Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:32 PM

I think an oft-quoted observation made by T.S. Eliot concerning writing applies to traditional music and "alien" traditions, etc.: Bad writers borrow; good writers steal. (Or words to that effect). If you are "good" enough to make the song or tune your own, you're cool with me; if you're bumbling and fumbling with a song or tune that is clearly not yours, well then ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Brendy
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:39 PM

I'm a bit wary of the term 'Cultural Imperialism' as regards any kind of influence. Surely the term should be 'Cultural Assimilation'

Sub-trees of any musical genre, precisely because of their inherent similarities, can blend quite well: Scottish & North of Ireland traditional music, for example.
Some musics may be either technically more interesting, or on a deeper level, hit certain spots within the soul which no academic explanation can ever cover in totality.

The marketing of the 'Product' will always pick up curious devotees, but whatever the base music is, it still stays the same and is played by people because it is theirs, and it moves them.

Music expresses things that words cannot; and if the music is of the people, it will reflect daily life of the Community, and the hills and dales and of the area.

Empathy at least is needed to sucessfully play another's Culture's music. I am reminded here of a John Doyle video clip I saw, some time ago where he was explaining how he arrived at some of the progressions he did.
In the 60 sec or so clip, he must have used the word 'Feel' about 20 times, just at those points when a good old verbal explanation was needed for the uninitiated.

I know how he feels.
Somethings one can't quite quantify when one language is used to describe another; it ends up as kind of musical anthropomorphism.

Many people do drift to Irish music, but I think the majority of what 'damage' Richard alludes to as been 'done' outside of the Celtic Isles. Remember that Irish, Scottish, and English traditional and Folk have been intertwined for years... (leave the Welsh, Cornish, & Manx out of it for the minute...)
I studied and continue to study Renbourn, Carthy, Simpson, Newman, etc., and 'Matty Groves' was well on my repertoire long before 'Little Musgrave' was, for example.

I don't know, Richard.
People with no sense of their own musical tradition, perhaps....?
Some people just don't see the beauty in their own (Prophet is never accepted..., and all that...)

Music makes me laugh sometimes, with its inherent jocularity. Some of Paddy Canny & P.J. Hayes' compositions have me in stitches on a regular basis. Still after 20 years of learning them, perhaps.

I cannot explain that verbally

Di did il doodilly i dil di, dit il dootilly i til
The first 2 bars of 'The Bucks'
(key optional, but generally in a major one...)

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:14 PM

There are several types of people.

First, I shall discuss "the rest". Enough said. OK, moving on...

Now we have the "B-graders" - often called 'wannabes'. These people copy slavishly the "A-graders", picking apart any other B-grader's attempts to 'do' anything the A-graders do, as it is always just 'not right'. Of course these wannabes also often dump on any true A-grader that they may stumble across unless they are TOLD (by one of the other A-graders usually) that so & so is a A-grader.

The "A-graders"? - well they just DO it, without thinking too much about the WHY or WHAT really very much.... ;-) The B-graders often call then 'geniuses', etc...

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Brendy
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:25 PM

One has to remember also however , Foolestroupe, that the only bottleneck in the whole journey between the creative spark in the brain that tells you that THIS note MUST go in HERE, and the key or fret-board, are the fingers.

Technical dexterity is another matter entirely, and every rocket scientist knows (though it is not, as yet, a job requirement), that Ry Cooder or Eric Clapton, or Steve Vai are just waiting around the corner.

There is no word for 'Arrogance' in the language of music
It is done. Period.

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:43 PM

Yes Brendy,

THE THREE WORDS...

Practice, practice, practice...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 19 May 06 - 12:12 AM

"Many people do drift to Irish music, but I think the majority of what 'damage' Richard alludes to as been 'done' outside of the Celtic Isles."

Isn't that Richard's point?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 06 - 12:23 AM

One of the things that makes me glad I don't play Irish music is the posessiveness some people have about who should be allowed to play it.

