DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorceseDocumentary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM

Someone should correct the title of this thread. It is Scorsese, no "c" in it. That may be moot if they are combined, however.

Here's a link to the program.

SRS

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorceseDocumentary
From: number 6
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

"ow many here, given such lightning speed of a career and in the context of those tumultuous times think that they would have handled themselves better than Dylan did? How many here - or anywhere - would not have flamed out?"

So true Ebbie .... I was explaining that point to someone today, this individual was born out of that era and couldn't grasp the whole Dylan phenomeonon.

I enjoyed both episodes and will also purchase the DVD.

sIx

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: mooman
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:38 AM

Saw Part 2 as well. Even better than Part 1.

Mesmerizing and historic stuff and I particularly enjoyed the clip of Bob singing my favourite "Visions of Johanna", plus the associated footage of those heady times.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:44 AM

What came out loud and clear is that he has always been who he is, not who his fans want him to be, nor how the rest of the world perceived him to be. I thought the way he handled all the really stupid questions that have been put to him was superb - not merely put-downs (which would have been easy) but a clear indication of his bemusement at the perceptions people had of him and the boxes they wanted to put him in.

The protestors came across as ridiculous; just the same as the jaundiced, anal views expressed about him on this forum now and again....and again. He never, ever, claimed to be politically aware, so any jibes about his politics demonstrate a 100% misunderstanding of what he was about - ask Joan Baez (wasn't she great). And anyone who knows anything about him will know that there never was a Dylan Thomas connection. Though the "pundits" widely claim that Thomas was his "favourite poet", Dylan categorically denies that, and particularly denies that is where the name came from, no matter how it's pronounced. In fact, he was Dylan long before he discovered poetry and long before he ever wrote a proper song.

Altogether a fantastic film that shows his brilliance and confirms the almost total adulation of his peers then and now. And in his quiet way, "Bob Dylan now" might just have stolen the show.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 06:13 AM

Excellent comments Terry.

MOOMAN.....Well ol' Bud, why am I not surprised that you too find "Visions of Johanna" a favorite? I was also pleased to hear Joan singing a rare one, "Percy's Song" in the background while Dylan typed. AND ... Another of my absolute favorites, "Lay Down Your Weary Tune" was used over the closing credits!

Spaw

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 07:25 AM

I've never met the man, so all I can say is, he wrote some great songs which I much prefer to hear someone else sing.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

Then I will sing them for you, Kendall. ;-) I am known by some around here as "George Dylan"...

It is a delight to read all the good thoughts and comments here.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:10 PM

That nasal whinging was more than I could bear, and that last song he did with Joan Baez was pitiful! He was way off key. So lost his photo should be on a milk carton.
Great songwriter, piss poor performer.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:31 PM

I was amazed and delighted that they ran the entire 'Lay Down Your Weary Tune' through the credits. I expected there to be a fade out

At Friday's song circle I will definitely be asking the Dylan songsters to do a few more of them.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

I have never been a fan of Bob Dylan and I am no more a fan now than I was before. I think the true artist here is Martin Scorsese. Not because of the way he showed Dylan but the way he showed a time in our lives around a focal point for that time. I will admit that no matter how much I am unimpressed by Bob Dylan as a musician and a writer I must admit he was a magnet that drew together people and causes.

As a kid from 1950 I was coming of age through the middle of all the things that shaped and charged my generation. Civil rights, assassinations, a stupid war, religious deconstruction, riots, rallies and constant change. All seemingly taking place in 15 years and coming to a head in 1970 or so. The music of the day being a focal point that seemed to change as each change in the society is taking place. I think Bob Dylan
By virtue of the fact that he was willing to change along with the times and take his music along with is what gives this movie its center.

I find it interesting that people claimed of him to be something he never claimed to be. I recall a number of times when he said he just wrote down words and it was every one else said they were poetry.   He maintains this stand to this day. This shows a constancy that is in itself admirable and worthy of mention.

It is also interesting as a film by the people who are not there at all or minimally mentioned. Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, Malvina Reynolds, Judy Collins, Carolyn Hester, Dick and Mimi Farina are a few. All of whom were shaped in some ways by the same times and moved in the same directions as Bob Dylan. And I think they too must have effected and been effected by Bob Dylan in greater or lesser ways.

So I will buy this film and watch it and enjoy it. Not because of Bob Dylan but because of how well this film tells the story of a pivotal point in my life. And Bob Dylan just happens to be the catalyst.

