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BS: UFO's and the Bible
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:05 PM Good points, Nicole. The ancient people may very well have mastered some form of flight. They could easily have created hot air balloons of a large sort, for example, and observed the plains of Nazca from some considerable altitude, while tethered to the ground by lines. Why not? Anyone who figures out that hot air rises and who can sew a large silk bag and a simple gondola can do it. All it takes is the idea. My own feeling is that we have BOTH been visited by space visitors from time to time AND have invented and created marvelous things entirely on our own at many other times. Why should the one exclude the possibility of the other? In other words, I have a high opinion of the capabilities of both humans and extraterrestrials when it comes right down to it. It's annoying when someone like Von Daniken becomes a fanatic on his own pet theory, and tries to make everything that ever happened fit it and only it, but that's what people are often like when they become enamoured of an idea. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: *daylia* Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:16 AM But what if human beings ARE extra-terrestrials unwittingly disguised as earthlings? Hmmmmmmm??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM Well Nicole I didn't take your advice and I checked out the man. Von Daniken. And I have to take it back that I never heard of him. He wrote 'Chariots of the Gods' Yes, I have not only heard of him I saw his show on PBS a few years ago. I have to say this, my theory on gods=aliens is also his, so I do not find that to be crack-pot theory. I do suppose how-ever that the Bible could have been written by a bunch of science fiction writers! Not only the Bible but the Siva Purana, Uranchia, and the tribe-Dogon (another controversy the Dogon tribe, that knew about star systems 700 years ago) all relate to the God=Alien theory. Now way up on this thread I had also mentioned our Government having a plan for alien invasion. I (of coarse) could not find that on the internet, top-secret shit they keep from the public ya know, but I did find a page that I talked about that FEMA had put out to fire-fighter's. The book is called Fire Officer's guide to Disaster Control, and if you scroll down this page a bit, the chapter on what to do if there was an alien invasion, is posted. Click here The reason the government had to come up with some kind of plan was brought about by the radio program by Orson Wells- War of the Worlds. The way people freaked out when they heard this on the radio, the gov. thought they needed something. Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM " so I do not find that to be crack-pot theory" Even Charls Manson managed to find people to agree with him... Anybody I've ever met with half an ounce of brain see's through EvD's work in about 2 minutes flat... I mean you go right ahead and believe what theories you wanna, but don't be surprised when only other 'fringe' types even listen to ya... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: leprechaun Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM Well I think if you had a lot of people available, you could launch them into the sky, one at a time, with a primitive machine like a catapult. While they are at the top of their arc, they could observe what they see, and they would have a second or two to shout back down to the people on the ground, who could record those observations, and use them to build the Nazca. Sure, it would take a long time, and you'd have to have a lot of well trained volunteers, each of whom could only be used for one trip in the catapult. But what the heck, it was thousands of years ago, and all they had was time on their hands. So eventually the dang thing would get built. Who's to say ancient people weren't skilled problem solvers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: *daylia* Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:13 PM Well they had to be I guess - poor things didn't even have electricity or computers. Or TV!!! *GASP* How the heck did the species ever survive? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Ebbie Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:08 PM Rustic Rebel, your link leads straight to Charles Bahme's theories. His views have not been made official in any sense of the word. Stop and think. If his Chapter 13 were official, do you really think it would be necessary to go into the history of UFO manifestations and sensationalist sightings? Why not just say that in the event of an unexplained incident with its concurrent potential for panic, the fire fighters are to do such and so? I remember my parents talking about the brief panic that swept certain communities in the War of the Worlds radio broadcast, (A neighbor of theirs left her home and ran through the streets screaming)so obviously the potential for harm is there. I should think that any 'manual' would address that in a more direct fashion than is given in Bahme's book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 02 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM Ebbie- I heard a reference to the Fire-man's guide on a progam I watched on the history channel. In doing a quick search I came up with that one. It may not be the official FEMA book then. Clinton-Do you really think I care if people believe my theory or not? Like I said earlier, "I am not trying to convert anyone" If I cared, I probably wouldn't have even started this thread! "To each his/her own" I just think the idea is plausible. And I am not saying our ancestors were of caveman intellect(except the cavemen themselves),I just say maybe SOME ideas come from other places un-known-to this-world! Damn I'm feeling ganged up on here when I only wanted to discuss biblical scripture. I do respect all of you and your views though, and I am never to old to learn something new from them!