BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:23 PM

PS Lox - Ever heard of commonsense?? You and the "father" of those children in Baghdad seemed to have left it at home behind them them, in reviewing the events of the 12th july 2007

That I say as a parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:24 PM

"As a parent, they did not ring true with me"

Food and water aren't high priorities for you when you raise kids?

Maybe you need a little reality check.

I've been in a situation where money was extremely tight, and I was worried about the risks to my daughters well being as a result.

I came very close to having nothing and believe me mate, I had 2 priorities.

1. a secure home for my daughter

2. hot dinners on the table.

Everything else is an afterthought.


Suffice to say that she never knew anything about the uncertainty of our situation, and her memory consists of nothing but security, safety, a full stomach and happiness.


So don't dare to lecture me on the priorities of a parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:27 PM

PPS Lox: Applying commonsense to the events of the 12th July 2007 had I been the father of those children they would both still be alive as would, in all probability, the Reuters man who was crawling along the pavement.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:34 PM

"Ehm No I won't Lox, you check it out for yourself, because lets face it if I do it you will not believe me, you will come out with more inaccurate emotive crap."

Wriggle wriggle.


Innaccurate emotive crap?

Well you seem to be the master of inaccurate ...

... emotive?

your veins are sticking out, you've gone purple and there's steam coming out of your ears to the point that you have to resort to abuse and feeble attempts to get under my skin to shore up your useless assault.

That looks pretty emotional from where I'm sitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:37 PM

"As a parent, they did not ring true with me"

Food and water aren't high priorities for you when you raise kids?

Maybe you need a little reality check.

Now let me see Lox you live where??

Certainly nowhere where your children, or taking what you say at face value, your daughter, live is she going to be deprived of food and water - so please stop the meaningless emotive crap - It is you who need the reality check - get back to me when your daughter has completed her second degree and is doing the job she always wanted to do - I in those respects have passed the test of parenthood.

You, according to your own principles, with your daughter in a van in Baghdad on the 12th July 2007 would have suceeded in getting both you and your daughter killed. I on the other hand would have made sure all my children were safe, primarly because that is my job and my primary responsibilty as a parent - TRUE??

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:48 PM

Stop it.

You have stated that food and water are not priorities for a parent.

They are a parents first priorities.

Do you disagree?


There's no point being somewhere safe if you die there of thirst or starvation.


By the way, how do you know that the van wasn't fleeing violence somewhere else?

How do you know whether those kids had to leave their 'safe hideout' or not?

You don't.

You have no idea about me or the people in the Van.

And judging by your wildly inaccurate 'deductions' about my history and circumstances, it seems that you are no sherlock holmes.

You have been so consistently wrong that it really is time to give up.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:54 PM

"Your priorities are those of someone who has no children

FOOD is your Number 1 priority??"


I get it - your wife did the cooking and went to the shops didn't she.


You were the brave soldier stabnding guard at the garden gate.


You really have very little clue of what it means to bring up a kid.

I do it on my own - so I know what a parents priorities really are.



By the way, I'm not enjoying this. You're probably a nice guy when you're not being such a stubborn git.

I know I'm hurting you - as macho as you are - and I do not wish to do so any more.

I sincerely wish you well.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 May 10 - 08:20 PM

"And the terrorist organisation that claimed responsibility for this crime was who Fool??"

So only 'official terrorist organisations' approved by you are allowed to terrorise civilians now w*nker? And so now you claim my experience of terror in a quiet city street is not 'relevant' - well your formal 'military experiences' where you were trained to deal with death and destruction aren't 'relevant' here either - have YOU walked down your street where you lived and death and destruction suddenly assailed you? I had left the house 5 min earlier and gone back cause I had forgotten something. If I had not, i would have probably been right in the middle of it, chatting to the girl serving in the shop. And to claim that a looney jealous ex-boyfriend publicly murdering a 15 year old and spraying bullets around all over the place is NOT TERROR - you are GENUINELY insane.


You' a mindless bullying lunatic - not reading this thread anymore - goodbye f*ckw*t!

