BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM

A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008).

The blockade of Gaza does not prevent rockets from getting into Israel. All it does is prevent Gazans from being able to live. As such, it is collective punishment and a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:17 AM

"ELECTRONIC INTIFADA" - definitely no bias in that webpage!

One could give the same response about websites like that of the ADL as well. (Ironic name for an organization that spends a large amount of time and resources defaming people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:28 AM

If Hamas declared today they would stop all rockets and attacks and recognize Israel's right to exist immediately, this would all end fast. Israel would in turn stop attacks and enter into peace negotiations. Economic relations would follow. Israel has no interest in fostering the kind of hostilities coming from Gaza. The will has to be there on both sides - not one side.

Although it wasn't as complete as it is now, the blockade was in effect before Hamas was elected. The Palestinians in Gaza did not have control of their borders, shoreline, or airspace after Israel withdrew from Gaza (or before, either). The Gazans were being kept as prisoners there long before Hamas was elected. It's because of this that some of them are firing rockets.

Hamas agreed to a ceasefire, and they even kept it, unilaterally, for a year. The only thing they got in return was targeted killings of their leaders (along with a lot of collaterally killed civilians). So we know from experience that there is nothing Hamas or any other Palestinians can do that will make even one little bit of difference. Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:32 AM

During the Lebanon war I wrote freguently--exchanged words--with the Israeli Foreign Ministry via e-mail. At the time I suggested that it would be good if Israel simply stopped waging war for THREE days, and if the rockets continued, then take the gloves off and hit the targets hard.

It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Interesting article from an Israeli Holocaust surviver on the subject of anti-Semitism...

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=172

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:11 AM

To Carolc
I don't know the extent or the immediacy of the danger that Iran finds itself in.

However it is clear that there are some at the highest levels in the Bush administation and in Israel who would like to launch an attack on Iran.

This would almost certainly take the form of an air attack and would be targetted at the nuclear facilities which Iran says are for civilian use.

I don't think America has the stomach or capacity for another ground war in the Middle East after the debacle it is involved with in Iraq.

It is a sort of awful joke that the USA with its thousands of nuclear missiles and bombs and Israel with its hundred plus bombs [thank you Jimmy Carter for reminding us about those ], can complain about another country developing nuclear facilities even though Iran has stated time and time again it is not developing nuclear weapons but only civilian nuclear technology.

Iran has had the nuclear inspectors in several times to check out their facilities and these inspectors cannot find evidence of nuclear weapons although this morning the Guardian reported that the pressure from America remains .

It is worth noting that Israel will not allow nuclear inspectors into its Negev nuclear facility and will still not allow Morechai Vanunu to leave the country although he has not be inside a nuclear facility for over 20 years.

What does this have to do with the thread? Israel is one of the most militarised countries in the world.It has one of the world's most powerful military forces which have been unleashed without a qualm against civilians time and time again.Only two years ago Israeli warplanes raced of the Syrian president's palace as a reminder of what he can expect if Syria does not behave itself.
A few months ago Israeli war planes attacked a Syrian military facility in the north of the country.

The Israeli military machine is currently strangling Gaza and could launch further attacks at any time.Meanwhile back in Iraq the US has turned parts of Baghdad into a free fire zone.

These are not the actions of rational countries.These are the actions of violent racist governments who pay little or no heed to the well being of Palestinian or Iraqi people. Would Bush think any differently about the Iranians ...I doubt it.

Bush could still launch an attack before November in the hope of playing the patriotic card and scuppering the democrats for their lack of machismo and loyalty to the flag.And there would be voices in Israel urging him to do so.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:24 AM

I wasn't disagreeing with you, David. The italicized parts of my post were quotes from other people. In the part that I think you are responding to, it was a quote from Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:21 AM

The difference between nukes in Iran and nukes in Israel is this: Iranians are jihadists who believe in martyrdom to achieve their goals. Suicide, murder, the death even of Muslims is good as long as it furthers this agenda. To have a nuke to use is a jihadist's dream.
Nukes in Israel - are a last strike resort and deterrence. ( If they wern't, they could have used them by now . There have been instances in Jewish history where Jews have committed suicide instead of being killed or forced into conversion, but generally Jews do not believe in suicide and martyrdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:34 AM

Of course CaroleC!!]
DAVID

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:46 AM

Jihad

The Iranian Mullahs are more interested in preserving and maintaining their power than they are in Jihad. They are not stupid. They know that they will not be able to retain power if their country ceases to exist. And they know that their country will cease to exist if they attempt to attack another country with nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:47 AM

Whoa there Arnie,
Remember Iran has never attacked a single country that I am aware of.Its war against Iraq was launched by Iraq with some help from the USA.