Of course, I've participated in sessions with people from Ireland who couldn't imagine that anyone would want to play anything else.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 May 06 - 12:38 AM

On that A-grader and B-Grader thing, everyone knows who the B-Graders are, except the B-Graders themselves. Mike of Northumbria, thanks for the book recommendation--I am looking for a copy of "The Invention of Tradition" even as we speak.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:17 AM

Martin Ryan took me to a fiddle session in Dublin when I visited there - it seemed to me that almost half of the participants were Asian, all about 30 years old. I thought the session would be closed to all but aging Irish males, so this surprised me.
The aging Irish males were singing US-style "country" music in the West of Ireland.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:11 AM

"Isn't that Richard's point? "

Well, on one level it seems to be, but if the 'empathy' is there, the problem shouldn't arise.

Are we discussing the effect of marketing, or the flighty fancy of passing afficiandos?
One of the best pipers I know is Swedish. I have a good friend in Denmark who is arguably one of the best fiddlers around, both of whose style and body language, I have no trouble predicting.

I don't know...., I think it is an imperfect premise to begin with

Practice, of course, Foolstroupe. But we must never dwell in the notion that it will ever make 'Perfect' somewhere down the line.
Someone asked Segovia once when did he learn to play the guitar (he was in his late '80's at this stage). Segovia just laughed and said 'I learn something new every day'

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:26 AM

The situation Joe has outlined above, could alo be interpreted as indicative of people who are at ease with their own Culture, as well, and who don't see it as any bad reflection on their own Nationality or Culture.

It isn't really where you are from that matters in these situations. It's sort of who you are...

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:31 AM

A note for Greg, who wrote:

>>Ponder well: all innovation is not going to lead to tradition:yea verily, not even the one hundredth of a one hundredth part. <<

I agree with the general sentiment of that observation, though I'd quibble about the exact ratio. But the really important thing is to keep scattering the seeds, even if most of them do seem to fall on stony ground. (See St Mark's gospel, ch4, verses 3-8). Or as William Morris put it in more secular language, in "The Dream of John Ball":

"... I pondered on all these things, and how men fight and lose the battle, and the thing that they fought for comes about in spite of their defeat, and when it comes, turns out not to be what they meant, and other men have to fight for what they meant under another name - while I pondered all this, John Ball began to speak again. ' ... he who doeth well in fellowship, and because of fellowship, shall not fail though he seem to fail today, but in days hereafter shall he and his work yet be alive, and men be holpen by them to strive again, and yet again'. "

Amen to that.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 06 - 06:00 AM

And didn't William Morris also say "A little bit of what you fancy does you good"?. The emphasis is on the "little"..this applies to innovation, singer song-writers in folkclubs, people learning foreign tunes, and cayenne pepper.
    Come to think of it, it might not have been William Morris. Perhaps it was Yeats.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 19 May 06 - 06:11 AM

M. Ted - well I'm a White Guy, and I went to college (in the dim of yesteryore) but I've come late to an appreciation of blues didn't have much feel for them in the college days), and don't play & sing them very much. When I do play the blues, I make no attempt whatsoever to "imitate" the originators - to "get it right" in your phrase. My finger-picking, however, while clearly not an imitation of MJH, or Cotton or Baker, is just as clearly derived from their styles. So if your definition of "it" is "play/sing it like these other guys" then of course one can't "get it right" unless one is a consummate mimic. OTOH, since the style is my own, I can't "get it wrong." IS it blues? I dunno, maybe not, even you assume that the canon is closed. Is it? Maybe not, if you assume up front that only black folk can do blues.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:27 AM

M Ted

I love your addition to the B-graders! I like it so much I'm going to incorporate it into my philodophy of lfe! Thanks!
:-)

Although possibly, 'the rest' may not be able to tell the difference? :-)

Hmmm, life is composed of three types of people, those who make things happen, those who watch it happen, and those who wonder what happened!

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Santa
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:51 AM

Ron: Perhaps it goes back to your roots analogy. Roots are what nourish and inform everyone's approach to life and music. The mature plant has a root system that has grown and expanded into new volumes (which may or may not be the same material in which it began). But the best way to transplant a plant is to take the roots with it, not chop them off and throw them away.