Don

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

A catalyst? Yes, he certainly was that. I find it interesting that while the folk establishment in '65-66 was hailing Phil Ochs as the torch bearer and Dylan as the "betrayer" of the folk movement, Phil Ochs himself was defending Dylan in letters to "Sing Out" magazine and telling them they were full of shit. Now, that's amusing! Bob always got a lot of respect from the vast majority of his fellow folk performers (despite personal differences...he and Ochs weren't on speaking terms at the time), and they were in a far better position to rate his performance and significance than the audience was, in my opinion. They knew more about it.

As Ochs pointed out, he was leading the way for all the rest of them. He showed the way to go, and the rest played catchup...some of them VERY well indeed, by the way!

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Steve-o
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

Hmmmmm- "unimpressed by Dylan as a writer"- you have to wonder what actually does impress some people. Yes, I'm missing Fielding, as he would have lots of insights here. I've been reading these posts with such pleasure, I forget who asked about a biography for Pete, but I have just finished a book that is very close- "Lonesome Traveler- the Life of Lee Hays", by Doris Willens. Fabulous- with lots of wonderful tales about those "earlier days", and Lee's life that constantly intertwined with Pete's life.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:00 PM

I was at the Newcastle concert in 1966 (shown in the opening clip)and had to suffer the dissent and walk outs from those around me, the same people who an hour earlier had been laughing with Bob, cheering and applauding his solo first half. Both "Bringing It All Back Home" and "Highway 61 Revisited" has been in the shops for months and "Blonde on Blonde2 was just about to hit the streets so surely they knew what to expect! Funny how nobody here has actually admitted to walking out of one of his concerts at that time. I would dearly love to know what sort of music has ben added to their record collections over the ensuing forty years.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM

DaveS - I would imagine that many of those people came around to understanding.   Change is never easy.   The fact that folk music did not die (as evidenced by Mudcat!) and the fact that Dylan remained creative, writing some of his greatest songs AFTER he "went electric", proves that he was right and his critics were wrong.   That doesn't mean everyone has to like his songs, but I do think that the overwhelming majority of "boos" came from people who did not want to see things change.

Also overlooked is how concert sound has changed over the years. I remember going to venues in my early days of concert going and the sound was awful. Going to the same venue in 2005, I often find myself remembering how bad it was and how good it sounds now. Not being able to hear clearly surely added to the discomfort of his critics back then.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:30 PM

C'mon Steve-O everyone knows Bobby Goldsboro wrote Dylan's really good tunes.

:-)))

Don

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: voyager
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM

I liked BOB JOHNSON's comments about BD's creative talents (
paraphrase here -

"He couldn't help it.
The man was kicked in the ass by God".

For what it's worth.

See also --
   Interview with Bob Johnson (Dylan Producer)

voyager

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:22 PM

Perhaps it was an accident,or a directors sleight of hand, but I like to think it was Scorseses little joke. A gentle reminder on the difference between fantasy and reality, on the hopelessness of the journey when you dont know the direction home.

In the Dylan film there was a small piece of newsreel footage, It showed student leader Mario Savio address a large crowd of protesters in front of the University of California in Berkeley. It was 3rd Dec 1964.

I've read the transcript of Savio's speech many times,but this was the first time I had heard him say the words, they were inspirational, full of certainty and direction.
Many believe that speech helped radicalise the youth of America, gave them strenght to win the battle for human rights and ultimately to hasten the end of the Vietnam war.

Some say Dylan epitomised an era, but contrasted with Mario Savios speech his verses are merely sound bites and word pictures.

Looking back as a great fan of Dylan, he now seems an univolved outsider. An amazing wordsmith, in the right place at the right time, carried along on a tide of political change and record company money. Insular emotionless an enigma.

Unfortunately, Dylan ,not Mario Savio became the voice of a generation....and today we've all been fucked .....Ake

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

I watched a program on PBS last night entitled, "Get Up, Stand Up: The Story of Pop and Protest."

Did anyone else see this?

Although not part of the Dylan program, it was a pretty good follow-up. Here's some info from one of the local PBS stations HERE and Some NY Times comments. Starts with the songs of Joe Hill ("No pamphlet, no matter how good, is ever read more than once, but a song is learned by heart and repeated over and over."). Comments by Oscar Brand, Bob Marley, Bruce Springsteen, Willie Nelson, and others, along with Pete Seeger and a whole bunch of people we just saw in the Dylan special. Check your local listings.

Reaffirms the idea that music can be, and still is, a real force in the world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM

Bob Dylan and Joan Baez singing together was pretty awful, wasn't it?   But I'd say that was more down to Joan. Beautiful voice, but a beautiful voice wasn't what was needed on those occasions, and with those songs.
.....................................

