dad was a welder, after growing up as a cattle rancher. He had to go to school and get licensed before he could sell his skills as a welder. My son is a HVAC specialist who had to take tests and get all kinds of licensing, etc. before he could get his job. My new son-in-law, the same thing as a concrete finisher aka artist. They were all three willing and able to take the time to learn, follow the guidelines, and guarantee their work as good and dependable. My dad had an eighth grade school education, but through reading all of his life and his very well-read parents and grandparents, he was as smart, well-read, and articulate as any college professor. My dad would not think much of JtS, I can assure you, neither would my grandparents.

ON another note, I heard last night that someone has already bought the domain name "joe the plumber." IF the guy was a real plumber, I think there might be a case made for him getting the domain name; as it is, that would be a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

A couple of decades ago, there was a guy doing a lot of work in the coop apartment in which my wife and I live. Apparently the co-op board didn't check this guy's credentials. He did such a lousy job in our bathroom that I fired him and hired someone else. I won't go into the lurid details, but suffice it to say that he also did some work for the woman who lived two floors above us. A couple of months afterward, the hot water pipe to her bathtub let go and flooded the two apartments below with hot water. We were having dinner with friends, and when got home, we found our apartment door open and discovered that several of our neighbors were our apartment and were trying to clean up the mess.

Wallpaper hanging loose off the walls, plasterboard on the ceiling dangling in big chunks, carpets soaking wet, several pieces of furniture ruined beyond repair. . . .

The same thing in our upstairs neighbor's apartment. The two apartments below the third floor apartment were inundated.

The licensed plumber who fixed the offending bathtub pipe said that the guy had not used the correct connector and had "improvised." I believe he mentioned something about duct tape!

It cost us a bundle to fix the damage. The "plumber" himself had disappeared, but we found out that he fancied himself an "independent contractor" and didn't have any of the required licenses, either plumbing or electrical.

Sue? How? He had moved out of state and no one knew where he'd gone.

No bloody sympathy on my part!

Mary, you wouldn't go to a doctor who worked without the legally required licenses or training, would you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM

Well, there ain't too much to plumbin' these days... Used to be that you had to pack cast iron hubs with horse hair and then put a band around 'em and then pour liquidfied led that you heated over a little gas furnace... No more... Just a little sandin', primer and glue...

The rest of it is purdy straight forward... Hot on the left, cold on the right and, well, everyone knows the rest...

No if JtP couldn't figure that out then it's no wonder that he's voting fir McCain... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

I am voting for people to have licenses. I think it is the best way to go. Let's encourage all of the people to get their licenses.      I hire them. I prefer them. I'm just not going to throw him off the bridge. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

Throw him off the bridge? No, McCain already did that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

Personally I think he jumped off that bridge his little old self. Lie on national TV and someone's bound to point it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

I think there are some assumptions being made here that if they are not true, I certainly would call slander, and I think they would interfere with him and his boss earning a livelihood.

I haven't heard it said that he was illegally operating as a plumber without a license. If that is so, he should be shut down until he can get a license. If he is defrauding people by stating he has a license, he should be prosecuted. If it is just that it is generally better to have a license, that people are well-advised to preferentially hire people with licenses, no argument here. It is better. There are other circumstances...many financial...many educational...I don't know why he doesn't have a license. It sounds like he was at least operating under the assumption, for many years (years when it seems the boss would have been shut down at some point) that he was legal at least in parts of the township or whatever they have. I don't know. If he is doing something crooked, throw the book at him. If he is an honest working man, who might have skills that most of us could never acquire (I don't know..maybe he just unclogs toilets day and night)..he should be encouraged to get his license etc. etc. I personally think twice before doing or stating anything in a very public forum that comes between a man/woman and a job.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:15 PM

My problem with "Joe the Plumber" is that he created a fiction about how he would be impacted by Obama's tax plan. In his fiction, he could possibly be hurt by the plan. But in his real life situation, he would be helped a lot by Obama's plan.

Joe said that the company he wants to buy nets more than 250,000. It does not. It nets around 100,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:21 PM

well then it should be that much easier for him to buy.

