BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 09:02 AM

http://news.aol.co.uk/boy-13-may-not-be-babys/article/20090215070826311857017 Seems there are other candidates for the paternal role

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 09:47 AM

They are only children themselves. Something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line. Where was the sex education for them both? and where is their self respect? They have lost their childhoods, when they should be out hanging with friends, taking up hobbies etc they will be changing nappies and having sleepless nights. I think it's very sad and I don't agree with it but I hope they get the help they need for the sake of the child.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:30 AM

What is the legal position about these children being identified in the media?
Had they mugged someone, their identities would have been protected.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

I see some big black pots calling the little kettles black.
Are you all pretending that you sex outside of marriage is a sin? or only wrong for young teenagers?

It seems the suggestion is that the sex was OK but getting pregnant was not.

Barry has it right. Kids experiment. So do adults. Sometimes the result is a child, sometimes wanted/sometimes not. Once again, I will say that if the child is loved and cared for, it is no one's business but their own. The publicity seems to have come from the family maybe in hopes of getting some money out of it. Certainly, this is not the first child born to a young teenager. Posts above prove that.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

Well I certainly didnt experiment I waited till I found the one man in my life I married him and this is us into our 26th year.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

Megan,
I can (but won't) name several 'Catters who have posted to this thread who did experiment and did have children that were "unexpected". It happens. And it happens with very young teenagers. It has happened with very young teenagers for centuries.

Claiming that society is falling apart or pretending that self respect is the issue is ludicrous. Read what Georgiansilver has posted above. Do a search on 'Catters who have adopted children. "Unexpected" teenage pregnancies with no medical follow up until the birth are the source for many of these babies. Add to that a young mother with no concept of childcare who keeps the baby until it is no longer "cute' then dumps it into the foster care system. This birth is not the end of society as we know it as long as the child is cared for properly.

I am far more concerned about an adult with six children who is artificially inseminated with octuplets, brought to term, and then announces that she can't support the children she has never mind the eight new ones and their concurrent medical bills. To me, this is criminal behavior not the careless experimentaion of a 12 year old.

Rant over.
I was not belittling monogamy. I was questioning the holier than thou attitude of some who have posted. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

Sorry Sinsull I am not on top form today was up most of the night with upset tum. You are right My mum always said fowk in glass hosses shouldny play fitba.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM

No problem Meg. There is a bug going through my office guaranteed to take off ten pounds in two days. I can't wait... Hope you feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM

The only way to keep kids from having sex is to remove their genitalia when they're born and give 'em back on their eighteenth birthdays.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

I'm not taking an holier than thou attitude. I just think it is sad that this has happened. The kids may or may not have known what they are doing and the result is an innocent baby. I really do hope that they get the help to learn to be parents and bring the child up. I don't think the child should be removed from the parents however young they are unless they are totally incapable of looking after it and have no support network. I do think the sex education these days needs to be up to date so that kids are not clueless about what can happen should they experiment at an early age.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:52 PM

Yes, it's always good to use protection against not just pregnancy, but also venereal diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Yes I agree but there has to be the education programme there in place. I remember we had quite a good sex ed at high school both in science class and in PSE lessons, everything was covered and we had a very good teacher that wasn't embarrassed. I think parents should educate their children too and not leave it all to schools.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Rapunzel
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM

Education is key.

I was educated in a Roman Catholic secondary school in the 1980s. Our Religious Studies teacher had the excellent sense to regularly tell us "If you break rule number 1, please be sure to break rule number 2 as well!"
In other words, if you do have sex outside marriage/under age, then for goodness sake use contraception.

I don't know of any kids in my year who were pregnant before we left school, but I'm sure they weren't all waiting to have sex.

Meanwhile, in this case, what's done is done, lessons need to be learned, but there is no mileage in laying blame.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM

I think I educated my kids too well - son aged 21 & daughter aged 28 and not a grandchild in sight...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

There are very clear guidelines for PSHE education in the UK, but unfortunately they are not yet a statutary part of the curriculum so schools teach as much or as little as they like. Consultation has taken place but there has not yet been a decision made as to whether it should be compulsory or not.
In my experience as a teacher of PSHE education for many years, the vast majority of young people in this country are very much more aware of the facts and consequences associated with relationships than people of their parents' generation.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:48 PM

Of course, education is key, but using what one learns in school is even more important, though no one can force another to protect against pregnancy, not even a spouse or lover.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM

I have a cousin born with congenital syphilis. Dad was screwing around; Mom did not know. The child suffers from associated mental disabilities.