It may be that turning your back on your home traditions is necessary (or at least common) as a development stage, in order to experience the new. Like the scientific/philosophical approach of thesis then antithesis leading to synthesis. But anyone who stops at the antithesis is stopping in the wrong place.

Yes, a singer/musician can stand up and deliver a blues, then a Scots ballad, then an Irish jig, then a touch of kletzmer. But isn't this just mimicry? A stage show, full of sound and fury but delivering - what? A passing entertainment, not in itself to be mocked, true.

If a musical tradition really does reach deep into the hearts, minds and souls (whatever we may understand by the term) of the people to which it belongs, then it is not capable of being picked up in a moment of study and the copying of a characteristic or two. What we absorb in our childhood we carry for our lives: it takes much more effort in adulthood to learn or change our ways. Perhaps it is true, if you stay and work hard for forty years then you can be fully accepted (as described above). You've then grown a new set of roots: but until then you are not experiencing or reproducing the music in the same way as you would have done growing up there.

I think that anyone, musician or otherwise, will do a better job by building on their past life and experience rather than starting again with a blank slate. To reject your early experience seems foolish, and unlikely to produce worthwhile results. Though, to be fair, this may be underestimating the adaptability of human beings.

Or are different forms of music just something superficial, to be taken up, worn seemlessly and then tossed aside?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:03 AM

Santa: my "past life" didn't include working on the land, encountering faeries or slaying toffs. So although I was born and live in a part of England, why should I be more at home with music concerning these things than I am playing Irish reels (some of which originated in Scotaland) or Irish hornpipes (some of which originated in England ?

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:12 AM

GUEST Jim: no reason at all to sing songs about faeries and toffs if they dont interest you. But as you seem to like jigs, reels and hornpipes, why not put in a proportion of your time playing the dance tunes of the part of England where you live. You may find they are just as rewarding as the Irish ones, and you may pass them on to the next generation. If you dont like them, dont bother. It's not a chore. Just a suggestion.
   I've had a lot of pleasure doing just this. My family are Cumbrian. There are a couple of thousand(ish) Cumbrian fiddle tunes to choose from. I've found plenty enough good ones to keep me occupied. Go for it. And sure, I play Irish tunes and cajun tunes as well. We live in the age of radio,TV, CDs, computers. Why not take advantage and look around. I like salami and chorizo, but a big plate of Cumberland sausage, cabbage and mash always hits the spot.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:37 AM

Crikey - the last sentences of my 6:11 post ("IS it blues? I dunno, maybe not, even you assume that the canon is closed. Is it? Maybe not, if you assume up front that only black folk can do blues.") got bargled up in an apparent insufficiency of caffeine.

Shoulda said something like "Is it blues? Dunno, guess it depends on whether you believe the canon is closed, or the definition is sometihng like 'Blues are what's played by [black] blues guys and we know they're blues guys because they're black and play the blues.' "

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 May 06 - 09:00 AM

To a large extent I find the choice is taken out of my hands: songs are like cats - they choose you, not the other way round.

I've sometimes deliberately sat down and learned a song for a particular reason or occasion, but often it refuses to stay learned. But there are hundreds of songs that I never consciously learned: they just decided to stay in my mind. Some of them I didn't particularly like, but they must have "spoken" to me in some way.

Trad, pop, music hall, whatever - it's the individual song rather than the specific genre or origin that's important to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 06 - 10:34 AM

Greg: I've already been there done that and got the Arran teeshirt. I've never seen convincing proof that any of the "local" english dance tunes I played for years were in any way linked to where I live. I shudder to think of what I passed on to succeeding generations whilst playing them. But thanks for the tip.

