BS: Obama/____________ '08???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

Latest word is that Obama pulled off a late night meeting with Hillary last night... According to MSNBC he even tricked the press by telling them to be on his plane at such-a-such time and then having the plane take off without him on board...

Not too sure what came outta the meeting but it shows me that Obama has a few tricks up his sleeve...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM

"...it shows me that Obama has a few tricks up his sleeve..."

That is what the vast majority of Americans are afraid of. (McCain 62%, Obama 34%, others 4%). Good times ahead.    *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: MarkS
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM

Obama is no muslim by our standards. He can practice any religion he likes and we think nothing of it.

But - and a big but - by the standards of other fundamental muslims he is indeed muslim having inherited his faith from his father.

Not an issue for us, but could be a complication should he meet and deal with leadership from fundamental moslem states. By their standards they would feel like they are dealing with an apostate.

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

PDQ:

Did you pull those numbers out of your butt? Or just make them up?

I don't think you have any idea what the majorioty of Americans think, and speaking for them without knowing what you are talking about is not a noble thing to do.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM

"by the standards of other fundamental muslims he is indeed muslim having inherited his faith from his father"

Yes, and the punishment for a Muslim who does not follow his faith is rather severe in some circles: death. There are Moslim leaders in every Islamic country he would visit who would feel justified in ordering that such punishment be carried out.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM

I think this idea about Islam as a matter of heredity must come from an analogy with the situation as regards Jews, where it would have some validity. No doubt there are some Muslims who believe it to be the case, but the evidence seems to be that they out of step with mainstream Islamic religious laws.

There is some doubt whether Obama's father was in fact a Muslim, though his grandfather was.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Alice
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:03 AM

CNN reporting that John Edwards has said "no" to being V.Pres.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM

wHAT IS THIS OBSESSION OF TRYING TO MAKE THE OPINION--GUESSED AT, WITHOUT HARD SURVEY OR EVIDENCE -- OF SOME x NUMBER OF IMAGINARY mUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD -- CONSTITUTE A fact of any bearing in the United States??? Why would you lend any credence to such a bizarre notion, much less grant it any merit in this domain? It has none whatsoever.

Sorry about the capslock error.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

pdq, Obama was born to a White mother and a Black father. What does that make him? Does it make him "Black". Why? Does it make him "White"? Why?

He was born to a Muslim father and (I presume) a non-Muslim mother. What does that make him? He was brought up by some Christian people wasn't he? What does that make him?

While all of these things may be considered part of Barack Obama's background, none of them make him what he is today, because what he is today is a free human being who decides for himself what he wants to be.

Just like you or me. We decide for ourselves.

It doesn't make any difference who you were born to, because ultimately YOU decide who you ARE.

And if anyone says differently, then they are not talking about Barack Obama, they are talking about their own fossilized mental conditioning which is their own frikkin' problem, not Barack Obama's.

He's human. And that's it, period. And that, plus the fact that he's American, seems to have been his fervently stated message from the very beginning of the campaign....but the mentally ill society that is existing all around him cannot seem to see people as just humans or just Americans! No. It must divide them up into Black & White, Christian and non-Christian, Democrat and Republican, "conservative" and "liberal", etc....

This addiction to dividing people up into irreconcilable opposites is exactly what is WRONG with your society, and all the most destructive forces in your society pander to it constantly in the media and use it to drive wedges between people and manipulate events.

Do I think a majority of your citizens are self-aware enough to stop falling for that kind of manipulation? No, sadly, I do not. But I would love to be proven wrong in that regard, I must say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

I have never known the religious affiliation of anyone I ever voted for. Nor have I ever cared.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:37 PM

"He was born to a Muslim father and (I presume) a non-Muslim mother. What does that make him? He was brought up by some Christian people wasn't he? What does that make him?"


                   A Unitarian Universalist?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

A transcendant AGent of the Universe? ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Liberal Hawk,

I have said this several times: I do not give a rat's ass what religion Obama practices.

I do find it rude to call people "stupid" or "ignorant" when they point out the fact that most Muslims consider him to be one of theirs by birth. I do not make rules for the followers of Islam, and actually, neither do they.   

