Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:06 AM

Lizzie I take it you are confessing they are your words.

When it was a west country tradition called wrecking - which let us not mince words involved dragging innocent ships onto rocks, drowning the sailors and stealing the contents of the ship you were all in favour of it. "The wreckers blood runs through our veins" you said...... Are you really from the West Country by the way?

Even when it was stealing BMW motorbikes and the possessions of people who were emigrating and could watch their possessions being looted on TV - you were still in favour of it.

But one stupid individual and you want to close down a tradition which certainly in the last ten years has done little harm to animals. To cap it all you are not prepared to close down steeplechasing where a number of animals can be put to death in one race sometimes.

Now I find that contradictory. Clearly you can live with it.

Now which calendar customs do you normally visit? Because some of them also have chance to do something stupid if you want to.

You better start making a list of the ones to avoid. Can I recommend Steve Roud's book too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM

I've been to Appleby a few times, Ruth - and have even rigdden in the river - swum, once - it was an amazing experience. It scares me that i had no idea how deep it was - this big shelf that is mentioned. You can bet I won't be doing that again. I've not seen horses being held under - to me, the harshest thing to watch is the really rough riding and the way the young lads thrash the horses (by thrash I don't mean whip - i mean go as fast as is possible) up and down mettalled roads - all day. This can't be good for their joints. It is the equine equivalent of doing wheelspins in a souped up motor - except most of these horses aren't souped up - they're working cobs. I know there are plenty of good dealers there - and it is a spectacle - but the younger generation, now growing up, seems to have a different edge, somehow. Bombing up and down the road might have been fine, 150 years ago when it wasn't tarmacced - but it will bugger the horses nowadays.

I hope that the travellers sort it out - I know it seems to have been an isolated incident by a stupid individual - but it casts a pall over the event. Not only for the poor horse - who had a terrifying ordeal, but it would have been witnessed by possibly thousands of people around the bridge - many children - and it won't be a hapy memory of what should have been a wonderful experience. Watching a horse drown and be dragged out on to the river bank must have been the most dreadful thing.

It is a truly living tradition, and therefore it is going to change, because of changes in the behaviour of those participating in it.
Hope it doesn't go too far down a bad road.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM

Anyway, everyone here has agreed that the actions of this one stupid individual were callous and wrong. But some have tried to put what happened into perspective alongside the many deaths of horses at the Grand National alone. If you want a legitimate target, have a go at the racing industry. Not to mention the hunting fraternity.

I'd like some more evidence for the idea that the horses' heads are regularly held under water. Most of the sites I've looked at refer to the horses simply being washed in the river each day using washing-up liquid. This is also how Roud reports it (The English Year, pp 213-14)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:48 PM

"I for one won't ever go near Appleby Horse Fair."

As I'd be willing to bet you've never visited a traditional or calendar custom in your life, that's hardy earth-shattering news.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:52 PM

So let me get this right....taking an orange and/or a packet of biscuits off Branscombe beach is equal to drowning a horse through malicious stupidity, or holding the heads of all horses concerned with the Appleby Fair under water because it's 'tradition' is it?

May be in your book, sure as hell ain't in mine though!


Greg...Yes you misunderstood my words.

Blowz..yes, you're right, of course it was said with humour. Sadly the ones who've followed me round for years have no humour. Nowt I can do about that though.

This thread is about the Appleby Horse Fair and whether it is 'A Tradition Too Far'

Once again, until the travellers themselves decide to change what happens, I think it should be stopped. It is one thing to take your horse to be washed each morning in the river, it is quite another to swim it out to deep water and put it's head underwater. That's cruelty pure and simple...and arrogance too, terrible arrogance!

"It is our right, as it is our tradition"

And having read numerous sites on it, the travellers/gypsies are the largest contingent of people there it would seem. They call themselves travellers, I call them that too, as that is what they choose to be called. Nothing 'racist' about that at all. Appleby is the largest gathering of travellers in this country and I'm sure they would thus regard it as 'their' fair, as in belonging to 'them'...

Why DOES English Folk Music go hand in hand with being as pedantic as some people seem to be in Mudcat? Answers on a VERY BIG postcard please. ;0)

Can't you just enjoy the music without nit-picking ALL the time? Can't you just read posts without dissecting every word, deciding that YOU and YOU ALONE know EXACTLY what the author of those words meant, when in actual fact you know sweet F&A about it...