I doubt that he deliberately created a fiction. A whole lot of people can't figure out tax stuff and I bet he is one of them. He needs a financial adviser for sure. If he knowingly created a fiction, he would have figured out that someone would expose it instantly. I think he spoke in good faith, and made errors in calculation, perhaps based on philosophy more than sitting down with a calculator or a spreadsheet. We still need to respect and support out tradespeople and encourage them to get the proper training and licensing, and remove as many obstacles to doing so as possible.

One thing that is a barrier is just lack of English sometimes. Other problems are transportation, child care, lack of money, lack of time. All sorts of reasons other than BEING BAD for someone not to get his or her license. I don't know. When I know I shall make a pronouncement as to whether he is guilty or innocent. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

I don't think Joe the Plumber is being libeled or slandered here. The comments people are making are based on information available so far, and I'm quite sure whatever the facts are, they will soon be clarified. But there is one fact we know:   John McCain dragged Joe into the fray by trying to erroneously characterize Obama's tax policies, and it looks like the ploy backfired on several counts.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:31 PM

"I haven't heard it said that he was illegally operating as a plumber without a license."

mg, all you have to do is look at the information posted at the beginning of this thread. The licensing board in his county confirmed that he is not licensed as a plumber there. Use the state of Ohio's link to the construction industry's trades people, and you will see he does not come up as a licensed plumber in Ohio.

He is not helping out legitimate trades people by spouting off the stuff he is saying about being against social security, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:43 PM

Do Americans use the term "cowboy" in this context?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:52 PM

Me thinks that JtP has been groomed as McCain's "October Surprise"... Problem is is that JtP has bombed... License or no license, McCain wished he'd never heard of JtP... But now he has wedded himself to JtP... Seems appropriate seein' as every trick that McCain has pulled off so far looked like Wylie Coyote trying yet gain to out wit the Road Runner...

In the words of the phophet: He who sleeps with the plumber wakes up smellin' like _______...

Know what I mean, Vern???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:20 PM

The reality is that Obama's tax plan will make it easier for Joe the Plumber to buy that business. That's the whole point.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:22 PM

No, he did create a fiction. He flat out lied about how much the business he wants to by nets yearly. That's just an out and out lie. He has no business saying the company nets more than $250,000 if he doesn't know how much it nets. He was deliberately lying just to make Obama's tax plan look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:24 PM

I just want to weigh in on this a bit. I got out of dental school and had to pay back over $350,000 while trying to put three kids plus my wife through college. I built a business on a shoestring, built it up over 25 years, put all my family through college, paid every damn dime that I owed, pay more than my share of taxes every year, pay about $25,000 per year into charities, have 7 full-time employees and 3 part-time employees that each make at the top of their wage scale, and yes, by God, I make and earn over $250,000 per year.
I am not ashamed to say it, I am proud of the fact that I pulled myself up by the bootstraps, never whined when things didn't go my way, never expected a damn penny that I didn't earn, and more than anything, I lived within my means and didn't spend money I didn't have to spend. I am certainly not alone. I know hundreds of people who are in my same economic catagory. I could pull back, work less, let half my staff go, and cruise for the next ten years below $250,000 but I have an obligation to the family I have at work, my staff who come to work every day for me and give me their best because they KNOW I give them mine.

I work hard, don't take time off when I have a headache or a runny nose or just don't feel good.   My staff has the exact work ethic. This, my friends, is the state of the small businesses that run the economy. Do I want to "Share the wealth?" Hell yes, I share the wealth all the time, by discounting or writing off bills to people who are struggling, by buying groceries and baby clothes for patients who we know are in financial troubles. I give to every worthy cause that I identify as truly worthy. I have helped my staff above and beyond their salaries so much they have such a loyalty to me,they would do anything for me. Do I want to delegate this sharing of the wealth? Who in the hell is in a better position than I am to be a steward? NO one! I guarantee my sharing of the wealth, dollar-for-dollar is better spent than anyone else would ever do with my money.
Go on, laugh, ridicule criticise, make some attempt to undermine my philosophy of what I know and believe as true compassionate Conservatism. Sorry to get on a rant, but it is about time that you are at least made aware of a different way of thinking than Iever see here in this community os supposedly "liberal thinkers."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Those are some sterling accomplishments.