You and I believe in free will and all that good Western cultural stuff, they do not. What Obama is, as Joe Offer pointed out on another thread, is a matter of opinion. People who express an opinion that differs from one's own suould not automatically be considered "evil", "wrong", "ignorant" or "stupid".

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

PDQ,,

You state

" People who express an opinion that differs from one's own should not automatically be considered "evil", "wrong", "ignorant" or "stupid". "


This is in fundemental violation of the Mudcat Code of Conduct. If you continue in this prohibited behaviour Steps Will Be Taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

" Steps Will Be Taken"

Ah, I hear footprints approaching on horseback right now!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:52 PM

...the fact that most Muslims consider him to be one of theirs by birth. I do not make rules for the followers of Islam,

That is very open to question. A number of very knowledgeable Islamic sharia jurists have judged that not to be the case.

Moreover the very assumption that Barack's father was a Muslim is also open to question. Auma Obama,one of Barack's half sisters: ""His [Barack's] father was never a Muslim although he was born into a Muslim family with a Muslim name." From a Guardian writer who has been meeting with members of Obama's family

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:55 PM

Right. I want to be born to Muslim parents and then convert to Catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

"You and I believe in free will and all that good Western cultural stuff, they do not."

Bullshit. That's a facile assumption on your part, pdq, and one that I know is in gross error. I'll tell you why. I have known many Muslims in the last 40 years of my life, and I never met one yet that did not believe in free will. They believe in it just as much as you or I do. They thirst for democracy too...real democracy, I mean.

But...like other people they tend to do the Polly-Parrot thing. They repeat things they have heard other people say all their lives, and they don't actually know why. This is true of people in all cultures, not just Muslims. There are silly things that they all take for granted, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with their lack of belief in free will.

Every human being believes implicitly in his own free will and longs to express it. It's basic to human nature. When people don't express their free will it's because they are afraid. Afraid of what others will think! Or say! Or do.

You have asked a sucker question of some Islamic people you know, a set-up question crafted to illicit a Polly-Parrot response, and they have given you the Polly-Parrot answer that they take for granted. That proves nothing about whether or not Barack Obama is a Muslim, it just proves that people find it hard to think outside their accustomed cultural box.

This is also true of Americans who are not Muslims. You have your cultural mythology too, and it's equally out of touch with the actual reality and the genuine workings of an uninhibited free will.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

FOr the purposes of this country, this election, this little corner of humanity, PDQ, he is only and wholly what he says he is.

If fifty million Muslims want to say he is a Muslim, from Bangkok to Marrakech and back, it is their problem, and their business; it no more makes him one for any purpose of the present discussion about the US election, then it would make you a fallen evil soul if every Baptist in the world ganged up to declare it so. In this nation, and in all discussion relevant tot his election, he is, as he defines himself, a Christian.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:27 PM

Webster "faith, n, 1. A confident belief in the truth, value or trustworthiness of a person, idea or thing..."

Simply put, people are not born with belief systems in place...

Simply put, part B, if people are not born with belief systems in place then it is impossible for them to born of any faith...

Simply put, Part 3, faith is not inherited...

Simply put, part 4, only someone without faith could possibly think that faith can be inherited...

B~ (one of "faith")

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

For you, Liberal Hawk, to say that a few Muslims you know in a free country were they are less than 1% represent the group as a whole is quite absurd.

In a Moslem-dominated country, people will wear what they are told to wear, say what they are expected to say and do what Islam tells them to do. "Islam" means "submission", as in submit to it's rules or face consequences. That means death to some.

Sqawk all you want but the majority of the world's Muslims, as expressed by Muslim spokesmen, say the Obama's father was a practicing Muslim and therefore Obama is a Muslim by birth. That opinion is not mine and, for the last time, I don't give a fucking rat's ass what Obama believes. I don't plan to vote for him for many reason, but race and religion aren't even a factor.

Some here insist that his birth into the Moslem religion is so important that it must be denied have to do some explaining. I don't fucking care, and don't call people who agree with the majority of the world's Moslem ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:12 PM

"Islam" means "submission", - to the will of God.

