BS: Oh ye generation of morons...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 08:50 PM

Hey! Old Bill (Clinton) IS sort of likeable, I think....just not very trustworthy in certain respects. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 11:05 PM

We have, here in Pittsburgh, an 8% entertainment tax. It is added to the 6% state sales tax and the 1% city sales tax people pay for movie tickets, concert tickets, theater tickets etc. It makes this town a decidedly lousy concert venue.
If I wanted to run for public office in this town, I would say that I was going to eliminate the entertainment tax. I would be elected.
Arnold got elected because he promised to get rid of a car tax Californians hated. David Duke found his way on to the Louisiana State legislature because he opposed an unpopular tax. Americans vote their wallets.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Kaleea
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 11:33 PM

Wasn't it the great philosopher, Bugs Bunny, who said, "What a maroon!"

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:00 AM

Yes, Guest/heric, I did know that - and a good deal more. I am originally from Oregon, next door to California; maybe that's why? Seriously, there is a good deal on the internet about the man, plus I read several liberal newsmagazines, as well as mainstream ones.

Segue here- On Wednesday noons I play with Juneau's City Attorney. (He's a very good mandolin player.) As he was leaving yesterday, I told him that I'm happy with the local elections but that I'm glad I don't live in California. He exploded. "What is the matter with those people," he said. "What the man does is a crime! Why is that suddenly all right?"

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:53 AM

It's seems to me that government is top heavy with criminals. One of the new requirements for office I guess. From the president on down. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 08:44 AM

To return to the article that led off this thread....

I don't think that the issue is so much that people are ill-informed or misinformed as much as that they are selectively deaf. The attitude of many Americans is, "George W. Bush said it so it's gotta be the truth." The three misconceptions referred to in the article are not just misconceptions, they are Bush administration policy. Anyone who points out that they are, in fact, lies, is a lying liberal and can be ignored (or he is a traitor and deserves to be shot for implying that GWB is less than perfect). Bush's lies are what many Americans want to believe and evidence to the contrary be damned.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: TIA
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

O'Meara -

Your views don't mesh perfectly with either major U.S. political party, but they match Howard Dean's perfectly. (I can't believe I beat Alice in pointing this out :)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 09:39 AM

Maybe it's a combination of people who don't listen to the news who say "George Bush says it was Iraq hit us on 911", and believe it because if George Bush says something it must be true; and people who do listen to the news and have picked up on the fact that George Bush has said it wasn't actually Iraq - so they don't believe t, because if George Bush says something it must be a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 11:13 AM

I pretty much maintain a policy of Cautious Skepticism when I watch/read the news. I do think the media doesn't really do a great job of reporting what the real facts are, because so often it seems like they don't bother to find out.

One of the things that gripes me in news reporting is when they report a story, and then say, "details haven't been released." Okay, so why are you telling me this NOW? It don't seem like much of a NEWS STORY until you have the details.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 11:31 AM

Perhaps people say that what they read or hear from Bush is true because it makes them feel secure and comfortable, as though they are living in a country which is Right (pun not applicable here).

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:00 PM

But that doesn't reallyt wrok pdc, because when it comes to,that about Iraq and September 11th they are apparently refusing to believe what he says...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:02 PM

GUEST,Casual Observer said “Why should I have to choose one or the other when I think they are both idiotic?”

Well of course they're both idiotic! But that is partly because thoughtful people refuse to participate. It's the parties that generate the platforms and the candidates. If you want decent candidates and responsible issues, get involved in a party. Knock on doors, get out mailings, ask tough questions of people who desire to become candidates and then, when the caucus or primary election is held to choose the candidate, show up, cast your vote, and work to make sure like minded people do the same. The party process isn't that mysterious or difficult; like a lot of life, most of it is just showing up. But to do this, you must register as a party member. You don't have to change your ideas or even agree with the dorks running the party. Pay your dues, hang around and before you know it, you'll be running your local party. It ain't that tough.

