BS: Ridiculous propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:57 PM

Why would that be interesting to you, dianavan? Are U.S. and NATO forces deliberately trying to kill Afghani children, as the Taliban seems to be doing? You do think there is a moral equivalence implicated in your question?

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:10 AM

If you think that war is moral, you might consider the death of Iraqi children collateral damage. I'm simply asking for a comparison. Dead is dead. To me there is no difference. Children are killed by both sides. Regardless of how it is done, it is immoral. Only a sanctimonious prick would try to take the moral high ground when it is children who are dying.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:17 AM

No difference morally between deliderately murdering a child, and causing such a death unintentionally?

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 04:26 AM

"Why would I care about the IRA??? The US is not involved in that stupid stuff and never will be and frankly it holds no interest for me."

Yeh sure the IRA got all their arms from Zulu land ...

Which flipping planet are you from

I take it 28 is your IQ and 2 your reading age.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

"If you think that war is moral, you might consider the death of Iraqi children collateral damage. I'm simply asking for a comparison. Dead is dead. To me there is no difference. Children are killed by both sides. Regardless of how it is done, it is immoral. Only a sanctimonious prick would try to take the moral high ground when it is children who are dying."

Yet you do NOT ask for a comparison of the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the Taliban and Al-Queda, as well. THAT is what should be compared to the number killed by U.S. and NATO forces.

But you seem to give tacit approval to the deliberate use of children as human shields, by your insistance on bringing up only those killed by one side.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:15 PM

sure..
an airstrike from a safe distance with the push of a button that kills a number of civilians, children included - while blaming the other side for using civilians as human shields - is much more morally superior than using children as suicide bombers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:26 PM

Throwing a bomb is bad,
Dropping a bomb is good;
Terror, no need to add,
Depends on who's wearing the hood.

-- Roger Woddis, "Ethics for Everyman" (1971)

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:18 AM

Alright.

How about,
"a comparison of the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the Taliban and Al-Queda"(you can include those used as human shields), "to the number killed by U.S. and NATO forces," would be the basis for some meaningful discussion.

I still do not believe that the deaths of children by U.S. and NATO forces are unintentional when war is an intentional act. There is no moral high ground when children die as the result of the actions of adults. To claim some kind of moral high ground is to deny any responsibility.

Its creepy to think that some people think they are not accountable for their actions. Who do you think you are? Is this because God chose you to carry out his wicked will? Listen carefully. I think you may be confusing God for Satan.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM

"How about,
"a comparison of the number of Afghani children who have been killed by the Taliban and Al-Queda"(you can include those used as human shields), "to the number killed by U.S. and NATO forces," would be the basis for some meaningful discussion."

That is a far more meaningful number. Do you happen to know what those numbers are?

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

282RA, you might have been thinking about Afghanistan, the report you quotes undoubtedly was about Afghanistan, but you asked the question generically, free of geographical limitations (otherwise, you could have easily added "there" at the end of your question, to make it specific). And rightly so - because if it can happen any place, it can certainly happen in Afghanistan (or would you dispute that?). So it's hard to understand your subsequent wriggling.

You wanted to make a point, clearly. But that point has not been proven by you. Rather, it has been disproven by the weight of evidence against it, posted in this thread. I'd give up about here, if I were you, and wait for a better example to use for your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:57 AM

QUOTE
"Why would I care about the IRA??? The US is not involved in that stupid stuff and never will be"
UNQUOTE

Ah - but it was! Large amounts of the funding necessary to buy the weapons were raised in the USA and forwarded to the IRA by large numbers of US citizens.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 11:16 AM

Dianavan I agree with you partly.
It is a filthy buisness.
There is only the choice between evils and the hope that you choose the lesser.
Many French civillians including children were killed by the allies in summer 1944.
The French accepted it without bitterness because it was the price for destroying the greater evil of Natzi occupation, with all the suffering and death that went with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM

" if you ever get a war without blood and gore, well I'll be the first to go" ~ Draft Dogder Rag - Phil Ochs

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 12:13 PM

"There is no moral high ground when children die as the result of the actions of adults. To claim some kind of moral high ground is to deny any responsibility.

Its creepy to think that some people think they are not accountable for their actions. Who do you think you are? Is this because God chose you to carry out his wicked will? Listen carefully. I think you may be confusing God for Satan. "



Of course, I am still waiting for you to invest the same level of effort in criticising Canada for it's exporting of asbestos to the Fas East, which is estimated to kill ( over the next 30 years) about 3 million people, as you do about the US killing a few hundreds of thousands in a war.