Christians are supposed to go in for that too.
.............................

You keep on saying "his birth into the Moslem religion", pdq - but it doesn't to work like that according to Islamic law. You have to formally say that you believe there is only one God and that Mohammed is his prophet.

And anyway Obama's half sister has gone on record as saying that their father was not a Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM

When in doubt, ask Snopes. Here is their research into Obama's "muslim" heritage.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: irishenglish
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

In a Moslem-dominated country, people will wear what they are told to wear, say what they are expected to say and do what Islam tells them to do. "Islam" means "submission", as in submit to it's rules or face consequences. That means death to some.

That's sure a generalization if I ever heard one pdq. Are they told what they are supposed to wear in Tunisia? How about Egypt? Iraq? Jordan? Indonesia? You get the point. Your statement implies every Muslim dominated country in the world has those rules. Where do you come up with this shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

Rush Limbaugh???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: irishenglish
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM

If not Limbaugh, then one of the others of the same ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM

I have friends who lived in Iran some years back. They liked to wear Western casual clothes, were clean-shaven and liked to go to the Disco. If you do that now in Iran, you risk violence.

What I said is quit correct, although the extent of opression by the Imams is less in some Moslem-dominated countries than in others. Drinking, drugs, your sex lie, the friends you keep, the clothes you wear, the food you eat, even your haircut can get you in trouble.

Obama can reject his birth into Islam and all of us (including myself) will accept that. In Iran, rejecting Islam in public can get you killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:44 PM

In America, pdq, people also wear what they are told to wear, say what they are expected to say and do what their society tells them to do.

They conform. They conform massively and predictably to the cultural messages they are given over their TV and mass media and in their schools. This is true of 99% of the population. People conform because their are afraid of what other people would think about them if they didn't!

And their conformity to American cultural values seems just as ridiculous to people in other cultures as the conformity of people in other cultures to their accustomed values seems to you.

But you don't see it in your own case, because you have taken it for granted all your life. The same is true of Muslims in Muslim countries.

One has to step outside the box of one's own culture to become a truly free human being who thinks independently. Few people ever do.

Your chauvinism toward Muslims (as a group) is matched by theirs toward you, and it seems to me like you are the mirror image of each other in that respect. If there is a war between such people, it is driven by chauvinism and ignorance of one another on both sides.

Barack Obama has attained a degree of wisdom, because he grew up in at least 2 cultures and 2 racial groups as a boy and he was exposed, therefore, to differing views of things, and in a peaceful way. That broadens a person's perspective, and a broader perspective is exactly what's needed in a head of state or a diplomat.

I don't care what religion Barack Obama belongs to either. It's irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:44 PM

Who here is defending Iran's intolerant society???

(How do you spell "red herring", Bobert???)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

I've noticed that the USA is also a bit intolerant of Iran. And Iraq. And anyone else who gets in the way of certain corporate oil interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

For a reasoned opinion on this point, go back to Joe Offers post of "05 Jun 08 - 02:57 AM":

"I'm not well-versed in the legalities of membership in Islam, but I think it could be validly argued that Barack Obama both is and is not a Muslim. That depends on one's perspective - but for fundamentalists, having more than one perspective is anathema." ~ Joe Offer

BTW, Liberal Squawk, I hate oppressive behavior in all people, in all countries, and in all situations. Even here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM

For someone who doesn't give a damn, you sure do go on, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:19 PM

Look who continued it! Need a mirror?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM

"I hate oppressive behavior in all people, in all countries, and in all situations. Even here on Mudcat."

So do I, pdq. We are agreed on that, and you should know that I have defended Mudcat's few conservatives, including yourself, from unfair attacks by the "liberal" crowd here on a number of occasions. I just don't think you happen to have a valid point this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:04 PM

"I have defended Mudcat's few conservatives, including yourself..."

