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BS: Is the Blair a Catholic?
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Subject: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:01 AM Does the Pope spit in the woods? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: GUEST,arran Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:08 AM yes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: GUEST,Rog Peek Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM As I understood it he isn't at present, but he's contemplating it. Perhaps he's heard the rumour that no matter how great the sin, as long as you confess it you'll go to heavan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Rapparee Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:15 AM JUST what the church needs. I hope that he's been taking RCIA instructions, 'cause they won't let him in otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: MMario Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM and if he has left his office, and as a private citizen wants to convert, who's business is it besides his and his wife's? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Rapparee Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM Could he remain PM and be a Catholic? And if so, why would anyone care? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: MMario Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM Could he remain PM and be a Catholic? the legalities of that are not clear...remember, they've got a State Religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM The religion of ministers is not proscribed by law, only that of members of he royal family who are in line for the throne. As heir to the throne Prince Charles cannot marry a Roman Catholic and succeed to that throne. TB's wife Cherie is a devout Catholic, and there is no doubt in my mind that he will convert, and fairly soon too. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: bobad Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:56 AM Is this sort of thing still a big issue in the UK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM There's still that bit about advisors to the throne, so the job of PM is definately out. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:03 AM The UK throne is a Protestant succession only. Remember Henry the Eighth and all that bobad. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:32 AM No restrictions on religion in the UK for anybody except the Royal Family and ministers of their various churches, and that's as it ought to be. It was an issue in 1839, not now. We've had a PM, Disraeli, of Jewish ancestry. But it's typical of Blair's rather sneaky way of doing things- he wouldn't declare himself openly while he was hoping to garner a few extra votes, just a few people maybe might be put off. Everything, including his immortal soul, is subordinate to PR. He's also made a point of favouring faith schools while in office, though I think that's more a matter of getting schools out of local democratic control, and into the hands of a private quango. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: GUEST,CrazyEddie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM LTS: "There's still that bit about advisors to the throne, so the job of PM is definately out." Can you expand on that a bit, or link to some info. on it? I was aware of the Monarch & Spouse thing, but not about advisers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: GUEST,Ian cookieless Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:52 AM If he was still going to be PM, why would this matter? On Sunday he will be ex-PM, why does this matter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM Well all I can say is, he'd better reserve the confessional for a month or so, he's a lot to get off his chest! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: MMario Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:16 AM If you read the article linked at the top of the thread - it explains that there were acts which forbade and close advisors to the monarch being Catholic; PM would certainly qualify; Some argue that legistlation since annuls that mandate, others that it does not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM I don't think any of those restrictions could stand up legally now, in face of Humans Rights Legislation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:05 PM Employment legislation still allows exemptions for religious organisations, and I bet that would qualify. Anyway Lizzie is the heid o' the kirk. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:24 PM No, she's not - so far as the Church of Scotland is concerned she is just a worshipper. It's only in relation to the Church of Englandn that she has any special status. I suppose it might be possible to claim that there was an exemption for the monarch by virtue of her/his role as Supreme Governor of the C of E. But that couldn't extend to the stuff about "advisers" in other capacities. Incidentally it's only Catholics affected here - if a British monarch wanted to marry a Hindu or an Moslem or a Jew or a Scientologist, etc, no problem on these grounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM Kirk is generic up here Kevin, now if I'd said THE Kirk, it would have been different. :~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Rog Peek Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:39 PM MMario - I f he'd not wanted his 'business' shared, he could actually have done on the quiet without involving the main man. Now Tony are you sure this conversion is going to get you off the hook with God? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM A Catholic cannot be Prime Minister. We already covered that on another thread. Tony Blair does go to Mass with his wife but is not Catholic himself. Would have been nice to see him convert and challenge the old laws though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:38 PM BBC article there is no constitutional barrier to such a move (BBC) A Catholic cannot be Prime Minister. We already covered that on another thread (Jim Lad) So who's right? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Rapparee Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:44 PM I am, Wolfgang. I'm a Library |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM "..still, I'll be the Vicar of Braaaaaay, sir!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM The reasons Blair put off becoming a Catholic would have been political rather than constitutional. The last leader of the Tories but one was a Catholic, and in practice that wouldn't have been a bar to him being Prime Minister if the Tories had come to power. Anything can be fixed when it needs to be fixed. That's one thing about not having a formal constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:38 PM I don't see a reason for people to be cynical about this. I know a whole lot of people who really enjoy being Catholic. I think maybe Blair put it off because as PM, he didn't have time for the RCIA* process, a yearlong preparation program that can be quite wonderful. And as PM, it might be difficult for him to be treated like a "real person" by other participants in the program. Over the last nine months before Easter, I spent every Wednesday night with our RCIA group, and it was a remarkable experience. It didn't hurt that these newcomers treated me like some kind of guru. My self-esteem got a bit battered by some Catholic fundamentalists when I directed the RCIA program the year before, but this year went very well. I think Tony Blair has a far better reputation in the US than he has at home. His contemporaries Clinton and Bush are people that even their supporters can't be proud of, so Blair made a much better impression here. Yeah, it does seem that he can be overly concerned with appearances and "spin," but not overwhelmingly so. He tried to stay in the center and seemed to try to serve the entire nation, not just one ideological point of view. From my perspective, I think Blair did a lot to soften the damage done by Margaret Thatcher. -Joe- *Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, and I wish the Catholic Church could think of better names and resist the use of acronyms for sacraments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:51 PM A good remark heard on Radio 4 tonight. Somewhere in the attic of number 10 Downing Street, there is a portrait of Tony Blair, getting more and more left wing over time. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:22 PM I think the animus against Blair is based mainly on a sense of betrayal by someone most people here started by liking and trusting. Robert Browning's poem "The Lost Leader" (about William Wordsworth) expresses it pretty well. And the last line fits in here rather well.: Just for a handful of silver he left us, Just for a riband to stick in his coat – Found the one gift of which fortune bereft us, Lost all the others she lets us devote; They, with the gold to give, doled him out silver, So much was theirs who so little allowed: How all our copper had gone for his service! Rags – were they purple, his heart had been proud! We that had loved him so, followed him, honoured him, Lived in his mild and magnificent eye, Learned his great language, caught his clear accents, Made him our pattern to live and to die! Shakespeare was of us, Milton was for us, Burns, Shelley, were with us – they watch from their graves! He alone breaks from the van and the freemen, – He alone sinks to the rear and the slaves! We shall march prospering – not through his presence; Songs may inspirit us, – not from his lyre; Deeds will be done, – while he boasts his quiescence, Still bidding crouch whom the rest bade aspire: Blot out his name, then, record one lost soul more, One task more declined, one more footpath untrod, One more devils'-triumph and sorrow for angels, One wrong more to man, one more insult to God! Life's night begins: let him never come back to us! There would be doubt, hesitation and pain, Forced praise on our part – the glimmer of twilight, Never glad confident morning again! Best fight on well, for we taught him – strike gallantly, Menace our heart ere we master his own; Then let him receive the new knowledge and wait us, Pardoned in heaven, the first by the throne! If he'd become a Catholic before, as well as the problem Joe mentioned (which could probably have been got round) there'd have been political complications. Every policy would have been liable to be interpreted in the media as him either being subservient to or rebellious against Rome. And there could well have been another political price to pay. It's still true to say that a lot of people in Britain who would be unwilling to express hostility to any other religion don't have any such reluctance when it comes to Catholicism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Rog Peek Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:01 PM Yes McG, I blame Catholics for always having to eat fish on a friday when I was at school! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: concertina ceol Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM Blair is a catholic (in private). A catholic can't be prime minister (otherwise Bliar would have been "out") especially with a presbyterian Chancellor! Which ex Tory leader was catholic - IDS? - Shaw's Pop Tory Boy(Hague)? or the Jewish Michael "something of the night about him" Howard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM Iain Duncan Smith is a Catholic. (The same goes for the last LibDem leader, Charles Kennedy.) In practice that wouldn't have kept him out of Number 10, if there'd been a Tory majority under his leadership. Michael Howard's religion is of course irrelevant in this context - there's no kind of ban, even in theory, against Jews, Moslems, Hindus or any other religion or non religion. It's just Catholics. I've sometimes thought that a good way to deal with the Northern Irish entanglement would have been for the Queen to turn Catholic. So much for the appetite for the English connection so far as Ian Paisley was concerned, I suspect... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:09 AM There is no "Constitution" in the U.K. I'll find the other thread for yous. Here it is. Warning! It gets ugly in there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:14 AM Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs From: Jim Lad - PM Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM Read This From Wikipedia: The Catholic Relief Act 1829 (10 Geo IV c.7) was passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 24 March 1829, and received the Royal Assent on 13 April. It was the culmination of the process of Catholic Emancipation in the United Kingdom, and in Ireland it repealed the last of the Penal Laws. Its passage followed a campaign on the issue by Irish lawyer and newly elected Member of Parliament Daniel O'Connell. The act allowed Catholics to have a seat in parliament. This condition was crucial as Daniel O'Connell had won a seat in a by-election in County Clare but under British law he was forbidden (because of his religion) to take his seat in Westminster. Sir Robert Peel, who had for all of his career opposed emancipation (and had, in 1815, challenged O'Connell to a duel) was forced to conclude: "though emancipation was a great danger, civil strife was a greater danger." Fearing a revolution in Ireland, Peel drew up the Catholic Relief Bill and guided it through the House of Commons. To overcome the opposition of both the House of Lords and King George IV, the Duke of Wellington worked to ensure passage in the House of Lords, and threatened to resign as Prime Minister if the King did not give Royal Assent. The Catholic Relief Act was a compromise, however, and effectively disenfranchised the Catholic peasants of Ireland, the so-called Forty Shilling Freeholders. The act raised fivefold the economic qualifications for voting. Starting in 1793, any man renting or owning land worth at least forty shillings (the equivalent of two Pounds Sterling), had been permitted to vote. Under the Catholic Relief Act, this was raised to ten pounds.[citation needed] The act also makes it illegal for a Catholic to directly or indirectly advise the British Sovereign on appointments in the Church of England.[citation needed] There has not yet been a Catholic Prime Minister to date, since the act's passing. The Prime Minister usually advises the Sovereign on appointment of Bishops in the Church, although today, the Prime Minister's role is somewhat of a formality, channelling information from the Church authorities to the Sovereign. The current Prime Minister, Tony Blair, whilst married to a Catholic, is not one himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM They'd find a way round it if it arose - it's inconceivable that these laws could be used to stop a Catholic leader of a pat that won an election becoming Prime Minister. And it couldn't stand up in court assuming some nutter went for a judicial review - human rights legislation would rule out such a ban. Currently advice on appointing C of E bishops is in any case delegated to people who are supposed to know more about it than politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: robomatic Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:03 PM Joe Offer - thank you for explaining the acronym. McGrath - Thanks for the Browning, one of if not my favorite poet in the language. What was the event regarding Wordsworth that motivated the poem? I still have a high regard for Blair. I think he put into words many of the motivations that the US leader is not adept at vocalizing, I do NOT think he's a lapdog, and he has paid a high political price for his actions. As I write this I'm listening to a BBC broadcast about just this subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM I think Browning wrote this when Wordsworth accepted the title/post of Poet Laureate in 1843, and in doing so seen as finally having publicly abandoned any remnants of his youthful radicalism. The thing about Blair is that people feel betrayed. No one can feel betrayed by Bush - he's given people who voted for what they were voting for, even if they may not feel too happy now about how it worked out. He pretty clearly isn't someone anyone could seriously expect much good from. But with Blair people could, and people did. "I'm a pretty straight sort of guy" he famously said, asking people to trust him, and in large part they believed he was and did trust him. Browning couldn't have written that poem about someone who he hadn't admired as a great poet, and one whose judgement he had trusted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Rog Peek Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:46 PM ".......he has paid a high political price for his actions." I'm sure that will be a great consoltion to the thousands of innocent civilians who've lost members of their family and pretty well everything else. No, not a lap dog, Bush's poodle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: robomatic Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:16 AM Today listened to "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me..." and Sago got a huge laugh with the phrase: "...when Bush was, -quote- 'elected'....." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:15 AM "..They'd find a way round it if it arose." My arse! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM I'm thinking of how a few years back they found, at a late stage, that there was a law which should have made it impossible for Prince Charles to get married to Camilla in a Civil Ceremony. No problem, they just decided it didn't apply. One way and another, in the UK, politics can always get round the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: goatfell Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM I Heard that the Queen was a Christian, which means she is not a Protestant, but she can't say that in public or Big Chas would become King |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM Protestants aren't Christians? That seems a bit extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 24 Jun 07 - 08:12 PM "That seems a bit extreme." Sorry Mr McGrath and no offense meant to Arran but that really is about the extent of education on the matter in the West of Scotland. Most people wouldn't raise an eyebrow at what he said and I sincerely doubt that Arran sees the flaw in it himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Gurney Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:24 PM The question was on NZ radio today. It stated that Mr T. had an audience with the Pope which lasted a hour, which is three times as long as such audiences with heads-of-state usually do. It also averred that it also contained a severe bollocking about Tony's actions as incumbent, particularly about Iraq, but other issues too. This attitude on the part of the Vicars of the Church of Rome is the reason that the British succession IS Anglican. They've meddled in affairs of state in every country in Europe, because they could and because they believed they had a mandate. They are also major landowners in the world, because devout Christians have left them land in their will. Henry VIII started his own 'Catholic' church with himself at the head, ostensibly because of interference from Rome, but probably so he could get a divorce and also to get control of the 25% of England that the Catholic Church then owned. This condition still pertains. Several of Britain's old wars with its neighbours were fomented by the church to try to bring Britain back into the fold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:59 PM Yes, Gurney, it certainly is a scandal how that nasty Vicar of Rome has interfered with American interests so often. How dare he oppose the American attempts to bring democracy to Iraq? Ten years ago, the previous pontiff assisted in the overthrow of the Marcos Regime that had been so friendly toward America for so long - and after Marcos fell, America lost all its military bases in the Philippines. The list goes on and on, but those are two of the most important times when Rome interfered with American Manifest Destiny. Why, the Pope has even spoken out against the justice brought by capital punishment in America. And it was certainly improper for him to criticize Tony Blair for helping George W. keep the world safe for Democracy. 'Tis a scandal and a shame. Spiritual leaders should deal with spiritual things - they should leave reality to our political leaders. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:24 AM Joe: Are you sure you're American? Gurney: Two words that don't exist in my vocabulary. "Fomented" & "Britain". The latter only exists in the minds of the English and used by the rest of us when we can't be bothered running off the names of whichever countries we're referring to at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jun 07 - 02:07 AM Well, I think the loss of the Papal States in 1870 was one of the best things that could have happened to the papacy. The Pope remained a head of state, but his "state" is 109 acres (44 hectares), with a population under a thousand. So, he can speak out for what he believes is justice, without clouding his view with concern for the interests of his own country. The Pope became a spiritual and moral leader, more than a political player. The Popes are still involved in world affairs, but with a good amount of impartiality. Leo XIII (1878–1903) inaugurated modern Catholic social justice teaching, with preference given to the poor, the oppressed, and to Third World nations. Not every Pope has had sterling performance in the area of world affairs, but they are a far cry better than the politicking popes of the 15th Century. And yeah, I think it's a good idea the pope gave Blair a talking-to. I don't know how much he said to George W. during the American President's recent visit. My impression is that Bush isn't smart enough to bother talking to him. -Joe Offer, yep, I'm an American- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Gurney Date: 25 Jun 07 - 03:15 AM Joe, in case you thought that I was anti-church, I'm not, and I was raised as a Catholic. My explanation was intended to show why the British are leery about Catholic politics. It is based on hard experience, although the worst was long ago. Nor do I support American interests, I live in a country which won't let American warships into it's waters, because they won't declare their armament. I'm just instinctively a democrat (Note the lower-case 'd') and don't like unelected politicians much. Yes, I do know how popes are 'elected.' And yes, I do think religious leaders should stick to religious matters. Jim-Lad, does 'fermented' suit you better? And 'The Government of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland?' We do seem to get a slightly different slant on news here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is the Blair a Catholic? From: Jim Lad Date: 25 Jun 07 - 03:33 AM And why Irish & Scottish Catholics are leery about British Governments! Anything fermented suits me fine. Cheers! Jim |