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: olddude
Date: 02 May 10 - 08:29 PM

Teribus
you do every US soldier discredit by your comments.   How about this ...

1st gulf war ... 4 special forces personnel in a spider hole deep behind lines monitoring a major transport road. How about 2 iraq kids coming into the field kicking a soccer ball into the spider hole. The special forces told to do whatever they need to so they would not be found.   All of the men saying we didn't come here to kill no kids ... the two girls went to town told everyone about Americans ... and the shit hit the fan ... probably 200 guys heavily armed against 4 .. almost of of ammo .. one shot up ... an apache came over and sprayed cannon and rocket fire on the field of bad guys or no one would be out ...

That is the US soldier I know .. NOT one that fires on a van with KIDS
HOT ZONE, yea you engage, was this a hot zone ... where you there??
I ask the question ... otherwise you don't engage even with weapons, unless ordered or fire upon. You know what the fuck you are talking about guy ...

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:36 AM

That is the US soldier I know .. NOT one that fires on a van with KIDS

Point is Olddude, up until Ethan McCord looked into the inside of the van NOBODY KNEW WHO OR WHAT WAS INSIDE THAT VAN, certainly not the crews of those helicopters. I know that the wikileaks article tried to give every impression that they DID KNOW they were firing on children, but then that was the whole purpose behind the article, to paint as black a picture as possible.

Now as you were moved to responding to what I have written perhaps you will answer the questions I specifically asked you:

1. Do you now concede that there were armed men in the group that was fired on?

2. Do you believe that the Rules Of Engagement in force on that day dictated that US Forces actually had to be fired upon before they in turn could respond?

Now Olddude, I KNOW the answers to both of those questions, I want to know if you do, because until you honestly realise exactly what the US Forces were confronted with on that day, there is little point in discussing anything about it, now try dealing with reality.

Deflecting the argument again Lox now address the point I made:

You, according to your own principles, with your daughter in a van in Baghdad on the 12th July 2007 would have suceeded in getting both you and your daughter killed. I on the other hand would have made sure all my children were safe, primarly because that is my job and my primary responsibilty as a parent - TRUE??

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:45 AM

Apologies Olddude your question:

I ask the question ... otherwise you don't engage even with weapons, unless ordered or fire upon. You know what the fuck you are talking about guy ...

Not only is your eyesight defective, your hearing must also be impaired - you don't engage even with weapons, unless ordered or fired upon Now if you are actually interested in the truth of what happened that day go back and read the transcripts, watch the video and listen to the conversation. At every point in the process the crews of Helos Hotel Two-Six and Crazy Horse One Eight inform as to what they are seeing and request permission to open fire from their Controller. All, repeat ALL, debriefings of this incident and subsequent reviews and investigations have proved that correct procedure and application of ROE in force WERE FOLLOWED to the letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: olddude
Date: 03 May 10 - 07:46 AM

teribus

your point is well taken. i will review it again closer . i would like to read the full account

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 03 May 10 - 06:04 PM

"You, according to your own principles, with your daughter in a van in Baghdad on the 12th July 2007 would have suceeded in getting both you and your daughter killed. I on the other hand would have made sure all my children were safe, primarly because that is my job and my primary responsibilty as a parent - TRUE??"


Teribus - Neither you or I can say what we would have done in the same circumstances as the driver of the Van as neither of us has any clue about what those circumstances were.

All we know is that it stopped to pick up a wounded man, who was probably screaming for help, and then as soon as that man was in the van, all the men who had helped get him on board jumped on board with him at which point the Van, which was already turning to go, tried to leave.

Everything else that you have asserted has been fantasy that has utterly disintegrated in the face of the most shallow scrutiny.

Your cruel attitude towards ALL the people in the van is based 100% on projection.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: olddude
Date: 03 May 10 - 09:44 PM

too much conflicting info on the web. the action taken still doesn't jive with my knowledge of engagement. the reason they are supposed to be so careful, you kill a civilian, you now have 10 more recruits to fight. i wasn't there but i would have lots of questions if it happened on my watch. doesn't appear legit on the surface. i wasn't there so i leave it

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 10 - 10:49 AM

""I know that the wikileaks article tried to give every impression that they DID KNOW they were firing on children, but then that was the whole purpose behind the article, to paint as black a picture as possible.""

