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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 15 May 10 - 11:38 AM Both Transocean and Halliburton were subcontractors. BP (widely and correctly referred to in reports as "London-based BP") is quite correct to seek to place blame for their failures on them. Barack Obama as a lawyer should appreciate that, and his criticisms of "a "ridiculous spectacle" of publicly trading blame over the accident" are out of place and must I think be an attempt to play to the gallery of prejudice against "foreign corporations". I was with you right up till the point you brought in "foreign coprorations" because it's a total and complete non sequitur. It could be he's playing to the gallery of people mad about the spill, and BP being the most prominent name (and one most people know). I think that's far more likely. At any rate nothing in your explanation has anything to do with foreignness until your conclusion. Which therefore does not follow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 May 10 - 01:31 PM Haliburton and Cameron were contracted for this well by BP (the former often used by them for over half a century. The subcontractors follow specifications laid down by the operating company. It seems BP did not require the most advanced methods offered by Cameron. I don't know about Cameron, but Haliburton has offered careful service by excellent technicians to many companies over their long history. The BP executive may live to regret his comments to the Congressional Committee; he cannot be sued, however, because comments to a legislative body by are not actionable. I am sure that he will not repeat the remark outside of a protected 'venue'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: GUEST,Goose Gander Date: 15 May 10 - 02:27 PM My academic background is in history. When doing original research, I prefer to go to primary sources. Reading over President Obama's comments regarding the spill, I am at loss to find anything remotely close to bigotry, at least as I understand the word. Perhaps Mr. Bridge can cite an example from the speech in question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,kendall Date: 15 May 10 - 03:32 PM I am against greed and sloppiness no matter who is to blame. There are plenty of "Brown sandwiches" to go around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 May 10 - 05:01 PM Evidently your academia, goosey, does not include reading or understanding. The idea that British Petroleum (based in London) are to blame for their subcontractors' failures cannot (as I have demonstrated above) rationally be supported. Therefore it is irrationally derived. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: GUEST,Goose Gander Date: 15 May 10 - 05:12 PM Please, Richard, could you provide us with the remarks from Obama that constitute bigotry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 May 10 - 05:29 PM The substratum that is bigoted. Not the substratum of the drilling area, but of the commentary. Doh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 May 10 - 05:35 PM "not appreciate what I considered to be the ridiculous spectacle" of executives from BP, Transocean, the rig owner, and Halliburton, supplier of a cement pipeline plug, "falling over each other to point the fingers of blame at somebody else" in testimony before Congress earlier this week. "I will not tolerate more fingerpointing or irresponsibility," he said sternly. "There is enough responsibility to go around, and all parties should be willing to accept it." For a lawyer that is bollocks. Whose systems failed? Those of the US companies. Liability is a legal concept. The editor of the Harvard Law review cannot understand that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: catspaw49 Date: 15 May 10 - 05:42 PM Is it BP rig? Does BP own the oil coming from the well? Did BP, through whatever means, build the platform? They did not have to accept the work done if it did not meet the criteria set forth. While there are many involved, the ultimate responsibility is with BP......or as Greg points out, all of us for allowing this type of thing to take place. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Donuel Date: 15 May 10 - 06:05 PM BP address for North America is 28100 Torch Pkwy Ste 300 Warrenville, IL 60555 (630) 836-5000 yep it really is Torch Parkway. For UK it is James St. London and there is a new THK BP headquaters in Moscow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: GUEST,Goose Gander Date: 15 May 10 - 06:23 PM Really, Richard, is that the best you can do? The degree to which BP may or may not share responsibility with other parties is something for the courts to work out, but "the substratum that is bigoted."