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 06 - 11:22 AM

GUEST Jim: which bit of England, and what tunes did you play? Maybe I could send you a more appropriate list? It rather depends where. I know nothing of the folk music of Hertfordshire, for example, but quite a lot about Cumbria and Lancashire.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 May 06 - 11:42 AM

Greg

The industrial north. I think any original tradition was flushed away by the massive population movements out of and into the area during the industrial revolution. Indeed perhaps before that - even before industrialisation it wouldn't have neem an area you'd want to have spent any more time in than was absolutely necessary - poor soil, heavy rain, steep hills etc. The Romans seem to have been wise enough to have left most of it alone. I doubt that the natives ever had time to sing play or dance - too busy trying to scrat a living.

I played in the Lancashire tradition and still aren't averse to decent "lancashire" dance tunes but the other stuff that went with them (I can play a rousing version of Gathering Peascods) just seemed a bit false.

Fact is, at the sessions I now attend the music's 99% instrumental and I'm not obliged to pretend to be dewy-eyed by songs about things I have no experience of - either in rural England or Ireland. I like it that way.

Thanks for your offer though, it's very good of you.

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:15 PM

"Yes, a singer/musician can stand up and deliver a blues, then a Scots ballad, then an Irish jig, then a touch of kletzmer. But isn't this just mimicry? "

Most performers are mimicking something.   As guest Jim pointed out, most of us have not shared the same experiences from the folk songs we sing.   Because I have never hunted a whale, should I be precluded from singing whaling songs? I was not at the Battle of Waterloo, should I not sing songs of Napoleon? I was not a slave, but should I ignore the songs of that era?

"What we absorb in our childhood we carry for our lives: it takes much more effort in adulthood to learn or change our ways."

That may very well be true, but so what? Are you suggesting that we stop learning and experiencing? Are we doomed to fill someone elses expectations?   Should music be considered an "arranged marriage"?

Is there a genetic link between culture and the individual? I certainly hope not.

Music can be a great textbook. We learn about history and people. Why not share in the experience?

Nationalism can be very ugly. Sharing traditions will promote understanding.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:41 PM

"Sharing traditions can promote understanding". Well, sure it can, but for there to be different traditions to share, we need a few preceding conservative generations who weren't quite so keen on sharing. Otherwise all the traditions will have turned to grey goo before we get our hands on them. I love meeting Kurds and hearing their Kurdish wild and wonderful songs. I am delighted they aren't all singing Beatles songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:49 PM

"Well, sure it can, but for there to be different traditions to share, we need a few preceding conservative generations who weren't quite so keen on sharing. Otherwise all the traditions will have turned to grey goo before we get our hands on them."

I don't agree with that. You can't stop evolution. To expect any culture to freeze in time and tradition would be a huge mistake.   Traditions are meant to be alive, and they will also evolve through time.

You can't change history, nor prevent it from happening. What we can do is preserve as much as we can and share it in any form that is available to our modern culture. The "goo" won't turn grey, but we will be able to understand how it was composed and replicate our own "goo" in the future.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Ernest
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:00 PM

There`s place for both approaches: nobody prevents you to play one tune in a traditional way and the next one modernized.

And I always found the Irish people, who have a living tradition quite open to other kinds of music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:35 PM

Ron Olesko: of course I dont wanrt to stop evotion and freeze things. For a srtart, you can't, obviously.You dont know, but believe me its the experiments with African percussion and English music through the 70's and 80's, and all the wierd fusion theatre music I dd, that made me persona non grata in a lot of circles. I love other cultures, and learning their music, and interqacting with them. ASll I am trying to point out is that for this interaction to occur, there have to be different cultures to start with, SO there is always a continuous creatve attention beitween innovative mixing, and a conservative maintenance of the old ways of separation. Individuals can move freely along this spectrum at different stages of their life. But all I say is, thank God for ther Irish people who kept the jigs andd reels going, and didnt all learn samba drumming instead. And vice versa. Those who maintain the traditions are the people who give us the choice to mix and fuse when we want. Both viwpoints depend on each other, so neither can be wrong.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:38 PM

"continuous creative tension " that should have been, not "creative attention" .I never could write accurately (or play accurately, for that matter).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:44 PM

Now I understand the point you were making Greg and I do agree. There is room for both.

