BS: Libs- Beware of......

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:21 PM

There is no way for any of us to decide what is right or wrong,

Pardon me? More post-modern relativist bullshit, or what?

PS: as hs been proven repreatedly, IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11th !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:25 PM

I empathize with your wishes for mutual tolerance, susu.

Puzzled by a couple of your comments, though...

How do you figure that England, Ireland, and Scotland are not democratic societies? Have you discussed that with any UK citizens?

Just what IS a democratic society, in your opinion?

And what is "freedom"? Is it one simple thing...or is it many things?

Most people who fight a war are consciously fighting for the freedom to run the agenda in a certain way that their country is in favour of, aren't they? (at the cost of someone else's freedom to run it differently!)

Just because your leaders TELL you that they are fighting for "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true. :-) What they are usually really fighting for is money, resources, and control of money and resources. They want to be FREE to do it their way... :-)

I also strive to love and understand all people, and I do appreciate that people on the other side of any political debate are normally standing up for what they consider to be good human values. That's always been the case just about everywhere you could care to mention. An army that simply does not believe in its own values is an army that will quickly collapse, EVEN if it's armed in a way totally equivalent to its opponents.

A badly out-classed army on the other hand (like that of Poland in '39 or Iraq in 2003) will quickly collapse regardless of whether or not they believe in their own side's values...in which case they will lose the freedom to run their agenda in the way they see fit.

No society has perfect freedom. Some have more freedom, some have less. Every society is a compromise between total freedom (which is not feasible) and total control (which is not feasible either). I have found Canada to be a bit freer in some respects than the USA, although they are both reasonably free, in the modern sense. I suspect they are both less free than some other places...in some respects...and more free, in others.

For a society to claim that it is fighting carte blanche for "freedom" is often just grand rhetoric used to camouflage and legitimize moves of aggressive self-interest. Most wars are fought for ownership and control, not for freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:27 PM

Why not Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland? They are not democratic societies...

"confused" don't half cover it. Try fu$kwitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

Let me clarify, my point on mentioning other countries was not that I did not think that they are not actually a democrtic society, but to point out that who are we to decide what system works best for other countries?
Little Hawk posted this..."Just because your leaders TELL you that they are fighting for "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true. :-) What they are usually really fighting for is money, resources, and control of money and resources. They want to be FREE to do it their way... :-)"
Which is what I meant but am obviously not as articulate as others when it comes to matters of politics. As for my opinion on a democratic society, for me it is when the majority of citizens feel that whatever governmental body they have works for them. They have a say in what effects them, and that they have the right not hold those in charge accountable for actions that violate human rights, am I wrong? I do not however feel that our country has the right to decide whether that is true for other countries or not. If they ask us for help that would be one thing, but to simply go in and do it on the assumption that "it is what they need" is wrong. So my reference to other countries did not mean I thought they were not a democratic society, heck I have a hard enough time understanding this country, much less one I do not live in. As for what I think freedom is... It isn't simple, and it isn't free. But what it is PPSSSHHHAAAWW! I enjoy many freedoms, I can go to the church of my choice, I can say what I think and not fear for my life, but sadly even in this country not everyone has that, I know that there are people who are members of the Arryian (sp?) society who kill peole based on their beliefs such as Muslims, Jews, etc. So you are correct there is no totally free society. Which is sad.

Greg F. stated, "IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11th !!!" I didn't say that it did, did I? I think what I said was "I do not presume to know what the true motivation for us being in Iraq/Afghanistan are, but after Sept. 11, I do not want to see our country attacked like that again, yet I personally feel that we should at least be trying to ease out by now, and let them control their own country." meaning that if there was a chance that anyone may be trying to plan an attack on us, I would not want that to happen again. I then went on to say, "I wish there was another way for us to help them achieve freedom, and maybe there was, but sadly it wasn't implemented if there was, and so sadly, what's done is done." I am sure that at some point Saddam needed to be ousted, but I did put in my post that we seem to be the ones who are always imposing freedom and our POV's on other countries. And I also feel as though Viet Nam was alot like this, but I honestly do not know enough about that to be sure. Let me say this too, I oppose drafting of soldiers unless we are truly defending ourselves, i.e. if we were invaded on our own soil, not just an attack in which we are retaliating. But not to fight someone else's war. I guess I am as clear as mud now.
There is no need to attack me, based on my views, they may just need to be clarified, I hope this effort did that. And if I missed answering a question, pleas draw my attention to it, as it is a mere oversight, not intentional, Thanks, Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:11 AM

You make perfectly good sense, susu, you're just not as experienced a debater as some of us are, and people will leap gleefully on any little slip-up in your presentation...naturally. That's what most people are like when they're debating.