To get back on subject: If adults who know and understand the consequences don't take precautions, why would anyone expect a child operating on impulse to?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

I meant to add: with or without sex education.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

Especially if you are under the impression that you can't get pregnant - 'the first time', 'standing up', 'before your voice breaks', 'during your period' or any number of other myths...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Cool Beans
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

There really is an old British folk song about the very subject: "Lang A-Growing," sung by Ewan MacColl, Liam Clancy and others. The final verse begins:
In his twelfth year he was a married man
And in his thirteenth he had gotten her a son...

So much for (A) The moral deterioration of these kids today and (B) A folk song yet to be written. It's been done.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

e had quite a good sex ed at high school both in science class and in PSE lessons, everything was covered

If everything was covered, how could you learn much?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

You realise that the basis of this thread is a newspaper article, and associated news media splashes?
Since when did we start believing what we read in the newspapers?
Especially the so called 'Red tops'
So it is all based on information given by someone/some organisation, with an 'agenda'.
It is never a good idea to make judgements based on partial information, and I can bet none of us know the full story.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:45 PM

I never read it in the papers, It was on the ITV television news. Has all the television news channels got it wrong ? I doubt it.

The full story is all over the media. The families are all saying the same story. Please tell us what else you require to believe this story.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, that's an interesting analogy -
"An analogy here:

In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more"


Could it be that we missed the 'Safe smoking' classes in school? ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM

I would say, 'read Mark Twain', but as you haven't even read my post properly, it would seem like a superfluous piece of advice.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

John, you said "Since when did we start believing what we read in the newspapers?"

I saw the story on television. I know I am getting on a bit, but incidents like this should not get the "social cuddle" treatment.

We are losing the fabric of society and when someone of my age speaks up I am told to shut up. I would charge the families with neglect, take the child into care and if the father of the child is a minor I would put him into a carehome. You may say that's harsh, but it would send out a message that the government hasn't lost the will to deal with crime, whatever you call it, it's crime.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

Crime? Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:23 PM

"In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

"Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

"Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more"


"Could it be that we missed the 'Safe smoking' classes in school? ;-)) " Nickhere

Let me elucidate, K?

Smoking when I thought of it as a rebellion was one thing

Smoking when I realized that I was harming only myself was a different thing entirely

Trying to avoid pregnancy is one thing

Trying to avoid sexually transmitted disease is another thing entirely.

Safe sex typically involves a condom.

Sex while wearing a condom rarely results in pregnancy

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

In the UK it is a crime to have sex with a minor. In the UK it is a crime to neglect and child. Is it not the same wherever you live ?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM

In the US it is a crime to have sex with a minor. When you yourself are a minor it becomes a different issue.

Abuse and neglect of a child? Come on. You should know that in the US we approve of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:35 PM

"In the UK it is a crime to have sex with a minor."

Even if you are a minor? No, it's not the same where I live - at least, it's not a crime for minors to engage with each other in consensual sexual activity, as far as I've ever heard. Is that really a crime in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:50 AM

In England and Wales and Northern Ireland the same laws apply to heterosexual and homosexual activity and offences can be committed by anyone, male or female, over the age of 10, which is the age of criminal responsibility.

It is an offence to intentionally engage in sexual touching with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15.    'Touching' covers all physical contact, including touching with any part of the body, with anything else and through anything, for example, through clothing. It includes penetration.

A person aged 18 or over is liable to up to 14 years imprisonment for this offence.   A person under the age of 18 is liable to up to 5 years imprisonment.   A person may claim in their defence that they believed the young person to be over 16.