They certainly knew they were firing on an unarmed man, too badly wounded to crawl into cover, who was being carried by two more unarmed men.

They knew that they had blown all the "armed" men to hell, including the one who was armed with a camera.

And they knew that any weapons were down on the deck, and many yards out of reach of both the journalist, and the men from the van.

There was nobody alive in sight, who constituted any threat to anyone this side of the grave, and they knew that too!

Nobody, in or out of the van, had a weapon pointed at them, five k distant, and nobody moved one pace towards the weapons which were in sight.

How could the article make them look any blacker than in fact they were, in their eagerness for another kill?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:50 PM

Plain truth pure and simple.

The crews of Helicopters Hotel Two Six and Crazy Horse One Eight did the job they were supposed to do.

At every stage of of the incident they reported what they were witnessing and on each target as it was identified they requested permission to engage, they sought clearance to fire. They did all that knowing full well that there were US ground troops in the area who had already come under attack. They did that knowing full well that their conversations and their reports were being recorded and that their gun camera footage would be reviewed during debrief after landing. They did that knowing everything they said and di would be put under a microscope and examined.

I will say it again - I would rather watch gun camera footage of insurgents and those who help them being killed than watch Reuters footage of US Forces and Iraqi Policemen being killed.

No war crime - No murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 10 - 05:47 AM

""I will say it again - I would rather watch gun camera footage of insurgents and those who help them being killed than watch Reuters footage of US Forces and Iraqi Policemen being killed.

No war crime - No murder.""

Tell us oh wise one, just which US troops and Iraqi policemen were under threat of destruction by an unarmed and wounded man, being carried by two also unarmed men, who made no attempt to reach any weapons, and were in the process of leaving the area when they were cut down by your slimy gloating hero.

Your support of that action, which also led to the "collateral" (what a weasel word that is , to justify the careless killing of innocents) shooting of two children, is sickening in the extreme.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 05 May 10 - 09:45 AM

Well there you have it ...

... Teribus has retreated to a strategy of sticking his fingers in his ears and repeating slogans.

'LA LA LA - I'm not listening'

In his case, he has closed his ears and reverted to a modified version of a point he made earlier.

"And I would far rather watch gun camera footage of these insurgents being killed, than watch Reuter's coverage of my son being killed."

He therefore confirms my comments concerning the blind spot created by his sons circumstances.

And that is basically the premiss of every argument you are going to hear from him.

It is therefore unrealistic to expect an unprejudiced analysis from him.

His opinion is better viewed as testimony, and evidence of some of the subtler consequences of these wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 10 - 04:49 PM

Lox, Don T, neither of you has ever been in any situation in your lives where people have been desperately trying to kill you have you?

Now the pair of you fuck off and ask the US soldiers on that patrol if they would have either preferred to fight through that ambush with the in-built risk of them being killed or seriously injured, or whether they would rather have had the crews of those helos do their job.

Face it and live with it:

1. The two Reuters men fucked up badly by not wearing what they should have been wearing, but what the hell they were on to some award winning story showing US troops getting theirs eh? what the hell, perfectly understandable had their gamble paid of eh?

2. The driver of the van fucked up by driving into a whole rake of trouble, that anybody with even a modicum of commonsense would never have gone anywhere near as long as their arses pointed downwards

Both part and parcel of the same ambush that was undoubtedly being set. I know you guys don't believe it but once the shit hits the fan it does become remarkably black and white, and depending upon what side you are on, the other guys ARE the bad guys along with anyone who is prepared to help them. For you to survive they all become targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Lox
Date: 05 May 10 - 05:59 PM

"Face it and live with it"

Because that's what you have to do?

No Thanks.

I'll face it and react my own way, though I recognize that it is easier for me to be non partisan as my baby hasn't been dropped in it ... yet ...

