BS: How important is the truth?

Subject: BS: How important is the truth?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:28 PM

MIT dean resigns for misrepresenting credentials
POSTED: 2:02 p.m. EDT, April 26, 2007

(AP) -- The Massachusetts Institute of Technology said Thursday that admissions dean Marilee Jones -- a crusader for reducing the anxiety around college admissions -- has resigned for misrepresenting her academic credentials to the university.

Jones, dean since 1997, has been a highly visible campaigner for reforming the college admissions process. She issued a statement saying she had misrepresented her credentials when she first came to work at MIT 28 years ago and "did not have the courage to correct my resume when I applied for my current job or at any time since.

"I am deeply sorry for this and for disappointing so many in the MIT community and beyond who supported me, believed in me, and who have given me extraordinary opportunities," she said.

MIT spokeswoman Patti Richards said Jones has at various times claimed to have degrees from Union College, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the Albany Medical College, but Richards had no immediate information on what degrees Jones actually has or how the matter was uncovered.

Dean of Undergraduate Education Daniel Hastings announced Jones' resignation in an e-mail to MIT.

"This is a sad and unfortunate event," he said. "But the integrity of the Institute is our highest priority, and we cannot tolerate this kind of behavior."

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:46 PM

I always find it interesting when someone apparently does a competent or even exemplary job in a professional position for many years, and then is sacked when it is discovered that they faked their c.v. Another question that comes to mind is, "How important to job performance are official qualifications?"

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:04 PM

I don't think that qualifications are always the most important thing but people do need to be seen to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: skipy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

eanjay, spot on!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

I'm not quite sure what the question is here, BB. In answer to "How important is the truth?" I would say that truth is of paramount importance. One should always seek the truth in any matter.

But in the instance you cite, the dean apparently did something dishonest (falsified her resumé to get the job), and depending on the standards of the institution, that could very well be a firing offense. In other cases, perhaps not. For example, an acquaintance of mine falsified her resumé to get a job that she both wanted and needed. Had she not, she wouldn't have got the job. It turned out that she was more than competent, her employer was very pleased with her work, and the matter never came up. In this case, does the end justify the means? On the other hand, if someone hires on to drive a school bus, claims he has a drivers' license which he doesn't, then proceeds to drive a bus-load of children off a bridge, then it matters very much.

Dodging the truth from time to time tends to grease the wheels of society and preserve domestic tranquility, i.e., "What a lovely party, Myrtle. Thank you for inviting me." [Inwardly: "What a boring evening. Never again!"] or "No, Abigail, that skirt doesn't make your butt look big." [Inwardly: "Don't blame the skirt, Abigail; your butt makes your butt look big!"].

In the search for scientific truth, it goes without saying that truth is of primary importance. The same in politics. In a democratic republic such as the United States purports to be, keeping the populace—the electorate—informed is essential to the health of the "body politic" and the populace a whole, and sometimes, the world at large. But as we know, politics is an area in which the truth is a rare commodity.

I hate to make a brief for moral relativism, but I'm afraid that the importance of the absolute truth depends a lot on the situation.

Difficult question. Philosophers have been wrestling with this one for millennia.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:24 PM

Don

The points you brin up arre the ones I would like to see discussed. I read this, and was split- She obviously was doing a good job, yet should be (and was) held responsible for the decision to falsify ( something in) her resume that got her fired. After making the fist mistake, how COULD she have corrected it without losing her job? One mistake, and 28 years later she is paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM

I agonized over this question for a career. In 25 years as a U.S. Government investigator doing security clearance investigations, one of the main things I looked for was honesty - and honesty seemed to vary by profession.

I rarely ran across a dishonest engineer, and they and other scientists seemed to be honest even when there was no need for honesty. Cops, on the other hand, seemed to have a serious tendency to stretch the truth to the limit, and so did military officers (but not enlisted personnel) - I think maybe both military and police officers are expected to have such an unrealistically high level of honesty that they cannot possibly meet expectations. Academics (like this dean) are expected to be honest, and they generally seemed to be. Astronauts were generally every bit as good as one might expect them to be.

