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BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: TRUBRIT Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM Lizzie -- I am with you -- but understanding that kids can and will and do have sex far younger than we might be comfortable with -- then SAFE SEX has to be taught--we cannot have children having children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:23 PM Nope, we need to re-evaluate what we're doing, what we're telling them. We need, as parents to get this stuff out of kids magazines, off the CDs, out of our TVs. And, we need to make sure we know what schools are telling our children, because believe you me, the video my daughter was shown, at primary school...well, if I'd have shown it to kids off the street, I'd have probably been arrested and labelled a pervert! Once they get to high school, parents aren't told or involved at all, and it's up to the individual headteacher to decide on what is taught. Soon, you'll be preaching 'safe sex' to 7 year olds, the rate we're going, and trust me, even 7 year old are WAY too aware of themselves. Our children have been robbed of their childhoods and we have let those who choose to do it, do it. 13 year olds don't need babies. They need love and affection from their parents, for a start off, then they might not need to seek it elsewhere...but to be honest, it's not that is it. We've reduced love down to 'sex' and 'sex' to be nothing more than a physical act, which has to be tried as soon as possible, because the kids are given the impression by the acres of sex lessons they have to endure, that everyone is at it by the time they're 11. The world has gone stark raving bonkers. We had 30 minutes of Mrs. Smallworth sitting on her desk trying to look cool, talking about the birds and the bees...and you know what, not one of my school mates got pregnant, and I went to the roughest school in the area. We were 14 when we had that lesson. It was the first lesson we ever had about sex. We had it only as girls, and the boys had a male teacher, in another room. There was lots of talk about love and settling down, getting married etc. Little else, nowt about contraception or things that go bump in the night...Just about what happened, but it was kind of way off in the future... We looked a little embarrassed, as a class, muffled a few giggles and then got on with our lives. The way forward is not to keep preaching safe *anything* to younger and younger children, it's for society to wake up to what the hell is happening here.. Our children are being 'groomed' by some damned dodgy people, and no-one seems to care. Safe Sex for Primary School Children....I can see it happening, I truly can, if we go on the way we're going... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:37 PM "Safe Sex for Primary School Children" Well I learned about sex at primary school. The basics of what mummies and daddies do when they love each other and how that makes a baby. So why not about what 'mummies and daddies' do when they love each other and don't want to make babies? As I said earlier in this thread, some of the lovliest and least embarrassing sex education I had was at second year juniors. I'm fairly sure we learned about willies and fannies and what went where, but it was such a long time ago, it's tricky to recall it all. Except that it was really lovely and interesting, and just nice. Like it should be really! All I remember in strong detail was the nice lady teacher explaining stuff, and us all asking questions, and those anatomical pictures we all drew of nudey men and ladies 'cuddling' in bed! I know we learned about milk from ladies bosoms, and wombs, and periods and eggs and... I swear, sex education years *after* that utterly fascinating and shameless introduction, was utter and total shite! Good on my primary school! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: The Sandman Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:42 PM The world has gone stark raving bonkers.[about forty years ago ] Call me old fashioned, whatever, but I do truly think we've lost the plot. is that a royal we . meanwhile thousands of people are dying of starvation in Zimbabwe. the GOVERNMENT of ICELAND has gone bankrupt ,lots of Icelanders have lost their life savings. in Australia there have been over 100 deaths from bush fires . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:41 AM "meanwhile thousands of people are dying of starvation in Zimbabwe. the GOVERNMENT of ICELAND has gone bankrupt ,lots of Icelanders have lost their life savings. in Australia there have been over 100 deaths from bush fires . " ...and 10 year olds are having sex. Sorry Dick, but this is important too. And Rosie, we were just left to be children at primary school...We didn't have to draw pictures of 'nudey' people...and to be honest, I find it all disturbing. Did you ever watch that documentary on primary school kids, in Somerset, a few years back now? It was about the sex education they received. It happened over a two week period, where every day they were told something about 'what goes on'...in between these two weeks, they took them on holiday, camping, for a week. I watched it with my mouth open, I'm afraid... No gentle introduction at all, the hard, basic facts, the videos, the birth videos, (yup, my daughter had that one too, but we weren't told about that one), very little was left to the imagination, or told in a 'wifty wafty' way.. So, off they trot, on their holipops...and guess what happens...? Yup, the conversation around the campfire is totally sex orientated with the most basic of grammar being used. And then, some of them disappeared into the woods on their own. Of course, the teachers were panicking fit to burst, when they eventually found out... Geez! Sorry, but I don't get it. I also don't get why 13 year old are told about oral sex, 'to cut the pregnancy levels'....???? That idea came from the think tank (thinking?) at Exeter University, who came up with the bright idea that if kids did that, then they'd be able to satisfy the normal teenage urges (?) whilst staying safe...