I am certainly not advocating a nuclear armed Iran ...that would be another nail in the coffin for the peoples of the Middle East.
But Iran is surrounded by hostile nuclear states.
Israel to the west which will not even acknowledge it has nuclear missiles pointed at Iran.

There is a American nuclear armed fleet just a few miles off shore in the Gulf [imagine an Iranian nuclear fleet in the Gulf of Mexico!] and there is also an unstable nuclear Pakistan to the east.

I dont believe in any of this guff about any one particular nationality or religion being prone to suicide or martyrdom. That smacks of a kind of euocentric orientalism of the kind Edward Said wrote about which is essentially a form of racism.

What about a nuclear free Middle East or would that be to much to ask of both the USA and Israel?
David

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:20 AM

Iran makes it's jihad by supplying weapons to Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban and to insurgents in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:31 AM

David & Carole - it's a crazy world. Hard to believe governments can do stupid things that can kill a lot of people. - They do- all the time throughout history.
Nuclear arms should be abolished by all.
"I don't believe in any of this guff about any one particular nationality or religion being prone to suicide or martyrdom." - Suicide bombers call themselves martyrs all the time, and are celebrated by their families- it's no guff.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:15 PM

CarolC

"It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah. "


False statement. Please check your facts.

Just because you want it to be true does not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:18 PM

We supply weapons to terrorist, too, even ones that are committing terrorist attacks on our allies, like Turkey. I don't think we're in a position to nuke or even attack another country for doing something that we do ourselves.


Re: Hezbollah rockets and Israeli bombing...I know the facts on that one. I remember the news reports at the time, too. I remember they reported bombing by Israel before they reported the rockets from Hezbollah.

But here's some documentation to back that up...


Hezbollah, under the leadership of Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, enters Israel and captures two Israeli soldiers on July 12. In response, Israel launches a major military attack, bombing the Lebanese airport and parts of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah retaliates by launching hundreds of rockets and missles—believed to have been supplied by Syria and Iran—into Israel.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/lebanontime1.html

2006 July - Israel launches air and sea attacks on targets in Lebanon after Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group captures two Israeli soldiers. Civilian casualties are high and the damage to civilian infrastructure wide-ranging. Thousands of people are displaced. In August Israeli ground troops thrust into southern Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/819200.stm

July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/index.html

July 12:

» Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers and kills eight.

» Israel launches air strikes and sends ground troops into Lebanon for the first time since its 2000 pullout.

-AFP

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/July_War06.asp


JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday.

Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid -- and charged it with the soldiers' safe release -- and the Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Cabinet met to discuss a response.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:25 PM

By the way, right from the start (after they captured the soldiers), Hezbollah was saying "lets negotiate". They didn't want a war. They only wanted a prisoner exchange. The news reportage on the 12th bears this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar%27it-Shtula_incident

Zar'it-Shtula incident
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Date July 12, 2006
Location Lebanon-Israel border
Result Beginning of 2006 Lebanon War.

Belligerents
Israel Hezbollah
Casualties and losses
8 killed,
2 captured

The Zar'it-Shtula incident was a cross-border attack committed by Lebanon-based Hezbollah special forces on an Israeli military patrol on 12 July 2006 on Israeli territory. The operation was originally named "Freedom for Samir Al-Quntar and his brothers" by Hezbollah, but it was shortened to "Operation Truthful Promise".[1] Using rockets fired on several Israeli towns as a diversion, Hezbollah militants crossed from Lebanon into Israel [2] and ambushed two Israeli Army vehicles, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two. Hezbollah demanded the release of Lebanese prisoners held by Israel in exchange for the release of the abducted soldiers. Israel refused and launched a large-scale military campaign across Lebanon in response to the Hezbollah incursion. This marked the start of the 2006 Lebanon War.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Not only did they start the war by using the rockets ( while kidnapping the Israeli soldiers that YOU say were kidnapped BEFORE the IOsraeli bombings) but they also had been using the rockets previously, in bombarding civilian areas of Israel.