Political functionaries were a mixed bag - some were slippery, and others took great pride in being bluntly honest. Journalists were a mixed bag, too, in much the same way.

Interestingly, the people who seemed to be most concerned about truth, were often the ones most likely to be untruthful.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM

well, she got 28 years of income & experience from her 'crime'...maybe now that she has a resumé that she doesn't need to fake, she'll get another job.

I guess MIT could have refused to accept her resignation, so it's only MIT's opinion that matters in this one.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:50 PM

Don Firth's friend...

For example, an acquaintance of mine falsified her resumé to get a job that she both wanted and needed. Had she not, she wouldn't have got the job. It turned out that she was more than competent, her employer was very pleased with her work, and the matter never came up. In this case, does the end justify the means?

...was in exactly the same position as the MIT dean; she just never got questioned and never got caught. I think there ought to be a "statute of limitations" on this sort of thing ~ 28 years of exemplary service ought to count for something. Well, I hope they didn't take her retirement benefits away; after 28 years on a job requiring postgraduate education (i.e. a job not open to 18-year-olds, with or without falsified resumes), she's old enough, or nearly so, to start taking it easy, even though she may well have wished to continue a few years longer.

In hindsight, her field of special expertise ~ reducing the anxiety around college admissions ~ would seem to have a solid real-life basis in her own psyche.

This case reminds me of the football coach hired away from Georgia Tech by Notre Dame a few years ago. The high degree of media scrutiny directed upon any candidate for this ultra-conspicuous posision uncovered something that had been easily kept secret until then, through several other fairly high-profile head coaching jobs. He had lied on his resume about getting a master's degree in education.

Sorry, I fail to remember his name. First name is George, and surname is actually Irish (which would have been fitting), not Norwegian like Rockne or Armenian like Parseghian.

Of course, the college treaching credential is completely irrelevant to qualification as head coach of a big-time US university football program. But he was exposed as dishonest, and so will probably never work in college football again. But I'm pretty sure he's making a comfortable living as a pro football assistant coach. The NFL is only interested in his coaching talent.

PS ~ Very interesting observations from Joe Offer. I've seen the same thing myself, but never put it all together quite so clearly. There are really so many cases where folks in positions where truth-telling matters the most just can't seem to resist the temptation to exaggerate, if not outright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 06:07 PM

Sometimes it bothered me to come down on somebody for dishonesty when the person was otherwise qualified for the job. However, I was aware that sometimes there were dozens of applicants for a single job. Why should somebody be rewarded with a job for taking an unfair advantage?

When people were being dishonest, I often tried to make sure they knew I had discovered their dishonesty. Perhaps they might not try it the next time. After 25 years of asking questions, I got pretty good at detecting dishonesty. The challenge of it helped keep the job interesting. Most of the time, though, I tried to make sure people had a good time when I was interviewing them. It made me have a good time, too - and they were much more likely to be cooperative and truthful. Sometimes, people wondered about hearing the sound of laughter coming from an investigator's office - but it worked very well for me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 06:15 PM

In many other professions, the act of misrepresenting one's academic credentials would have little if any consequence. Had the woman been, say, human resources director at a major corporation, nobody'd care about her degrees as long as she did her job well.

But academic institutions have different standards in that regard. Academic credentials are the very reasons academic institutions exist in the first place. At a college or university, a degree is not just a piece of paper. It's the nearest thing to a sacred icon that there is. A university dean lying about what degrees she has is equivalent to a priest lying about being a Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 06:30 PM

28 years? You have to ask?

What did you lie about 28 years ago? Let's see, I guess it might have been "of course I love you", or "no, it wasn't your fault". Or maybe "Of course I won't ???? in your !!!!"

Stupidity of the highest degree. The purpose of a CV is to provide clues as to whether you can do a job. If you have been doing the job for 28 years, it is functus officio.

That said, the UK courts, in matters that turn on falsehoods told to obtain jobs, have tended to side with the more anally retentive amongst you.