(?!?) Take another look at all this...step back, and imagine what would happen if the paedeophiles got into the education system, what would be one of the main things they'd target? Hmmmmm...well, it could be bringing in a Sex Educatio Programme that continues to drip, drip, drip, the feeling onto children that sex when you are *very* young happens, that it's acceptable, that *everyone* does it young, because it's oh so normal and that it's great fun and terribly safe, because you just use 'this' or 'that' and then...you can do *whatever* you want! What you don't preach too much is waiting, saying no, that very young bodies aren't ready or meant to have sex at such an early age, that nature instilled a natural "Oh, Yeuck!" into kids, once upon a time... nor do you preach about love, waiting for the right person..etc. I'm not saying that some kids start getting interested earlier than others, but once..that was the unusual, now, it's become entirely normal and adults OK it. But heck, if you all think it's OK and that what's going on is all fine and dandy, then there's point in me saying anything else...apart from God help our children. I guess soon we'll have the Teletubbies showing toddlers how to have safe sex! Yeesh! And you don't think it's important, Dick??????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,Chalkie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:49 AM It's a shame and a disgrace the behaviour of this age group. I see it all too often here were I live. Parents seem to have allowed public decency and respect to go out with the trash. The dress sense of some of them is like wearing a sign saying available, half them need a good stout belt wrapped around their ankles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: The Sandman Date: 27 Feb 09 - 05:13 AM yet in some cultures,for example, Africa ,young girls get married at 13. do you believe ,that our western values should be imposed on them,or should we accept those African values,in the west ., or should we accept the Taliban values,and chop off their hands for these sexual acts . perhaps its the fault of the nature of our society,which is geared towards consumerism,and which treats children as consumers ,treats them as a market to be exploited, and encourages children to mimic the behaviour of adults.,well, you will have to change society first ,before you can stop this kind of thing happening . some Muslims and Hindus are critical of western values , perhaps they are right, however lookin backwards with rose tinted spectacles is not the answer,I can remember ,in the 1960s,underage sex taking place,I wouldnt be surprised if it hasnt taken place for hundreds of years . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 09 - 05:19 AM No, Chalkie....what IS a shame and a disgrace is that WE, the adults, have not taken on the fashion industry, the media industry, the music industry, the sex education 'industry' and *demanded* that they back off our children! What is sooooo wrong is that WE, the adults, the very ones who should be protecting our children have allowed it to happen. Yes, so many girls now dress like hookers, but they've been raised by parents who brought them Bratz Dolls and let them watch Paris Hilton and the Spice Girls...(and just soooo don't get me going on the Spice Girls) ;0) The adults have walked away, and if you're surprised that in doing so, their kids are now out of control, lost in a world where they believe sex is all, not love, just sex..and flaunting your body is normal, in the most provocative way from as early an age as you can, then you're NOT opening your eyes as to the reasons behind it all. Check how many magazines that kids read are owned by pornographers. Check out what's being talked about in the 'teen' magazines, aimed at 10 years and up. Check out the relatively new 'teen sections' in the book stores and your local libraries. Look inside....learn...go into the world where the children live..check out a few Myspace pages, (most are all the same), see the constant partying, the booze, the drunkeness that has become almost 'compulsory'...there is very little else on the pages of young people, not because they don't think, but because they're afraid to step out and let others see they do. They have become trapped in a dumbed down, alcohol driven, sex saturated world.... What the hell are they going to teach *their* children...? WE are the adults, not them. WE are the ones who should be out there complaining, ringing up, asking questions, demanding answers..(I do and so do a few others on here)..but we ALL need to do it, we all need to go back to being our children's protectors, rather than telling them *everything* that can possibly go wrong, or may happen to them, thus absolving us of any responsibility, so we can get on with our lives. Our children ARE our lives....and that is what so many have forgotten. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:28 AM "yet in some cultures,for example, Africa ,young girls get married at 13. do you believe ,that our western values should be imposed on them,or should we accept those African values,in the west .," Having been a 13 year old girl myself, I think it's wrong. I also think it's wrong to sexually mutilate young African women. "I can remember ,in the 1960s,underage sex taking place,I wouldnt be surprised if it hasnt taken place for hundreds of years . " I mentioned that above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM The Captain's correct - underage sex did take place in the 60's, BUT not on the scale it appears to do nowadays. We had absolutely NO sex-education in school WHATSOEVER. The S-word was unmentionable, taboo. But I knew of only one girl who got pregnant. So is sex-education the answer or part of the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: jacqui.c Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:48 AM My kids got their sex education at home, from me, very early on. It started when my nearly three year old wanted to know how the new baby got into Mummy's tummy so I explained it