Voting independent is a luxury we can ill afford at this time. Sure if you're presented with a well educated reasonable sounding Republican running for Congress against a Democrat who seems like another entrenched hack, you're tempted to go for the Republican. But the reality is that the new Republican will wind up as an errand boy for the neocon junta and only adds to their power instead of providing the reason and balance you were hoping for. If you're serious about wanting change, you either have to be in party politics or you must have your own military-industrial complex. If you're just going to remain “above the fray” until someone makes things better for you, you'll be up there a very long time.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:09 PM

In general people believe what they want to believe and don't let the facts get in the way too much...

They can sometimes be shocked out of that posture if the evidence is drastic enough, though. When that happens, governments fall and political careers are terminated...as will no doubt happen to Arnold somewhere down the line.

The saddest thing about North American politics in the last few decades is how people have been suckered over and over again into voting in scoundrels by being offered a tax cut! (As if the money wasn't going to be gotten out of them by some other method...there are real expenses to maintaining a society, and only so much real money to go around. So...if the state reduces your taxes, then you will just end up either losing vital public services or paying more taxes to the towns and municipalities to make up the shortfall...or paying a higher price to private businesses to do what you used to get done by public entities for less money than the private sector will charge you!)

Talk about being selectively deaf...

It's a political magic show. The hand is quicker than the eye. People only see the obvious hand in front of their nose offering them a tax cut, they don't see the other hand behind their back robbing their wallet and their future at the same time.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:22 PM

Okay then the results are in on my scientifically designed study. Two Californians of moderate intellectual capacity who do some reading had never heard that Ahnold was the state campaign head for Bush/Cheney, or that his goobernorship was launched after consultation with Karl Rove. One West Virginian knew that; an Alaskan knew both.

Conclusion: Media conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:28 PM

Heric, do you have a source for Arnold as state campaign manager for Bush-Cheney? That would be really valuable.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:33 PM

Good point, LH. The money for infrastructure and services only comes from one of two sources, the average local taxpayer or foreign consumers.

Companies don't pay taxes. They may pass some money on to the federal and local governments but they got that money from their customers. The cost is built into their selling price. If you are actually paying taxes and not getting someone else to pay them for you, it's because you aren't selling any goods and services beyond your own labor. If foreign consumers are crazy for your products, you can load exports up with taxes and collect from them but you'd better make sure you don't have to buy any of their products or they'll simply pass the costs back to you.

Now the scoundrels are cutting taxes, cutting funds to education and telling us education will be better and more efficient (many people think this means cheaper) if we all just buy it from commercial providers. Of course instead of paying a school superindendent $150,000 there'll be a CEO getting millions plus passing corporate taxes on to us, charging us a sales tax on the cost of going to school then firing any innovative teachers that aren't willing to become corporate drones.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: The O'Meara
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:11 PM

Schwarzenegger is a republican, and has been involved with politics for a long time. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. But He's a likeable guy, very funny, a celebrity, and will fix what's wrong "and stuff" so that doesn't matter.
?

TIA; I've been avoiding it, but I reckon I'll check out Howard Dean's website. (Can you set up a blue clicky?) I doubt he could win against Bush, but you never know. I think we're too far into the two-party system for a true maverick on either side to have a chance. It's likely Hillary Clinton, (An amateur anti-Christ) wlii jump into the race. And she's a likeable celebrity, what more could you ask for?

It looks to me as if "the pendulum" in America is defying the laws of physics and swinging wider each time rather than settling toward the center. In politics, the liberals and conservatives are moving further away from each other and spewing hatred instead of rational arguments. (e.g. the anti-Bush and the anti-Clinton groups) Economically the gap between rich and poor is getting larger. Or am I missing something

Sorry to sound so cynical, but, well, I'm cynical.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:17 PM

pdc the only place I have seen it is here:
http://www.sundayherald.com/37214
(I was starting to doubt it, too, if that's your point.)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:37 PM

Mark, because of the mere fact that I bother to go vote, I don't think anyone decides things for me. It's the people who don't vote that let others make their decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:42 PM

No doubt at all, Heric - I just couldn't find it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 03:54 PM

C.O., Yes, I agree. You are taking the trouble to help decide, and that's good. But the candidates and platforms you are given have been decided for you. You could choose to help select candidates and platforms and we'd all be the better for it. Not only that, but you'd have far more influence at the party level than you do as a single vote in the general election.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 07:46 PM

C.O. - It's obviously more empowering to vote than not vote, but what do you do when the major parties are all controlled by big interests that don't represent the ordinary public in the least?