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 10 - 09:59 PM

""Both part and parcel of the same ambush that was undoubtedly being set. I know you guys don't believe it but once the shit hits the fan it does become remarkably black and white, and depending upon what side you are on, the other guys ARE the bad guys along with anyone who is prepared to help them. For you to survive they all become targets.""

Oh well, that explains it all.

It was combat, so killing off a man too badly wounded to crawl, let alone fight, is fully justified.

And please don't try to convince anyone here that he would not have been killed, even if the van had never come into the picture. That bastard's trigger finger was itching so bad, he was always going to find a reason to shoot.

If you believe what you are saying, perhaps you would like to compose a letter of apology to all those executed Germans, for what our countries did to them. After all, you heartily endorse the kind of actions for which they were tried, convicted, and hanged.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 10 - 01:12 AM

please don't try to convince anyone here that he would not have been killed, even if the van had never come into the picture.

Had he been wearing what he should have been wearing there is every possibility that left on the pavement until the troops arrived he would have reached hospital and survived.

That bastard's trigger finger was itching so bad, he was always going to find a reason to shoot.

And if he had, he would have been charged, faced a court martial and been found guilty, because during the debrief on landing it would have been established that he had opened fire and engaged a target outwith his Rules Of Engagement without permission.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 10 - 12:17 PM

U.S. soldier to be charged for leaking this video


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 10 - 01:09 PM

Pfc. Manning currently is being held in Kuwait awaiting decision on possible courtmartial for leaking the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 10 - 01:30 PM

yup ... The war machine keeps rolling on .... sad to say

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jul 10 - 10:22 AM

""And if he had, he would have been charged, faced a court martial and been found guilty,""

Yeah, Right!

The only reason there is any discussion at all is that the attempt to brush the affair under the carpet was circumvented by a pfc with a sense of right and wrong, who now faces the court martial which by rights should be trying the trigger happy killer.

But for pfc Manning, we wouldn't even know about it, so your assertions as to likely punishment don't exactly convince.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 10 - 10:39 AM

Well Don, in the military you are judged by your actions.

In the case in point:

The Helicopter Crews

1) Those debriefing the pilots and the US ground troops on patrol that day had no problem with it.

2) Within fourteen days of the incident happening Reuters saw every scrap of coverage that MNF had of the incident, they saw every transcript and read all the reports and they had no problem with it.

Hence no charges and no Court Martial

Pfc Manning

1) An Analyst with Top Secret Security Clearance

2) Copied classified material onto his own computer knowing that to be in breach of regulations

3) Passed that classified material on to a foreign national knowing that to be in breach of regulations

Hence Pfc Manning finds himself under arrest, charged and about to face Court Martial

Seems pretty fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jul 10 - 09:17 PM

""Well Don, in the military you are judged by your actions.""

You reckon?

If there were the slightest bit of truth in that, the American Military Hierarchy would, to a man, be on trial for permitting the torture and humiliation of prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and the tacit agreement to torture by proxy after extreme rendition, to name just two of many instances.

Both of those would have remained hidden, and continued unchecked, had it not been for whistle blowers with a conscience.

Wrong guy on trial mate, and you are wasting your breath trying to make out these situations are acceptable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 07 Jul 10 - 09:26 PM

If it wasn't for Hugh C. Thompson, Jr. .. the My Lai Massacre might never have been known

Hugh C. Thompson is a hero in my books.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Jul 10 - 09:28 PM

... and I have to stress he's one hell of a hero.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 09:36 AM

I would agree with you 100% on that Guest Number 6

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 09:51 AM

So Mr T agrees that the same heroic action by two separate whistle blowers should result in one in history being decorated and the other current one being shot for treason...

wibble, wibble....

Subject: RE: BS: Video of US Killing of Reuters Reporters
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 03:00 PM

If the current "whistleblower" committed treason then he should be charged and tried on that charge. I assume he took the action that he did knowing full well that what he was doing was committing an offence.

the former "whistleblower" took his complaint up via the military chain of command. Different thing entirely.

wibble, wibble indeed.