BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:26 AM

Brave man Leadfingers! I was a bit wary about this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:22 AM

Why must they destroy the buildings which exist there now as they pull out? Sems a waste to leave only rubble behind..perhaps they could leave the buildings intact so that the Palestinians are not inheriting a mess? (open mike)

We read over here that the destruction happens in agreement with the Palestinian authority. They have a need for high buildings housing many people and not for bungaloes.


In the last days one could see another instance of abuse of religion for political purposes (settlers in the synagogues). I hate when religion is used as a defense against political decisions wherever it happens. "You cannot do this because it is against our religion" is in my eyes never a valid argument against a democratic decision whether one agrees with the political aim of the group fighting the decision or not.


There is no such thing as Arabic Jews. Arabic is a language. (Le Scaramouche)
It surprises me that you would say that there are no Arabic Jews, Le Scaramouche (Carol)
I said no ARABIC Jews. It's pedantic, but Arabic is a language. (Le Scaramouche) (Le Scaramouche)
Thanks for the clarification, Le Scaramouche (Carol)

It looks more like a repetition to me than a clarification.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:22 AM

Why must they destroy the buildings which exist there now as they pull out? Sems a waste to leave only rubble behind..perhaps they could leave the buildings intact so that the Palestinians are not inheriting a mess?

What you say is true, Wolfgang, but not important.

Israel is withdrawing from Gaza, which would have to happen at some point.

Israel can avoid having Palestinians occupy buildings which people still see as their homes, and flying Palestinian Flags over their synogogues>. Any pictures of that would be like those of the Berlin Wall coming down, or the last helicopter leaving Vietnam, a powerful image summing up a great victory/defeat.

This is why the buildings are coming down. Occupying a patch of rubble may be significant, but it's not iconic.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM

But the sight of those bulldozers flattening the buildings in order to make sure that it was just a patch of rubble that was handed over was pretty iconic. As were pictures of olive plantations being rooted out, and greenhouses destroyed.

Still, at least they made sure there was noone in those buildings before they sent in the bulldozers, which hasn't always been the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:29 PM

heck with it,if you love them so much that you have to make there excuses for them, go live and be one for awhile,and the women can come back and tell us how great it was.
that is if they survive after being disrespectful to some male or other,they still have stones left.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson's Truthful Comments
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:53 PM

CarolC is a piece of dogshit on whole wheat toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:19 AM

jpk, I would be much more interested in what you have to say if you would go live with them yourself for a while.

There are people from all over the world, some of them women, from all religions - including Jewish, who are currently living in Palestinian villages, in Palestinian homes, to help protect Palestinians from the dangers they face because of the occupation. All of the accounts I have seen about what it is like for those people, living among the Palestinians, have been positive with regard to what the Palestinians themselves are like. Some of the women have even married Palestinian men. They have less positive things to say about what it's like to live under the occupation.

But what an astonishingly un-American thing to say to me, jpk... suggesting that I should have to leave the US for committing the sin of practicing free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:47 AM

Rachel Corrie tried doing what lower case expert jpk suggestes. So did Tom Hurndall.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:27 PM

the lawsuit is stupid,like sueing louisville sluger for making the ballbat that a gangbanger killed you with.i am sorry she died,but sueing cat is assanine,next we'll sue god[if you belive]for the sun coming up an causing skin cancer.
and if you don't like my one finger typing,don't read it.
you can go huddle with your victem buddies,always blaming someone or thing else for it all.
and like i said before,it is ok to chop someones head off if you do it in the name of islam[or torch,or stone,etc].

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

ps mcgrafh,i never claimed to be an expert,i'm just me.
and if you don't like it tough.tell you as i did martin gibson,stuff it.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:56 AM

jpk, the Palestinians are not resisting the occupation in the name of Islam. They are resisting the occupation in the name of freedom, liberty, and justice. Those are ideals we value here in the US as well, don't you think?

And not all Palestinians are Muslims. There are Christian Palestinians as well. They also suffer under the occupation. So if you can't get past your burning hatred of Muslims in order to have some compassion for the Palestinians who are Muslim, maybe you can find it in your heart to have some compassion for the Palestinians who are Christian.

Or maybe you're just not the sort of Christian who believes in compassion. That sort of Christian doesn't sound like much of a Christian to me.

BTW, Tom Hurndall was shot in the head by Israeli soldiers while trying to get some children out of the line of fire of those same soldiers. Maybe you think shooting at children is ok, but personally, I don't see much difference between shooting at children and beheading people, in terms of magnitude of badness. But that's just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:56 AM

CarolC, there is really no such thing as "free speech" here.
Seems like a person can pay dearly for every uttered word.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:24 AM

That may be so, GUEST, 25 Aug 05 - 07:56 AM. But we can pay just as dearly for the words we don't utter, and should.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:34 AM

We have a lot of free speech here in Mudcat. And the freedom to argue, debate and learn. I don't believe in political censorship, but I do think offensive and abusive comments, and the people who make them, such as GUEST,Martin Gibson's Truthful Comments - should be censored from mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

Freda,

I would certainly agree that some comments ( and people ) should be censored from Mudcat.