to him. The rest of it came naturally over the next few years, particularly since we lived in a flat and they would play out on the local green with their friends. T make sure that they were aware of the need to avoid strangers I explained what a paedophile was and what he might do to my son or daughter. By the time they were ten both kids were well aware of the sexual side of life. Both abstained from sexual activity until they were in their late teens, my daughter telling me off when I mentioned birth control when she, as a sixteen year old, had her first steady boyfriend. SHE told ME that she did not consider that she was old enough for sex and would wait until she was 18. Conversely, my mother found it too embarrassing to even give me full information on menstruation, which left me in for a nice surprise. I picked up some sexual info from the kids at school, but not enough to really help, was sexually active at 13 and pregnant at 17. Now, I can only speak from my own experience, but I do think that children need their parents to BE parents and to take on those responsibilities rather than leaving them to schools. I also think that a loving home will give more protection to a child from the sexual mores of the day than will any half baked theory of when or if a child should be taught about sex in schools. Unfortunately there is no test to be passed before we are allowed to become parents and so you will always have children being born into feckless or self-centered families who have no real idea of how, or no inclination, to make sure that their children are safe. I agree that big business has played a part in the sexualisation of young children. Parents have also allowed that to happen. They generally hold the purse strings and if they refused to buy the crap that is pushed at children the manufacturers would stop making it. That goes back to how far parents are prepared to BE parents, rather than this 'chum' to their children, or who just let the kids have what they want to keep the peace. Peer pressure is there - kids feel left out if they don't have all the fashionable stuff that others have, but that is where parents again should be coming in and bolstering the self esteem of their children, trying to help them see that it is alright not to go along with the mass. I can understand the sense in giving children details of places to go when the need is there. Otherwise, where do these kids get their information when they have no-one to confide in and no idea that there might be places that can help them. If that scheme had bee in place in my day maybe my life would have taken a different path. I am happy with where I am and love my kids dearly, but life was a struggle for a long time and, with help and support, might have been totally different. Teenage mothers have always been there - mostly they were 'swept under the carpet' to avoid the scandal. Nowadays the tabloids love to play up this kind of thing as it sells papers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM Thanks jacqui, you have put very eloquently the direction my thinking was going. My wife (who is not an aging hippie like me, but a very modern 33-year-old) takes the same view, and believes also that the liberalisation of peoples' attitudes to under-age and schoolgirl pregnancy - the removal of the stigma which used to attach to 'that kind of girl' - has gone a long way towards the huge rise in such pregnancies. We knew, as teenagers in the late 50's and 60's, that shagging produced babies - we didn't need teachers to tell us about that. And condoms (or 'Johnnies' - the word condom hadn't been invented for the squeamish at that time!) were very difficult to come by (pun intended!), no supermarkets stocking them on the shelves, it was a case of having the courage to ask the barber for some. We also knew that if a girl got pregnant, all hell would break loose and we'd be in for a very tough time indeed - no hand-outs, no pats on the head and "there, there, it's not your fault", no council-houses paid for by the tax-payer - just crap heaped on you from a very great height. Yet there were far fewer teenage pregnacies. Food for thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:13 AM And back then, I could spel 'pregnancies'. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM Brilliant post, jacqui. I agree with so very much in there. My kids too learnt from me, first. I was left with the dilemma of not actually wanting my daughter to see the school video, as I found it disturbing, but I knew that all the other kids would see it and stories would abound in the playground, so I watched it with her, quietly, at home, and put some humour into it, as well as love...She still squirmed, and I silently fumed, feeling that I was being made to do this against my will, but at least she knew what was coming the next day. She found it all deeply intrusive, particularly having boys there, when all the personal details of women's bodies were being discussed, and the boys too looked deeply uncomfortable when their bodies were discussed. The sexual behaviour and the things that now go on, get said and done at school disturb me greatly, and I'm talking about what the kids say to one another, how they behave towards one another. My young lad was out of school by 7, so he never had to endure it all, and has grown up to be relaxed and calm. I think it freaks many kids out to be honest, particularly the way it is an on-going 'process' for so many years...I'd use the word 'indoctrinisation' but I know many won't agree with me. And yes, Pester Power, another thing brought in by the Corporate B*stards, has a great deal to answer for, as have parents who give in to it all the time. The sad thing is that nothing means anything to the children. They get what they want, when they want it, then, within days or weeks they're bored with it and trying to keep up with the next 'new' thing that everyone else has. Very sad. There's no excitement of longing for something, saving up, hoping at birthdays and Christmas...It's just there, all the time, same as 'sex' is, just another 