The one that really pushes my button is the ex-con. He knows he won't get a job if he reveals he is an ex-con. He lies. He gets the job. He goes on up the tree. Plainly he is rehabilitated (the purpose of the relevant systems, no?). The conviction comes out (usually because of a vindictive woman), he loses his job and the rehabilitation is jeopardised. This is civilisation?

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:05 PM

Sensible way out would have been for her to offer her resignation, and for the university to refuse the offer, since she'd shown she could do the job.

Some kind of statute of limitations on this kind of thing really ought to apply. Actually legally that would apply to most ex-cons in relation to most jobs. Their problem is liable to be with covering the gap in their career in a way that doesn't reveal what they were doing when they were out of society. (My advice would be, if possible, to use the time to study for a degree - maybe a law degree...)

What worries me, to drift the topic a bit, is the way that increasingly it's becoming impossible for young people even to get considered for all kinds of jobs if they haven't got formal qualifications which are completely irrelevant to the job. So they either get the qualifications, and in the process run up enormous debts, or maybe they fib, and start their lives on a precarious basis of dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:23 PM

I am proud as punch to be well known as a pretty damn good liar! I've moderated, and even won, numerous liars contests. I bragged loudly about being a CHAMPION LIAR.

Even once taught a LIARS CLASS at Davis-Elkins College in Elkins, West Virginia---Augusta 1995---and it was for actual college credit!

Dylan's whole shtick is a lie! Jack Elliott too. Probably 95% of my posts here at Mudcat were lies.

You can look it up!!!

It is also very true that I never, ever, told a lie in my life!

So there.

Love,(another lie)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:32 PM

I think it is essential that there be consequences for this kind of dishonesty. That is, if we are going to regard honesty as any kind of a virtue at all. If we collectively, as a society, are going to decide that honesty doesn't matter, okay then - but we can't have it both ways. To allow people in instances such as this to "get away with it", you are in effect punishing others for their honesty (specifically, those that didn't fake their resumes, and didn't get the cushy job for 28 years).

What should be questioned is the status accorded various educational degrees. If someone could do that job without having the "required" educational background, then maybe just maybe that educational background shouldn't have been considered a necessary qualification for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:39 PM

I only lie when I'm being paid to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:08 PM

By the way, I was working at a community college in the 1970s where a similar scandal took place. The dean in charge of health-related programs such as nursing and dental hygiene got busted for falsifying his credentials. He claimed to have bachelor's and master's degrees in nursing and a doctorate in education. Turned out the only legitimate post-secondary credentials he had was certification as an Emergency Medical Technician. I've always sort of admired the guy's nerve, if not his ethics.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:11 AM

One man's lies are a girl's downfall.
And vice verse-a !!

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:12 AM

Interestingly, the people who seemed to be most concerned about truth, were often the ones most likely to be untruthful.

Where do Governement investigators rank, Joe?   :-)


DC

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:00 AM

Ther are all sorts of other angles to this too. First of all, what was MIT's Personnel Dept doing 28 years ago? Why did they no check on her credentials? MIT itself bears some guilt, too.

And how about those other applicants that never got the job because she did under fals pretences? Could they raise a court claim for lost opportunity and potentially lost earnings through her fraudulent action - or through MIT's own incompetence?

I don't feel sorry for her, because as BillD pointed out, she profited from the fraud (and let's call a spade a spade, this was not a "mistake" - whoops, forgot! -, it was intended and premeditated fraud). Not only that, she built pension rights for 28 years, which she will now enjoy, so she will keep profitting!

I do not doubt that she is capable of fulfilling her function, after all this time. But she was right to resign, and MIT was right to accept her resignation. If she was kept on, and you had a son or daughter studying in MIT under such a dean, how would you feel? She is lucky she doesn't have to return all that income! And now she can apply for other jobs on the strength of her experience (whether legitimately gained or not, lucky her), but also with the stain of a very public dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:20 AM

did not have the courage to correct my resume when I applied for my current job or at any time since

In other words, she didn't just lie 28 years ago, she's been lying continuously since then, every time she's gone for promotion or transfer.