As long as I get to make the decision ( sarcasm).


The problem is that I find lies, threats, and abuse to be objectionable, yet most here seem to see no problem with them as long as they are directed at one's opponents.

I do not agree with a number of people here, but I will listen to what they have to say, expecting the same courtesy back.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM

Lest it looks that mistakenly being killed by Israelis is the only danger a woman faces in Palestine:

Killed for the family's honour

There is growing concern among Palestinian human rights workers after the killings of at least six young women in recent months. The murders are described in some quarters as "honour killings". The victims are usually accused of behaving improperly and bringing shame upon their families.

It is an old problem in that region. I don't know whether the book by Souad, Brulee vive is already available in English. The story of a young woman in Westjordanland burnt alive by her cousin for being pregnant. It is interesting to read what she knew about the Jews, BTW, though that is not the theme of the book.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

Interesting to note that the first woman mentioned was not a Muslim. Many people seem to be under the impression that only Muslims treat women badly. But on the positive side, it's good to see that the Palestinian authorities are taking the problem very seriously. The article in your link suggests that the problem is being made worse by the civil unrest in the territories that has been a byproduct of the occupation. But I have noticed that violence against women tends to increase in any kind of situation in which men are disempowered and disenfranchised, and are humiliated on a daily basis, as they are under this occupation. So to whatever extent you, Wolfgang, and others would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue, I would suggest that ending the occupation would the best way to help Palestinian women.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

The Gaza example will be vital as Israelis consider the future of their state, which sooner or later will have to contemplate a similar pullback from the West Bank. Jewish settlers there -- particularly those who live beyond the border-like system of fences and walls Israel is constructing -- are subject to the same logic that Mr. Sharon courageously articulated about Gaza: Their dream of holding the land forever is unattainable. As in Gaza, a withdrawal from the West Bank eventually will have to occur whether or not Israel receives any concessions from the Palestinians in return. But Palestinians, too, should have learned something: Israel is capable of making the pragmatic and painful sacrifices necessary for a lasting peace settlement. Palestinians have yet to convincingly demonstrate -- in deeds, as opposed to words -- that they can do the same.


That's why the first response to the question of what comes after Gaza must be: Gaza. The Palestinian Authority must prove that it is capable of setting up and leading a civilized democratic state. That means disarming Islamic extremist movements even while giving those groups the opportunity to compete peacefully in elections; channeling development aid quickly into labor-intensive development projects; and using force without hesitation against any attempt to use Gaza as a base for attacks against Israel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/24/AR2005082401902.html

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:11 PM

Guest 25 Aug 8:45---    Many comments are interesting and valid---and, there is free speech here. Unfortunately some posters---with one track --alleged-- minds (you know who you are ) make comments that are---to paraphrase dear old Will Shakespeare---"....full of sound and fury signifying NOTHING.

Sorry to ad my .02 fuel (though given the oil problem make it .05) to a truly air polluting and wasteful cyber-fire.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:34 AM

My my, Carol, your debating style doesn't help your position.

- You make sweeping generalisations without any foundation (Many people seem to be under the impression that only Muslims treat women badly. I have not read a single post yet taking this position. Would you consider it fair to read something like that about you?)

- you make assumptions about motives (your burning hatred of Muslims)

- you stereotype and lump together in a way you would criticise if someone else did it (to whatever extent you, Wolfgang, and others would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue)

I provide a link I consider interesting in this discussion just to restore a bit the balance in this discussion and you start stereotyping and lumping together very different Mudcatters who may share nothing more than that they do not always agree with you.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:54 AM

Another link some may find interesting though it's theme is much broader than the discussion in this thread:

Gender, sexuality and the criminal laws in the Middle East and North Africa: a comparative study

penal laws in most Arab countries treat women differently from men...based on the definition of their sexual roles...
Penal codes clearly discriminate against women and contradict international human rights norms ...
a useful resource for comparative analysis, and to equip women's rights activists with facts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:56 AM

I will add to that congratulations. The treatment of the palestinains has been a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM

-You make sweeping generalisations without any foundation (Many people seem to be under the impression that only Muslims treat women badly. I have not read a single post yet taking this position. Would you consider it fair to read something like that about you?)

I see we have a language problem again, Wolfgang.

Look up (in an English dictionary) the word, "seem" (hint, this means, in the context in which I used it, "gives the impression of", and yes, there have been quite a few people even here in the Mudcat who have given me this impression).

- you make assumptions about motives (your burning hatred of Muslims)

And so do you, Wolfgang. Quite frequently, in fact. Consider practicing what you preach.

- you stereotype and lump together in a way you would criticise if someone else did it (to whatever extent you, Wolfgang, and others would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue)

Language again... try to find a definition of the phrase "to whatever extent", and "would". (Hint - when put together, these words do not stereotype or make any assumptions. When used in this way, the phrase ensures that the thing being discussed is only applied to people who do the thing being discussed. If you don't, for instance, use human rights for women as a basis for your position on that issue, by virtue of that phrase, "to the extent that", and "would", my words do not apply to you.

I recommend becoming much more proficient in the English language before making these kinds of criticisms.