It strikes me there is a touch of Doctor Who about much of this.

You'd just get used to one Doctor, and learned to appreciate his idiosyncracies - and then, whoosh, and he'd regenerate and come back as a completely different person. And there'd always be loud complaints about how the new one wasn't a patch on the earlier one; and new viewers who'd come in at that point, and for the thisn one would always be the reral Doctor, and the earlier (and in time the later ones) were inferior.

Dylan's been much the same. We've all got our favourites or our pet-hates. But there's never been a Dylan yet who didn't come up with something I value that nobody else could coem up with.

Someone in the movie says how they talked of him as a shape-changer. And there was one point where Dylan was joshing about how the band would have to get a new Dylan next week, becausen the current one was gettimg worn out.

Dylan as a Time Lord... And if ever they decide there should be an American Doctor Who, he'd be pretty good at that I reckon.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:04 PM

As the supercilious wardens of taste and style advance on the seemingly doomed team of adventurers side kick Joanie clutches her hands to her mouth and says," Oh! Which way do we dare go now Doctor?"

The Mop-topped Galifreian places his hand on her shoulder and says,
"Why, mum bla fragen my lille wand sango songfer me."

Where by Joanie says, "Wow, I mean its so, you know, I can't.... Yeah!"

Then hand in hand they step into the T.A.R.D.I.S. and whirl off to confound and perhaps enlighten another society in another place .

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:30 PM

LoL...Don thats funny..Ake

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:35 PM

LOL, Don M. Funnily enough, I understood Dylan's words far better than I had expected, given the parodies I have heard.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:13 PM

fesh

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:14 PM

BTW..was talking to a friend yesterday who knows Jack Elliot. This guy's a writer and was given the chance to do an authorised biography.
He told me he didn't do it because Jack's too hard to pin down on any subject. He didn't think he could Jack interested long enough to get the book written!!

What he did say is that Jack is bitter about Dylans' teatment of him years ago, although Dylan did speak well of him in "Chronicles".

Apparently the name was supposed to be Dillon..as in Matt Dillon, but was subsequently changed..Ake

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:33 PM

o i c, 'Bob Dillon'- not 'Bob Dull 'un' !!

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:41 PM

LOL...Could be either ..or both

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:41 PM

Hey Don Firth......I watched theo other special anticipating something great and was disappointed......not bad in the first 35 minutes but went right downhill after that.

The Dylan special had one great thing about it that was refreshing and set it apart from almost EVERY OTHER MUSICAL TRIBUTE program. Nowhere in it did Bone-Ass and U2 have anything to say. Anymore it seems you can't amke a tribute special without that fuckin' tool showing up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:57 AM

It didnt need a lot of words and analysis to figure out what an extraordinary innovator Dylan was. It's hardly an exaggeration to say he invented a new species of human being, and all you had to do was watch poor little old world Joan Baez trying to sing along with the New Human Dylan. It wasnt the incompatibility of voices, it was the incompatibilty of absolutely everything. It was the Readers Digest meeting Last Exit to Brooklyn, a warthog marrying a cheetah, Doris Day holding hands with KLaus Kinski. Just not on, really.
    The other telling thing, that spoke louder than a thousand essays, was to listen to Dylan's guitar chords for Blowing in the Wind, and then hear the voice harmonies that Peter Paul and Mary added. Yuck!

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM

The best bit of the film was seeing the lovely Donovan sat in Dylan's hotel room.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:09 PM

This seems to be a heavy week for the Sixties on Seattle's PBS affiliate, KCTS Channel 9. The Dylan American Masters documentary on Monday and Tuesday evenings, Get Up, Stand Up: The Story of Pop and Protest on Wednesday, and last night I watched The Sixties: The Years that Changed a Generation. All excellent.

There is the old gag that "If you can remember the Sixties, you weren't really there." Well, if one either wasn't there at all (not born yet) or too stoned to know what was going on, this past week was a good opportunity to get a real overview.

I don't know if all PBS affiliates around the country are running all of these programs, but they are definitely worth checking for. Most PBS affiliates repeat such programs a few days or a week or two later, often in the wee hours of the morning, so you can catch them if you have a VCR. All of them have engendered videotapes and/or DVDs, so libraries may have them soon.

Helluva history lesson. Most informative!

Don Firth

P. S. Spaw, much of the "Get Up, Stand Up" program was on pop music in general, not just folk. The protest element in a lot of current pop music took its clue from the protest songs of the Sixties, and it's still very much there. I hope you stuck around with the program long enough to get the comments made by several current pop and rock singers right at the end.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

Don, maybe you could add some comments about the Sixties show over here? Thanks!