How can your vote count when ALL the major parties will betray you once they are in office?

That is precisely what's been happening out there for decades, and the public can't do a thing about it. People who don't realize this are either unaware of it (which would be surprising at this point) or they're in deep denial.

There are independent candidates and small parties who might offer a real alternative to the Machine but they have utterly no hope of getting elected, because they don't have the funding and they are ignored by the corporate-controlled media.

It's a closed shop. Our elections are a facade, not a real exercise in democracy.

And that is why I would prefer to see all political parties disbanded forever...and nobody running for office BUT independents, all of whom would receive equal funding from a public campaign trust. Then you could have honest, fair elections.

Either that or just select adequately qualified people at random from the population and have them serve in government for 4 years as a public service (like doing jury duty) and earning a good wage. I swear I believe THAT would result in more honest and better government than our present ridiculous system, which is based on patronage and control from behind the scenes by people we never vote for anyway.

However, none of these things I suggest will happen.

Accordingly, I will enjoy my life as best I can, vote even though I have little confidence that it will make much difference, and concentrate on my own development as a human being in the meantime. After I die, it'll all seem like a good joke anyway, from my point of view at least. This too shall pass.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 08:45 PM

Little Hawk, we had a similar idea here at one time, when we figured Vancouver Island should become a Grand Duchy. People would be randomly selected from the phone book, to act as Grand Duke and Grand Duchess.

After a two year period, democratic process would be respected and the populous would then vote as to whether or not the retiring Duke and Duchess would be executed for their performance in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 01:44 PM

I like it. But why execute them? I think just putting them in the stocks for a day or two and throwing tomatoes at them ought to suffice. :-) And if they did well in office, you could hold a big celebration party for them.

I think a government based on random selection of people would work very well indeed. It would be a singular honor to be one of those chosen, and most people would take it very seriously and try their best to do a good job in all probability, knowing that their neighbours and fellow citizens were counting on them.

Given the nature of party machines, a person is almost bound to be compromised and corrupted by the existing system long before he ever gets elected.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 02:02 PM

Why execute them??? Because the very real threat of being done in for your malfeasance, is a splendid incentive to deport yourself in an exemplary manner. And besides, the voting populace loves their revenge, why not take it to new heights? *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 02:38 PM

The idea of rule by people who'd been appointed by drawing lots has been around for a long time.The Athenians had a version of it. And here is
a rather more recent book arguing the case.

It was one of the ideas floating about around what should replace the hereditary House of Lords in London - so thta there woudl be a House of Randoms alongside the Housenif Commons, rather than a second chamber with members appointed or elected. which were always being falsely presented as the only options available. But it's not an idea that professional politicians anywhere ever much like the sound of, strangely enough...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 09:10 PM

That's for sure...LOL! The last thing they want is to put government back in the hands of ordinary people.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 11:45 PM

Howard Dean balanced the state budget while cutting taxes twice! It's called efficient management. (Or no $300 hammers.) Just think what he could do in Washington! I've been working on his campaign, in a conservative town. Most of the response has been positive. I think Dean CAN beat Bush in '04.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:19 AM

I'd like to see Dean get in because of his fiscal record as well. But consider the gigantic deficit the poor guy will inherit.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 12:01 PM

To quote Richard Pryor (in "Brewster's Millions)

Vote "None of the above"!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 12:54 PM

LadyJean - That sounds good...but I wonder? In Canada unscrupulous fiscal conservatives have sometimes balanced government budgets too...you know how? NOT by increasing efficiency! Hell no! They did it by downloading their government costs onto the backs of towns, municipalities, and ANYONE else that they could dump the bills on. They did it by eviscerating vital social programs, schools, and hospitals. They did it by throwing mental patients out on the street to fend for themselves. They did it by auctioning off publicly run services to private industry and laying off government workers...whereupon private industry (seeking a profit) tried to do the job with half as many people and did it half as well and CASHED IN...whereupon everything got MORE expensive and a whole lot worse for ordinary people, towns, and municipalities!!!