However, the tax cuts of the last eight years have disproportionately benefited the upper tax brackets. And I didn't see any complaints when the redistribution of wealth was moving in the other direction (from the bottom to the top).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:33 PM

No, McGrath, America has real cowboys who are hard working laborers in the agriculture industry. It is not a pejorative. When you say cowboy in the USA, people think of good guys who work hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:41 PM

I don't complain either way. I simply put my head down, shut the hell up, and work my ass off. It is how I do it. I don't sit around whining because life isn't fair. It works well, I would recommend the technique. It works for anyone who tries it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:41 PM

Thanks Alice, for the last post, I am a cowboy!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:50 PM

yippee for cowboys!

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:14 PM

I think the suggestion that people who are working to get a candidate elected who represents our interests are "whining" is about as elitist as it is possible to be.

We work hard, too. We own our own small business and neither one of us has any health insurance. And we can't get it because of pre-existing conditions. We are both above 50 and this could become a life and death issue for us in the not too distant future. To accuse us of whining because we are working to get a candidate elected who will work for us and not for a small few at the top, I find rather telling, and quite frankly, it surprises me because I had thought much better of the person making that accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:14 PM

I think the definitive information on Joe the Plumber was presented on Saturday Night Live. The impersonators have been so good during this campaign, that's I'm starting to forget what was said by the candidates, and what by Saturday Night Live.
I'm ready to vote for Tina Fey.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

If you are referring to ME as making that accusation, Sorry you feel like that. If you want to call me an elitist fine. If you want to work hard to get a candidate elected, fine, but my approach is to not hang my success and future on the relative accomplishments or promises of any political candidate. I am a believer in making your own breaks.
I am sympathetic to anyone who has healthcare issues. The point I was trying to make ans still am trying to make is the concept of "Let's share the wealth, " is simply one person wanting something I worked hard to get and feeling like they are "owed it;" simply because I have it and they don't.

As an aside, I will, however, vow that if Mr. Obama is elected president, I will give him my full support, and never, never be disrespectful to him. He will be my president. I was raised to respect my president. Sounds hokey, huh? just another middle America quirky belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:33 PM

They're taking the hard earned money of those of us who make less than $250,000, too. We work hard and don't expect a handout. We just want the system not to be stacked against us, as it is now. When we pay our taxes to our government (and we pay plenty), we want that money to be used in a way that benefits us as well as the people at the top. Right now, it's mostly going to benefit the people at the top.

What we want is for the redistribution of wealth that's been going on for the last eight year and more, in which our hard earned tax money is going to make other people richer at our expense, to stop. We want the system to work for us, too.

We're not whining when we express dissatisfaction at the way things are set up now. To say that we are is an insult based on ignorance of what other people are experiencing. Especially the implied assumption that people like us aren't also working hard, and that we expect a handout. That kind of condescension is what I'm talking about when I use the word "elitist". And the shoe does appear to fit, I'm sorry to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:00 PM

mg, you said "I doubt that he deliberately created a fiction. A whole lot of people can't figure out tax stuff and I bet he is one of them." Well watching him yesterday spouting off about issues other than taxes he looked as out of touch and misinformed as lots of other people. I am not always myself. But I believe he did create a fiction on purpose, and watching him yesteday, I think he was damn well enjoying himself....until later in the day when the negative stuff came out. I have no sympathy for him for acting informed, but acutally not being. I have no sympathy for him for the damage that this may do to him in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:17 PM

"He will be my president. I was raised to respect my president. Sounds hokey, huh? just another middle America quirky belief. "

There is a HUGE difference between respect and blind faith, and that is where the line gets blurred for some people. EVERY president is my president, but they are also MY servant as they are elected to SERVE the population.   I will question Obama just as hard as any other president.

Question authority - another quirky American belief - left, center or middle America.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:25 PM

From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

No one looks good in this one, mg. Joe the Plumber for whatever reason told a fib to Obama and it was caught on tape.

But Sinsull, Dear Sinsull..Didn't you know 'fibbing' is held in high esteem in this country....and honored during election campaigns???

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:33 PM

It is every "Real American's" duty to bitch, whine, moan and demand that the US government do something about how unfair their favorite retailer and largest importer, Walmart is, how US Jobs are going offshore and how much gas their foreign made SUV burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM

Poppagator hit the nail on the head and smacked it flush.
"Joe is typical of a large number of right-leaning American voters who have been regularly voting against their own economic interests for a number of interrelated reasons encouraged by the neoconservative propaganda machine".