'thing' to have when you want it, instant gratification, with absolutely no magic or meaning. And yes, Backwoodsman... "We had absolutely NO sex-education in school WHATSOEVER. The S-word was unmentionable, taboo. But I knew of only one girl who got pregnant. So is sex-education the answer or part of the problem?" ...I believe very much that 'sex education' IS a huge part of the problem. There is also, as of last time I enquired, no National Curruculum for it, which means it's left entirely to the discretion of each headteacher. One headteacher in North Devon, went to prison for paedeophile offences not long ago. I rest my case. I also have this theory, which I guess many will regard as kind of weird, about the AIDS epidemic. It opened up the gates for those with 'other agendas' to start telling kids *everything* about sex, on a national scale. Sorry, but I've known too many dodgy people linked to schools to sit back and feel comfortable. One of my daughter's previous teachers also now serving time for having paedeophile details on his computer, onto which he loaded photos of the young girls in his care, thankfully *not* my child. He had a camera rigged up in his classroom, just under the shelves, where he kept many things. He'd always ask the young girls who wore skirts to reach things down for him...and "Click!" I guess he thought it was his own form of sex education. Nothing can replace kind and loving parents, at the end of the day, who have time and space for their children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:25 AM I wasn't suggesting that there's anything 'wrong' (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) with the teachers, Lizzie - just that kids are getting sex rammed down their throats (another pun intended) by schools, and that in itself lends an element of 'acceptibility' or 'decency' to situations which were completely unacceptable forty or fifty years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:52 AM My maternal grandmother never explained sex to my mother. My mother fell pregnant at eighteen because (by her own confession) she was very niave about sex and didn't really know about contraception. Like her mother before her, my mother never mentioned anything to do with sex to me either! In fact she was quite the prude really - maybe because of her own upbringing. Instead I had really good, interesting and gentle introduction to sex education as a child which was in no way disturbing to either me or my peers. Other people finding the notion of children drawing gentle pictures of mummies and daddies cuddling in bed disturbing, says more to me about their own feelings about sex being a 'taboo' matter, than anything. Of course, because I was actually there, I don't have to imagine how dreadful it might have been like. I know they were lovely lessons nd not at all weird or wrong, and the teaching of the subject matter was done with warmth, gentleness and sensitivity. Despite a complete absence of parental discussions about sex, I knew enough about sex and pregnancy from school, that by the time I reached a point where I became sexually active, I was informed enough not to fall pregnant. I'm more than glad the school system saw fit to arm me with the essential information that my parents did not discuss! Without schools sex education all I would have had would have been schoolground rumour. Not all parents want to talk about sex, and no amount of arguing that they SHOULD be doing so, will alter the fact that many DON'T and WON'T. I believe that schools have a responsibility to young people, to ENSURE that they recieve essential information in an open and healthy fashion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,Chalkie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:55 AM Well said Lizzie Cornish 1. You are so right. Sadly young girls are also aware if they have a child they qualify for a free council house. Their dream of their own place away from mum and dad and holding endless parties soon fades after they realise a string of guys are only using them. These are the parents of today who set the examples. Very few young mums today work, it pays them to sit at home. My late wife got her mum to care for our children as we both held down full time jobs. Having two kids today has become a profession. Government at fault here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: John MacKenzie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:04 AM Having children is a privilege and not a right. It is a privilege much abused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Sooz Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM There is a National Curriculum for Sex and Relationships Education but it is only statuatary at Key Stages 3 and 4. There is also a National Accreditation for teachers wishing to qualify to teach it. Unfortunately not all schools do as much as they could. One of the problems is uninformed people who think that Sex and Relationships Education is all about teaching primary age children about condoms. Another, much more worrying problem is that most young girls see sex as something that is done to them and not even something to be enjoyed. More later..