And this they call "fiscal responsibility"! What a lying bunch of thieves they are, robbing Peter to pay Paul and padding their own pockets in the process. No wonder private industry funds their political campaigns!

Unfortunately the people who voted for them could see no farther than the glowing announcements about "balancing the budget", and of course their puny tax cut, as promised at election time... This is like a man who pays off one credit card (the official one) while going into debt five times over on three other credit cards that he used to pay off the first one, but he doesn't tell people about those other three credit cards.

It's a case of selective blindness.

And that is the real conservative agenda in North America. Lies and sleight of hand, while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the middle class withers away.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:12 PM

spot on, Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:21 PM

Although none of the survey is surprising, just remember how many people believed Orson Welles' War of the Worlds broadcast.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 08:59 PM

There may be the seeds of a solution here. If memory serves, there were a good number of suicides during & following Welles' radio show.

If it is indeed the same gullibility at work, perhaps a re-broadcast would rid us of a substantial number of right-wing nut cases?

Probably be worth a try, at least...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:48 PM

Watching Jason Robards and Kirk Douglas in Inherit the Wind was a chilling reminder of where our country has been and how much it has reverted in recent times. Of course, the fundies never really went away, but they do have more of a voice, now, than they did even then, in some ways. It was stunning to actually see a banner across the front of the courthouse remind all to "read their Bible daily" then to hear Robard's character demand a similar banner which would read "read your Darwin daily." Reminds me of the judges who want to keep the Ten Commandments in stone in their courtrooms.

I wish we had people as eloquent, now, as they were back then, to argue the case against the shrub and his ultra-wrong crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: TIA
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 11:52 PM

Jerome Lawrence and Robert E. Lee's play Inherit the Wind was probably more important, culturally, than the actual Scopes Trial it chronicles. The original 1925 “monkey” trial was actually a scam rigged by the town council of Dayton, Tennessee, as a desperate but successful attempt to pump some money into the town's failing economy. Scopes agreed to go on trial as part of the scam even though he had never actually discussed evolution in his class.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:13 AM

One of the problems is that we don't take these people seriously enough: we call them "fundies," and "rwn's" which tends to trivialize them. They are organized, they are dangerous, and we should consider them as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:29 AM

I had never heard that, Mark, though they did say at the beginning of this movie version that it was based on teh play you mentioned. The acting was really superb.

pdc, I use "fundies" or whatever as an economy/shorthand of language. When I write op/ed pieces for publication or talk to people, I make sure to spell it out and I have never not taken them seriously. I just wish more people would!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Renegade
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:36 PM

My God. All these posts, and not a conservative rebuttal among them?

Here's one:

I live and work in a semi-rural community in Ohio, USA; I am a college graduate, and hold a white collar job.

I actually have the temerity to consider myself pretty normal, and maybe share the same likes/dislikes as you elites: I don't smoke or drink; I don't make moonshine; I don't slop pigs, or do funny things with sheep; I don't chase my daughters around the house; I don't go to NASCAR races, although a lot of friends do. And I listen to NPR in morning and evening drive times, until their slanted viewpoint forces a station change.

Even though I reside where I do, as a rational adult, I can make my own decisions, and judge for myself. Most of those I know can too, believe it or not.

And, guess what? I am a student of this nation's history, too. And, I love this country as much as you all profess to love it.

And guess what else?

A lot of us illiterates like to watch Fox News, whether it's slanted or not. A lot of us, myself included, think it's about damn time we can see and hear a conservative or moderate view in mainstream media.