Thanks but no thanks, really. As with most people my opinions need to be respected on their individual merit. Most people I know respect the right to own a gun, say what they want on most subjects, hate abortion, hate government intrusion in their live, and do not want to pay any more taxes than they needed to run the governemnt. To claim that those views belong to one group is absurd. Most people who actually think will have diverse opinions an many subjests. I reject your "lumping" people into groups. That make it so convenient when it comes time to dismiss them. Thanks anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM

You're making my own point for me, pdq. I have defended people here on the basis of their individual thoughts, not on the basis of whether they are seen in this or that group ("liberal" or "conservative") by most people here. I'm not a "liberal", I'm a radical. I respect the right to own a gun, the right to say what you want on any and all subjects, I do not particularly like the idea of abortion in a general sense (but neither will I decide it for other people because I think that's their decision not mine), I hate government intrusion in my life, and I do not want to pay any more taxes than are needed to run the government (and maintain a reasonable level of health care and normal public services while doing so).

I do not belong to any group. I do not belong to any party. I'm an individual, like you said, and individuals have widely diverse opinions.

But I do take note of the fact that there are a few people here such as yourself, Bearded Bruce, DougR, Slag, and a couple of others who regularly get ganged up on by many other members here merely because you have what they see as a conservative slant. You get ganged up on unfairly in some cases...and when I see that, I defend you.

You know this is so. If you don't know it, then you're in a selective state of denial at the moment because your nose is out of joint over the particular arguments that have arisen in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:20 PM

Actually there was a recent article about the youth in Iran who still go to discos and listen to rock music, in complete evasion of the oppressive rules. Here's one Iranian DJ/muiscian who keeps the faith of music over the local rules.

"There are many young Iranians -- especially in the provinces -- who genuinely support the country's hard-line leaders. In cities like Qom and Mashhad, even local residents stop and reprimand women whose hijabs do not "sufficiently cover their bodies." Most of them regard Khomeini and Khamanei as iconic figures who are above the law, and everything else.

But many others find the social restrictions frustrating and suffocating. Younger women especially have been expressing their exasperation with the Islamic regime.

Raha, a Tehran-based young professional, told RFE/RL that "indeed, Iranian women have the right to education and work, but still there are many rules and laws that have turned the women into a half person."

"On the surface, it looks like we have the right to education. In reality, however, husbands have the right not to allow their wives to continue their education, and the government and the law take the sides of the husbands," Raha said. "It is written that women have the right to work but, in reality, the husband can take that right away from his wife."

Iranian student Kiyan told RFE/RL's Radio Farda that, for him, Khomeini's name is related to war and poverty.

"It's very easy to judge what we see here today. It's unemployment, devastation, a failed economy, war with the whole world," Kiyan said. "The foundation of all of these things was formed at the beginning of the Islamic Revolution. I think Mr. Khomeini's responsibility for problems that we face today should not be underestimated."

'Losing Patience'

Mohammad said he "couldn't care less about the supreme leader's speeches or warnings." Mohammad insists he is not interested in politics; however, he is "losing" his patience with the political and religious leaders "who are interfering in people's lives and taking away their most basic freedom, such as the freedom to listen to music."

It was social restrictions that caused students to spill into the streets throughout Iran in 1999 in the most serious unrest in the country since the Islamic Revolution.

There has been an upsurge in student activities and protests in Iranian cities in recent years. In recent months, officials have arrested dozens of leftist student groups whose main slogan is "Freedom and Equality."

Radio Farda contributed to this report"

(from here.)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:32 PM

The ironical thing is that in Iran, just as in the USA, the more conservative and hardline oppressive elements in the government find their strongest support in the rural areas and the small towns, and among more aggressive males, while the progressive elements are far more likely to find their support among large urban populations, young people, particularly young women, and students.

And so it has ever been...in any country, in any time.

If Ahmadinejad's most fervent supporters in Iran were somehow by magic transformed into Americans, they'd be voting for McCain and urging an ever more "get tough with Iran" policy... ;-)

Same problem on both sides of the fence, in fact. The fanatics and soreheads are in control of the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:07 PM

George Bush is the worst president ever. John McCain is of the same ilk, that is, endless war, anti choice, and high prices due to the value of the dollar that is caused by deficit spending in the trillions.