FWIW, Rog and I both thought Dylan and Baez looked stoned/hammered/wasted and, yes, it was godawful!

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: van lingle
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:31 AM

Does anyone know what type of instrument John Jacob Niles was playing in that short bit? It was sitting on a table top (or some level surface) and looked and sounded kind of guitarish and didn't appear to be an autoharp or a zither.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:54 AM

John Jacob Niles was just disturbing. But now I know who Tiny Tim's influences were.

To me, the only really enjoyable part of the Dylan film was the beginning--up through the Village scene stuff. Other than that, it just seemed like a "poor Dylan" sort of piece. Poor Dylan, the journalists were so stupid. Poor Dylan, the folk purists were so savage. Poor Dylan, everyone was putting all this baggage upon his countenance. Yeah, tell it to the wall.

Like I said elsewhere, I don't know that Dylan is or was a genius. A few days after watching the film and talking with a bunch of my daughter's friends who watched with us, I'm not even convinced he will be remembered as a great songwriter. As they pointed out to me, it isn't like there is a mad rush by subsequent generations of musicians to cover Dylan's stuff. He was very much a man of a certain time and place. His music appealed to the children of the liberal and intellectual elite, which meant that he has been more or less canonized by the rock press (which was controlled by children of the liberal and intellectual elite). He was very popular among that group of Americans and Europeans, but not so much beyond those groups. Which means his music hasn't had the universal appeal that some other musicians of his era had (mainly the Beatles). Dylan was definitely a phenomenon amongst white liberal kids, though. And now has even become a legend in his own mind.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:01 AM

The more interesting phenomenon to me has always been how everyone from Pete Seeger to Dylan to Springsteen look to Woody as a main influence on their songwriting. All those musicians wrote what were IMO really good songs. But Woody still stands like a giant, towering above them all.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:10 AM

Hello Guest,

"As they pointed out to me, it isn't like there is a mad rush by subsequent generations of musicians to cover Dylan's stuff."

Even I, who is definately not a supporter of the "Dylan is God" phylosphy can't say I agree with this comment at all. I can find recordings and performances of new and old Dylan stuff all over the place. I attend three open mics a month with three different crowds of performers and audiences and all have at least one identified to me anyway Dylan tune a week.

I think Dylan's place and popularity is secure for the ages as long as it is kept in context with what the topical songs were about. And the other songs that aren't topical but more lyric will always have there place.

I just don't think he is the greatest thing on the planet but that doesn't mean he isn't in others ears.

Don

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:22 AM

I think John Jacob Niles was playing a dulcimer.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM

I believe he is in peoples' ears. I just don't know how much appeal his songs have beyond the folk world though. Considering the majority of his work was more rooted in pop rock music than folk, I think it is legitimate to hold up his body of work using the standard that my daughter's generation is using. Her youth music scene has been the punk scene, but these kids (who are musicians themselves) also love a lot of kinds of music, just like we did. Dylan was also part of a youth music scene (as they pointed out to me--which hadn't occurred to me until they said that). He was definitely an icon of that youth music scene the same way whazzisname from Nirvana was an icon of a youth music scene. And for that matter, so was Frank Sinatra. Watching the film with a bunch of 20 somethings was sure an eye opener for me.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:34 AM

As I intimated on the other thread on this topic talking about Rick Fielding's opinion of Dylan's playing, one of things that always surprises me is that no one ever analyses the technicalities of how people play, as if people would be frightened away by it or something, when it is really the heart of the whole thing. The same is true in this documentary, except for a few remarks on the later recording sessions and the weary story of stealing the House of the Rising Sun. Everything is about the words and the "going electric". No one talks about what Dylan learned to play and who from, just that he stole. But what? And how? I would have given a lot for someone to have spent two minutes demonstrating the styles of people Dylan took stuff from.   

From the visuals in the documentary you would get the notion that all he ever did was rudimentary strumming with a flatpick; and no one talks about the sources of his harmonica playing.   Everyone is talking about the music, but no one is TALKING ABOUT THE MUSIC!!


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:39 AM

At one point Tony Glover mentions his mediocrity as a musician then alludes to the Cross Roads/ Devil. He says Dylan came back in few months playing well and cross harping the harmonica. Tony is a musician of significant skill and I'd accept his opinion on lots of things. But he must have heard Dylan play a different style of harmonica at some point than he usually plays when performing.