However, I'll leave this thread now to those who think that to hold the head of a horse underwater is OK...That sickens me I'm afraid..and I for one won't ever go near Appleby Horse Fair.

Oh..and if anyone wants the number of the RSPCA, to complain, then it's 0870 5555999, and if you can get through, complain for me too would you, because I spent about 20 minutes trying to get past their crazy phone system, without any luck. I'll try again tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Exactly the point. They were both wrong. Not the whole of the people of Cornwall or Devon or the West Country, (in fact they came from all over) and not the whole of the traveller population of Appleby during Horse Fair Week. But our correspondent(s) saw them in contradictory terms. I think it is fair to point this out.

Just to help a little, the first post comes from January 25th 2007 and the second one comes from above.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: FlatbackCaper (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM

Don't let the racists get ya down, they only do it for the attention

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: FlatbackCaper (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM

I am aware of the story, as I am aware that "wreckers" rights no longer exist contrary to what some people make think. Theft is theft regardless, and those involved should be, if they were not already, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as should the "gentleman" regardless of the type of person, who caused the death of the horse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:49 PM

Yes, I'm sure Folkiedave could. As you could if you searched.
I remember every word of it, and a whole lot more.
Regrettably.
It happened last February, and those who went to the Sidmouth reunion came back with tales of Sidmouth (and further afield) inhabitants indulging in this 'traditional activity'.
What they were actually doing was stealing the personal effects of people in the stressful process of emigration after a container ship made an unscheduled stop in 'Ms Cornish's' backyard.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: FlatbackCaper (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:38 PM

And, of course, Folkiedave, you can give us the exact sources of these "quotes", by that I mean the exact threads from where you cut and pasted the said "quotes

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:22 PM

To be fair to Lizzie (if indeed it were she who wrote that), I suspect it was said with something of her tongue in her cheek tho ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM

Would someone please tell that idiotic, holier than thou, goodytwoshoes twit of a woman, from The Ministry Of Wrecks And We OWN EVERYTHING' that she is in the land of The Wreckers down here!

Doesn't she know that Wrecker's Blood runs through our veins...and it matters not if it's a BMW bike, a box of oranges or 75 years of 'newborn' nappies...A WRECK IS A WRECK and it's cargo belongs to the people of The West Country!!!!!!!!!!

Could the person who wrote this - who clearly believes it is OK for the people of the West country to break the law by stealing - who with a decent historical perspective would know that wrecking killed people - possibly be the same person who wrote:

Tradition is no excuse whatsoever for abuse and murder.

No of course it couldn't be the same person. Could it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:29 AM

I forgot to mention, wasn't there a Lizzie Cornish who defended "wrecking" as a traditional "cornish" activity when a ship mistakenly landed at Sidmouth?

Was she any relation to the woman who is posting on this thread?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

"No convenient label like "gypsey" or "traveller" or "pikey" to blame there.'

Agreed - interesting how events like this bring the right-wingers out in people. The 'theirs' and 'theys' which pepper some of these posts wouldn't be out of place in a BNP leaflet.

Alienating travelling people in this manner won't help the animals either.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:13 AM

Hmmm...30 horses in the past 10 years, as opposed to one in the same time period...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:04 AM

For a little perspective - Animal Aid

No convenient label like "gypsey" or "traveller" or "pikey" to blame there.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:34 AM

"One rider, who clearly had little ability to control the animal, took a horse in to the water, despite its obvious fear of the situation."

So, we have one idiot here.

"Howls of disgust and pleas to remove it emerged from the crowd...Cries of "Get it out" shattered the deathly silence that had descended on spectators huddled on both riverbanks and across a bridge over the water...Experienced fairgoers looked on in horror, shouting: 'Get him, get him up'...Another man then plunged in to help..."

Does this sound like those attending regarded what was happening as usual practice?


"As a crowd built up around the animal, the rider – who did not own the horse – fled among a group of other young men...Groups of angry horse owners gave chase and police radioed to officers to search the town."

Does this sound like the other fairgoers and horse owners condoned what happened?

"RSPCA officers were on the scene to monitor the washing ritual."

So the RSPCA know all about it, and monitor the practice - they haven't shut it down, which they would have done by now if they felt the risk to the animals normally warranted such action.

And the last word to an "experienced fairgoer" who witnessed the scene:

"It just takes one idiot to spoil things."