Intentional sexual touching of a young person under 13 is an absolute offence. This means there can be no defence in such a case that it was believed the person was over 16. Sexual touching which involves penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by the penis or penetration of the vagina or anus with a part of the body or any object is punishable by up to life imprisonment.    Sexual touching not involving penetration is punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM

The best 'sex education' I got was in second year juniors! The kids were'nt embarrassed the teachers weren't embarrassed. We all found it very interesting. I remember learning that when a man and a lady 'make love' - at this point we illustrated our work with generally ananomically accurate drawings of nudey men and ladies lying together, cuddling or something :-) - then the lady grows a baby in her tummy. Can't remember the precise details about what it was the man was supposed to put into the lady, or where... In fact I don't think I've quite figured out the 'correct' procedures regarding that particular bit, yet myself. Which isn't helped much, by the fact that they seem to want to put it in allkinds of funny places!

Seriously though, my best friend at school was having sex at twelve with an eighteen year old boy. She was quite a sporty, confident girl. It all seemed like nothing much to me, back then, though now of course, I might see things somewhat differently...
And while she didn't get pregnant, I do recall another girl leaving school around age fourteen to have a child.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:04 AM

Saw the young parents on the news this morning and the boy does look very young indeed. The morning breakfast shows have been talking about sex ed and the reforms that are needed but parents need to take a role in educating their children too but I can understand them being embarrassed by it.

Schools need to promote sexual health and where teenagers can go to get themselves checked out and stress that it's nothing to be ashamed of to look after yourself. When I've started new relationships I've always got checked out because you can never be sure where the person has been before you or indeed where your exes have been. Luckily all tests came back negative. But I had an excellent education from school and parents.

The young mum will have been given a full STI check up as part of her ante natal care as it is standard practice these days if you have a baby on the NHS.

Like I've said before and others have said education is the key. These young parents are very nieve (sp?) and have to grow up too quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:22 AM

Sad thing about it is other kids will probably now see a way to become famous.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM

what about the parents of the 13 and 15 year old? one person said that the boys father is useless

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

Presumably the usual doli incapax rules would apply in the UK ie a conclusive presumption of innocence if the perp is under 10 (or is it 10 or under?) and a rebuttable presumption of innocence to the age of 14.

As far as I recollect when I was 12 or 14 we were all groping furiously or wishing that we were, and a sizeable and much envied minority were having sex - most of that minority (ie the active under 14s) being female.

It is usually useless to try to change human nature by prohibition or legislation.

I get quite vexed by those who want to prevent sex without some magic mantra.

I am convinced that the biggest cause of mental health problms in later life is the lack of a happy sex life. That is what we should be educating or preparing children to achieve, once they are capable of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM

Actually the reason some of my first sexual experiences were not shit, was probably down to the fact that my partner had stored away information on good sexual 'technique' from his sex ed. teacher - who had given the boys in his class explicit and detailed instructions on the right way to do it in order to make a woman 'happy'.

I think they even discussed stuff like rimming... A subject I sure never learned about in the classroom!

With the amount of rubbish porn out there on the internet that boys in particular will be accessing all the time, some 'realistic' sex instruction with boys, would probably be of benefit to the *girls* they then sleep with.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

The mechanism of human sexuality is less determined by its biological function as it is by ensuring that human behaviour is such that procreation will, upon occasion, take place. Somewhere, no doubt, there will be statistics showing the proportion of instances of heterosexual intercourse that result in conception - and those that don't. Not only will this prove fascinating reading, but will effectively give the lie to the somewhat perverse notion that sexual intercourse is somehow about procreation and is, therefore, somehow natural to that end (the further implication being that homosexual intercourse is unnatural and therefore an abomination in the eyes of God).

The reality is such that we can effectively divorce sexual intercourse from procreation to the extent where the two things have nothing to do with one another in any sense that is other than purely coincidental. The impulse to make love, is not the impulse to procreate, and procreation is merely a random and by no means inevitable (or welcome) by-product of a procedure which is of far greater significance to the human cause than procreation will ever be.

*

I posted the above elsewhere, but feel it has relevance here in underlining the central hypocrisy of our oxymoronic system of sex education which bypasses the reality of human sexual behaviour by several light-years - at least it certainly did in my day (Nuffield Book 3 anyone?).

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Diva
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

What Khatt said in an earlier post, they are just weans themselves and this is an incredibly sad situation. Weans (children for the benfit of the non Scots speakers!)need boundaries and education and help when it goes wrong! Sadly this one looks like it will end up on Jeremy Kyle in a few years time.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

If a crime has been committed here, which I doubt, surely the 'criminal' would be the older child - in this case the 15 year old girl - or are we saying that any girl is the victim of the boy who gets her pregnant?

