BS: Death Penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

Quietly and quickly does very much increases the likelihood of executing of innocent people. But then, most times, if they are dead noone is going to dig up the evidence proving they were wrongly convicted, so perhaps it's less embarrassing than having this evidence turned up after they've spent years in prison, or on Death Row.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:27 PM

ClintonHammond said do it when we are sure. I agree. The problem is that the people we pay to 'be sure' for us often screw up. Again I'll mention Marshall and Nepoose. The cops pooched it in both cases. Therefore, how do we define certain?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: open mike
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:28 PM

The Center for Attitudinal Healing, started by
Jerry Jampolsky basically defines that the opposite
of love is not hate, the opposite of love is fear.
The priciples of this organization are symbolized
by a woman ( i htink she might have been in Idaho)
whose son was killed. She eventually pardoned the
convicted killer so completely that she adopted him.
this is, or course an extraordinary story, but it
shows how love can overcome.

I am not advocating that if you give them enough love,
hateful, fearful killers will be rehabilitated, and I
do not know the outcome of the people in the story, but
I am trying to find mention of these people, as this
woman was able to give unconditional love and that is
so rare.

On the other hand, if serial killers were stopped early
many lives would be saved...so one life sacrificed for
the greater good of the survival of their future victims
would be good.

I always have trouble justifying how the people who
often approve of the death penalty are against abortion.
If life is so sacred , why is it different at different
ages and stages?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:33 PM

I'm pro-choice as well...

I think it's funny that most of the people who are against abortion are people no one wants to f#ck in the first place... but that's off topic... so I won't say it...

"people we pay to 'be sure' for us often screw up."

Define 'often'... some say, "One is too many"... I don't agree with them...

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM

Clinton..........are you suggesting that there have been executions in the past where they were NOT certain? Is that why innocent people were executed?

Our judicial system has proved time and time again that it is not infallible, so how can we justify handing out a sentence that is irrevocable?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

Because NO system is infallible, nor will one ever be...

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

Which is the perfect reason for handing out custodial sentences as opposed to death sentences.

I rest your case m'lud.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM

"Because NO system is infallible, nor will one ever be..."

that is exactly the reason there should be no death penalty. you gladly, even eagerly, with your televised, popcorn, foam finger bullsh*t, want it to happen even when you admit mistakes will be made. if it was your brother, father, wife, etc. on the receiving end of such a mistake i'll bet you'd sing a different tune.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:07 PM

If.. so many ifs...

I'd worry about the ifs IF they happened....

Face it folks... I'm pro death penalty, and nothing anyone here says will ever change that...

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:22 PM

I think it's funny that most of the people who are pro death penalty are people noone wants to f#ck in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:33 PM

Mmmm ! - I have no problem with the right of a community to defend it's self, and be it war, or be it the death penalty, well, that is just a question of extent.

I am against the Death penalty as part of the judicial process because of the strain it could put a jury under. Given the possibility of error by a Jury, and this has happened, there is the danger of a wrong decision. To the extent that perhaps murderers and the like who were guilty have walked free. And that is equally a miscarridge of justice.

There is also the problem, as I percieve, it of American Justice, if your poor and/or black you die. If your wealthy ......

And what is it in Texas - new evidence is time limited ???

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM

Cruiser;

I mean no disrespect but one cannot got from being a devout Christain to being an atheist... It's really not possible....

Church attender to atheist? Sure.

Alter boy to atheist? Sure.

But once you are hooked up, it's like riding bicycle 'er breathing....

Like I said, I mean no dierespect...

Now back to the basics. Like I said earlier, we either believe in the sanctity of life or we don't...

So it's still a resoundin' *no*....

Bobert

Subject: The Anglican View from the Three-Legged Stool
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM

Although I am most certainly a believing and professing Christian, it is not the only source for my values and beliefs. It's easy to assume that everything that comes from me is Bible-centered, but it's not accurate. Also, even from just the view of me as Christian, us Anglicans are usually a pretty hard lot to pin down on any issue-- we keep insisting on bringing a third view into situations most folks are content to polarize-- for us, we look to Scripture, Tradition, AND Reason. We call it our three-legged stool, and it often seems like we can sit on it temporizing all damn day. Why? Cuz it's one way we pray, as we look around us with the 365 degree view a stool affords, keeping all three legs under us, resisting offers to cut off any of them-- and persisting in reflecting on the mysteries visible from that place. Me, I like to spin on mine. Hardi, on the other hand, enjoys the fiddle tune, "The Stool of Repentance." Go figure.

There is still no substitute for actually getting to know a human being. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:55 PM

Good point, WYS-------. Yeah, sometimes that is our only perspective but, just as in the three legged stool, faith is paramount becuase, like life, it runs on the ragged edge of possibilities...

Three legged stools' 'er not, I'm still opposed to that a state that justifies killing people...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:57 PM

Zackelly, Bobert, zackelly. But faith can have so many VIEWPOINTS! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:21 AM

ClintonHammond

're "One is too amny", I don't agree with them.'