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Catherine Jayne Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM Teenagers having babies have never worked so they don't know the feeling of earning their own money and the satisfaction it gives. At the moment I'm a stay at home mum but we have the income for me to do so, and the youngest 2 are only 5 months old. I fully intend on going back to work part time as soon as they are in nursery and then full time when they are all at school. Having said that I'm not a teen mum and have no intention of living on government handouts. I can understand parents being unsettled or embarrassed about talking about sex and precautions with their children, i'm not sure how I will feel about discussing the subject with mine but I would hope that I will answer their questions when they ask them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: SINSULL Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM Sex education in a Catholic high school in the 60s consisted of one hour for seniors. They showed us a film made circa 1940 with a couple holding hands, kissing at the altar and then with a baby. There was no suggestion of how the baby got there. We were supposed to think it happened if you were married, I guess. I had learned the facts of life from a friend whose liberal mother had explained the process to her - "the lady goes to the hospital and the man pees in her and the baby comes out." One college friend nearly had a nervous breakdown when someone told her she was not a virgin. Her boyfriend had convinced her that they were not having sex. The pregnancy proved otherwise. Unbelievable! I talked to my son openly about sex. He was free to come to me with questions. I remember a very odd discussion about masturbation. I have mixed emotions about sex education. I believe that too much of it is too much information and not age appropriate. I agree - why should a child be told about oral or anal sex? I don't get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM "One of the problems is uninformed people who think that Sex and Relationships Education is all about teaching primary age children about condoms" Sooz, with all due respect, the whole problem is that, in an age where sex education is readily available, on the internet, in books and given in apparently large dollops in schools, with people employed specifically for that purpose, considerably more teenage girls are getting pregnant than when there was no sex education, other than from parents and peers, at all (like when we were at school). I didn't need a teacher to teach me the simple equation that unprotected sex (or 'Bareback' as it was called - 'unprotected sex' was another expression that hadn't been invented yet!) = BABY, and I doubt you did either. Nor do I believe that the vast majority of young people need a teacher to tell them today. What they need is to be taught that it's unacceptable - like we were - by their parents and peers. No doubt we will continue our deliberations, accompanied by light-hearted banter, over a couple of non-alcoholic drinks, between Bram's sets tonight! :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,Chalkie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:49 AM No sex education in my growing up years, if two people kissed on television in our house, my dad had the set turned off ! We learned at street level. Girls were not as liberal years ago, if you "went the whole way" it was on a bus to the depot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM "I wasn't suggesting that there's anything 'wrong' (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) with the teachers, Lizzie - just that kids are getting sex rammed down their throats (another pun intended) by schools, and that in itself lends an element of 'acceptibility' or 'decency' to situations which were completely unacceptable forty or fifty years ago." Oh yes, I realised that completely, Backwoodsman, I just went off at a tangent, as ever. :0) "Other people finding the notion of children drawing gentle pictures of mummies and daddies cuddling in bed disturbing, says more to me about their own feelings about sex being a 'taboo' matter, than anything. Of course, because I was actually there, I don't have to imagine how dreadful it might have been like. I know they were lovely lessons nd not at all weird or wrong, and the teaching of the subject matter was done with warmth, gentleness and sensitivity." I'm glad you felt that way, Rosie. It's just that as an older person, whose teachers would never ever have even entertained that idea, let alone our parents, I still find it doesn't fit into my mind. Sex isn't taboo in my book, unless you're a child. By all means talk openly about it, in the warmth and safety of the home, but to introduce it into schools at an earlier and earlier age, for more and more years, disturbs me. We all just got on with it. We had a childhood, some had happy ones, some didn't, as is still the case today, but sure as heck, our minds weren't filled with sex when we were at primary school, we were far too busy reading Janet and John books, and in those days, John wasn't shagging Janet behind the bike shed, with his correctly applied condom on... Ho hum.... "Having children is a privilege and not a right. It is a privilege much abused." Absolutely, John. And I get incensed at parents who scream at their kids and who obviously don't give a tinker's cuss for them and see them as an 'intrusion' into their lifestyle, expecting everyone else to bring them up, so they can carry on as they always have done. There are far too many parents like that today. Bringing a child into the world is a huge responsibility and one we have a choice over nowadays. I'll always remember that midwife saying to us, on our 'tour' of the maternity unit, just prior to our babies being born..."Never forget ladies, you are giving birth to an adult" :0) Well, you had to see the funny side there, the "WHAAAAAAT! A 7lb er will do me just fine thank you, Mrs!"...but she was right, babies are only babies for such a short time, likewise childhood rushes past, at an ever increasing rate these days, sadly..and to miss oodles of those days is the saddest thing. We struggled for years because I chose to stay home with my kids. I bought clothes from Oxfam for them many a time, never minded, the clothes were great, and cheap..and a good wash was all they ever needed..We didn't have fancy this and that, or posh holidays..but I had my kids around me and that's what mattered. Motherhood is far more important than a career..well, it's a career in itself, but it's one that has been so terribly devalued, and the ones to have suffered have been the children. Nowadays, many have no choice *but* to return to work, in order to pay the ludicrous bills, let alone anything else. But all the things that people are told 'matter' and that you 'must have' don't matter at all. Your kids matter, and they're just as happy on a camping holiday or in a