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BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 24 May 02 - 11:04 AM Oh, and DW -- Absolutely right about the getting up bit... when I do injure myself after a fall (a literal one), it's not what happened on the way down, but stuff that went wrong when I tried to get up again.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 24 May 02 - 05:08 PM Oh, and Michael, I just had another thought re: romantic love and emotional imbalance (or rather, a different way of explaining what I said above of not all romantic love coming out of a tumble) I refer you back to our discussion of Oxytocin and walking. Taking it as a given that romantic love is the result of hormone shifts: A sudden shift would indeed lead to the emotional sensation of losing our balance falling, and bring us from point A (acquaintances) to point L (lovers) in the time it takes to get from vertical to horizontal. But couldn't you also be able to get from point A to point L with a gradual, rather than a sudden shift, using the walking, rather than the falling metaphor (ie that walking is losing your balance and catching yourself before you fall)? Seems to me that this is one biological explanation for the phenomenon described by JenEllen earlier in this discussion: I see it as more of an amnesiac episode. My best friends and dearest loves all have come through usual channels, and then one day you realize just how much you care for them and wonder 'when did this happen?'. I've, to this point in my life, been unable to pinpoint an exact moment of 'falling' in all cases save one. ~~~ Oh, and Amos can correct me if I'm wrong but I think his statement: "I urge you to review the actual evidence! :>)" was meant as a satirical comment, and not reffering to any labratory experiment, (note the smiley face emoticon with pointy nose), and that he was making the point that your argument of reducing all of love to brain chemicals doesn't stand up to the real life experience of love as a subjective, human endeavor; the "actual evidence" being what you feel when you are in love. Translation: "I dare you to make that Oxytocin overdose statement again when you really are in love!" Right, Amos? ;>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 03 Jun 02 - 11:05 AM Just wanted to let you guys know that I read this piece (slightly edited from the version above) at The Art Garden on Saturday, and it went really well. Several people told me that I should try to get it published, and one person suggested that I send it in to NPR, to be read on the air (!) So I guess my reading of it was clear enough. Now that I'm thinking back on it of course, I'm thinking of all the ways it could've been better -- that I might've gotten the laughs I was looking for if I had paused in different places, ect., ect.. But in any case, I wanted to thank you all for your help in getting it clear in my mind. :-) Love ya! |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Amos Date: 03 Jun 02 - 11:32 AM My apologies, Michael; I have been away from this thread. There is extensive evidence that biochemical events (to which you attribute the whole nature of love) ar ein fact subordinate side-effects to a range of phenomena associated with the human spirit. I would refer you for starters to the studies cited by Dr L. Dossey in his books on "Re-inventing Medicine", "Healing Words" and others. Each of his books includes extensive references both to rigorous clinical studies and to documented case histories, as well as to more anecdotal material. His bibliographies are excellent. I don't have a bibliography to hand here at the office, but I think I can safely say that the Ghost in the Machine, for want of a better term, is a bigger proposition, and more repsonsible for our states of affinity, that the biochemistry which reacts to those things. Regards, A A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Jun 02 - 11:43 AM When you fall from a height(or have that sensation in a roller coaster) it feels like your stomach comes up into your throat. Falling in love has a similar sensation.:-)
I think of "falling in love" as being swept away, as others have, or a hopeless infatuation (which is definitely not love.) I didn't "fall" in love with my wife. I met her, I loved her. I used to kid her that there'd be plenty of time to get to know each other after we got married. Love came first, then knowledge. One of these days, I'm going to take her out on our first date. :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jun 02 - 01:24 PM Hopeless infatuation isn't love? Then why are the symptoms and the outcome the same? And not all infatuations are hopeless..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Jun 02 - 01:51 PM Hi, Liz: The major problem with communication is that you have to use words. I am using infatuation in the dictionary definition:
Infatuate: "To cause to behave foolishly" or "to inspire with unreasoning love or attachement."
Infatuated: "Possessed by an unreasoning passion or attraction."
Infatuation can blossom into love, but it has no depth or maturity.