Out here in East Jesus, OH, as in most places I go (as a travelling salesman) most people don't talk politics. They're just not that worried about current events. That doesn't mean they are uninformed, or ill-informed; it doesn't mean they are unconcerned; it just means that they believe us to be in pretty good hands.

When people do talk, they seem, as do my friends and neighbors, to believe that the current administration is handling an enormous problem about as well as can be expected.

God forbid someone thinks that, but it's true.

(Aside #1: Sorry, no moderate or conservative I know wants to see anyone suffer injury or death, and sorry again, but foremost, no one I know wants to see Americans die.

Aside #2: You outdid yourselves this time. It only took 4 or 5 posts for someone to raise the childish liberal cry: "It's like Nazi Germany, I tell ya!!!!" Usually it takes the 15th-20th post for someone, running out of a real argument, pulls the old Hitler cliche out.)

And, believe it or not, a lot of us are glad we are not sitting around waiting for another tragedy like 9-11; a lot of us support pre-emptive moves like Iraq. A lot of us believe that if someone's gotta be the 800 lb. gorilla sitting in the middle of that middle east mess, that 800 lb. gorilla had better be the United States Army.

Last, a lot of us support an administration that, at the very least, TOOK ACTION. God save us from a Clinton/Gore democrat; if Clinton were in office, 9-11 would be all about him. If Gore, we'd still be debating a proportionate response to 9-11, and wondering why they hate us so much. (We Neanderthals, by the way, don't much care why they hate us.)

Ultimately, my point is:   

You are not the only enlightened ones in this country, or in the world. Others, just as fast, bright, smug and arrogant as you, like myself, can and do hold a completely different opinion. And the beauty of this country is we get to vote about it, so we'll see you in Nov. '04.

The question this election won't be: are you better off? It will be: do you feel safer? Us poor backward country folk, not knowing any better, who can't figure it out ourselves, and being brain-washed, will just do whatever Fox tells us.

All kidding aside: field your best team, because we will.   

Thanks
Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:11 PM

if Clinton were in office, 9-11 would be all about him.

Correction: the GOP Congress would MAKE it about him, to the tune of 12 million dollars or more with Ken Starr at the head of it!

All the same, thanks for posting!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:16 PM

Bill:

I'm sorry if the dialogue on this thread has upset you in some way. I appreciate your viewpoints as expressed. I am moved to ask what the "enormous problem" was that the current administration is handling as well as it could be handled. Do you mean the enormous problem of sadistic tyranny in Iraq? Of their aggressive WMD program? Their intimate links with Al Queda and the 9-11 attacks? Or are you referring to the post-war situation of drawn-out guerrilla/terrorist counter-attacks?

In any case, I have yet to see a rebuttal for the core issues. But if your political views are essentially adversarial -- and your whole post indicates they are -- we won't have a lot to discuss anyway, because I see little intention to communicate. Maybe that's the difference between "liberals" and "conservatives". We prefer to solve problems by communication, not by harder hitting, as long as that is a viable option.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:35 PM

Hey, Bill, I hope you don't have me confused with whoever it is you're talking about...

I don't have you confused with whoever it is you think most of the people on this thread are talking about.

You might be interested to know that in Canada hardly any of your US media is seen as anything but conservative (with a very few rare exceptions). You guys are living in a world of your own down there...a self-created thought bubble. What you see as "liberal", most of the world sees as rather to the right of center, and there is not one other nation in the World whose population (a majority of them, I mean) supported your pre-emptive war of aggression on Iraq, other than Israel. A few governments supported it. Their people did not.

Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was not a friend of Al Queda. Iraq was not involved in attacking the WTC. They hate the USA, yes...and they have plenty of reason to by now. The whole Third World hates the USA by now. The Turkish population hates the USA, but their government just agreed to send troops to Iraq. Why? Because they need American financial assistance for their ailing economy. 80% of the Turkish population is against assisting the American occupation...so tell me...does America really want a healthy, functioning democracy in Turkey? I don't think so. America wants an obedient client state...just like the obedient client states Russia had when the Warsaw Pact was still alive.