Here's a guy who makes 40K a year, yet he's upset about Obama taxing guys making 250K?
Here's a guy who had a lien put on his house because he couldn't pay medical bills?
In many ways, this guy typifies the Blue Collar Republican who has been brain-washed by talk radio and W's patriotic scare tactics, who would benefit by nothing MORE than Obama's tax cuts, and a national health care program. If I were Obama, I would turn this Joe Plumber affair around and point out every way in which he would actually be helping him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:57 PM

From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM

In many ways, this guy typifies the Blue Collar Republican who has been brain-washed by talk radio and W's patriotic scare tactics, who would benefit by nothing MORE than Obama's tax cuts,

Obama's tax 'CUTS'?????????????????????????????????????????????

In many ways, this guy (EJ),has been brain-washed by talk radio and the news media.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:06 AM

Obama's plan will cut my taxes. A lot more than McCain's plan will. And our business won't have to pay capital gains taxes. And our business will get a 50% tax credit for providing our employees (that's the two of us) with health care benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:47 AM

You should read Wikipedia on the two names - and the discussion pages - as there is a bunfight on about whether this guy - under either name - is 'notable'. Lots of 'verified links' too...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:25 AM

can someone please provide some direct quotes about how he mentioned the 250,000.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/15/1550438.aspx

I have been googling for some time and can't find anywhere he said he would net 250K, only that the proposed company could bring in 250K. I personally would not think, in a spontaneous, brief interview as opposed say to a presidential debate..that he was insisting that was net. If I heard someone wanted a plumbing business that brought in 250K I would think..is that after trucks and insurance and salaries and rent and unused inventory etc....

So could someone please say exactly what he said and did he ever specifically say net vs. gross or are people just reading that into it?

Surely people must know because they sure seem to know what his motives and everything else are. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:30 AM

People can hear him saying it himself right here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:35 AM

I listened to what he said on youtube..not an exact quote but something like I am looking to buy a company that brings in about 250, 270 to 280 thousand a year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Does that say net? Profit? That he would pay 250K for it? I think in subsequent interviews he mentioned the boss wanting to retire..probably will now I would guess...people are freaking at the thought someone making 40K could buy a 250K business....people are starting businesses all the time. Do they not want people to be able to buy businesses? This could be like the son the boss never had and they could work something easily out..happens all the time.

I am disgusted and appalled by the way people are trying to bring this man down. Obama was fine with him I thought, but the smears against this man, that his child is of course going to be affected by, are ruthless.

I have read, someone please confirm, that the taxes he owes are Ohio state taxes, and not IRS. I have also read it was because of medical reasons. I have not read other than here that it was because he has an anti-tax philosophy and was a refusenik. COuld someone please confirm if he has refused to pay taxes, or if he is in arrears for other reason, such as a divorce, expenses with his son, health reasons or what. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:35 AM

If the company didn't net more than $250,000, the owner would not have his taxes raised under Obama's plan. The reason Mr. the Plumber used the figure of more than $250,000 net was to show that he would be hurt by Obama's plan. He doesn't use the word, "net". He uses the word, "makes". The money that is "made" by a company is its net profits.

A company doesn't "make money", for instance, if it loses money, even if it takes in a lot of money, but all of it goes back out as expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:40 AM

How do you know his reason? I saw the youtube and have seen various things on TV and I don't know his reason. What do you know that I don't? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:48 AM

He said that Obama's tax plan would raise his taxes. He said it himself. Since the business isn't making more than $250,000, he was lying when he said that it is. Now what reason would he have for telling that particular lie if it wasn't to show that he would be hurt by Obama's tax plan?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:09 AM

I doubt it is a lie. He could be financially deluded. He could be financially ignorant, as are many small-business people.   As are many tradeswomen who have perfected their work skills but often have no business savy at all. I read some Dun and Bradstreet quote that mentioned $500K gross. I don't know. I don't say that people are lying unless I know. I don't say I know what they are thinking unless I know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:28 AM

Obama will have to raise taxes, to even begin to afford his programs. and, if you aren't smart enough to see this very obvious fact, then you'll probably be eagerly awaiting to cast your vote for him, and no amount of common sense will even phase you. Even during the last debate, in a quick clip, he is caught on camera, saying, 'Well I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes'... or something to that effect, its there. It's when the camera is breaking away, and he is shifting positions in his chair...not that it means anything to anybody. Voters for Obama are doing it out of emotional optimism. Voters for McCain arejust trying to stay with what they have gotten use to, and Obama poses too much of a threat to their 'acquired comfort zone'.