Fun, though!:-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: katlaughing Date: 03 Jun 02 - 02:08 PM LtS, how do you mean the outcomes are the same? I've had infatuations before that had nothing to do with love and an entirely different outcome than being in love with someone. Just wondering. CapriUni, no problem, I am back to tai chi, etc. to keep my center of gravity lower AND Rog has wired up the TV and gotten rid of the cable I tripped on!*bg* Congratulations on your successful reading at the Art Garden. I am not surprised it went well..it is a good piece. Isn't it fun to read your own stuff aloud to an appreciative audience? You should come into Paltalk sometime and read it for us. We used to do poetry sessions once in awhile and included short essays, etc. I believe that being in love, over a certain amount of time can bring emotional well-being. I am not as healthy being apart from Rog as I am when he is nearby. Spaw has mentioned how he just doesn't get along as well when Karen is gone. In the beginning, when we first met, I was pretty high on love, possiblities, etc., but it has been with time that I have calmed down and we've built a foundation of lifetime love. I believe it is the emotions which cause the hormonal changes and that those can also be different over time. In TCM, Traditional Chinese Medicine, it is taught (for over 2,000 years) that dis-ease begins with our emotions, which, in turn, can effect us physically, sometimes in a very serious way. Accupuncture, herbs, etc. are used to treat the organs, muscles, etc. which are effected, but a really good practioner will also work with the person and their emotional stability. I had this brought home to me in a vivid way earlier this year. I barely had a voice, my throat was so constricted, my emotions were high and on edge with Rog already at a new job in another state and our househunting causing beaucoup stress. I had a terrible time breathing whenever I tried to be active or speak, even with the tether of O2. Went to the regular doc, who listened to everything, checked all of the iffy spots and told me there was nothing wrong, no fluid in the lungs, nada. Went to the accupuncturist who started working with me on emotions, using needles and herbs to help me calm down and refocus and, eventually, I was able to get along better. To put it in allopathic terms, I had stress-induced ashma, kind of, but in TCM it was a symptom of high emotions with which I needed help. Hope I made that clear enough to make the connection to some of the points others have brought up. Thanks CU for this thread. It has been very interesting. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: mousethief Date: 03 Jun 02 - 02:29 PM Originally posted by Katlaughing: In TCM, Traditional Chinese Medicine, it is taught (for over 2,000 years) that dis-ease begins with our emotions, which, in turn, can effect us physically, sometimes in a very serious way. I'd never heard that before, but it sure packs a whollop. Helluvalotta wisdom in that POV. Wow. Thanks for that! Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 03 Jun 02 - 03:28 PM Amos, Your connection of "falling in love" with Satan's fall was thought provoking. The "abandonment of serenity" and "absolute trust" aspects of "falling in love" also resonate a lot with the way many song lyrics seem, to me, to treat the subject. [This could apply to philos, eros, and agape.] ------------- Much of the discussion above, including, Ann', your understandable take on "falling." relates to unwilling losing balance and control and often paying dearly for it [as when I tripped and tumbled head first down a cement stairway a few years ago]. But falling does not have to be completely passive, much less unintentional. The skydiver is not a "victim," for example [unless the 'chute doesn't open]. They tell me that the free fall is a real rush. Celtic Soul, you mentioned "jumping off a cliff." Yes, you fall, but the jumping [hopefully with a parachute or bungee cord or into water, like those divers in Acapulco] is active and deliberate. Remember the touch-feely group exercises where whoever was "It" would allow herself/himself to fall backwards and let the other people catch her/him?* Many who did this reported it as a great personal breakthrough and a real HIGH.** As you said, Amos, [falling in love] "... is really a river of your own energies, unleashed, the governor uncoupled...". And, Sharon, don't we all try very hard, or at least want very much, to "fall asleep" each night? Some of the discussion about falling brings up the distinction between what happens when you fear or resist the fall and what happens when you relax. Drunks often suffer less injury in car crashes than sober people do, because they don't tense their bodies in anticipation of the impact. Cats, too, are really good at falling without getting hurt, compared to dogs, people, and most other mammals. And how much you get hurt depends partly on what you fall into or onto [a lake vs. cement, for example]. I'm an ice skater, and I would much rather fall on ice than take a similar fall on my living room carpet, because, especially if I'm going fast, much of the energy of the fall is transformed into horizontal motion rather than being absorbed by my bones. Maybe the wise, self-respecting person chooses well when and with whom to allow the "fall." Ann, you said, "I've always equated "Falling in love" with a sudden, unexpected feeling for some one or thing, accompanied by a change in perspective about your own world and assumptions." I'd agree, but I think this can happen only if you're open to it. --------- *Personally, I could never let myself trust other peoples SKILL that much, no matter how much I trusted their intentions. **These were, no doubt, not the ones who got dropped.Most love, I imagine, is "grown" rather than "fallen" into -- a gradual growing awareness of the value of this person or thing in your life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 03 Jun 02 - 03:57 PM 'Scuse me. The sentence "Most love, I imagine, is "grown" rather than "fallen" into -- a gradual growing awareness of the value of this person or thing in your life. " was not supposed to be part of that last footnote.