(except maybe that train thing that was going on-reminded me of a song-'my old man is so insane-he thinks he's a freight train!) peace.Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Penny S. Date: 02 Feb 03 - 03:36 PM 1. Gaining aerial views. Two weeks ago my class was sketching chairs. The children sat or lay on the floor. The chairs stood on the floor, and I made sure that they were usually not straight on to the chair. One boy produced an accurate plan view straight onof his chair. (Which, when I asked him to draw again, what he could see, he rubbed out!) There's a wood in Kent called Harp Wood, because it is harp shaped. No nearby high spot for a view from above. Humans can do the aerial view trick without going up there at all. Men tend to be better than women, apparently, but we can all do it with practice. 2. Discussion of recorded gods being aliens ignores continuing religious experiences in the absence of any aliens. This is something else available to humans who pray or meditate, or engage in group acts of worship. I'm not sure how general it is, as churches etc leave a lot of people cold. So cold that they don't get it in any sort of religion. But where it occurs, it doesn't need aliens. Bibles, etc, attempt to make sense of these experiences, and make them available to others. 3. Archaeology now reads very small bits of evidence - today I have seen microscopic iron beads used to show that Tudor armourers used welding techniques. Aliens working with our ancestors on major projects would have left something behind - paint spalls off their craft, lubricating oil, minor bones from alien food items, or odd seeds or pollen in waste matter. They would have had to be fantastically careful not to leave anything. Attempts to remove traces would have left their own remains. No-one's reported anything that could be interpreted that way. And someone would have done just that, if there were anything to be reported. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Penny S. Date: 02 Feb 03 - 03:50 PM Oh yes, and if it is not scary that aliens may be like us... just curious... that's what we are like, is it? We aren't just curious. We like lots of other behaviours, as well. Imperialism, colonialism, terrorism, exploitation, slavery, torture, - need I go on? And we've already told them we're here... Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: GUEST,alinact Date: 02 Feb 03 - 04:13 PM Rustic I admire you for having the courage of your convictions and laying them out here. I believe the bible is a book that should be used when studying the history of "the middle east" during the period 500BCE and (for want of a figure) 50-100CE. There is no doubt the bible contains factual material of the people, places and events of those times; there probably was a bloke named Jesus wandering around who had the ability to convince people that his "agenda" was the way to go (dare I say it - Adolph Hitler had similar abilities). But, as others have said above, the book itself has been translated and interpreted so many times, the "mystical" side needs to be taken with not just a grain of salt, but more with a "pillar" of salt. Now, if you want to "theorise" about what actually happened, have a read of the books by Immanuel Velikovsky (Earth in Upheaval, Worlds in Collision, etc.). These books were written back in the 1950's and 99% of the worlds scientists dismissed his theories as preposterous and that he was just another crackpot. The difference with IV is that, thanks to the space programme, some, and I repeat SOME, of his outlandish predictions have now been proven correct. Allan. Just a note to Glypton - yes, unfortunately there are many recorded instances of people dying from eating oysters that are "off". |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Donuel Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:54 PM What are UFO's? http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/abduction1.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:08 PM Little Hawk. Please explain how stones are alve. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:08 PM Donual-that is pretty ggod. Penny-interesting technique you have with showing ariel perception. I used to study the Bible not for what it taught religiously, but more for the history. I was even out to de-bunk it in a way, because of all the contradictions you can find in it. And through doing this I read over and over about 'God' coming in a cloud or leaving in fire etc.. and truthfully it all seemed to connect to some type of alien craft and alien intervention. As for finding clues all I can say is there is a new discovery every day. We just had the new discovery, the dinosaur with wings, which will take us to a whole new level of the evolution theory. Human remains that are thousands of years older than any biblical reference and we keep digging up more all the time. So who knows? There may come a day! I keep wracking my brain trying to remember where it was that they found petroglyphs that resembled space men. They were in some sort of suit and helmet carved into a cave wall. Does anyone remember this? Right on Allan-thanks and I will check into that book, it sounds interesting. Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: MMario Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:05 PM I've seen representations of the glyphs - what they remind me of mostly is the figures kids draw when they are first beginning to try to go from pure stick figures to more lifelike representations |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:51 PM Well, for God's sake...I just typed out a lengthy reply to GUEST, and sent it...and it vanished. (Groan) This happens often enough that it's getting VERY annoying. Well, here is a part of it that I can paste in... It is accurate to say that there is a life force in all things, and that it is an intelligent, purposeful force. Therefore in that sense all things are alive, down to the molecular and the atomic level. This doesn't mean that all things are conscious of having an individual identity or a measure of free will, but that they are invested with a life force that defines and forms them in the first place, that is all. Inert things like rocks, water, and air basically are unconscious, have no form of individual awareness, and cannot act according to free will. Plants and some simple "animals" are conscious, but cannot act freely. They can only grow...and react in a passive manner to an exterior factor. Some are on the cusp, and have a very limited form of action, like a fly-trapping plant or a "sensitive" plant that moves its leaves away when you touch it. More complex things can both act and react with great facility, and have a good deal of free will. They think and act on those thoughts. Animals are of that type, as are insects, etc. The simpler ones have less individual freedom of will, and tend to act more as a collective or in an instinctive manner. Truly sentient beings can act, react, and think independently...and they can even think ABOUT the process of thinking itself! They can theorize alternative realities and intuit new concepts that have not yet been actualized, but may be at some point. They are not just doers, but CREATORS. That describes the more highly evolved human being. The less evolved human being is closer to an animal. He acts on basic vital drives and believes either in a very primitive religion or in nothing spiritual whatsoever. The primitive believer and the primitive non-believer (materialist) are natural opponents, because they bear the same distinguishing mark, that of the beast...driven by desire, passion, hunger, fear, attachment, and ego. They each see their own ignorance reflected in the other, and they despise it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: GUEST,Cluin (at girlfriend's) Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:03 PM Well, the only one I'm really empirically sure is alive is me. The rest of the universe exists within in my perception. And once again, that Shakespeare guy who exists within my perception was right... It's all a dream, man! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM *in my best Merlin voice" A dream to some... A NIGHTMARE TO OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!! LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:31 PM Cluin - That's an interesting philosophical view expressed in a number of religious traditions...that this existence is a dream. It's one way of looking at it. The North American Indians and the East Indian traditions both tend to take that viewpoint. As dreams go, though, it's very tactile, and it's very slow to change and hard to wake up out of, isn't it? :-) I had a dream the other day of waking up from a dream, and then some other stuff occurred, and then I really did wake up! I think.... Dreams within dreams within dreams... (play that spooky music...) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:08 PM Any one heard of the JANAP reports? This is a report to be filed to the Gov. in a ufo siting. JANAP report Also another report to be filled out is- called a SEPRA report-SEPRA And another interesting page is the Brookings Report dealing with NASA ans SETI on ufo's. Little Hawk- you should like this one from the enterprise mission! LH- I've had dreams like that also- a dream in a dream. Strange feeling they leave me and they are usually very vivid when I have dreams like that. One more thing I would like to bring up is why our Governments think they have to keep all of the -UFO- information away from people.Do they think we are complete idiots or what? They think we are going to freak out if they told us the truth and showed us all the photo's and information they have? I for one think we could handle it. I saw a film from NASA once where they shot a missle out at a UFO from space, and it showed the ufo coming in, the missle going off and the ufo just turning around and flying out of site. Now why are they trying to do this is another question. Now NASA cuts all ufo's out of there films. I personally think this is an outrage. Was the Star Wars (Reagan's) program actually set up fot just this purpose? Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:17 PM NASA doesn't have missles! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:29 PM Damn Clinton, I'm glad your here to keep me in line! a NASA film our governments missles. StarWars Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:34 PM Oh... star wars... the orbital missle platforms THAT WERE NEVER BUILT?!?!?!?! You'd have better luck and be more credible if you were talking about the movie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM Rustic - For some interesting and quite serious material on that matter, look up "Disclosure Project". disclosureproject.org For those who prefer having their heads in the sand, don't bother. You wouldn't be inclined to even half consider such info, unless it came from the State Department, I suppose (your version of big "mummy" and big "daddy", who can always be trusted to tell the truth). - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM The Disclosure Project??? You may as well get your "Facts" from The Weekly World News... Got any credible sources??