"The 2006 Lebanon War was a 34-day military conflict in Lebanon and northern Israel. The principal parties were Hezbollah paramilitary forces and the Israeli military. The conflict started on July 12, 2006, and continued until a United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on August 14, 2006. Hezbollah was responsible for thousands of Katyusha rocket attacks against Israeli civilian towns and cities in northern Israel,[86] in which Hezbollah said those attacks were retaliation for Israel's killing of civilians and targeting the Lebanese infrastructure.[105]


The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence, killing three, injuring two, and seizing two Israeli soldiers.[106"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:05 PM

"You have to understand where this conflict started. As Labors foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd said, Hamas and Hezbollah, the two terrorist organisations, launched rocket attacks on Israeli territory. Furthermore, Hamas and Hezbollah engaged in violations of Israeli territory, capturing and killing Israeli armed force members.

The current conflict began with the Iranian supplied missiles targeting only civilians in Israeli towns and cities. The Israelis enjoy a de   facto peace with the government of Lebanon and formal peace with Jordan and Egypt.

"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:07 PM

We have been told here that Hezbollah committed an act of war, but it wasn't really an act of war...it was a negotiating ploy. Pardon me if I find that logic more way more than a little flawed. I don't believe that Hezbollah gets to set the rules as to how the Israel responds to that kidnapping and shelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Hezbollah kept firing rockets continuously in the past six years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. ( from a conversation in Aug. 2006)


So your claim is blatently false, as the act YOU have said started the war included rocket attacks on Iraeli civilians, BEFORE any Isralei bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:16 PM

Hi CarolC:

""Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country." - Guest David.

"Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?" - Teribus

Clearly stated that the only way that the US is going to obliterate Iran is if Iran attacks Israel with nuclear weapons - I can think of no logical reason why HRC would lie about that, so what she said has to be taken at face value.

According to Guest David Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country (Not strictly true by the way). I know that no-one in their right mind believes that the current Iranian nuclear programme is purely peaceful (Russia and IAEA included) but as we took what HRC said at face value we should similarly take what Guest David has said at face value.

So hilarious as CarolC finds it logic would tend to suggest that if Iran does not have nuclear weapons then they can hardly attack Israel with weapons it doesn't have. So as there can be no Iranian nuclear attack on Israel, there can be no obliteration of Iran by the US.

I must admit I am absolutely dying to see how the UN wriggles as the President of the IAEA explains away Iran's first nuclear weapon test. That'll surely put an end to the Nuclear NPT and then won't the world be that much safer, it'll scare the hell out of Russia and China for certain and if you believe oil is expensive now, just wait, you'll find that you've never been born.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:34 PM

"The blockade of Gaza does not prevent rockets from getting into Israel. All it does is prevent Gazans from being able to live. As such, it is collective punishment and a war crime." - CarolC, 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM.

Bloody hilarious that CarolC, you have a very interesting take on things, you entirely miss the point that not only does the blockade fail to prevent rockets getting into Israel. The "blockade" also seems to fail in preventing the rockets, or components to make them, being delivered to Gaza. But somehow Hamas cannot get in food or medical supplies? Bloody strange that isn't it, particularly if you were under the rather misinformed impression that Hamas actually gives a flying f**k about the Palestinians living in Gaza.

War crimes eh CarolC? You and Guest David and guest Albert seem awfully concerned about war crimes. Is that sort of selective or does it apply across the board?

How about these war crimes:

- Indiscriminate targeting of civilians and civilian centres of population as practiced by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Gaza, and by Hezbollah from South Lebanon.

- Embedding combat formations and heavy weapons in civilian areas, thereby using that civilian population as a "human shields".

Now according to Guest Albert such things do not happen, according to his accounts of events Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah have never fired a rocket into Israel in their entire existence.