I was going to comment on the question you raised, Ann, about songs about "growing in love," as opposed to "falling." The song that came immediately to mind is Lerner and Loewe's
On the other hand, a song that I like that relates to the idea of "falling" as not so passive [brought to mind by your river analogy, Mc Grath] is Dan Fogelberg's song "Shallow Rivers". I do like your essay very much, Ann, and I can relate to all the negative aspects of "falling" [both physically and emotionally], but I wanted to juxtapose them with the more positive interpretation,too. Genie
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jun 02 - 06:05 PM Symptoms - stupid grin, inclination to sit and dream, overwhelming desire to help the person in everything, overwhelming desire to tell the person every smallest incident, giggling stupidly and blushing when their name is mentioned, bringing them into every sort of conversation (mentionitis) regardless of the appropriateness. Outcome - screwed in every way possible. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CarolC Date: 03 Jun 02 - 06:59 PM I just now read your piece, CapriUni. That's really nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 04 Jun 02 - 01:23 AM LtS, you wrote: Outcome - screwed in every way possible. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. That's infatuation, I think, and not love. With love, the benefits clearly outweigh the skrewy-ness, and as the love matures, the goofiness level goes down, too. Genie, you wrote: But falling does not have to be completely passive, much less unintentional. The skydiver is not a "victim," for example That's not "Falling". That's "Jumping" (jumping from very, very high up, to be sure, but still jumping) -- or rather, "Diving" -- different verb altogether. "Diving in love" is an interesting idea, though... Besides, as I understand it, skydivers steer themselves way down, don't they, by shifting their weight, and such? That's almost "Walking your way down" And I seriously thought about writing about falling in love with falling asleep (a gradual transition from one state of being to another), but decided this route would give me more "compare and contrast" space to talk about what I believe love really is like. CarolC -- Glad you liked it! This is actually a rougher draft than the one I read on Saturday... I shortened the final version by about 100 words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Jun 02 - 01:38 AM No Capri, been there, done both, ended up screwed every time. That's why I'm such a cynical old moo now. Some examples: Someone I love very much on several levels and still go goofy over, is actually married to someone else, because as he confessed, 'she was there at the time' (they'd shared a very difficult and traumatic journey out of China at the height of the student protests there, when westerners were being expelled from the country or interred without trial or hope of release). His family thought he was dead, so I stopped waiting for him, but never stopped loving him. And the total infatuation? Well, aside from my fascination for Sean Connery's chest hair, I've done the infatuation bit too, more than once, and if it's gone anywhere, I've ended up screwed because I always seem to put in more than he did, or because the glamour wore off and he was revealed for the lousy, violent, drunken shit that he really is, or he was only after the one thing and when he'd had his fill, pissed off. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 04 Jun 02 - 01:54 AM Ann, yes, divers, bungee jumpers, and skydivers jump first, but jumping off of one's secure footing into the open air is followed by falling. That is to say, you still fall (even if you manipulate the position of your body), but to jump is to choose to fall (to choose to let gravity bring you back to earth. (As "gravity" often brings one back down to earth after one "falls in"--or "jumps into" love.) Skydivers jump/dive into a "free fall" before opening the parachute. Choosing to let yourself "fall in love" is a "leap of faith," isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:36 PM LtS -- Re: your examples If you ask me, if he doesn't love you back, it's not real love ... or at least, not a loving relationship... There was a guy in high school that I really loved (I won't say I was "in love with him" because I never got up the courage to tell him how I felt, so I was there alone). He eventually married a wonderful woman, and after I met her, I was able to 'let him go' so to speak, out of my imagination, and let my heart go, too, for that matter... I still love him, but I let the love shift form from "fantasy crush" to "friend", which is what he really was, all along, and as such, I get many more benefits than pains from the relationship. Genie -- What you say about falling may be true (I still think of jumping and diving as very different verbs than falling, but you may be correct in the dictionary sense). However, I have never been sky diving or bungee jumping, and, as I said in the intro part of my piece, I'm only speaking