The only problem I have is that it seems we divide into separtist factions when we talk about traditional and any sort of contemporary alteration. There should be mutual respect, even if the product that is being produced is not to an individuals taste.   

I think you made your point very clearly and I agree with you Greg.   Of course, you now have me curious about the mix of African percussion and English music!!! I've heard the Afro-Celt Sound System and never cared for their brand, so I can only imagine what your experience may have sounded!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:10 PM

One of the things I love about Finnish music (at least the kind I play... waltzes), is the blending of cultures that is being discussed in this thread.

Finland is bordered by Scandinavia on one side, and Russia on the other. I find that Finnish waltz tunes have the most satisfying and delightful mix of the brightness of Scandinavian music, and the dark moodiness of Russian music (alternating between the two several times within one piece). And I like this combination even better than either Scandinavian or Russian music alone.

But it's not in the least "superficial" for me to play these tunes even though I didn't grow up in the culture. In fact, what would be superficial would be for me to play them, even if they didn't produce a deep connection and emotional response within me, just because I had grown up in the culture.

I am attracted to and play music that allows me to express what I have to say emotionally and creatively. I don't care where it comes from. If it does that much for me, I want to play it.

And since I am fairly liberated in terms of not having any kind of musical "heritage" to bind me, or to require me to carry it on, there really isn't any reason why I shouldn't.

I tend to doubt the people of Finland would have any problem with me playing their music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Santa
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:46 PM

Ron: I am not suggesting that people shouldn't attempt to share, or try something new, and never have suggested that. What I believe is that those who reject their own heritage in favour of supposed greener fields elsewhere are missing out, compared with those who integrate their experiences.

Jan: Maybe music really is so superficial that tunes have no roots in geography - I'm no musician, so I'd have to take your word for that. But is it really true the music is completely promiscuous? Is it just chance that certain styles of playing are found in specific localities? Words certainly do tie songs to places - not that stops them being hijacked, of course, whereupon they will come to mean something to those in the new location.

I've never been a miner, either, but I did grow up in the Durham coalfield, and the songs of the North East still stir me in a way that others don't, despite 30-odd years in Lancashire and some time before that Down South.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:59 PM

Santa, it would seem to me that someone who grew up in the coalfields of West Virginia (USA) would be more able to fully understand and appreciate the songs from the coalfields in Britain than, say, someone who grew up in a farming area, or in a seaport town in either the US or Britain, if that sort of thing is what makes songs relevant to people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:33 PM

"What I believe is that those who reject their own heritage in favour of supposed greener fields elsewhere are missing out, compared with those who integrate their experiences."

Santa, I do see your points and I think we are in agreement about integrating experiences.   I'm just not sure if I share your view of people who "reject" their own heritage. Perhaps it is because I live in the United States were cultures were "blended" (for lack of a better word) and new traditions were formed. Carol C said it very eloquently - "I am attracted to and play music that allows me to express what I have to say emotionally and creatively". For those of us on this side of the Atlantic, I think our culture was created on adopting traditions which hit us emotionally.

Perhaps it is a bit different in the U.K. where separate cultures seem to have longer roots and lifespans.

What I think we are all witnessing is accelerated cultural changes and modes of transmission. Since the 20th century began I believe our lifestyles have changed dramatically and it is harder to maintain certain traditions. Where once enclaves of culture were maintained due to boundries set by geography, economy and technology - today our "borders" and limitations are no longer obstacles. The fact that all of us are able to hold this "conversation" and share our ideas - practially in an instant - is an example. 100 years ago such a converstion would not have been possible without being in the same room, or requiring lengthy letters that would have taken months to reach this point of the discussion.   Likewise our "entertainment" needs are fed by television, radio, movies, books, the Internet, etc. - items that can be shared globally with appeal to all interested parties.   The need for "local" entertainment has changed and become somewhat different from holding a weekly dance and get together in the town center of a century or more ago.