Dont make the mistake that Third Worlders hate the USA because the USA is democratic. Good God, no! Virtually all Third Worlders want democracy passionately, except for the few despots at the top, and most want modernization too, while desirous of preserving their own culture at the same time. They hate the USA because they are deathly afraid of being invaded, colonized, bankrupted, bombed, and ruled from afar against their will by the World's one reigning superpower.

I see you as a reasonable, intelligent guy, Bill...who is a product of his environment. I would probably be quite happy to have you as a neighbour. I'm not at all surprised you see things the way you do.

The next tragedy like 911 will not be prevented by terrorizing the rest of the World. It will be hastened by so doing. How long before it's a nuke in a suitcase? And then what innocent, distant country will pay the price for the New Roman Empire's megalomaniac ambitions and its need to defend what it buys out or what it steals from those less powerful?

The whole World is afraid of the USA. Very afraid. You are living in a rogue nation.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:41 PM

Knowing basic stuff is surely a good idea for any citizen in a democracy, Bill? For example, in this case, knowing that there is no reason whatsover to believe that Iraq had anything to do with September 11th - and George Bush has even said that he accepts that.

How people choose to vote and the opinions they hold about what needs to be done are something else entirely. But I'd have assumed that there'd be agreement across political lines that ignorance about such things is pretty worrying and pretty shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 05:09 PM

And the question is, "Do I feel safer?"   No! I feel much less safe as a result of the USA's pre-emptive war of aggression on a country that has done absolutely nothing to realistically threaten the USA. I feel a lot less safe now when I go to the USA too, because it's a country in the grip of fear-based propaganda that is right out of control. Your democracy is vanishing, Bill, in the name of Homeland Security.

If pre-emptive war is considered justifiable by one nation, it will be considered so by others.

Pre-emptive war IS terrorism. Your government has practiced terrorism before too...in Vietnam, in the Phillipines, in Nicaraugua, in El Salvador, and in many, many other places. Terrorizing those who will not cooperate is its stock in trade. Your goverment was tried and found guilty by the World Court in the 1980's for doing just that in Nicaragua....and totally ignored that ruling. What does that tell the World at large? That your government is an outlaw. The opinion of the World means no more to the USA than it did to Hitler or Stalin. All that matters to the USA is firepower, and you guys have got it coming out your ears.

I have felt a lot less safe for quite some time now, even in a relatively safe place like Canada. If my government were not quietly complicit in selling your military all the arms it wants and providing you with natural resources at a good price, we would probably have been taken over openly by now too, under some pretext. (You may not know it, but Canada is a very significant arms supplier to the US military. We've got lots of high tech industry here making stuff for American wars, whether our people support those wars or not.) That's the great thing about free enterprise...it doesn't really give a damn whose hand it places the murder weapon in as long as it makes the sale.

You can honor God and Life...or you can honor the dollar. Guess which one it is in America?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 06:01 PM

Little Hawk For President! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:40 PM

McGrath, it occurs to me to wonder whether Blair got into the position he's in partly because people perceived him as likeable?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 01:52 AM

Well said, LH, in your last two postings, esp.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:29 AM

"...it occurs to me to wonder whether Blair got into the position he's in partly because people perceived him as likeable? "

I'd say the answer is yes - but the people concerned were the Labour Party activists, and they were judging what they thought ordinary people liked. I doubt very much whether the people who made him leader of the Labour Party particularly liked him then or like him now.

I also doubt whether that many ordinary people particularly liked him when they voted Labour to get rid of the Tories and to keep them out. I don't think "liking" really comes into it too much.

The symbolic question people ask about politicians often is "would you buy a used car from him", which is about pereceived hmnesty and also to some extent about competence, but not about likeability.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:33 PM

Bobert asked me to put this link in here...it's an interesting op/ed piece in the Washington Post, today. I guess it got a lot of discussion on Pacifica.:-)

kat