from my own experience... I'm not saying love is like that for everybody -- just for me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:57 PM Ann, my point re "falling" was not to dismiss the points you made, for I full agree that to see "loving" as a passive activity into --and out of --which one "falls" helplessly is probably not to experience the deepest, most meaningful forms of love. I was just reiterating the theme that letting go can be an active choice and a very rewarding one [if the time, place, person, etc., are right]. The distinction between physically "falling" and "jumping" I'd say depends on whether it's a short distance [where you mainly jump vertically or horizontally] or a long one [where gravity's gonna take over for most of the duration]. BTW, another song that comes to mind that runs sort of counter to the "falling in love" theme is the Eagles' "Peaceful Easy Feeling." "...I know you won't let me down, 'cause I'm already standing on the ground." |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 04 Jun 02 - 07:30 PM Genie -- re: re: bits about falling. Understood. Anyhoo... I notice that all the love-not-at-first-sight songs are all modern ones... Any traditional songs along those same lines? Or is the luxury of gradually falling in love a modern phenomenon, that can only happen when both partners can be partners (as opposed to being "assigned" to each other by parents)? Just a thought... |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 04 Jun 02 - 07:39 PM Actually, Ann, I rather associate the gradual falling in love phenomenon with other times and places (i.e. not contemporary Western society), where love COULD develop gradually, because • you got married by arrangement and, if the match was made well by your parents, you grew to love each other (cf. Tevye and Golde in "Fiddler") or •courtship was lengthy and premarital hanky panky so highly curtailed that folks actually got to know each other before acting on their infatuation/lust. Seems to me that in our modern society gradual love is less likely to occur, because a lot of folks don't spend any time with a potential partner unless the infatuation is there to begin with. At least this appears to be the message of our mass media: if you haven't hit the sack with someone by the third date, your romance is really retarded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: michaelr Date: 05 Jun 02 - 03:24 AM Amos - I've been away a bit, myself. So, would you give creedence to the so-called "intelligent design" hybrid they're trying to tout these days (to appease both sides)? Being a lifelong sceptic myself (not a big step if you're brought up Lutheran), I am impressed by the anecdotes (Healing Words) but still, um, sceptical. Anyway, I don't want to start a religious discussion |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Mr Red Date: 05 Jun 02 - 09:00 AM some people don't fall - they climb down. and a pleasant walk it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: annamill Date: 05 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM From my perspective, you have fallen in love many times. I feel the reason this particular concept is used is not because you get any particular feeling different that any other love. I think the reason it is used is because of the helplessness you feel when you come to love something or someone without expecting to. How many times have you been taken with something and could not refuse to allow it into your life? A kitten, a puppy, a child, or for some of us, a man or woman?? Falling is unexpected and can not be helped. Nothing you can do, once the fall begins, can stop it. To me, the phrase 'Falling in Love" means I can't stop it from happening. I fell in love with my little Maltese, Maxie, when I saw her little face in the pet shop. I had no intention of buying a dog. I wanted my life simple and unencumbered. I went back to that pet store almost every day to watch her and play with her. I finally bought her and she has become a very important part of my life. The love for my husband was also unexpected. I'm a very free soul and DID NOT want to be tied down. No, I wasn't knocked down by love for him. It grew quite unexpectedly. I "fell in love" with him and he has become a very important part of my life. I loved your piece and I would like to congratulate you on the fine acceptance it received. I hope I added a little to your understanding of this sometimes misunderstood phrase. I fell in love with Mudcat! Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 05 Jun 02 - 02:19 PM Annamill -- I dunno... I have been in love many times, but I don't feel like I've fallen there. To me, falling is a very specific and concrete sensation that I can't disassociate from the physical act of falling into an abstraction. But you may be correct about the origin of the phrase... Still, there are many things I do that I can't fight -- even if I want to, that have nothing to do with falling. Breathing, for example. Before my asthma was first diagnosed and treated, there were times I wished I could just stop the struggle for breath for just a moment, so I could rest, but I couldn't do it, no matter how hard I tried (thank goodness). And, well, I've never been surprised by love... maybe that's just my personality, but I think I go through the world expecting to love everything and everyone (I guess you can thank those doctors and nurses who loved me in the first five weeks of my life outside the womb for that). Fear has suprised me, if that's my reaction to someone new, but not love. Maybe, for me at least (YMMV), "Breathing in love" would be a better phrase, especially since it suggests an interplay of energies, and metabolisms... |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: lady penelope Date: 05 Jun 02 - 04:21 PM I've been infatuated.....that rollercoaster every time you see him, that yearning when he's not there, that feeling that you cannot comprehend life without him, that tidal wave of joy when you greet him, osscilating between smugness and sweet melancholy. And then I truly fell in love. The rollercoaster has changed to an intense deep breath that you could pull in forever if only your lungs weren't so small, gone is the melancholy ( I still get smug though ). Life without him will have have to be dealt with, should it come to pass, but I have no time for thoughts like that. The joy on greeting is still there and I still miss him when he's away, more than I expect. I have lived with him for a decade and I'm still learning about him and I love that this is so, it creates the idea of vast potential. Who needs the world? I have a universe to hold.
(There will be a small pause whilst the bucket is passed round : ) )
In both cases I have genuinley experienced the sensation of falling or having my personal world tilt. The major difference, I would say, between the two (infatuation and love ) is that infatuation is marked by the inability of one or both parties to change and still feel the same toward the other. Love, however, is all about change. I have grown and changed with all the loves of my life, be they my parents, syblings, my friends or my beloved. I don't know how else to put it. Maybe I'll go away and think on it some more. A very good thread. TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: CapriUni Date: 05 Jun 02 - 07:25 PM Awww, Lady P! That's just wonderful... Not much more to say, is there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 Jun 02 - 11:28 PM Lady P, consider bucket filled.... but I know what you mean. I presume this is Parker we are talking about??? The difference has been clear to us all who've known you for that decade and longer..... Infatuation can turn to love, and I think that's what DW was saying way back up there.... sometimes it's such a gentle fall you don't know you're there until you have to climb back up again. LTS
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 06 Jun 02 - 02:37 AM Annamill, I think you've hit on the important aspect of "falling" in love that allows it to SEEM to be yet NOT BE be a passive and helpless event--" the helplessness you feel when you come to love something or someone WITHOUT EXPECTING TO<. I'd maintain [in keeping with Amos's first post, above] that when you are unexpectedly, and at a conscious level unwillingly overpowered by what Freud called "cathexis" to, say, your newborn baby or a new lover, some part of you [an important part] wishes to have that connection [even if it doesn't fit with your rational plans for your life. [Amos: "The fact that it is really a river of your own energies, unleashed, the governor uncoupled, usually escapes one's attention!"} You do assent to and participate in this love you have "fallen" into. If you really did not, at any level of consciousness, desire emotional connection with an other, I do not believe you could "fall." Sometimes God, the Universe, Fate, or whatever you want to call it, slaps you upside the head and wakes you up to beautiful realities/worlds you had tried to avoid. I think this is true when you really "fall in LOVE," as opposed to merely becoming infatuated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Julie B Date: 06 Jun 02 - 01:34 PM Thanks Lady P. Beautiful. Julie B |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: EBarnacle1 Date: 06 Jun 02 - 05:11 PM Let's not overintellectualize. As the song says, "But not so deep as the love I'm in--I care not if I sink or swim." True love is a growth, a realizaion. My friend and I have known each other for about 15 years. As each year goes by, we get more into phase with each other and the relationship gets better. She was there to comfort me when I got divorced. I was there to perform the same for her. Now that we are on the same page, the relationship is wonderous to behold and experience. When I think of her, I tingle all over-still! |
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Subject: RE: BS: ? (maybe) 'falling' in Love? discussion From: Genie Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:57 PM Please excuse the excessive underscoring in my last post. Purely unintentional. |