Obama is not a Muslim. He is an avowed Christian. If he had switched religions, he would have been killed before now.
What his pastor said is on his pastor, not him. My own brother is a homophobe; does that mean I should disavow him? Am I responsible for what he says? Especially if I wasn't even present when he said it?
As usual, we have to settle for whatever the parties hand us, and as far as I'm concerned, Obama is the lesser of two evils.He will do the least damage.Will we ever wake up to the fact that both parties are owned by corporate America?
Get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:33 PM

The problem I have with the "conservatives"(haha) here isn't one about differences of opinion... That I can live with...

What bothers me is that they don't deal too well with policy debates and spend an inordinate amount of their time and energy parroting personal smear campaigns of the Republican Party...

This entire thing about trying to pigeon hole Obama as a Muslim plays to peoples fears from 9/11 on one hand and is not true on the other... Where is the policy discussion??? There isn't one...

Then on another thread Obama is being attacked because he bought property from a criminal... Where is the policy discussion??? There isn't one...

This goes well beyond right of free thought and speech... I challenged Old Guy (remember him???) a couple years ago to name one policy issue that he thought he could defend Bush on and he choose FEMA and Katrina... Fine, the thread went about 800 posts and was a discussion/debate on an, ahhhhhh, friggin' issue...

That was fine...

But these personal smear campaign against Obama are nothing more than that... The are not discussions... They are base... They are petty... And they really just demonstrate that the folks who camp out at the smear well don't really have any policy issues that they want to discuss...

Fine... That is their right... It's also my right to call them on it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:02 PM

Excellent post, Bobert. That's it in a nutshell.

Issues are fine.

Smearing a person is a bit different from raising issues. Yet that's all Obama's critics on Mudcat seem to be able to do.

It raises the suspicion they can't find any actual issues on which to disagree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 12:12 AM

No mirror. I have now posted six times to this thread. You have posted fifteen. As I said...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:32 PM

Bob Dylan pronounces on Obama:

"Well, you know right now America is in a state of upheaval," he says. "Poverty is demoralising. You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor. But we've got this guy out there now who is redefining the nature of politics from the ground up...Barack Obama. He's redefining what a politician is, so we'll have to see how things play out. Am I hopeful? Yes, I'm hopeful that things might change. Some things are going to have to." He offers a parting handshake. "You should always take the best from the past, leave the worst back there and go forward into the future," he notes as the door closes between us."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:10 PM

Wow. If Bob says it, it's gotta be on the money, right?? Right. :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:28 PM

Well said, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM

Yes, it is sad indeed. As you say, he should be able to embrace and honor his family's Muslim heritage...but the fact of the matter is, he can't do that if he expects to have any chance of being elected in the USA.

It's an unwritten law in American political culture: "Thou shalt be a Christian (at least nominally). Thou shalt not be of any other religions." The implication is that all other religions are heathen and un-American. That's not what I call a genuinely free country.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:30 PM

I have seen nothing to indicate he has any anti-Muslim leanings. He's just not, religiously, a Muslim, never has been, and isn't going to cater to a bunch of wing-nuts telling him he is.

Good for him.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:47 PM

He is playing the game because he must Fantasma if he is to have any hope of being elected at all. That is not an idictment of Barack Obama, but of the society he is living in.

Now, Dennis Kucinich did not play the game. Neither did Ron Paul. They came out agaisnt the war from the start, voted against it in Congress, and were totally honest about it. You see how far they got with that approach, though I admire them for it.

You cannot get elected president if you are wholly truthful with the American public.

So there are two choices. 1. Stand on principle and don't get elected, in which case you cannot change things anyway. 2. Play the game and get elected, in which case you might be able to change some things, assuming you have the will to...but the odds against it are long ones indeed.

The only thing I'm not clear on is if Obama actually intends to be such an agent of change. He talks as if he wants to. We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:17 AM

Ya know, I really don't see the Muslim heritage shtick having any bearing. How much "heritage" is involved?

Do you have any real information about his upbringing that says he was the receiver of some Muslim heritage?

I certainly have not seen it.

Is it possible his "Muslim heritage" is just a fantsy spun out of the perfervid imagination of people who can't think clearly for themselves? Well, of course its possible, but its beginning to look downright probable!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

It probably has something to do with his extended association with Louis Farrakhan.