I provide a link I consider interesting in this discussion just to restore a bit the balance in this discussion and you start stereotyping and lumping together very different Mudcatters who may share nothing more than that they do not always agree with you

I have shown that because of your misinterpretation of my words, this statement by you is incorrect, and is, in fact, an example of exactly the sort of thing you are criticizing me for in your second point (making assumptions about motives). I await your apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:42 PM

BTW, Wolfgang, had I been assuming that "you...would use human rights for women as a basis for your position on this issue" (at least to some extent), I would have been giving you the benefit of the doubt and not making a negative assumption. I would hope you would at least consider the human rights of Palestinian women when determining what your position is on the issue of the occupation. Especially since you are posting things that critcise Palestinians on that issue. To do otherwise would be hypocritical. But I know better than to make that kind of assumption about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:23 PM

Carol C,
You mean someone has disagreed with you, and you choose to believe it is due to a linguistic problem. Once they understand you, everyone will agree. Is that what you mean?, as that is what you seem to be saying.

Ad homonim arguements are the last resort. Don't you have something better?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:59 PM

Not at all, Bunnahabhain. Wolfgang and I have had this problem before. Since he was disagreeing with something I did not actually say, I chose to assume that it was a language issue and not a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize my words, or a lack of ability to communicate based on any sort of lack of intelligence. I tried to assume the least unflattering explanation for his misrepresentation of my words because I knew how much he would appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:00 PM

The problem is that I find lies, threats, and abuse to be objectionable, yet most here seem to see no problem with them as long as they are directed at one's opponents.

Personally I find it much more objectionable when someone who is arguing from the same direction as me starts mouthing off in that kind of way. When someone in the other corner, so to speak, does it, there's a sense in which I recognise it as a self-inflicted wound.

I'd much rather not see it happening at all, because it messes up discussions, and I value good discussions, but if anybody is going to do it, I'd rather it was an adversary.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:04 PM

Sad to say--to repeat---"...sound and fury signifying nothing". Shakespeare knew you all those many years ago. What prescience.   

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:23 PM

Bill H, you really shouldn't be making those kinds of gratuitous personal attacks on McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 01:28 AM

as if you did not know who that was intended for---so clever ---as always---Carol

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 02:00 AM

Gratuitous personal attacks on me? Same thing, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:58 PM

dear carol,i really don't hate muslims or any one else mostly,however,i do detest fanatics of almost anything.
i am sorry that you may find some of what i believe,not to be to your liking.i am highly opininated in my believes,and not much given to change.
also i do not care for people who willingly belong to or associate with groups given to proffessed hatred and extermination of others[the plo,hamas,etc]i.e. the palistinians.
also,forgive the vain of the earlier post[not meaning],after rereading it,i relised how mg it appeared.an i regret that.
anywho,have a great day an bless all.
i also left out my normal closing,sorry bout that.you know how us southern transplants can be.
god day all.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:37 PM

Pedantic point: "Sound and fury signifying nothing" isn't really Shakespeare speaking as himself, they are the words he puts into Macbeth's mouth as a comment on life the universe and everything, to indicate that he is at his lowest point and completely given over to despair. Not really particularly relevant in this context.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Pedantic point #2: "Life" being a metaphor for a certain poster most aptly described in the last two lines of your post above---and it is not you whom I used Shakespeare to describe.

By the way---different topic (trivia)---do you know which Shakespearian play is not to be mentioned by name by actors for fear of bad luck---it is only referred to as The _________ Play.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

Pedantic point #3:
How do you pronounce '_________'

The question should be, I suggest`: Which Shakespearian blah blah blah, is called 'The Scottish Play'?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

Ah, but since I'm posting in my own name here, I wouldn't count as an actor. (Nor would Bill or Carol, for the same reason.)

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

... or 'referred to as...', to be precise...

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:35 PM

Thanks for the clarification, jpk.

The point that I am asking you to consider is this one... not all Palestinians are guilty of what you are condemning all of them for when you say "the Palestinians". Some of them are, but the ones who are not, don't deserve your condemnation. That's a very important point, I think, and one that I believe a person who is genuinly Christian in his or her beliefs can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:39 PM

Guest: That would have been a giveaway since McGrath had mentioned the name of the play----do you think since I am on the radio I should say The Scottish Play for fear of bad luck were I to say the name---dare I utter it---Macbeth.   

Now--off to the dry cleaner to get out that damned spot.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/14/AR2005091402169.html

"The Gaza withdrawal should have been a step toward an Israeli-Palestinian settlement; instead, it could become a leap away from it. The big winner so far is Hamas, which rejects Israel's existence. In Israel, continuing disorder will give a boost to hard-line challengers to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the architect of the Gaza evacuation. As it is, Mr. Sharon probably will reiterate in an address to the United Nations today that Israel will consider no more territorial withdrawals or other concessions to the Palestinians until militant groups are dismantled. Unless Palestinian and Egyptian leaders take immediate steps to fulfill their commitments in Gaza, they will bear the responsibility for a new stalemate -- or worse -- in the Middle East."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

http://www.semitism.net/node/221?PHPSESSID=19e791b42c334a3dbaf3d9a56a3fc696