caravan, as they'd be in the poshest hotel. At least, with the tent holiday, they get to have you around far more during the rest of the year...during their childhood. Woops! Wasn't going to say anymore.. Shhhhhhh! :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: SINSULL Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM You bring up an interesting and probably non-PC point, Lizzie. Mothers did not work when I was a child unless they absolutely had to. With less supervision and time spent with loving adults (no, the day care lady does not count), children naturally experiment more and seek affection more. I wonder what the correlation is between teen pregnancy, working Moms, and parents absent emotionally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:46 AM Yup, you're not allowed to be proud to be a Mum anymore. And if you *choose* to be a full time Mum, then you're considered very odd, and almost seen as 'not doing your bit for society' when of course, the exact opposite is true. Women were sold a dream. One where they could have it all. It was sold to them by the men-hating feminists who wanted all women to believe that they were not just equal, but *better* than men, and that they could achieve all the things a man could and more. Of course we can. But NOT when there are children too, because *something* has to give, and in my opinion, that's been the children, for a couple of decades now too. I'm not frightened to stand up to feminists, and argue that they were wrong. I think many of them now realise they were anyway. It's NOT right to let your child be brought up by complete strangers. I know these days some have no other choice, because of how expensive life has become, but many do, and they choose to go back to work for all the wrong reasons. Motherhood is the most important job in the world, because we are raising the next generation...and at present, the 'generations' aren't doing at all well, mainly because someone's 'stolen' their mothers. And of course, you will never get that time back with your children. Harry Chapin's 'The Cats in the Cradle' comes to mind....in an age where so many kids seem to dislike their parents...or perhaps, not even know them.. Harry...and a song for children everywhere.. By the way, when I have to fill in forms and they say 'Occupation' I always put down 'Mother'...I was asked verbally once what my occupation was, and I told the woman concerned. "We don't have a box for Motherhood' she said, "What job do you do?" ......."I'm a mother', she looked at me squiffy. These days I work. I still put 'Mother'. :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: DMcG Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM My daughter has a wonderful row with her sociology lecturer on one occasion who insisted women could now do anything they wanted, but couldn't accept my daughter's agreement that they could, and her choice would be to be a full-time mother when she had children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: DMcG Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM Just in case that is misinterpreted, my daughter was not arguing to join the 15-year-old girl in this story; rather against the idea that the only validation of a life is the paid work you carry out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: SINSULL Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM My sister-in-law did without for years so that she could be home with her children. It is a valid choice. And financially too many women do not have the motherhood option open to them - not because they insist on having the luxuries but just to keep food on the table. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Ebbie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM Sheesh I agree, of course, with much of what has been written here: I, too, want children kept safe and nurtured; I, too, think that our culture aggressivley pushes a point of view onto our children that is disturbing at best, totally dysfunctional at worst; I, too, think that a parent - it does not have to be the mum - staying home with the children in their formative years is, generally speaking, the far better option - if there is an option; I, too, wonder where today's climate is leading the children. But. What is, is. Wringing our hands over other people's children - somehow we all raise our own children correctly - huh? is nothing new. And some of this handwringing is not only wasted effort but is factually inaccurate. The rate of teen pregnancy in America has steadily declined at least since 1990 (Check it out). Children are better informed today and far more, imo, are not miserably alone in their questions and fears. Sex education is valuable. There may be/have been "man-hating feminists" - I don't know any. "Have children is a privilege, not a right" Huh? Is this China? As long as one's body is equipped to have children, having children is a right. That said, I wouldn't be a child today in any man's world. But life goes on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Megan L Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:55 AM Easy answer unless prospective parents reach the required income range they should be sterilised now that would cut the population and reduce the risk of teenage pregnancy. *grabs coat and leaves |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Ebbie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM Megan, I'm puzzzled - if you have a coat to wear, why do you need leaves? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: SINSULL Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:03 PM Teen pregnancy in parts of the UK is way up. Wonder why? Megan - CELLAR! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Megan L Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM Hey its draughty here we need all the protection we can get but we dont have trees :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,Chalkie Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:57 PM A lot of mothers do not go back to full time employment in the UK. It simply doesn't pay them. A lot around here remain on sickness benefit and onto D.L.A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: jacqui.c Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM Too true Chalkie. I saw this when I was raising my kids on my own in the early to mid seventies. There were single mothers of teenage children, still living on welfare and I really couldn't stand the idea of that being my future. Went back to college while the kids were at school, got the O and A levels that I didn't get at school and got through teacher training. Couldn't get a job as a teacher (too many English teachers around at the time) but landed the job that I stayed in for about 25 years until I left to come to the USA. It is hard work to remake your life and, luckily for me, at the time I was able to get grants to support myself and the children while I was doing teacher training. I also worked a few evenings a week in a pub to make a little extra. I was also lucky that, at that time, I had some supportive friends who helped with childcare - I couldn't have afforded to pay anyone on the occasions that it was needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,meself Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM ""Having children is a privilege and not a right." As a matter of fact, it is a right, except in China. Until you can get the laws changed, so that the unprivileged will be subject to legal sanction ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: katlaughing Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:00 PM There may be/have been "man-hating feminists" - I don't know any. Thank you, Ebbie. Last I knew I didn't actually hate any men with the possible exception of the shrub, but I don't think I even hate him, just would like some instant karma to descend on him, very soon.:-) This is such an old,old struggle...the working mom. I was supported by the state when I had two little children and went to school for a year for my EMT certificate. When I went to work, the state paid my babysitter for the first three months; then I was on my own. Without help from family and friends I would not have made it and staying home was NOT an option. Then, a few years later, after a second marriage was over with, I was a single mom with three young ones; I had help from the state for about three months while I looked for a decent job.
Off and on, from then on, I was working because we could not make it otherwise. Then, even when Rog and I got married, I had to work. When Rog and I moved East, I told him I had to stay home with the kids for a couple of years, at least, as they and I were leaving all that we had known in our lives, family, place, etc. and we agreed they would need me at home, esp. as he travelled about 90% of the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: katlaughing Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM One correction: I was not as much of an advocate for my son, my first child, when he was in high school as I was for his sisters. I *think* I'd learned more by the time they were that old. I did advocate for him but not as ably as later on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Sooz Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:12 AM Some facts: The majority of 15 year olds are not sexually active. Most are far more responsible about sex than their parents were. Many of those who do become pregnant are following their mothers example. Many parents do not understand the need to develop "family life" so that their children can grow up in a fulfilling and nurturing environment and do not find it necessary to roam the streets from an early age. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Backwoodsman Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:27 AM Yep. It's back to the 'standards' thing isn't it? Nothing to do with schools or teachers failing kids (and IMHO they aren't), but everything to do with parents and wider society failing them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: jacqui.c Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM Spot on Sooz and Backwoodsman. In a prefect world there might be more emphasis on life skills such as parenting in the school curriculum. If we could try and get to those kids whose home lives leave a lot to be desired and show them that there is a better way to live, maybe their own children might stand more of a chance. A lot of these kids have no self esteem and, from my own experience, that wasn't helped by some of the teachers, who were downright bullies to the more vulnerable at school. There were some very good teachers who I remember with affection to this day, but I think that teachers need to be trained to notice those who are drowning and to make an effort to pull them back up. There are almost always pointers to those kids. All this of course, needs more resources than most schools have right now, with what seems to be a concentration on results, that does not allow for these kids to be noticed and helped. Something's wrong somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: TRUBRIT Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM I think Sooz is right -- the majority of young teenagers are not having sex. BUT I still claim that ALL teenagers should be taught safe sex so that if they 'choose' to have sex thy will not get pregnant. I swear to God when I first had sex I thought babies came out of your navel........ it was that bad......