?! Maybe you could define what you mean when you use the term 'bigot'. And what does the physical location of BP's corporate offices have to do with responsibility for the spill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 May 10 - 06:32 PM Plainly the attack by US politicians on British Petroleum (of London) is because it is not a US company. BP is for the reasons I have set out above not liable for the spill. The attempt to cause it to pay for the faults of US companies is based on nationhood. It is bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: catspaw49 Date: 15 May 10 - 06:37 PM Oh horseshit.............As I recall the government went after Exxon and if this were a rig owned by Shell or someone else then they would go after them. No one here gives two runny shits where BP is based. Christ Richard, give it a break1 Your xenophobia is showing.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: GUEST,Goose Gander Date: 15 May 10 - 06:48 PM Richard, please read your own posts. Obama did not merely blame BP, he made it a point that he felt there was plenty of blame to go around, including but limited to BP. Anyway, BP is a multinational corporation. They're about as 'British' as Exxon is 'American'. You get the Humpty-Dumpty award for debasement of language with your whining about "bigotry". I would still like to know what the physical location of BP's offices has to do with responsibility for the spill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 15 May 10 - 09:26 PM Plainly the attack by US politicians on British Petroleum (of London) is because it is not a US company. It's only plain to you. There's nothing in what Obama said that has anything to do with nationalism. As everybody else but you has said, if it has been Shell or Exxon or Texaco, the stink would still smell the same and Obama would have said the exact same thing. You've got a bee in your bonnet and it's making your brain misfire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 May 10 - 09:33 PM Methinks the bigotry also roosts on the European side of the pond. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: steve in ottawa Date: 15 May 10 - 09:39 PM Richard said: Evidently your academia, goosey, does not include reading or understanding. The idea that British Petroleum (based in London) are to blame for their subcontractors' failures cannot (as I have demonstrated above) rationally be supported. Therefore it is irrationally derived. Wow. Time to shut this thread down? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: mousethief Date: 15 May 10 - 10:11 PM They are not to blame, maybe, but they are ultimately both responsible and accountable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: bobad Date: 15 May 10 - 10:31 PM Words like blame and responsibility strike me as being moral terms whereas liability sounds like a legal term to me. I would think that a contractor is liable for the work of his sub-contractors but then I am not a lawyer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 May 10 - 10:41 PM Assumption by Bobad- the work of the subcontractors was faulty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: bobad Date: 15 May 10 - 11:06 PM Q, I made no such assumption, the only assumption I did make was that a contractor is liable for the work of his sub-contractors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 May 10 - 11:23 PM Hey, Shit happens!.....Only idiots get their knickers in a twist with such stupid crap, like playing the 'blame game'! Richard. you think that Americans are bigoted?..Then hang out with your own crowd of geeks! If you're saying Obumbler is pissed at the Brits, or Bp,..so what? Most Americans think he's full of shit anyway! Just a few loudmouths, on here, lick his boots! Give it a rest! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 16 May 10 - 05:02 AM They (BP presumably) are still motivated by profit first and safety second. Ever worked for them Kendall? I did back in the 1990's. Before awarding major contracts the Bid evaluation teams were always briefed as follows: Technical Evaluation - Assess each bid; evaluate technical compliance with the ITT and competence to perform the work; evaluate that proposed equipment and method statements are "fir for purpose". Financial Evaluation - Keep it foremost in your minds when evaluating prces quoted The Contractor Must Make a Profit if he has trimmed his price too tight it may tempt him to cut corners and that acts against our best interests in significant ways: Safety; We have to increase our minitoring role; Mistakes may be made which will cost us time, money and resources to rectify; Any such delays may affect First Production. BP is an Operating Company and as such THEY ARE responsible for whatever happens in their Licence Areas. Having said that, they issue to the Licencing Authorities (In the UK that would be the Department of Energy and the HSE) for review, comment and approval details of exactly what they intend doing. In this case US Authorities would have known and would have looked at the designs of the Temporary Guide Base; the casing depths and cementation; the drilling programme; the BOP and the Well the Production Manifold that would eventually be installed. For many, many years now HAZID's; HAZOP's and Risk Assessments have been undertaken