Guest Albert I don't know if you actually opened up that picture link I sent of the town of Wesel, but that was the result of intensive bombing and shelling over a period of three days - You are trying to tell us that Gaza has been subjected to intensive bombing and shelling for over a year? You're havin' a bath aren't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Hezbollah kept firing rockets continuously in the past six years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. (Beardedbruce)

I think you confuse Hezbollah and Palestinian rocket attacks:

Hezbollah Attacks Since May 2000

Hezbollah is responsible for several attacks between 2000 and 2006, but a "continuous" firing of rockets is not among what they did.

Nevertheless, the correction to Carol's misinformation stands: The firing of rockets came before the bombing by Israel.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:54 PM

"So we know from experience that there is nothing Hamas or any other Palestinians can do that will make even one little bit of difference."

Nothing? How positive - you'd make a great politician with powerful ideas.

"Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza"

What? Who said that? Probably just that super correct and balanced unbiased information in the Indifada website - I assume.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:13 PM

Hey CarolC,

Here's the Hezbollah attack on Israel on 12th July 2006:

12 Jul 2006        3 soldiers killed, 2 others kidnapped by Hezbollah terrorists crossing the border from Lebanon; among ground forces pursuing the terrorists across the border, 4 were killed in the bombing of a tank and 1 was killed during recovery following the bombing of the tank.

And here's the diversionary rocket attack that the raid was mounted under:

12 Jul 2006        Hezbollah rockets (120) fired from southern Lebanon into northern Israel, striking Shlomi and Shebaa Farms.

On the same day 16 Kassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Southern Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:33 PM

The US claimed that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program that it didn't have and the US then went in and destroyed that country. Oops. It didn't have nuclear weapons. Had Iraq had any nuclear weapons, the US would not have attacked it.

On the subject of the Gaza blockade, yes, people are not able to get their basic survival needs met, and yet somehow the people firing rockets are able to get the components for those rockets. That shows that the blockade does not accomplish the purpose that it is ostensibly meant to accomplish (keeping the rockets from being fired from Gaza). However, some members of the Israeli government have said that the purpose of the blockade is to coerce the people in Gaza into getting rid of Hamas. That seems more like the real reason for the blockade, and that is collective punishment (and a war crime).

Members of the Israeli government said the same thing about Israel's bombing campaign against Lebanon in the early days of it. They were saying that it was supposed to convince the people of southern Lebanon to kick Hezbolla out. That makes Israel's bombing campaign on Lebanon a war crime as well.

I have seen conflicting reports of the location of the first attack when the Israeli soldiers were taken. I have seen reports that It was in Israeli territory, and I have seen reports that the Israelis were in Lebanese territory when they were taken. I have also seen conflicting reports about whether or not there were diversionary rocket attacks at the time that the soldiers were taken. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that one right now. But it is true that Israel had been committing raids, kidnappings, military overflights and other violations of Lebanese territory since it withdrew from its occupation of Lebanon. Israel has many hundreds of Lebanese people whom it has kidnapped, and is holding without any charges made against them, and no trails or convictions. Hundreds of these people are women and children.

Israel thinks it can justify bombing a whole country back into the stone age for a very small handful of soldiers, but if people in Lebanon take three soldiers in order to try to get back those hundreds of people, they are the bad guys. I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:35 PM

I stand corrected, Wolfgang.


From your posting, I get the following rocket attacks prior to the Israeli bombings:



12 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah terrorists infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked two IDF armored jeeps patrolling the border with Lebanon, killing three soldiers and kidnapping two. Ground forces entered Lebanon in the area of the attack. A large explosive device was detonated underneath an Israeli tank, killing all four of the tank crew. An eighth soldier was killed when IDF troops entered Lebanon to try to retrieve the bodies of the tank crew. Throughout the day, Hezbollah terror organization fired Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israel's northern borders' communities and IDF posts.


27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

29 Jun 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hezbollah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

24 Apr 2005 - Several explosive devices exploded near the Lebanese-Israeli border, in the Mount Dov area. Officials believe the devices were planted by Hezbollah, but this was not confirmed. No injuries were reported in the explosions.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli-Arabs from the village of Rajar near the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives and held in captivity for four days. The men, identified as Muki Ben-Jamal and Nuef Maharj Ben-Ali, said they were interrogated by their captors who wanted information on Israel. They were later released. Israeli officials did not believe that any security information had been compromised.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 Jul 2004 - Hezbollah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari't. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hezbollah fired at an IDF force south of the =46atma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hezbollah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hezbollah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hezbollah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