Don

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:46 AM

Niles was famous for both playing and building dulcimers.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:03 AM

I agree with you Peter. The film was an exercise in frustration, for the most part. As I said, the beginning of it, up through the Village stuff, was all that interested me much. I felt like I was getting some sense of "the scene" Dylan put himself at the center of--and that does help me understand why he would later ask Sam Shepard to write the script for the Rolling Thunder Revue, which eventually became (to be polite) "Dylan's art film". The focus is ALWAYS on Ginsburg and Guthrie when it is coming from Dylan, I guess.

Remember, this is the film Dylan wanted made. So you would have to ask Dylan why he didn't want it to be about his music. Once again, it was about the stupid icon building crap that Dylan has been obsessed with throughout his career. It would be nice if he would give it a rest for once. But he won't, IMO. We will just have to wait for some biographer with a serious interest in putting Dylan in a realistic, objective context--in his own time, and in an historic context.

The other mystery to me is, as someone alluded to elsewhere (perhaps it was you) why Dylan keeps insisting his songs weren't political or topical. Certainly his early stuff was almost exclusively political and/or topical. Maybe he just doesn't want to consider his "greatest work" has a shelf life.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:14 AM

It also occurred to me that Dylan might have been influenced by John Jacob Niles' persona building more than the music. Because Dylan has created a persona that isn't terribly unlike the one Niles created for himself.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:50 AM

Yes, yes.... (yawn)

Boy, I bet Bob is losing a whole lot of sleep over your comments, Guest. ;-)

I know I'm not.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 12:22 PM

Boy, LH, I bet Bob is just purring with pleasure, knowing that you take such a lively and positive interest in his songs.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:27 PM

Van Lingle, the inimitable John Jacob Niles made most of his own instruments. They were essentially Appalachian dulcimers and were played pretty much the same way, but he tried different body styles and sizes and added a lot more strings than the standard dulcimer has, I've been told that once or twice he tried to get away with passing one of his instruments off as a lute, but when this was met with a great rolling of eyes, he backed off a bit.

I think GUEST — 01 Oct 05 - 10:14 AM makes an interesting point about the self-invention of both Dylan and Niles. I doubt, however, that Dylan thought of Niles at all, or perhaps at first even knew who he was, but even though their styles were miles apart, the mind-set seems to be pretty similar. Sometimes people who create their own image actually come to believe it themselves.

Here's some info about Niles. Be careful when you click on this, because the audio starts right away, and if you're not prepared for it, it can give you the hiccups and a nervous tic. Steady now . . . CLICKY!

Actually, if I have a couple of stiff drinks ahead of time and fasten my seat-belt, I kind of enjoy ol' J. J. Niles. Probably the sweetest sounding falsetto around and a real way with a song, and you've gotta admit, the guy's got chutzpah!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:50 PM

Yep, John Jacob had a unique approach, but I have to say he has a beautiful voice. Go to the site Don lists above and see what you think. I think his singing style has more in common with the high tenor singing associated with medieval sacred song than anything I've heard elsewhere in folk.
Let's put it this way...if it was between Niles and Glen Yarborough's nauseating tremolo voice, I'd take Niles every time.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:58 PM

He loves me almost as much as I love him, Greg. ;-)

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:07 PM

And I would choose none of the above!

I don't think Dylan consciously constructed his persona to be like any one person in particular. But he was a student of a lot of people who did that sort of thing, Niles being but one. Woody was another. The Beat poets he was surrounded by another influence. Sam Shepard, a theatrical influence that obviously hit Dylan where he lived. Which begs the question: why no mention of Shepard in the documentary either? Shepard was likely one of the stronger absurdist influences on Dylan, and they seem to have maintained this odd relationship over the years, which began when they were both young pups living in the Village.

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:10 PM

A more significant model for that kind of self-creation, with its adjustment of the facts to match was surely Woody Guthrie, who did exactly that.

But in one sense it's what everybody does, most especially at times when we are breaking away into some new envuironment, for example, going to college, or getting in to a new relationship, or moving to a new part of the world, or taking up a new type of work in a different setting, or playing our music in a different environment. We emphasise some stuff, and we play down other stuff.

Some of us carry it a lot further than others, and Dylan clearly did, but what earthly need is there to get all heavy and judgemental about it?

This was how Dylan negotiated his way through pretty difficult and demanding times, and managed to produced some pretty good stuff along the way. As the saying goes "To hell with the begrudgers."

Subject: RE: DylanOnTube-PBS/ScorseseDocumentary
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:22 PM

...if Dylan's music isn't canonized and sought after by the younger generation now (and there are exceptions to this rule, of course: I walked into a shop the other day and a young woman all of about 19 was playing an old tape of early Dylan stuff and singing along enthusiastically) ...

Just wait until he's dead.