Oh well, if it wasn't for these two, the news would have to go back to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. Thank you, George Bush, for lying to us, and being the kind of guy that just let the country fall apart...you could have done better, but you just fell apart instead of doing what your conscience knew to do right.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:21 AM

Actually, Sanity-Clause, the sad thing is W really couldn't have done much better. He just doesn't have it in him. He is the picture of a guy who is in way over his head...
Sort of like you in this argument. Here's a comparison of the McCain and Obama tax plans as they stand

Democrats are for Big Government, right? Check the growth of the government under George W
Republicans are for fiscal responsibility, right? That's a laugh.

Yeah Barack said he should pay more taxes, and he's right. Just like John McCain should pay more taxes, just like your hero on the Excellence in Broadcasting network should pay more taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:26 AM

If Joe the Plumber has no business savvy, I think it's a bit of a stretch to believe that he is seriously thinking about buying a business that makes more than $250,000 a year. The man is a fraud, and he got caught. And he's been milking his 15 minutes of fame for all he could get out of it. He doesn't need our sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:28 AM

Obama said he's going to raise taxes. But not on people making less than $250,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

EJ, Dear ol' chap, you're jumping to conclusions. You are assuming I like McCain, and Rush...or I'm some kind of neo-con....lighten up, take a red, I'm neither. But I WILL call a spade a spade. It has become patently obvious that both these candidates are lying sacks of elephant shit....and the other is just too old..truth is, nobody worth a mayfly fart is running on the two main parties

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:34 AM

Those are harsh words, and when taken collectively with other words on blogs, editorials, etc., can very well contribute to a man being deprived of his livelihood. Why should America tremble? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

My words are harsh? I'm not calling for him to be fired from his job. The only thing I'm calling for is for people to be aware that this man does not represent someone who would be hurt by Obama's tax plan, and that, in fact, he would be helped by Obama's tax plan. Not only now, but in the future because Obama's tax plan will help him save enough money to buy the business, if that's really what he wants to do.

I think it's Joe the Plumber's words that are harsh. He's trying to persuade people to vote against their own economic interests. For this reason, he doesn't deserve to be taken seriously by any voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:47 AM

If every employer was like jimmyt, it'd be a much better world. But too many of them aren't. They pay their employees as little as they can get away with, and take as much as they can for themselves, and that's called good business practice. And the difference between the amount creamed off by the people at the top and the amount paid to the people at the bottom gets wider and wider.
...................

I think people focussing their attention on the actual facts and non-facts about this Joe are aiming well off target. No doubt there are some cases where what he was on about does apply - cases where through hard work someone from a modest background is hoping to be able to take over a business which will make enough profit to be affected by taxes more than he'd prefer.

Perhaps Joe was bending the truth to make a more effective question, perhaps he was genuinely mistaken, but so what - he's not a politician up for election or up on a witness stand.

The fact that it sounds as if Joe wasn't actually strictly accurate is only relevant in so far as it means McCain's attempt to personalise that through invoking his name is absurd. And that's the phoniness on which people should be focussing their attention, together with arguing as to whether the tax issue involved is one where Obama's proposals are wrong. Which doesn't actually sound to be significantly the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM

"Those are harsh words, and when taken collectively with other words on blogs, editorials, etc., can very well contribute to a man being deprived of his livelihood. Why should America tremble? "

You are living in a fantasy world MG. No one is "harming" this guy, and the words are not harsh - they are stating facts. I guess if you cannot deal with facts you retreat into your own sense of reality.

The bottom line is, Joe the Plumber has some issues that he needs to work on. No one is bringing him down, most people are rooting for him to succeed as we would any small business person. In this case, Joe is still climbing uphill and the only roadblocks are the ones he creates for himself.

Wake up MG!!!