5 May 2003 - A cycle of armed exchanges across the Blue Line began. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over the country. Subsequently, Hezbollah fired several anti-aircraft rounds with shrapnel landing inside Israel.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:40 PM

I don't get my information from the Electronic Intifada for precisely the reason that has been illustrated here. The common attitude around here that "if it comes from Palestinians, it can't be true". So I get my information from other sources whenever possible. Most of the time I try to get it from Israeli Jews. However, I wonder how long it would take someone to cry, "anti-Semitism!" if anyone ever tried to suggest that "if it comes from Jews (or Israelis) it can't be true".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:49 PM

CarolC

But MY statement still stands:

YOUR statement

"It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah. "

is false and demonstratably not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:50 PM

And YOU are the one claiming that Moslem sources are liars, whenever we point out anything they say that you do not want them to have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:56 PM

hmmm, just wondering if anyone here has actually been to this area ... or maybe knows someone from there personally.... from either side of the fence....

just curious

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:57 PM

I'm not convinced yet that what I said isn't true. I need to do some more looking around before I accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:00 PM

"Most of the time I try to get it from Israeli Jews"
Show me where you got or who said "Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:01 PM

Fair enough, CarolC.

I'm not convinced yet that what you say is ever true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:32 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/07/1086460241534.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:06 PM

I don't accept for one moment that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.It is widely seen across Lebanon as a resistance force to the many Israeli attacks on that country.And of course it was very effective in fighting off the Iraeli military machine in 2006.

I would also point out that Israel still occupies Lebanese land at the disputed Shaba farms. This is an area of land claimed by Lebanon.
Israel has imprisoned many Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners for years often in illegal conditions.It also maintained a degrading prison at a place called [I think Khiam ] which was a byword for torture.This was run by Israeli allies but essentially at the behest of Israel itself. And has CaroleC has correctly pointed out it has continued to attack Lebanon in all kinds of ways.

For many years Israel has been slaughtering its way across the Middles East....shelling refugee camps, destroying Beirut several times, blowing up civilian apartment blocks, strafing fleeing car convoys of civilians and stealing land constantly from the Palestinian people.
Perhaps the Zionists on Mudcat have a different description for this but I think terrorism fits well. State terrorism.
Its doing it now in Gaza where it is waging war on around a million people most of whom are children or teenagers.
ALBERT

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:35 PM

Here's some info - from BBC.
By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News Online

In its early days, Hezbollah was close to a contingent of some 2000 Iranian Revolutionary guards, based in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, which had been sent to Lebanon in 1982 to aid the resistance against Israel.
As Hezbollah escalated its guerrilla attacks on Israeli targets in southern Lebanon, its military aid from Iran increased.

The movement also adopted the tactic of taking Western hostages, through a number of freelance hostage taking cells: The Revolutionary Justice Organisation and the Organisation of the Oppressed Earth, which seized Terry Waite.

For many years, Hezbollah was synonymous with terror, suicide bombings and kidnappings. In 1983, militants who went on to join Hezbollah ranks carried out a suicide bombing attack that killed 241 US marines in Beirut.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese
        
Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.

In May 2000 - due partly to the success of the party's military arm - one of its main aims was achieved. Israel's battered and bruised army was forced to end its two-decade occupation of the south.
Hezbollah now serves as an inspiration to Palestinian factions fighting to liberate occupied territory.

Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.

Terror

Hezbollah's political rhetoric has centred on calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its definition of Israeli occupation has also encompassed the idea that the whole of Palestine is occupied Muslim land and it has argued that Israel has no right to exist.

Hezbollah's spiritual head Sheikh Fadlallah is close to Iran

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.


The party has operated with neighbouring Syria's blessing - with the guerrilla war against being a card for Damascus to play in its own confrontation with Israel over the occupation of the Golan Heights.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese.

Hezbollah proved to be a formidable fighting force
It was passionate, demanding of its members and devoted to furthering an Islamic way of life.

In the early days, its leaders imposed strict codes of Islamic behaviour on towns and villages in the south - a move that was not universally popular with the region's citizens.

But, despite the early history of coercion, the party emphasises that its Islamic vision should not be interpreted as an intention to impose an Islamic society on the Lebanese.