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: *daylia* Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM Does such a thing as a 'credible source' exist for a subject like UFO's? Expecially for the incredulous? Just wondering ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:50 PM Travis Walton MIGHT be a good guy to ask... Might... ,-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:11 PM I'll tell you what Clinton- I didn't just make it up that I saw this film. Our Government has something out there that shot a missle at the UFO. It will take me some research and memory as to where I saw this but it was a real film and very convincing if it was a fake. One thing I have noticed about you Clinton- your still coming into this thread for some reason. Come on Clinton what is it that you believe about UFO's that keeps bringing you here? Now here's a theory just for you Clinton- Redheads have been branded on every planet in the system. They have been mutated by solar radiation acting upon the excessive sugars and sex hormones in their bodies.(Ha!) In Central America, South America and Mexico, there are prevailing myths about a race of redheaded caucasians who appeared thousands of years ago and conquered tribe after tribe with benevolent magic. The Incas, Aztecs and Mayas attribute the development of their highly advanced civilization to the 'Red Beards' The pyramids and other massive New World masonaries were built by these demi-gods. The Red-beards legend extends into Oceania as well. The great stone heads of Easter Island were said to be portraits of those same carrot-tops. The Red-Beards had extraordinary abilities. They were masters of pyramid power,an incredibly effective harnessing of natural energies, so complex modern science hasn't begun to understand it. Could it be these RedBeards were extraterrestrials? Peace Rustic P.S. These excerpts on RedBeards were provided by the beloved Tom Robbins, from his book 'Still Life With Woodpecker', to which he delves into the problem with redheads! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:16 PM I cannot resist adding this here also- By Tom Robbins How are we to explain the power these daughters of ancient Henna have over us bemused sons of Eros? Red hair is a woman's game. The harsh truth is, most red-haired men look like blonds who've spoiled from lack of refrigeration. They look like brown-haired men who've been composted. Yet that same pigmentation that on a man can resemble leaf mold or junk yard rust, a woman wears like a tiara of rubies. Not only are female redheads frequently lovely but theirs is a loveliness that suggests both lust and danger, pleasure and violence, and is, therefore, to the male of the species virtually irresistible. Red O red were the tresses of the original femme fatale. Of course, much of the "fatale" associated with redheads is illusory, a stereotypical projection on the part of sexually neurotic men. Plenty of redheads are as demure as rosebuds and as sweet as strawberry pie. However, the mere fact that they are perceived to be stormy, if not malicious, grants them a certain license and a certain power. It's as if bitchiness is their birthright. By virtue of their coloration, they possess an innate permit to be terrible and lascivious, which, even if never exercised, sets them apart from the remainder of womankind, who have traditionally been expected to be mild and pure. Now that women are demolishing those old misogynistic expectations, will redheads lose their special magic, will Pippi Longstocking come to be regarded as just one of the girls? Hardly. To believe that blondes and brunettes are simply redheads in repressive drag is to believe that UFOs are kiddie balloons. All redheads, you see, are mutants. Whether they spring from genes disarranged by earthly forces or are "planted" here by overlords from outer space is a matter for scholarly debate. It's enough for us to recognize that redheads are abnormal beings, bioelectrically connected to realms of strange power, rage, risk and ecstasy. What is your mission among us, you daughters of ancient Henna, you agents of the harvest moon? Are those star maps that your freckles replicate? How do you explain the fact that you live longer than the average human? Where did you get such sensitive skin? And why are your curls the same shade as heartbreak? Alas, inquiry is futile: Either they don't know or they won't say -- and who has the nerve to pressure a redhead? We may never learn their origin or meaning, but it probably doesn't matter. We will go on leaping out of our frying pans into their fire, grateful for the opportunity to be titillated by their vengeful fury, real or imagined, and to occasionally test our erotic mettle in the legendary inferno of their passion. Redheaded women! Those blood oranges! Those cherry bombs! Those celestial shrews and queens of copper! May they never cease to stain our white-bread lives with super-natural catsup Peace. Rustic P.S. Tom Robbins is coming out with a new novel in April!! Villa Incognito. I can't wait! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:04 AM Rustic, I think I know the film you are remembering. It is footage taken in orbit, and in the background are some intrigueing moving points of light. One of them is seen to shoot something fast towards another one. The 'missile' flies dead straight and is clearly unguided. The other ufo moves out of it's path. Hard to explain as space junk, but also not what you would expect from advanced aliens. Just another unexplained observation. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: TIA Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:23 AM 1) When considering the possibilty of extraterrestrial visitors to earth, it is always helpful to remember the (to humans) unimaginable distances between astronomical features. The nearest star (Proxima Centauri) is 0.4 light years away -- the light that we observe from that star left the star over five months ago (and remember light travels darn fast in a vacuum and there are serious physical problems with any living thing accelerating and deccelerating to and from light speed...think Challenger and multiply by a gazillion). The nearest galaxy to our own is 2,199,506 light years away. If humans were to attempt this journey (even at light speed - see above) we would actually evolve on the way (our ancestors were probably upright but quite ape-like 2 million years ago). 2) Hate to repeat myself in a thread, but Penny S. nailed it above -- archaeologist routinely recover and analyze evidence as inconsequential as individual fibers, pollen grains, etc... The chances of alien spacecraft and aliens visiting our ancestors, and interacting with them sufficiently to teach them to build the ancient wonders without leaving a single shred (speck, mote, particle...) of physical evidence is far-far-fetched. 3) Remember that skeptic is not a synonym of cynic. 4) On the nature of science...of course former scientifc "knowledge" has been disproven - that's the whole point. I forget whom I'm quoting, but scientifc theories are born scorned, some gain acceptance, but die disproven. That's the way it works. The whole idea is that ALL knowledge is open to testing and disproof. Yes, Carl Sagan was human, with human frailties, but as a scientist, he tried very hard to recognize those frailties and avoid letting them affect his conclusions. He almost certainly was not 100% effective at this, but he recognized the problem. The most anti-scientific attitude is absolute certainty. Doubt must be maintained. Skepticism is required to do science. 5) Extraterrestrial life is almost certainly out there somewhere. I hope to live long enough to see the evidence of it detected. It will be the most amazing scientific discovery ever. But if life does exist, but resides millions of light years away, I will probably not make it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:51 AM Worse than that. 4.0 not 0.4 light years to Proxima Centauri. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: TIA Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:04 AM Oops, my bad, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM "Could it be these RedBeards were extraterrestrials?" Anything's possible... but the lack of ANY evidence supporting the ET theory makes it HIGHLY unlikely... (Ask a cop... there's NOTHING more unreliable than "eyewitness testimony") What do I believe about UFO's? Well, kinda like Mulder's poster says I Want To Believe... or maybe "I'd LIKE To Believe" says it better... There are a couple of odd things that I've read about... experiences that make me go "Hummmmm?", like Travis Walton's case for example... But on the whole, I think the UFO Phenomenon is fuelled by delusion, misunderstanding, and hoax... There are simply too many rational explanations AGAINST UFO's to make belief in them reliable... (See TIA's post fopr just a basic few...) Seems like an awful long way to go, to cram a chrome dildo up Cleatuse's backside... Am I prepared to change my opinion in the light of new evidence?? Abso-frigg'n-lootly! Remember that universe I mentioned a few million threads ago, with the FTL travel and such.. I'd REALLY love to live in that place... (o.k... minus the anal probing I suppose...) But no matter how much I wish, it ain't gonna make it so... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Cluin Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:23 PM Not unless you were Billy Mumy from that old Twilight Zone episode... But then he did end up travelling in space with his modular family, a neurotic cyborg and an old fag. If he'd done it a couple of years later, they would have formed a pop group. You see where this kind of stuff can lead if you're not careful? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:24 PM "his modular family, a neurotic cyborg and an old fag" LOL!! Hey... didn't you and I used to be IN that band???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:35 PM Clinton - You use the term "credible sources". Those could be: For a loyal Nazi in 1944 - Hitler, Goebbels, and the official government line. For a loyal Republican in 1956 - Joe McCarthy For a loyal Japanese in 1944 - the Emperor and his commanding officer. For a loyal British soldier in 1776 - The British Crown. For a loyal Al-Queda soldier - Osama Bin Laden For the little old lady across the street who plays Bingo daily and knows practically nothing about anything - The Weekly World News For Clinton Hammond - anyone in an official position in government or science or the press or whatever who already doesn't believe in extraterrestrial visitors to this planet. For someone who has actually seen those visitors or their craft - anyone who does believe in them and has some kind of personal anecdotal or reasonably well documented information to support that belief, and who appears to be normal and trustworthy. Follow me? Your use of the term "credible" is arbitrary. Your beliefs are based on prejudice, not experience. Mine are based on an actual experience, which you don't know anything about and are in no position to cast judgement upon. None whatsoever. I know that like most people you are fond of your own version of reality, and will defend it...but belief in the non-existence of something that someone else has actually seen and you have not strikes the someone who has actually seen it as very stupid...to say the least. It's a form of wishful thinking on your part, because you like reality to remain the way