In my estimation, there will always be those that are drawn to "their" culture and will do what they can to preserve it. Don't forget, the folk revival of the early 20th century was spawned because of people who were afraid of losing their culture - comments that are echoed in 2006 by people in this thread. The traditions were saved and handed down back then, and I think they will in the future.   The traditions won't be "rejected" - they just might not be as widely adopted as they once were - but then, they really aren't needed to be.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Brendy
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:22 PM

Yes, a singer/musician can stand up and deliver a blues, then a Scots ballad, then an Irish jig, then a touch of kletzmer. But isn't this just mimicry?

If the music speaks to the person, then the musician has it from both sides: he/she is entertained, therefore he/she entertains.
I have seen many a solo musician lose the contact with the people, because their eyes are tracing the 'large W' across the venue all of the time. They lose concentration, interest, and later, engagement, in what they do.
They might as well just be having a bad day at the office.

Thank God, I have never had a bad day at the office in about 15-20 years.

I know German people who sing 'Lisdoonvarna' with a Christy Moore accent; Norwegians and Swedish bands frantically trying to 'Out-Shane-McGowan' each other.
... and I know many Europeans who speak perfect English with every accent under the sun from Ireland.

Mimicry?
Some of it is, granted.
A lot of it is not, however

I learned to speak Oslo Norwegian. People still find it hilarious when a County Armagh dialect gets its teeth into some of the sounds they have: 'Æ' 'Ø' 'Å', etc.
That's my roots coming through.

There are also some people whose first exposure to the English language were from the TEFL corps (Teach English as a Foreign Language); Dublin people, Wigan people, etc.

Because we know the language from our own perspective, we don't often question this first exposure people from other countries get.

If it is mimicry, then we all are mimics. Even our children, who will invariably pick up the first language and musical experiences from their area.

I doubt that the natives ever had time to sing play or dance - too busy trying to scrat a living.
Taking that statement to its logical conclusion, no music (especially Blues) would have ever developed.

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 20 May 06 - 01:42 PM

Brendy

I know nothing about the working conditions of southern states plantation workers so will not take issue with you over the blues.

Historically speaking, economic (no money), social (scattered population) and theological (puritanical) conditions here suggest to me that music singing and dancing were unlikely to have been on the agenda for ordinary people in this part of the world during the 16th 17th and 18th centuries. That's all I'm saying.

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 May 06 - 02:00 PM

But with no entertainment laid on by TV, radio etc what did people do at the end of the working day?

I would wager that family song sessions would have been found, even in the poorest areas and the Puritan tradition would have gone by the board by the time of the Industrial revolution.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 May 06 - 02:27 PM

"Historically speaking, economic (no money), social (scattered population) and theological (puritanical) conditions here suggest to me that music singing and dancing were unlikely to have been on the agenda for ordinary people in this part of the world during the 16th 17th and 18th centuries."

Alright, I'll assume you're talking about North America. So where did all those ballads, songs, dance tunes and stories come from?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 20 May 06 - 02:37 PM

Jacqui.c:

they went to bed because they were tired and often couldn't afford candles or lamp oil

Michael:

No, northern UK

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 May 06 - 03:31 PM

Alright, my mistake, I should have followed the discussion more closely. But do you really mean to say you believe there was no music and dancing in the northern counties, the borders and Scotland during the sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth centuries?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Ernest
Date: 21 May 06 - 05:05 AM

Jim, you don`t need light to sing. And even the hearth-fire gives you (at least a little) light.

Then people used to sing while they worked. Have you ever heard about shanties or waulking songs, for example)?

On the contrary singing was the pastime even poor people could afford.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 21 May 06 - 11:25 AM

I have a friend who grew up in a home in which lamp oil was a precious commodity - so his mother would put them to bed early and sing to them the ballads that had been passed down to her.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: autolycus
Date: 21 May 06 - 12:15 PM

Fascinating discussion.

   The fact that there are conservers and there are explorers might be abn answer to the question/comment that starts along the lines of "I can't understand people who ...../Why do .....?"