You first!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: LadyJean
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:58 AM

Lawyers, judges, and juries are all fallible people. If you lock someone like Hurricane Carter up for life, you can, when he is proven innocent, say "Ooops!" and let him go. That is my chief objection to capital punishment.
My other objection is that it's much too nice for most killers. A child killer either does time in solitary, or risks his life among his fellow inmates, who will be only too happy to beat the tar out of him. This goes double for a child molester.
Charles Manson's women weren't executed. Instead they have to live, every day with the knowledge that they followed a lunatic, and killed innocent people. They aren't happy about it. If Timothy McVeigh had been allowed to live, he might have come to a similar conclusion. McVeigh, incidentally HATED being in prison, and was happy to be executed. Which is a great reason to let him live!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 03:26 AM

Shoot the buggers!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:48 AM

Bugger the shooters...

(A case for prison?)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:08 AM

Let me say that first: I'm against death penalty but I would kill tyrants in some situations.

Two arguments I have read here I consider not well thought:

(1) How someone can be against death penalty with the argument that life imprisonment is the worse sentence I cannot understand.

(2) 'One's too many' is a bad argument. It is a decision under uncertainty and it has two possibilities of error: An innocent man is sentenced and a guilty man walks free. You cannot eliminate both errors at the same time, you only can minimise one error at the expense of the other one.

Surely you all remember enough cases in which a (later found guilty) man has walked free and has been caught after some more ugly murders. Would you say about the women tortured before being killed 'one's too many' and therefore plead for life imprisonment at the slightest suspicion? You wouldn't.

'One's too many' is an emotional appeal without giving a deep thought.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:44 AM

We tend to argue this, as we argue other things, one a case-by-case basis, almost ad hominem. (I have no single case in mind here. This is a composite of cases I know of.)

Consider it this way instead: if someone is convicted of serial murder -- and I mean that the his fingerprints and DNA were found on the bodies, on the axe the dead were chopped up with, in the garage where the chopping was done, on the videotapes he made when he was doing the killing, on the clothing of the victims, and on the plates and utensils he ate parts of his victims with -- would the greatest good for society be served by his execution or by letting him live out his life in prison?

In prison, there is the possibility of escape or even release. With execution, there is no hope of studying him, of finding out what made him the way he became. With execution, there is also no possibility of him repeating horrific crimes.

Don't consider vengenance or "closure" in your answer -- look only to serving the greatest good for society.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 09:25 AM

I always have trouble justifying how the people who
often approve of the death penalty are against abortion.
If life is so sacred , why is it different at different
ages and stages?

Very true. And it applies the other way round as well.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

A couple of very interesting and well balanced posts from Rapaire and Wolfgang (as usual). I am not really in agreement though with the conclusions you have drawn.
First of all Wolfgang, I think the, "One's too many" argument is very convincing indeed. The state's judgement has to be based on an absolute conviction (as far as possible) that the sentenced man deserves the punishment. We are talking about the state's responsibility - and not that of a revenge killer in a seventies vigilante movie.
Oddly enough, the argument that life imprisonment is worse than execution - which I personally agree with - does not necessarily make it a better deterrent. I would expect most convicted murderers to react emotionally rather than rationally.
The debate on this thread so far seems to have focused very much on the worst case scenario - in reality a very small minority of all murderers.
That brings me to Rapaire's point, which is that if the guilt in a horrendous crime is beyond all doubt, does there have to be a case for execution?
I'll come out with the NOs on that one. A murderer who leaves so much evidence around that his conviction cannot be in any doubt is in fact a bloody fool. However, a truly devious, calculating murderer sets out to leave very little evidence indeed. Who is more deserving of punishment? Who is more likely to receive it? I am against the death penalty because I believe it undermines the justice system. I have very little sympathy with most executed criminals, but that is irrelevant. It's not a beauty contest. My feelings are best left out of it - unless we want to have a Sharia style of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:00 PM

in a nutshell... 1. the state should not have the right to execute its citizens. if it does, that right WILL be abused, innocent people will be killed and racism and politics will figure into the policies of execution. 2. if you say you are a Christian yet believe in the death penalty you are a hypocrite. Ultimate judgement for wrongdoing is left for God according to Christian principles. To maintain our civilized society vicious criminals should be removed from society for life. Don't want to pay for it? it's the price of civilization and moral clarity.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:14 PM

"To maintain our civilized society vicious criminals should be removed from society for life"

At a cost of no more than 35 cents each...

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:03 PM

About 30 years ago, I worked in the corrections system in my home state. At the time, I believed in Capital Punishment.

Many of the inmates were really nasty people, one of whom accidently got out and killed his therapist "because she was unfaithful to me." He then fled the state and lived quietly for most of the last 30 years before turning himself in for that crime. It was decided that this murder was an artifact of his insanity and that his ability to successfully live in society should weigh in his favor. He is now serving a [relatively] brief sentence to complete his previous sentence and will be released soon. Is he worthy of the death penalty? Maybe, maybe not. At the time of the crime, I would have sentenced him for killing a colleague, even though he had gotten out on a pass that she signed for him.