But I guess that it is far easier to complain about the actions of the US than to act morally about your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM

Here's what you can do to stop the export of asbestos. Many Canadians are concerned and are trying to educate the public and pressure the govt. to put firm controls on the mining industry. You too, bb, can join the effort to stop this practice.

http://www.bacanada.org/main.html

You are the one claiming some kind of moral high ground for accidental death, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:51 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6257594.stm
This is about radicalising children in Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

Fears children are mosque shields

Highlights
Fears grow children are human shields at mosque besieged by Pakistan army

Pakistani forces demolished the Red Mosque's front walls, sources say

At least 24 people have been killed in two days of fighting

Police set up security perimeter around mosque compound last week
   
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Fears are growing that women and children are being used as human shields at a mosque besieged for two days by Pakistani government troops, as hundreds of militant students ignored a plea from their captured leader to surrender.

Pakistan's Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim Khan said the few students who had quit the Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque on Thursday said those inside the mosque believed security forces would try to keep casualties to a minimum.

"A large number of women and children are being held hostage by armed men in a room," Khan told a news conference, adding that the brother of the captured cleric was hiding in a basement with 25 "women hostages."

"Yes, they're using them as human shields, because the people who have come out, they told us that they're telling women and children not to worry because as long you're here forces will not attack us," he said according to Reuters. Watch as the mosque standoff continues »

Cleric Maulana Abdul Aziz made his appeal on state-run TV shortly after he was arrested while trying to slip out of the mosque, disguised in a burqa, the head-to-toe covering worn by some Muslim women.

"For students to stay put at the mosque will only be damaging ... they should either leave, if they can, or surrender," he said.

Heavy explosions and an exchange of gunfire could be heard Thursday evening outside the mosque.

In addition, Pakistani military helicopter gunships were seen circling overhead.

Intelligence sources say nearly 1,000 people remained holed up inside the mosque.

Of those, at least 50 are well-armed hard-liners, according to Pakistan's interior minister. He said negotiations with the students have ended and reiterated demands for their surrender.

More than 1,200 of the students have already surrendered. Earlier in the day, Aziz told state-run TV that about 850 students remained inside -- including children, around 600 women and some 14 men armed with Kalashnikov sub-machineguns.

Pakistani forces have demolished the Red Mosque's front walls and warned students by loudspeaker they had one last chance to surrender before a full attack took place, intelligence and military sources told CNN.

Heavy gunfire from both sides in the conflict, punctuated by loud explosions and the frequent firing of tear gas, erupted shortly before 4 a.m. Thursday (2300 GMT Wednesday).

At least 24 people, including two members of the security forces and one journalist, have been killed in the two days of battles.

Tensions have been simmering between police and the students at the mosque, who are blamed for a string of recent kidnappings of civilians, Chinese nationals and Pakistani police.

The government has been investigating the activities of the mosque, whose students who are demanding sharia, or Islamic law, be instituted in Islamabad.

As part of the clampdown on the mosque compound -- which includes several madrassas, or religious schools -- police set up a security perimeter around the mosque compound last week.

The violence began Tuesday when about 150 militant students attacked a police checkpoint close to the mosque. Police fired tear gas and the students fought back with sticks and guns.

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf earlier announced he would give 5,000 rupees (US $83) to any student who surrendered.

Brigadier Gen. Tareen of the Pakistan Rangers, head of the military operation at the mosque, said the older students inside were using young boys and girls as human shields.

"We will establish writ of the government at any cost and these people don't have any other choice other than to surrender," he said.

The Pakistan Rangers, a paramilitary group, are conducting the operation with the help of the police and the army. The area around the mosque is totally sealed, and nobody is allowed to enter nor leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM

Red Mosque leader attempts to flee in burka
Declan Walsh in Islamabad
Wednesday July 4, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

 
The leader of a pro-Taliban mosque was captured hiding under a burka as he tried to slip through a tightening siege tonight, while hundreds of his radical followers reportedly surrendered to the Pakistani government.

Maulana Abdul Aziz was discovered by a policewoman as she searched students fleeing Lal Masjid, or the Red Mosque, in central Islamabad, where a two-day showdown with the government has killed 16 people and wounded 150.

Local television showed the bearded preacher being bundled into a police car, his face uncovered over a flowing dark cloak. The government claimed that another 1,000 militants, including many woman students, had also abandoned the mosque, enticed by promises of safe passage and 5,000 rupee (£41) in pocket money.