   I notice that most of the discussion has centred on the folk traditions of the West, except for the African element of the blues. Is there much interchange/exchange of material between folk-singers/songwriters of the West with those outside that area?




    Ivor

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:36 PM

GUEST Jim: your assertions about the lack of music/song/dance in the north of England in the 16/17/128th century are just flabbergstingly wrong. I'm not going to divert and distub this thread by supplying chaper and verse for what I'm saying, I'm just suggesting you go to a libary or whatver and have a look at the subject. This is a perfectly ;iterate well documented part of the world with ample documentaion for its customs, its music, its songs, its tunes. Believe me, the area was heavng with creative singsrs, professional pipers and fiddlers, dances everywhere. Plenty of music publishers were publishing traditional dance tunes form the north of England from the period you are talking about, for a start. The north was music world, it was running out of their ears. Just as a trivial point, but it illustrates what I am saying. There are seven completely different fiddle tunes called "The Manchester Hornpipe". They didnt come from a poulace without music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:36 PM

"Historically speaking, economic (no money), social (scattered population) and theological (puritanical) conditions here suggest to me that music singing and dancing were unlikely to have been on the agenda for ordinary people in this part of the world during the 16th 17th and 18th centuries."

"But with no entertainment laid on by TV, radio etc what did people do at the end of the working day? "

Probably sleep and get ready for the next day.

I don't want to speak for Jim, but I do see some truth in what he says. The Puritans were not party animals. Music and dance was NOT considered proper. Here in the U.S., celebrations were actually outlawed in parts of the colonies. Even today, there are sects of Amish that do not partake in music and dance.

Of course, you can not stop music. There were many cultures that readily adopted to these arts.   However, the use of music and dance was quite different in the past.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:07 PM

A few things, the term 'Puritan' is far too broad to encompass the various protestant sects, Calvinist and otherwise, in the north of Britain during time frame mentioned. Besides, people have ways of flaunting no-fun rules like that, and as Greg pointed out, northern English music is well-documented and the record speaks for itself.

It is difficult to preserve your own folk traditions if you don't even believe you have folk traditions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Tootler
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:57 PM

To add to that, Parish Churches all over England had their West Gallery bands to provide music for the services. Tunes for hymns were often written by local people. These bands would also provide music for local dances as well.

In the 19th century, in the industrial towns there was a major growth of brass bands, choral societies and male voice choirs many of which achieved and still achieve professional standards. Remember people in the towns worked very long hours at that time. Such music making is still very much a tradition in parts of Britain today.

The people who played in such groups were not the leisured classes but ordinary people holding down ordinary jobs.

Who said there was no time for music making in past centuries?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 May 06 - 07:11 PM

"It is difficult to preserve your own folk traditions if you don't even believe you have folk traditions."

I'm not sure how you are drawing that conclusion. Did either Jim or myself say that we do not believe we have folk traditions? That is far from what I said, and re-reading Jim's note I don't think he was saying that either.

My comments are directed at several cultures here in the U.S. where music and dance were NOT an integral part of their daily lives. Fortunately there were other religions and cultures at work HERE that did have a more encompassing view.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 06 - 07:56 PM

The fact that so many Americans so put so much effort into discovering and re-visiting their "roots" surely indicates that the human psyche attaches a deeper meaning to culture or cultural inheritance (I think this may not be the word I want) than simply that which is learned or formally recorded - they are trying to identify something that is part of nature not nurture.

It would also seem that there is a general suspicion of those who adopt in other spheres an inheritance (in this sense) that is alien to them - for example the self professed members of extinct American Indian tribes, who, in full tribal regalia, live in small suburban English houses, rather to the incredulity of their neighbours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:53 PM

A couple of Chapters..., and a few verses, greg
Music has a tendency to only go underground during puritanical times. Music happens within oneself, and therefore will out.

One must have great respect for the likes of Ann Briggs and Louis Killen, for instance for helping to keep the tradition alive.

There mightn't have been much going on in the centuries you speak of, Jim, but be guaranteed, they sang and danced about it, anyway.

B.