(it's like scoring points in a boxing match) :-)

I think it's fairly clear that Saddam would have been ousted not too far down the road anyway. Seems like his older son was carefully planning a coup to overthrow the old man, but it got pre-empted by the Iraq war. His son might have been as bad or worse, of course. So might any other given successor. I'm afraid the Iraqis have been virtually guaranteed a bad time almost regardless of what happened. They weren't well off under Saddam. They aren't well off being invaded and occupied by the USA. They won't be well off when the USA leaves. God help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM

First, I want to say that I was fully aware that people were going to get upset by what I said in my post @ 11:02 but again, and as LH so astutely observed, I am not an experienced debater. Please bear with me, I am trying to be clear, but often times what makes sense to me gets misconstrued. That's okay, all I ask is that you be patient with me.
Second, I must apologize to all you seasoned catters, I was informed that I should probably break my posts into paragraphs to make it easier to read and follow. I realize that has nothing to do with my inability to convey my message clearly, that is all on me, but I will try to be more structured and organized in the future, and welcome any other suggestions on how to post effectively from you guys.

LH, I agree, no matter when we leave things will be worse for them, as I do not forsee them ever being strong enough to take over from here (wherever that is). It is alot like enabling an alchoholic for so many years and then expecting them to deal with their problem on their own, cold turkey. Cruel if you ask me, because up to that point they actually have a false sense of security. I had something else pertainent to say, but I have been up for 20 hours and my brain can't remember it now. May I reserve the right to post it later if I think of it?
Anyway, thanks for your patience with me everyone as I am still learning. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:03 AM

Question; What did the republican party ever do for the working man but to work him to death, then throw him away?

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:09 PM

Little Hawk

Many of the ones who think they are serious debaters are really serious masterbaters I believe.

I don't come here to debate as it is a complete waste of time and energy. I would rather work on my own agenda and that is to riducule the complete bullshit they spout.

Many so called de/master baters here are some pretty big enemies of America. I don't take them or their lives very seriously.

they accomplish very little.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

... hey, those were my hockey comments *sniff sniff*

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

Pretty big enemies of America?

Object to the actions of the current administration, yes, but objecting to things that you think the govenment is doing wrong is being a patriot, not being an enemy. You talk like Joe McCarthy. But then, you probably admire Joe McCarthy. There was a REAL enemy of America.

As far as de/master/bating is concerned, get a grip on yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:58 PM

He already does get a grip on himself Diogenes. That's what made him blind to the right of others to express their opinions without being personally attacked by him. Ignore the clown! He's not worth the energy.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

Don

You can give your opinions.

I reserve the right to tell you if I think it's full of crap, but you don't want to hear that, do you? If you feel so personally attacked, consider growing some skin, you whiner.

Your grip on your schmuck definately has an effect on what you spew.

Dog Genes, you are about as much a patriot here as a french poodle with a dingleberry driving it crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

Martin, my pal, ahhhhh, I hate to break this to you but you have marginialized yourself here... Not too many folks expect much more than what you come up with, which is okay wid me... Yer like a commercial break... But again, that's fine with me. I think your posts are a hoot but I wouldn't be thinking that the ridicule anyone more than they ridicule you...

...but please don't quit... Sometimes it's nice knowing that there's someone in the room with a whoppy cushion just to break the ice, so to speak...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

Oh, for sure, Martin...the debaters accomplish very little...but it's just something to DO, that's all. And it enhances the speaker's sense of personal identity. Some people like watching football. Some like playing video games. Some enjoy archery. Others enjoy debating.

As the archer enjoys trying to hit the target, or the golfer enjoys trying to sink a putt, so the debater enjoys the mental challenges of the debate.

People have restless minds. They search around for something to engage those restless minds.

That's really all there is to it. A truly enlightened person would not spend hours a day debating with people on an Internet forum, that's for sure, because he'd have WAY better things to do, and be quite happy to leave other people to their own devices while he did those better things. :-)

Which makes me question: "Why am I on this forum so much?"

Because I've still got a restless mind, that's why. And it's become a habit. And it's fun, of course. The unenlightened mind is constantly seeking fun and variety, just like a restless monkey...and is FULL of opinions and the desire to defeat opposing opinions.

Meantime, Life itself moves magestically on and God is God and no one can do a darned thing about it. :-)

Man, I WISH I could conquer my restless mind...and I could, if I wasn't so inclined to be lazy and just let it keep running the show for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM

Writing something down requires that one clarify it in one's own mind. If nothing else, that in itself justifies this forum. Of course, if all one does is belch and break wind, there is no thought there to clarify. It just contributes to the air pollution problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM

"the unenlightened mind is constantly seeking fun and variety, just like a restless monkey." Is it because I'm "unenlightened" that I find that an odd thought, L.H.? Does an "enlightened" mind operate on some superior level where fun and variety have been put away as childish things? If so, I don't think I wanta go there.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

Yes, it's good training in developing both thinking and writing skills. No doubt about that. I've learned a fair bit on the past few years on this forum. One thing I've learned is how not to get offended nearly so easily as I used to.