(remembering I am very old) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Sooz Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM Quite right - along with teaching them how to develop relationships and to understand the facts which will enable them to make appropriate choices for themselves in all aspects of their lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: TRUBRIT Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM Absolutely -- you said it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,Abby J Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:45 AM I'm definitely in agreement with those here who think that there is a place for sex education, in the context of also learning about relationships, health issues, and maybe even parenting skills. Not 'here's how to have sex - now you go and try for yourself' but 'if you are going to have sex then take these steps to keep yourself safe from disease and pregnancy'. I do believe that the predominant responsibility lies with the parents, but that for a well brought up child of caring sensitive parents, nothing that gets taught in school is likely to upset a child too much - if they are confused or distressed by anything that they are told then I'd hope that in a supportive family situation they'd be able to go and ask mum/dad/granny for more info and clarification, and would choose to do so. I think there is a parental responsibility to help your child cope with the things that they come up against in daily life and to be realistic about it. I am not convinced that a head in the sand 'but I don't want my child to encounter sex yet so nobody should be allowed to mention it to them' is going to cut it. A personal example... or confession if you like. I'm in my early 30's. Went to school in the 1980's and was shown a video and given a talk first at the age of 9 (girls only) which mainly focussed on periods, and later had a lesson or two in mixed classes at secondary school that focussed more on sex & contraception. Plus at that time there was a lot of publicity about AIDS so loads of adverts for safe sex & condoms etc. None of this was news to me! I had open, liberal parents who had discussed sex with me from a pretty early age, and I was fairly interested in the whole thing from the age of about 10 or 11 onwards. Had a boyfriend at 11 where nothing progressed beyond kissing although we did talk in very general, titillated terms about what we might be able to do when we were older. At that point I hit a growth spurt vertically but not horizontally and spent the next 4 years unable to believe that any boy would want to go near a beanpole like me, no matter how much I might want them to. Did in fact lose my virginity at 15 to a somewhat older guy in a holiday one night stand situation (and yes we used a condom, at my firm instigation, with no argument from him) which served to satisfy much of my adolescent curiosity. Frankly, the only thing that made me wait til I was 15 was lack of a willing partner. I felt grown up enough to know what I wanted and was certainly adamant that I did want sex but didn't want a baby or a disease of any sort. I suspect, looking back, that had I been the kind of girl that boys fancied I might well have been sexually active a good couple of years younger than I was. That said, I know plenty of people who just weren't interested until they hit their late teens - but who had access to all the same info from school etc that I did. My theory is simply that different people mature at different rates, and that 'age of consent = 16' (or whatever) is a bit of an arbitrary choice. The important thing surely is for all young people to be making *informed* choices. I strongly believe that no age is too young to expect to take responsibility for your own choices & actions, and that it is a parent's job (hopefully with the assistance of the education system) to nurture that from day 1. The problems seem to arise when the child isn't helped to learn how to do that. And if parents are not doing it (which sadly plenty don't seem to) then it falls to schools, and realistically they can only do so much, even when they try. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: jacqui.c Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:56 AM Well put Abby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,Abby J Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM Thanks Jacqui. A further thought. There's been a lot of talk on here about the fact that in 'earlier' times, pre-school-based-sex-education and pre-the-current-amount-of-sex-obsession-in-the-media-and-popular-youth-culture, children and young teens were often not as aware of such things as they are now and that this was a good thing. I'd fully agree that prepubescent girls in lipstick and bikinis is not something I am comfortable with and if I ever have a daughter I hope to make a stand against pester power should she want to dress that way. BUT from puberty onwards I don't think that sexual curiosity is ANYTHING new. This being a folk music site, you don't have to look very far to find old & traditional songs on the subject of young people getting experimental. At various points in the past, society and in particular the church have frowned on sex out of wedlock, stigmatised any children born that way, and made (or tried to make) people (and especially young people) believe that wanting sex is sinful, dirty & wrong. To a certain extent that probably worked in reducing the number of people who did it, but a lot of the time it just means that it happened in secret, so looking back now we might think it didn't happen when in fact we just had no record of it. Plus it undoubtedly made quite a lot of people miserable as they struggled to balance what they felt and what society wanted of them. I struggle to believe that a 13 yr old dad and 15 yr old mum have never happened before. Probably quite often. But the whole thing was more likely then to be kept hidden, not smeared all over the daily papers. I'm not saying that the world we live in today is perfect or that we shouldn't bother to try and change things for the better. But let's not kid ourselves that what we had before was perfect either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: Sleepy Rosie Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM Spot on Abby J. And on the theme of young unmarried pregnancies in folk song (thinking right now of that most telling line in Blacksmith that runs "A Blacksmith courted me, nine months and better...") let's not forget all those fantastic euphemistic 'fairy' lovers and 'changling' stories too...! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum From: GUEST,keith a Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:42 AM 200 |