you already think it is, and no exceptions to that. It's the willful maintenance of conventional ignorance as a function of habit. You say you are prepared to change your opinion in the light of new evidence. I don't think that's really true, unless that evidence were to come from certain specific sources...the official ones at the top. If it is already the case that those official sources, for their own vital reasons, are deliberately suppressing and debunking all such evidence, then that is not going to happen. That's convenient for you, Clinton, because it means you will never have to shift off dead center till hell freezes over or the system as we know it collapses around us. You're a good, loyal soldier, Clinton, who can be depended upon to echo the party line. That's my opinion. The party is generally in the business of lying to the people while it pursues its own private agendas. Those agendas are at the expense of humanity and in suppression of the truth about a great many things, not just UFO's. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM "Mine are based on an actual experience" What you've 'eperienced' on your glue trips is of very little consequence to me... Anybody dumb enough to say that stones are alive and mean it, needs to have their head examined... Accurate to say there's a life force in all things?? No... no it's not... It's new age spiritual codswallop |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: BuckMulligan Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:56 PM skepticism and empiricism have fallen victim to "cultural relativism" and the 60s-generated egalitarian movement that made the mistake of assuming "equality" means that "my reality is as valid as your reality" ("reality is perception.") Which is great for everyone's self-esteem, but isn't going to come up with a model of the way the world works that will allow us to really understand it and make progress towards making anything better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:58 PM Your beliefs are based on prejudice, not experience. Mine are based on an actual experience, which you don't know anything about and are in no position to cast judgement upon. None whatsoever. As if it had never happened yet that reported experiences have been found to be wrong. Lucid dreams, hallucinations, wrong memories, outright lies, wrong interpretation of a valid percept, failure of reality monitoring,... Of course, someone who has not had a particular experience can be in a position to cast judgement upon it. Or at least an educated guess. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Clinton Hammond Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:01 PM As I mentioned elsewhere... ask ANY cop/detective... he'll tell you there's NOTHING more unreliable than "Eye-witness testimony" |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: TIA Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:18 PM Personal revelation and experience and anecdote can be valid, instructive, inspiring, and a grand basis for spiritual beliefs or faith... but they hold zero scientific water. Scientifc evidence must be reproducable, and entirely independent of the observer. So far, as a matter largely of faith, but partially of statistics (life exists at one known place in the universe, the laws of physics seem to hold true throughout the universe, the universe is immense, therefore it is likely it exists elsewhere) I believe in extraterrestrial life. But there is not yet any reproduceable, physical (i.e. independant of observer) evidence that they have made it here. Also, remember Occam's Razor...There are myriad natural and technological sources for lights or unusual objects in the sky, odd mental images, and even physical sensations - all well known and all far less likely to violate current knowledge of physical laws than alien visitation. The simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. The explanation with the fewest requirements for unknown forces is most likely to be correct. As a skeptic who admires the wonder and surprise of this poorly understood universe, I always eagerly await the next scientific evidence that will completely upset current theories. Science is damn good fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Cluin Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:45 PM It's not Little Hawk's assertion that rocks are alive that troubles me. I'm an unapologetic animist myself. But I am worried by his many proclamations that William Shatner is a genius. Come back to the light, Little Hawk! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:18 PM Like I posted somewhere-I believe rocks are alive also. They are made up of energy- everything is energy, rocks being a dense form of those atoms that are energy. I'm going to go a step further and say-Yes I believe rocks have a consciousness. I believe everything does. Everything you see, is God to me. All that is, is God. So if I say rocks don't have a conciousness I am saying God doesn't either. That is my opinion on that. Thank-you Keith. I am glad I'm not the only one that saw that film. It was pretty convincing to me. Another theory to ponder-What if these space ships actually come from here? Like us from the future into the past. Now that is a trippy thought. Sounds like I'm getting into Spaw's time cube thing! Clinton- I'm going to go check out Travis Walton right now. Never heard of him either. One more opinion- I think Clinton and Little Hawk should kiss and make up! We all have our part in this huge play of life and diversity is what makes us all so interesting. Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:47 PM "Educated guess"? Yes. I'll go along with that, Wolfgang. That's exactly what Clinton's opinion is, it's an educated guess, as is mine. That's what most people's opinions are. Is it so hard to imagine that atomic structures are in some way alive, and that therefore there is a life force in all things? Does "life" have to mean biological life? Or can there be other forms of life? It all depends on words, people. There is no practical difference whatsoever in how Clinton and I see or deal with a rock. None. There is just a difference in what we mentally conceive of when we use the words "alive" or "life" as to exactly how we define that concept. I never said, Clinton, that a rock has consciousness, awareness, free will, muscles, blood, or that it is born, grows, or dies. Did I? If your definition of life does not extend to looking beyond such very obvious outward phenomena that even a child can easily observe then of course a rock is not "alive"...in your terms. Nor is a spirit. Nor is a thought. Nor is a concept. Hence you can easily dismiss all possibility of spiritual life, as well as a life force existing in atomic structures, I suppose. We are arguing about words, period, and are both of us are equally inclined to be rational, and there is no one around here sniffing glue. And there is something far more unreliable than eyewitness testimony...no witness at all. That's the position you are in at the moment regarding certain things you choose to believe are impossible or nonexistant...because you don't know about them yet, haven't encountered them, and are merely repeating something you've heard someone else say...which is exactly what most of humanity does most of the time. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: wilco Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM This discussion depends upon some pretty radical assumptions. The first is that humans are something other than another animal. The second is trying to give historical credibility to the Hebrew oral history, which had it's own socio-political agenda. It's like trying to reconcile the possibility of ghosts with the Eygyptian Book of the Dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM The Hebrew oral history? Please elaborate on that, wilco. Here are possibilities to suggest that humans are something other than another animal: Humans build and create a vast number of artificial things, many of which they do not actually need, but simply enjoy or find interesting or make a profit from. Some animals create a single thing...like a nest...which they do need. I see a key difference right there. Humans worry constantly about possible future events that they make up in their minds (the majority of which never happen). I don't believe animals do that...they live much more in the moment. Humans can think about the thinking process itself, and may discuss it at great length. I don't think animals do that at all. I may be wrong. So may you. So, what is so radical about suggesting that humans are not just another animal, unless all you can see when you look at a human is bones, soft tissue, and a biological structure. Yes, we have animal bodies, but we do other behavioural and mental things that are strikingly unlike the behaviour of animals. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: TIA Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM Little Hawk is correct about the lack of eyewitnesses case. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. (this is the old "can't prove the negative") I propose that a skeptic is generally a person who does not believe in un-eyewitnessed phenomena until evidence is offered. Believers may be inclined to believe even without evidence. Neither is "right" or "correct" while the jury is still out (i.e. when there is no evidence). Hopefully, when evidence appears, both the skeptic and the believer will evaluate it critically and honestly and adapt their beliefs acdcordingly. One who does not do this is a bigot. One who does will occasionally eat crow, but emerge far wiser and with greater credibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM Very well said, TIA. You have covered both bases accurately. All I would really ask of anyone is to consider the possibility that there is a life force in atoms, and the possibility that there have been visitations by UFO's seen by some people. If they are willing to consider it, then they are not bigots. I would think that a "new" (to someone) idea would arouse some curiosity or interest in people, not hostility and contempt...but I am often disappointed in that expectation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UFO's and the Bible From: Rustic Rebel Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:46 PM Clinton I'm trying to figure you out. Your reference to Travis Walton has me confused. Travis Walton claims to be an abductee. Missing 5 days in a Ufo. So I ask, were you being cynical or do you believe his story? Little Hawk- You have brought us to another interesting site. I am going to post a link here on military nuclear specialists that have come forward with what they have seen UFO's do. What intrested me on this was one of them describes the film I was talking about earlier about shooting the missle at a UFO.click here This will also bring you to the disclosure project. If you check out the disclosure project there is an interesting thing going on. Check out the George Noony show, transcripts with Dr. Steven Greer. Founder and director of the disclosure project and founder and international director of CSETI-center for the study of extraterrestrial intelligence. The last excerpt from this discussion went like this-Remember UFO's run on energy and propulsion systems that would replace the need for oil and gas. So the security has been mostly out of greed, not out of security. Peace. Rustic |