In recent years, Hezbollah has won considerable backing within Lebanon. Its social services programme was popular with the Shia community.

The group's successful hit-and-run guerrilla war on Israel's much-vaunted army assured it some support and a lot or respect from other religious communities.

While, the US listed the group as a terrorist organisation, the government in Beirut declared it a national resistance movement.

Subject: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:50 PM

I was talking with a member of the Palestinian Observer mission to the UN the other day about a product I sell. I mentioned my discomfort about dealing with Hamas because I am Jewish. He pulled me up sharp [appropriately so] and said that the products will be used to benefit ALL of the Palestinian people, not just those on the West Bank.

The point is, if you treat a group as a unity, there is a chance they will all grow. If they become better educated and more generally prosperous, not just oil rich, there is a chance that all of the people in the region will get along.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:08 PM

EBarnacle - Palestinians are among the most educated and entrepreneurial of all the Arabs, those that had the gumption to leave the camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:00 PM

NOt knowing the product I do have to say that---just like here in the U S we should not lump people into a uniform group. Jews do not, for the most part, vote as a bloc and neither do women, African Americans, etc; Which means, to me, that Palestinians, as well are not a monolithic group.

As to the "oil rich" Arab nations---it is the leaders that enjoy the wealth and cater to the wealthy of all nations and damned be anyone else as they subjugate the poor who labor for them---from all nations.You just have to love the heartfelt belief in their religion---in their interpretation.

Many years ago I was on an airliner seated next to a person from one of the Emirates. He ordered a drink and I asked how that was since I thought alcohol was not allowed---her replied--we just go to the next country that does allow it--religion is for the masses in our part of the world.

We both had a drink and I toasted hypocrisy (silently).

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:21 PM

"It is worth noting that Israel will not allow nuclear inspectors into its Negev nuclear facility and will still not allow Morechai Vanunu to leave the country although he has not be inside a nuclear facility for over 20 years."

That conflates two things and the result is something that makes little sense. The Israelis are not keeping him because he was in a nuclear facility 20 years ago. Hell, if he had info to pass along to whoever, it would have been passed by now. Also, there is no reason FOR Israelis to allow nuclear inspectors into their facilities, imo.

Tell me, does Hezbollah allow inspections of its facilities?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:32 PM

Well we all know that Israel is officially mum on their nuclear program, neither confirming nor denying...wink, wink.

Whether or not Vanunu has more information which can be used, Israel isn't taking chances with that traitor. IMNSHO he probably should be sleeping with the Rosenbergs, but no death penalty in Israel.

But what I really wonder is if Carter, in announcing the number of Nukes that various countries, including Israel, have comes from classified information he received as president (and which he was sworn to protect). I find that very, very problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:45 PM

My point is exactly that. I was wrong to lump the Gazans as "Hamas=Enemy" and not allow for the fact that, even there, not everyone is an enemy. I hope that I can get involved with a few of those entrepreneurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:22 AM

Hezbollah was formed in response to Israel's occupation of Lebanon. It's purpose was to liberate Lebanon from that occupation. It succeeded in doing that (with the exception of Sheba farms).

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:24 AM

That what THEY say!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:47 AM

BTW, Hezbollah came from the Lebanese Civil War in the early 1980s (?). Why the hell you blame Israel for THAT is beyond me. Obviously beyond you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:13 AM

That the same Sheeba Farms that were claimed and previously occupied by Syria CarolC?

French maps of the area from 1933 and 1945 show the land to be Syrian. Israel captured the land from Syria in 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:25 AM

I see in the papers today that the leader of Israel Olmert has been accused of taking cash bribes from an American businessman who is now testifying against him.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:19 AM

Amnesty Human Rights Report Slams Israel

An Amnesty International report on Human Rights across the world has slammed Israel for harming Palestinians,expoiting foreign workers and undermining human rights.

It says ,according to the Israeli news paper Haaretz that many innocent Palestinians civilians are languishing in Israeli prisons some without any trial.

In Gaza the report goes on to say that Israel has conducted operations which amount to collective punishment with fuel,food and water cut off as the siege tightens.

In addition Palestinian Gazans requiing urgent medical treatment outside the city have been refused permission to leave resulting in many of them dying.
source
Haaretz .com

Albert