A year or two ago, I listened as two Muslim terrorists were sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. They were involved in something which ended in significant loss of life. As they believed they were participating in Jihad, they wanted to be sentenced to death, so they could be martyred and go to Paradise. They were sentenced to life in prison without parole.

If we cannot reasonably sentence people to death for mass murder, despite their potential, hypothetical innocence, how can we reasonably sentence anyone to death? What is the effect on the souls of the executioners?

As Gandhi replied when asked about his thoughts on Western Civilization: "I think it would be a very good thing." Perhaps we should take a leaf from his book and allow time to sort things out without hurrying them along.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:21 PM

A young man was arrested this week in our metropolitan area for drowning the two year old boy of his girlfriend. He has admitted to taking the child from it's crib, walking hand in hand to the swimming pool at the apartment complex where the little boy lived, lowering him into the pool, and holding him under the water until he was no longer breathing.

No question in my mind at all that this young man should be put to death. Later news stories indicate the mother of the child was an accomplice to the deed. If so, she should join him on the table and also be injected with the fluid that will take the life from her.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:37 PM

If we must argue that it is wrong because of the falability of the justice system, then we must conclude that we cannot punish ANY crime.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

If we argue that imprisonment is a superiorly harsh punishment (as Frankham framed earlier) then the only humanitarian choice is death (the less cruel and unusual of the two).

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

^that was also me. JH

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

If the arguement is that all killing is killing, the best discussion has been framed already. We believe in many things that the government can do that the individual cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

If a psychchiatric report states that the murderer is insane would you traet them differently?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:45 PM

Why MUST one conclude no ability to distinguish between killing an guilty life via due process and killing an innocent life?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:46 PM

JH.........of course crimes can be punishable, but we have to be able to rectify our mistakes if we are saying that the system isn't infallible.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM

Given that the number of times a killer gets out and strikes again...

how can one draw the conclusion that there is NO deterent effect from capital punishment?

And how does that (ignored) number compare to the number of innocents ever put to death wrongly?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM

Any comparison is irrelevant. If we make a life sentence exactly that, a life sentence behind bars, then they won't reoffend and the innocent man won't be executed.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:52 PM

"JH.........of course crimes can be punishable, but we have to be able to rectify our mistakes if we are saying that the system isn't infallible."

Time served is just as irreversable as death.

If our whole justice system was based on its potential for failure we would not sentence anyone to any punishment.

If the punishment fits the crime then we are equally morally wrong in wrist slapping as we are in capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:54 PM

Time served as irreversable as death? The innocent people who have been released may differ with your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM

"Any comparison is irrelevant. If we make a life sentence exactly that, a life sentence behind bars, then they won't reoffend and the innocent man won't be executed."

Even if I granted that solution for recitivism (I don't. Too many life sentences are commuted), By your (the anti-capital punishmnet side's) reconning, the imperfect judicial sustem is inflicting lifetimie torture upon an innocent man. (remember? he's innocent -- that's why we connot put him to death)

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:59 PM

"The innocent people who have been released may differ with your opinion."

Sure, but they'd be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:06 PM

The thing is, people can change. Believing that to be true is a pretty basic core belief for most Christians - not just them of course, but I pick them out because it's one of the reasons why there seems, to many people, something totally inconsistent and almost blasphemous about Christians favouring ths kind of killing.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:09 PM

The innocents who have been released from prison have been so because of tireless campaigning/new evidence/proof that the original evidence was tampered with/a retrial/an appeal....how indepth would an investigation be on a dead man?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

McGrath,
You a Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:28 PM

JH, excuse me-- are you reading a post and then posting a reply, before reading the next posts? If so, this is not the best way to contribute in a forum like this one-- it's best to group your replies to a number of posts, all in one reply. Just indicate with each paragraph who you are addressing, and what comment they made that you are responding to.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM

Evidence has recently surfaced that there may have been more conspirators in the Oklahoma City bombing for which Timothy McVey was executed. The only person who would know with certainty is dead. He can never be asked.

There have been numerous cases of multiple muderers, Ted Bundy for example, being executed with questions about how many crimes they actually may have been responsible for still unanswered. Unidentified bodies that turn up years later could possibly be tied to convicted muderers, but nobody's ever going to know for certain if said murderer has been executed.

Execution is final. Any questions that didn't get answered before the sentence is imposed may as well just go unasked.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM

You got something against Christians, JH?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:45 PM

only that if you ain't one you shouldn't be speakin' for 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

It would be quite fair to point out that people were being untrue to the basic beliefs of their religion, even when if wasn't my own religion - I don't have to be a Muslim to know that stuff like September 11 and March 11 are way out of line with Islamic doctrines and traditions.

And I don't have to be a Christian to believe the same about the kind of killing that gets referred to as "the Death Penalty". (Though, being a practicing Catholic, I am one, as it happens.)

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

So do we take it that you have been wrongfully imprisoned for a crime you did not commit? Because YOU have chosen to speak on behalf of them.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:07 PM

Sorry McG....above was directed to JH.