before any Operation is allowed to proceed. It will be a simple matter to establish it that was the case with this well. They are still motivated by profit first and safety second. Have you ever worked for Haliburton Kendall? I have experience of working for them directly and as a sub-contractor, I have also in turn had them working for me, and guess what Kendall as far as the driving force behind Haliburton goes you are spot on. Of the two BP were a "Flagship" Company that set standards; Haliburton (Or at least the parts of it I had to deal with) in comparison were "cowboys" who would cut every corner they could to maximise their profit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 16 May 10 - 06:11 AM No. I have never worked for Halliburton or BP. So what? I didn't sail with Columbus either but I know the world is round! BP has a shitty record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,woodsie Date: 16 May 10 - 06:23 AM I don't see why I should have a reduced pension to clean up fucking Amarican's problem! Incompetent big mouthed American's caused this shit the same as they are fucking up the whole planet! Let them rot in their own polution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Teribus Date: 16 May 10 - 06:50 AM Compared to many others in the oil industry world wide Kendall its damn near spotless, but then knowing nothing of how they operate you couldn't have a fuckin' clue what you are talking about. Mind you you could be one of the many gullible fools how believe everything they read so long as it matches their own prejudices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 16 May 10 - 12:20 PM ...most Americans think he's full of shit ... The latest poll disagrees. 69% like him, 51% think he is doing a good job. Look, I don't give a rats ass who is to blame! What is being done about it, that's what's important to me. woodsie, how is an oil spill going to cause you a reduction in your pension? And how is that Our fault? Are we paying your pension? You are entitled to your opinion even if it makes no sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 May 10 - 12:36 PM The policy briefly noted by Teribus is general among established oil companies; bad practice and bad publicity hurt profits and cause stockholders to sell their stock. Regulatory bodies (MMS in U. S. waters, regardless of registered company offices elsewhere) set the limits. It seems that the requirements in this case were inadequate, but drilling to a deep target in deep water, especially a large target with high formation pressure (unpredictable, but always possible) is not a stroll through the park. The operating company selects subcontractors who do work not performed by the operator; those selected must have a good record but the cost also is a consideration. As noted, Haliburton is one of the two foremost for the services offered. I really can't comment on Haliburton's current status; when I was working with petroleum exploration, they were highly thought of. Since their link with KBR, now broken and Haliburton's return to its original role, their ability may have suffered- I don't know- but they are accepted as competent by BP and other petroleum exploration companies world-wide. They are considered one of the best for the procedures they are hired to do, especially in deep water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 16 May 10 - 01:24 PM I agree with Kendall. It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it needs to get sorted first, then look at how the cost is disipated. It is a disaster and everybody that has the skill from wherever, should be employed to sort the problem out. If there is a disaster, like an earthquake, people from all around the globe, donate funds to get things sorted. Why can't that be the same with this. It might be the Americans problem, but in reality it is a world problem. We all need to pull together. Who knows where the next disaster occurs. IMHO we should pull together instead of taking a stance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 16 May 10 - 02:00 PM To imply that because I have never worked for an oil company and don't know how they operate makes my opinion that of a gullible fool is silly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 May 10 - 02:18 PM kendall: "The latest poll disagrees. 69% like him, 51% think he is doing a good job." ...according to the 'Amos and liberal left' poll! You need to check your facts better!..I mean, if facts are relevant to the ideologues, any more! Arthur itus: "I agree with Kendall. It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it needs to get sorted first, then look at how the cost is dissipated." ..and I agree with you and kendall, on that one! Personally, I think there must a way to utilize the oil coming up..but, I can't speak to that, as much, because that's up to the more knowledgeable, in that area. By the way, Arthur itus, great name there! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 16 May 10 - 03:38 PM Guest GFS said By the way, Arthur itus, great name there! Thanks but my knees don't like it :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 16 May 10 - 03:47 PM To me, this was a responsible part of Obama's statement, and it is one that he is responsible for, as USA President: "For too long, for a decade or more, there has been a cozy relationship between the oil companies and the federal agency that permits them to drill. It seems as if permits were too often issued based on little more than assurances of safety from the oil companies. That cannot and will not happen anymore. To borrow an old phrase, we will trust, but we will verify. Now, from the day he took office as Interior Secretary, Ken Salazar has recognized these problems and he's worked to solve them. Oftentimes he has been slammed by the industry, suggesting that somehow these necessary reforms would impede economic growth. Well, as I just told Ken, we are going to keep on, going to do what needs to be done. And so I've asked Secretary Salazar to conduct a top-to-bottom reform of the Minerals Management Service. This week, he announced that the part of the agency which permits oil and gas drilling and collects royalties will be separated from the part of the agency in charge of inspecting the safety of oil rigs and platforms and enforcing the law. That way, there's no conflict of interest, real or perceived. We've also ordered immediate inspections of all deepwater operations in the Gulf of Mexico. And we've announced that no permits for drilling new wells will go forward until the 30-day safety and environmental review that I requested is completed. We're also closing the loophole that has allowed some oil companies to bypass some critical environmental reviews, and today we're announcing a new examination of the environmental procedures for oil and gas exploration and development. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Arthur_itus Date: 16 May 10 - 04:02 PM An update http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8685368.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Joe Offer Date: 16 May 10 - 04:06 PM I received a complaint about an oil spill thread, but the person didn't say which oil spill thread - two of the three have been quite nasty, and I see that woodsie's post here is a bit ripe. So, let me just say: If you kids don't stop it right now, I'll......'Nuff said. And now, back to our program. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 16 May 10 - 04:51 PM There was an interesting article in yesterday's paper saying that this spill could make its way out of the gulf and into the Gulf Stream! Ok, when the tar balls start washing up on the shores of "Old Blighty" we will see if you folks over the5rte sing a different song! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 16 May 10 - 04:54 PM Guest from Sanity, what facts are you talking about? Sarah Palin's? Rush Limbaugh's? Your own? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 16 May 10 - 05:09 PM An interesting pair of news stories: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/may/16/gulf-oil-spill-bp http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/bp-boss-admits-mistakes-gulf-oil-spill |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 May 10 - 06:02 PM Yes, Kendall, the oil could enter the Gulf Loop Current and from there into the Gulf Stream, discussed with links in the Oil spill thread which has disappeared from the current 'below the belt' list. That is always a problem when someone goes off at a tangent and starts their own peeve thread. Joe has linked the other two threads at the top of this one. So far, winds and currents have kept the spill (really a gusher, spewing out the oil under high pressure) in an area suoth of the Louisiana Mississippi Delta. Some progress has been made and part of the oil is being collected and piped to a tanker, but only part- and entry into the Gulf Stream is still a possibility. The damage, if that happens, will be to East Coast U. S. and maritime Canada, but of course some 'tar balls' would continue up the Gulf Stream to Europe. The main hope for stopping the flow is the relief well, which will not intercept the old well for some two months- and we must hope that will work. There are no guarantees that it will. Interesting sidelight- US law limits the damages to $75 million, but I am sure law suits will continue for some time. Somewhere along the line, suit will be brought against the US for the failure of their regulator, MMS to require full compliance by the operator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 16 May 10 - 06:44 PM Q It is very unlikely that the Gulf of Mexico oil spill would impact Maritime Canada and the north eastern USA because the Gulf Stream moves east away from the coast as it moves northward (and, eastward towards Iceland and Europe. By the time the Gulf Stream is off Canada's east coast it is abour 400 nautical miles west of the coastline. Also, the prevailing currents along the Canadian Continental Shelf, off eastern Canada, flow south (part of the Labrador current). The southward flow, I suspect, would be prevailing throughout the Gulf of Maine to Cape Cod. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 May 10 - 08:30 PM Ed T, the mention of Maritime Canada came from a news item, so often incorrect. It does impact the Grand Banks, but at that distance, only some tar balls would be expected. Map of the flows predicted off the east coast of N. Am.: Oil spill and gulf stream currents The NOAA maps seem offline at the moment; they would be more accurate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bobert Date: 16 May 10 - 08:36 PM Joe, If people want to complain about threads that deal with the largest ecological disaster in our times then tell them stay above the line... This is one heck of a messed up situation and to pull the plug on any of it because someone thinks it ain'ty worth talkin' about is irresponsible... Tell 'um from me to "Bite me"... I mean, we let the threads go during the run-up to the Iraq War and on a different level this is, fir these times, perhaps as important... B~
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 16 May 10 - 08:51 PM Maybe the information in the attached report is isolated or not related to this case. But, could it be part of reasons for the changes that Obama indicated were needed? http://www.doioig.gov/upload/Smith%20REDACTED%20FINAL_080708%20Final%20with%20transmittal%209_10%20date.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 May 10 - 09:35 PM Thanks, Ed T. The gist has been reported in NY Times, etc., but it is good to see the entire document. It answers some of the questions that came to my mind when I read the news items. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 May 10 - 11:09 PM The 60 Minutes report (see Spill Baby Spill thread) seems to substantiate charges of almost criminal level against BP. The report appalled me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,kendall Date: 17 May 10 - 07:49 AM Mike Williams, the Electronics chief had quite a story to tell. He's lucky to be alive. BP was also responsible for the fire at the Texas refinery a few years ago. They were fined a huge amount of money. Don't tell me they have a great safety record! Bobert, this thread is certainly worth having but the name calling and other insults are not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Backwoodsman Date: 17 May 10 - 08:11 AM "Bobert, this thread is certainly worth having but the name calling and other insults are not." Correct. Bobert - we in the UK have had many tragedies of this kind. The North Sea (the stretch of water between the UK and Belgium/Holland/Denmark/Scandianavia) is one of the most dangerous seas in the world and is full of oil- and gas-rigs. A number have been lost in deadful accidents. Google 'Piper Alpha' - just one of them, where 170 or so men perished. We've had a number of huge spills too, from tankers wrecked on the British coastline in some of the most beautiful and wild-life-rich areas. Google 'Sea Empress' or 'The Braer Disaster'. We know what a 'tragedy' is. The US has our sympathy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bobert Date: 17 May 10 - 08:56 AM Well, I ain't called anyone any names... Might of fact, I was kinda late to this thread and maybe missed some of the name callin' but, hey... ...seein' as I've had a lot of names hurled in my direction over the years I might be so desensitized that I don't realize it when folks are doin' it??? I donno??? What I do know is that if the "60 Minutes" report turns out to be true then BP is in some deep poo... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: GUEST,Songbob Date: 17 May 10 - 12:38 PM The speeches that I heard were attacks on BP ("British Petroleum"). They were by Americans. The faults were the faults of the subcontractors. The subcontractors were American, but not attacked in the speeches." Jesus Christ! You're basing all this too-sensitive BS on Congressional speeches? Would you react to the catcalls heard during "Question Time" the same way? As the kids say, "Get a life." And your examples of non-responsibility (or non-liability, whichever) were not germane. If that sweep had used the draft test because you told him to make sure the sweep was necessary, in order to save costs, then the metaphor would be closer. BP is not a disinterested, non-technical homeowner requiring work on his house, but a full-blown part of the team, and by telling the US subcontractors what to do, and largely how to do it, BP is responsible. And honestly, I wish they were British -- it'd be easier to extract compensation than from a multinational corporation. We could just trim the "fat" from any "aid" we send you. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 May 10 - 02:06 PM The U. S. would never do it to a British-registered corporation, but in another thread I suggested that BP assets in the US be frozen. Might help some in getting compensation. I was hoping CNN would pick up the Mike Williams story, but not a peep on their TV reports. |