That's what it was: one stupid bloke. I hope he's caught and prosecuted. But previous comments about getting some perspective on what happened, and about the far greater risks posed to horses through racing, eventing and hunting, are entirely appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:31 AM

Maybe "they" will have "their" steeplechasing taken away from "them"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:29 AM

I cannot imagine anyone condoning the drowning of a horse.

Lizzie will be pressing for 3 day eventing and steeplechasing to be banned of course, and had she actually heard about them would have done so ages ago.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

"I would suggest that more horses die 3 Day Eventing or Steeplechasing or Fox Hunting"

yup. They do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

Although I in no way agree with what happened .....lets get this into perspective.

This is the first time in the past 10 years that there has been a death at Appleby Fair.

This was the action of one individual ...... should all travellers be blamed or the Fair be banned???

If the police or the RSPCA find this individual he may or may not be prosecuted.

I would suggest that more horses die 3 Day Eventing or Steeplechasing or Fox Hunting yet no one suggests that their owners be prosecuted or that such events are banned.

Come on Folk - get real

This was just an unfortunate accident

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM

Lizzie Cornish: quote "they should have their Horse Fair taken away". Don't you think your use of the word "they" and "their" is a little insensitive in this context? It seems to me to imply that because one person, who may or may not have been a Gypsy, did something wrong, that other Gypsies should be collectively punished for it. Is that really how you think the world should be organised?
Or am I misreading your point?
    Also, at the risk of being tediously repetitious, may I point out that not everyone who goes to Appleby is a Gypsy or Traveller. There are plenty of horse traders there, not to mention ordinary rubber-neckers(even some folkies)who belong in neither category.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:33 AM

We **should** hear about it though.

There's no excuse, in my book, for them to do anything else other than go public about this and reassure everyone that it will *never* happen again. They should go out of their way to let the press and the police know what is going on too.

But most of all they need to re-write the rules and stop holding the heads of horses under water. HOW the RSPCA hasn't stepped in and stopped this I've no idea, but I'll be phoning them later today to try and find out what they think and what they intend to do.

If the travellers don't come forward and do the honourable thing...then they *must* close down Appleby Horse Fair.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: gnomad
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:35 AM

A horrible incident.

It seems probable to me that the offending person will get his come-uppance from the traveler community. As a group they know who he is, and they will heartily disapprove. However, like some other "communities within the community" they are more given to settling such matters internally, than to handing offenders over to more formal authorities.

I suspect that we may not hear of this man's punishment, but I would bet that it will happen, and that it may well be more severe than our system would impose.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:56 PM

Oh, gee...good. I was afraid I'd killed the thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:01 PM

>>>No horse that is not 100% comfortable in water, should be taken/forced into it.<<<

Sorry, I just need to correct that as it came out the wrong way and gives a very different meaning to the one it was supposed to.

What I meant was NO horse should EVER be 'forced' into water...or indeed, 'forced' to do anything that it does not wish to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

You asked what I thought in an earlier thread Blowz, so here's my answer now..sorry for the delay.

I think it should be stopped, unless changes are made.

If the RSPCA cannot man it safely and the people who are attending have no respect for horses, then they deserve to lose their fair and their tradition.

To hell with their 'charter' and to hell with them if they refuse. If they cannot police it themselves...the Travelling Families that is, then they have no right to continue it.

All animals should be treated with respect. They are NOT there for amusement or for idiots to prove how strong and tough they are. The fact that the snivelling little creep 'ran off' speaks volumes I think. If it was an accident he'd have been distraught rather than frightened. Full marks to the people who went in to try and save the horse though/

The real test now though is if they turn in one of their own. That is the true test. If they give him cover or shelter, when he should be brought to task for what he did, then they should lose all respect from others and they should have their Horse Fair taken away.

I have no sympathy with any person who deliberately hurts any animal, or child, or human being. Life is sacred and it matters not if you are a spider, a fly, a horse or the King of Siam..Everything has a value and a reason to be here. Everything has a soul. ?Everything matters.

Tradition is no excuse whatsoever for abuse and murder. Once upon a time it was a 'tradition' of sorts to watch people hang, but thankfullly we've moved on. We can also move on from The Appleby Horse Fair, unless the people concerned 'move on' and start taking responsibility. To start with NO horse should have it's head put under the water...what a disgusting, terrifying thing to do. No horse that is not 100% comfortable in water, should be taken/forced into it...and anyone, ANYONE caught being cruel to any animal gets every book going thrown at them. That's how I'd run it.