But it's a lot safer here than it is in real life...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM

Well I have to say that things around here are alot more enjoyable to me now that I have an understanding of people here, and now that I understand certain key phrases on the mud. I was wondering... Is it called Mud Cat because there is alot of mud clinging and the opinions here are viewed as stinky like a catfish? Or is it that just like a Mud Cat sometimes you must go really deep to get to what you want? Just some rambling thoughts I've had, but Mr. Genes, I do not think it takes clarity of mind to write things down... just read some of my posts, but make sure they are not signed Susu's Hubby as that is a whole other type of rambling going on there! Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:22 PM

No, frogprince, not exactly like that. Now, keep in mind, I am not enlightened, therefore I can only speak from a fractional knowledge about the matter...but this is my understanding of it:

An enlightened mind experiences absolute joy continuously (regardless of outer conditions). Under such a circumstance, "fun" would begin to seem a bit trivial wouldn't it? That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with wanting to have fun, it just means there is something much larger and more satisfying than fun, that's all.

Children do seek out childish things, and people in an ordinary state of mind are comparatively childish. They want fame, possessions, money, sensual enjoyments, little ego victories over others, power over others, and so on. That's childish, relatively speaking, but it makes perfect sense on its own level.

The enlightened mind loves all beings. The ordinary mind loves only a few individuals to whom it is attracted for some reason, and disregards the rest. The enlightened mind never stops loving. The ordinary mind can quickly turn what it calls "love" into hatred if it doesn't get what it wants. Thus, its love turns out to be somewhat counterfeit in nature, as it was not unconditional in the least.

The enlightened mind forgives. The ordinary mind harbours resentments and holds grudges.

The enlightened mind enjoys the variety of Life tremendously, but does not need to seek it, because it already has it. The ordinary mind is bored and frustrated with much of life, and imagines that there are a few "special" things out there that would make life way better...but they're usually on the "other side of the fence". There IS no other side of the fence for the enlightened mind.

I like fun and variety, just as much as you do, I'm sure, and my statement was not intended to brand fun and variety as bad things...it was intended to indicate how restless and driven the normal mind is. It's never satisfied for long. It's an emptiness that seemingly cannot be filled, and it experiences almost constant stress. It chatters constantly, like a monkey. It's like a body of water that's all whipped up into many disturbed waves...and thus cannot reflect anything accurately.

The enlightened mind is like that same body of water become still and tranquil, whereby it is allowed to reflect the whole of creation in a true and accurate manner. If I was there already, I probably wouldn't be HERE (typng messages on this forum, I mean).

I mean, really, would Gandhi or Buddha be amusing themselves by chatting on an Internet music forum if they were alive at this moment? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM

And enlightened people DO have fun, but they don't seek it from a position of want and need...the way the monkey mind constantly does. It's the monkey mind that keeps me coming back to this forum, but I try to seek enlightenment at the same time. It's an interesting process to observe, but a very hard one to control.

I consider Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna to have been very enlightened beings, and there have been many others. Most of them moved quietly through the World and were not been remembered by history at all. That is also the way of a Taoist master. He/she usually does not attract people's attention but passes by without notice, being in perfect harmony with the World. It's those who are seriously out of harmony who attract attention, usually, but an enlightened person can take on a special task in the World, as Jesus did, as Buddha did, in which case he is doing it as an act of mercy to help take others TO enlightenment and free them from suffering...NOT to found yet more churches and religious orders with yet more rules to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM

susu - I have no idea why this place is called "Mudcat Cafe". I suggest you start a thread asking why.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

Actually, Littlehawk, I'm just as glad you don't feel too
"enlightened" to spend some time here with us; I doubt if I'm the only one around here who finds you a remarkable mixture of genuine
profound thoughtfulness and strange flakiness. :) I guess I still seek "fun" sometimes, but it's just as apt to jump on me from somewhere unexpected. I think *seeking* for "joy" would be almost a contradiction in terms; on a couple of occasions I've gone looking for a little fun, and found joy instead; but as a deliberate plan I don't think that'll ever fly. I would say that I've had a good measure of joy *given* to me along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM

Well gol danged if this danged thread ain't gone left...

Who cares? Ya' all just carry on 'bout ant danged thing ya want...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:55 PM

Thanks, frogprince. The "flakiness" you mention is for two reasons...

1. I'm rather unconventional in some ways.

2. I often say weird things here just for fun, and to relieve stress (both mine and other people's). :-) I find this helps to mend fences with even my most ardent political opponents...but Wolfgang remains a bit of a challenge for me to get along with at times. Wolfgang is very smart, but radically different from me in a certain basic philosophical sense, and we seem to annoy each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:10 PM

There are ones who are enlightened truly and then there are those that have to act enlightened and are constantly looking for ways to justify their existance and push their self-serving enlightenment down everyone's throats.

Sorry if that sounds like more than a few here.

But I do have fun Little Hawk. So did Groucho with Margaret DuMont.