Had she owned up at any time, I suspect there's a good chance she'd have got away with a formal reprimand. But since it looks like she was found out by someone else, she clearly had no intention to own up - whether through worry or through mendacity, it doesn't really matter to an employer.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:18 AM

also:

"Patti Richards, spokeswoman for MIT, said the school had received information about Jones' credentials and investigated them. "At various times she claimed to have received degrees from Albany Medical College, Rensellaer Polytechnic Institute, and Union College and we confirmed that she had not graduated from any of these schools.""

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:20 AM

lost this post:

from a further news article:

"Jones was named dean of admissions at MIT in 1997 and received MIT's highest award for administrators, the "MIT Excellence Award for Leading Change." She was also the 2006 winner of the "Gordon Y Billard Award" given "for special service of outstanding merit" performed for the school."

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:57 AM

I think she still deserves those awards, as she won them presumably through her abilities and achievements.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:58 AM

I do NOT argue with her keeping the awards- she earned them.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:44 AM

Sadly, it was the right thing to do. If the policy becomes "we don't mind you being a liar as long as you're our liar..." then the slippery slope starts accelerating. Just look at the Bush admnistration, which pays people handsomely to lie through their teeth, as long as they stay loyal while doing so.

Her dishonesty was a solution to aproblem -- she was good enough to get and keep the job, but couldn't get past the HR hurdles on the straight truth, because of their reliance on "credentials". The underlying problem, of course, is that HR people have no insight into the genuine potential of candidates, so they rely on paperwork as a substitute. The professionals whose notional job it is to find productive beings with the kinds of hearts and minds that will do the company proud (whatever its trade) simply do not have the tools to do their job in any predictable, reliable way.

And underlying that is a major paradigm problem in the field of psychology and a badly incomplete understanding of human beings and what they do.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

Well, now her resumé can say
Good administrator AND good 'prevaricator'...some places will think part 2 is a virtue.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM

Truth is only as important as the the insistence people place upon it.

In the 31 scenarios when a nuclear response (by various countries) was immenent within a minute or more, there was an insistence upon the truth.

When a ground war is being sold on American media it seems the truth is only important enough to hide every day for 6 years.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM

...she was good enough to get and keep the job, but couldn't get past the HR hurdles on the straight truth, because of their reliance on "credentials". The underlying problem, of course, is that HR people have no insight into the genuine potential of candidates, so they rely on paperwork as a substitute.

Ideally the thing to do would have been for her to challenge that situation by using false credentials to get given a chance at the job, get it and do it for long enough to show she could do it very well - and then come clean and offer her resignation. The ethical dilemma then might have been if she was offered the option of keeping the job on condition she held her tongue about the whole affair...

Polishing up a CV so as to camouflage the embarrassing stuff, make yourself look better in some respects than the facts actually indicate, and put a positive spin on things generally, and then doing the same in interviews - I'm pretty sure that's pretty standard practice. In principle this is no different. I'd be very surprised if some of the people making this decision hadn't done that kind of stuff in the course of their careers.

"Cast the first stone..."

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:20 PM

No - there's a difference between putting a positive spin on something, etc., and out-and-out lying. Furthermore, it is a general understanding that a limited amount of minor "fudging" on a cv is pardonable; by the same token, it's clearly understood that lying about something on the magnitude of what degrees you've earned is not. By way of analogy - in this part of the world, it is generally understood that driving a few kilometres per hour over the speed limit is not a serious infringement of the law - but you will get no sympathy if you are fined for driving 100 km per hr over the posted limit.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:52 PM

don;t kid yourself
Spin is lying

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM

Not necessarily. If I say I'm discussing ethics rather than saying I'm procrastinating, I'm certainly putting a positive spin on what I'm doing right now, but am I lying?

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:50 PM

No - there's a difference between putting a positive spin on something, etc., and out-and-out lying. Furthermore, it is a general understanding that a limited amount of minor "fudging" on a cv is pardonable.