I was sexually active from a young age, partly due to no sex education other than what the kids at school let loose and partly because I was so desperate for love and attention at that time that I would do just about anything for someone who showed me that attention.

I got pregnant at 17 and had three kids before I was 22. I've since been through three divorces before I met Kendall.

Now, looking back, I would have preferred a lot of that shit not to have happened, but it made me what I am today and I have two lovely children who I wouldn't change for the world. I've also managed to get to a point where I am happy with who I am, but that lesson took a long time to learn.

I see these young kids taking on responsibilities that can floor adults in secure relationships and wonder how in the hell they are going to cope. Thing is, a lot of them do and, maybe because their own home lives left a lot to be desired, they try to make their children's lives better. I hope that this is the case here.

IMHO you can give children all the sex education that you want but, if those kids are crying out for something that they aren't getting at home, they are quite likely to turn elsewhere for that closeness, which is craved by the majority of the human race. Then, when some one says "If you love me you will..." they will quite often have sex, just to keep that person close.

Maybe we all ought to be making sure that children, all of them, are given a good self image. Maybe we should be teaching respect, both for ourselves and for others, in schools - to me that is one of the most important lessons that any of us can learn.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

We live in sad times. No doubt there will be a line of "dogoers" offering help.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

Jacqui, well put...we do need to make sure children have healthy self-images which can lead to the confidence to wait to have sex and to make a lot of "good" decisions in their lives.

Like you, I got pregnant while a teen, 16, and a mother by 17. My other two were born before I was 25 and I've been married three times; the third time was a charm for me. We're coming to our 29th.:-)

I didn't lack for love and support at home, though. I was just ready to be out in the world, away from my parents' supervision, and I enjoyed sex! Didn't know beans about preventing pregnancy as there was no sex ed back then AND a kid had to have their parents' permission for any kind of birth control pill, etc.

I have no regrets. I would not be who I am had things gone differently. That may seem an obvious statement, but who knows in what profound ways it may have been different. I am happy with who I am and I am proud of my kids, all three of them.

That said, all three of mine were offered information about sex, birth control and a SAFE place in which to experiment and none of them had children until they were in their late twenties. They knew they could come to me and talk about anything, as did their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Am I the only one still stuck on the question of whether or not it is a "crime" for a twelve-old-year boy and a fifteen-year-old girl to engage in sexual activity? A couple of posters have asserted that it is; several have cited law that seems to imply adult/minor activity; even Richard Bridge's response was not conclusive (does "a rebuttable presumption of innocence to the age of 14" make a criminal of the fifteen-year-old girl?)

I'm mildly flabbergasted by the notion, to tell you the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

Exactly Kat. My children were taught about sex at home, before they were old enough to be self conscious of Mum talking about it. At the time we lived in an flat, with an open play area, and I wanted to make sure that they would heed the warning about talking to strangers and so explained what a peadophile was and what they did. Andrew had also been curious about where the baby in my stomach had come from, before Sharon was born.

Neither showed any inclination to experiment with sex in their early to mid teens. In fact, when my daughter dated her first serious boyfriend, I brought up the subject of birth control, only to be told off for even suggesting that she might do something like THAT at her age (16)! She told me that she considered that 18 was young enough and that her lad agreed with her.

Both my kids waited until they were in their 30s before having children.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

The Joy of Sex Education

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7892257.stm

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Meself...I'm really not sure where the law stands when both parties are underage and I'm not altogether sure that we can lay blame on either party.

The young couple have the massive task of raising the little one when they are still trying to find out about themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM

First off, "Judge not" comes to mind. When married adults screw around outside their marriage they are breaking the law. Now, exactly what law were these kids breaking? Our disapproval is not a basis for punishment; there must be a law against it. If there is no law against it, it is not a crime, like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

"If there is no law against it, it is not a crime, like it or not."

What I'm trying to find out is if there actually IS a law against it. I gather that while everyone here has an opinion, no one actually knows ... which would lead me to wonder - if there is a law against it, how on earth would these kids know, if such an august body of learned, worldly adults as ourselves don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

I think the legal side of it was put rather clearly further up the thread here, by Sooz.

LTS