But...as I said...it's now up to the travellers themselves to behave with integrity and honour over this, for themselves and their own pride and for the soul of that poor horse too, who died for no reason that I can see, other than an out of control idiot. At least in
death, his/her soul deserves some respect and the man who did that should be accountable and have the guts to be so too.

IF he wants to prove what a 'man' he is, then come forward and face the consequences of his actions. They should throw every law they can at him and make damn sure he's prosecuted.



Blowz... if you look on the links below you will find someone to restore your faith a little....

Her name is Cathy and the first link below is Cathy's Myspace page, which is a tribute to her Mum, Susie Bundrick, who died in April this year. Susie was married to John 'Rabbit' Bundrick. She was deeply loved and greatly missed, as you'll see. Susie's the sister-in-law of Reg Meuross. She was passionate about animals, horses in particular, and she had charities going for them. Cathy is now trying to raise enough money to buy land for the Horse Sanctuary that her mother so dearly hoped to be able to get.

She has a few Myspace pages now for their various charities and we can all help raise funds for them by donating old phones and cartridges, the details are all in the second link below...

I've great respect for what Cathy is trying to do and I'm sure she would have been as distressed as you obviously are Blowz...

Thank you for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Susie Bundrick's Myspace - It takes a short while to load so please be patient

'Last Angel' - Equine Defence



Lizzie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:16 PM

Well, thank you Brad Pitt.
Such offensive racism will really help.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Typical pikeys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:03 PM

There's a reason the Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded decades before the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children...

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:40 PM

Look, a wonderful animal is FOOKING DEAD! Who CARES if it was 'travellers' or NOT??? The horse is DEAD because of disrespect, stupidity, ignorance, 'macho' (if so), and I don't CARE if it was Princess Anne, Her Supreme Majestsy, George Bush, Condie Rice,Joe Blow Public or Dick Francis who was riding/dunking it. The horse is DEAD.

I hope the rider/owner what whoever is caught and proscuted for at least cruelty. As intelligent as horses are, it could as well be murder. Get the courts to believe that if you will. It after all was just an animal.

You know what? In some cases, TRADITION deserves to die.

You suppose they will 'wake' the horse? They should.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: folk1e
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

If it was NOT accidental, what could possibly be the reason?
Nobody in their right mind would buy a horse to drown it!
It reflects badly on the "travelers"..... publicity they could do without!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: dozy rozy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:45 PM

I know of no traveller that would deliberately drown their horse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:44 PM

My comment was directed with respect to your meat eating post - I agree re Grand National ... call me fickle but it's my viewpoint

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:43 PM

Oh for heavens sake ... drowning an animal is a different matter entirely - or do you not think there should be any animal welfare acts as long as people rear animals for eating?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:33 PM

Not to mention abattoirs, of course.If killing an animal is wrong, then killing millions is worse than killing one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:32 PM

A very unfortunate thing, but not on the same scale as the Grand National where death is regularly inflicted on horses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:06 PM

Unfortunately it's being treated in the same way, as when a horse dies in the Grand National.
In both cases the horse would not have died if it had not been placed in that situation by its rider.

I wonder what the headlines would have been if it had been the rider that had drowned.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM

here is the Link to the BBC video
This takes you to a page with a link to clik on. Rather upsettingly, it siggests that the horse didn't drown accidentally.   The authorities don't seem too concerned but, thus has to be taken in context with the fact that most other reports suggest it was a trgic accident.

Personally, i am gutted, as you can probably tell by the number of posts I am making on this thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: concertina ceol
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

Oh dear indeed.

I suppose it proves that tradition for traditions sake is not good. Some traditions have died out for a reason. Aspects of this event such as this should be consigned to history.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:19 PM

Oh dear.

It was announced last night at the EFDSS do that Doc Rowe wasn't there to accept his award because he was at Appleby. No doubt he'll have witnessed this distressing incident.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

And another - this has not nice images ...

another link

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:06 PM

Another ink to the story ....

Horse drowns while being 'swum' at Appleby

Subject: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Fa
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:48 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=461252&in_page_id=1770

I have seen a BBC video which also suggests that it was not an accident that the horse drowned .. oddly, it doesn't seem to be available now