It's the same kind of difference as stealing directly and stealing by finding. Or a politician spinning and a politician lying. ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - and dancing on the end of a pin, Clinton wasn't actually lying. Not technically on the basis of a legal definition.)

That "general understanding" is where the heart of "dishonesty in society" really lies. It's what corrupts honest people into adopting dishonesty as a way of life. The occasional out and out case fibbing episode like this is trivial in comparison.

That's what I mean by "cast the first stone" - it seems to me there's a whiff of hypocrisy drifting around.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:31 PM

What, my British friends, does CV stand for? I've been wondering for yonks.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:40 PM

Yes, you're right of course. On an open highway on a clear day, I tend to drive five or ten kms/hr over the speed limit - what right have I to complain then, about someone driving 100 kms/hr over the speed limit down a residential street where children play? And once as a schoolboy, I knowingly kept a textbook that belonged to my school - so I certainly won't call the police if someone breaks into my house and steals everything of value that I own. I once told an acquaintance that I was too busy to go out and have a drink, when I wasn't - far be it from me to protest then, when a contractor absconds with money of mine which he told me he was going to use to buy materials for my house. In a fit of anger, I kicked a dog, so if some thug in a fit of anger kicks my head in, don't expect me to lay charges. That would be to "cast the first stone". And, to the matter at hand, I once prepared a resume on which I indicated I held a certain job during "the summer" of 1977, when in fact I had only held the job for six weeks of that summer, and had spent three or four weeks in idleness. I see now that this is really no different than a lying claim to have earned a graduate degree.

Yes, there IS a certain whiff in the air ...

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:51 PM

CV - curriculum vitae. Course of life. A summary of what you've done in your life, more especially the stuff that might be relevant to the job you are applying for. What else do these get called in other countries?

Slippery slope once you start trying to adjust the record in your favour. The thing is, we all know there is very little relation between being good at getting jobs and being good at doing jobs. Experienced interviewers try to get past the interview and application skills when making an appointment, but it's not easy to get the balance right. Sometimes even good interview skills and an impressive CV can work against a candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:11 PM

Résumé. A summary of one's education and job experience.

CV. Same animal, different names.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:49 PM

It seems to be quite common for people to include false information on their resume--according to a recent article in Inc Magazine, Almost Half of Resumes are Bogus--

The thing is that people who are dishonest about their work on a resume may also be inclined to be dishonest while on the job--

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Hawker
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:33 PM

In answer to the question how important is the truth I'd say of utmost importance.........................................................................................................................................................................................................Unless the question is
Does My bum look big in this?
;0)
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:13 PM

Lucy, did you miss my post above? I cover this matter (so to speak). Paragraph three.

Check it out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:16 PM

I don't lie; I just remember things that never happened.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM

Hans Schwerte, the rector of the University of Aachen, professor of German literature since 1964, has lost his office, his professorship, his order of Merit for the Federal Republic, his pension, and several honours when in 1995 it was found out that his real name was Hans Schneider, a fanatical Nazi most likely involved Nazi crimes. He had let Hans Schneider be declared dead in 1945, took the new identity of Hans Schwerte and married Schneider's "widow", that is he remarried his wife under the new name.

Between 1945 (1949) and 1995, he was a good member of the new republic, politically a left leaning liberal.

Should we have overlook his Nazi past, as the anal explosive would wish? I think not.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How important is the truth?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

We're drifting , but drifting into interesting areas.

I see from this article about that case that "there have been an estimated 100,000 Germans assuming false identities in the immediate aftermath of the war".

And the question asked in this article is not all that simple. "Once a criminal, always a criminal? Or should we allow people to return to the democratic process who forsake the path of violence and advocacy of a bloody ideology? Can we take such people seriously, or will their conversion always remain tainted with what they did in the past?"

I have in mind the catastrophic consequences in Iraq of the occupation authorities to impose a total purge on Baathists, and on all Baathist officialdom, civil and military.