But the siege has not collapsed. Heavily armed militants - estimated to be between 1,500 and 4,000 in number - remained holed up inside the mosque, vowing to become martyrs and fight to the bitter end. Sporadic gunfire erupted as evening fell.

Abdul Aziz's brother, Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi, remains at large, offering to negotiate with the government but saying that talks were "going nowhere".

Lal Masjid shot to public prominence six months ago after indoctrinated students launched an anti-vice campaign that targeted music shop owners and suspected prostitutes in a wealthy Islamabad neighbourhood, just a few streets from the diplomatic quarter and the supreme court.

Abdul Aziz, a radical preacher famed for his fiery Friday sermons, was the spiritual leader of the movement, while his brother Ghazi, a university educated cleric who speaks fluent English, emerged as its main spokesman.

The brothers are openly sympathetic to al-Qaida and boast of having met Osama bin Laden, whom Abdul Aziz has compared to the biblical figure of Abraham. They have also boasted of having hundreds of suicide bombers at their disposal.

Their vigilante campaign -- which involved abducting suspected prostitutes and burning pyres of Hollywood movies - severely embarrassed Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf. But he did nothing, saying that a violent showdown could spark countrywide violence.

The final straw may have been the abduction of seven Chinese employees of a massage parlour, which the militants termed a brothel, last week. The Chinese were released within hours but their government - a key ally of Pakistan - demanded greater security.

After an attack on a government checkpoint on Tuesday, the authorities finally hit back. A five-hour gun battle outside the mosque left 16 people dead. Then early today hundreds of soldiers rolled in, cutting off the electricity and imposing strict curfew on the surrounding neighbourhood.

Tonight parts of central Islamabad resembled a war zone, with machinegun wielding troops patrolling the streets and helicopter gunships buzzing overhead. The neighbourhood around the mosque was isolated by thick coils of barbed wire.
"They have no options but to surrender," said Javed Iqbal Cheema, a government spokesman. "The government is not into dialogue with these clerics."

Gen Musharraf seems intent on flushing out as many students as possible before considering a violent assault on the hard core. "The others want to be martyrs. But I don't want to die," said one young man who escaped today.

Pakistan's information minister, Muhammad Ali Durrani, said only "a few hundred" students were left, although most estimates were higher.

Meanwhile hundreds of students made their way home, escorted by relieved relatives. "We are so relieved, my mother is very worried," said Ziauddin, who had travelled 19 hours by bus from Gilgit to retrieve his 20-year-old sister, Qoresha.

The girl, who had just been released from police custody after escaping in an ambulance, was ambivalent about the experience. "Abdul Aziz and his brother are good men. Whether their actions are good or bad, only they can tell," she said from under a black burka.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,jaded
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM

Read the first post, that's all. The Bush administration? The Democrats voted to not just continue the wars but to SURGE them. This is now a Democrat war, if you're going to blame it on one of the two branches of the single-party system in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:09 PM

Those two parties have a long, loooong history of planning and backing the same wars. Anything they say to the contrary is merely opportunistic pandering for votes whenever they think they can get them. They serve the same corporate masters, and they back the same hidden agendas. The only respect in which they truly differ is that they would far rather see themselves get elected than their partisan opponents, and they will do any dirty thing possible to see that it happens that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:16 AM

http://www.bacanada.org/whoweare.html

Gie us a hand, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:18 AM

"But I guess that it is far easier to complain about the actions of the US than to act morally about your own country."

Some of us ARE acting morally about the actions of Canada. However, that is no reason not to observe and act morally with regard to US actions in the world. Is it now!

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM

Peace,

"Some of us ARE acting morally about the actions of Canada."

I agree 100%.

MOST of us are acting morally about the actions of the US. The problem is always WHAT is the moral action- THAT depends on the person making the judgement.

I happen to think the deliberate targeting of innocents, and use of children as shields in a military conflict is immoral, while the deaths of innocents when one is attacking a military target, while extremely regretable and to be prevented when possible, is not immoral. Dianavan does not, it seems, agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM

"...while the deaths of innocents when one is attacking a military target, while extremely regretable and to be prevented when possible, is not immoral."

You're right, we do not agree. I think the war in Iraq is immoral and nothing justifies the death of children.

To draw a fine line such as you have done, only convinces me that you think that you are in a position to dictate moral circumstances. According to your religion, it may be moral to kill little children under some circumstances. According to my religion, its immoral to kill anyone, especially little children.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

"According to my religion, its immoral to kill anyone, especially little children. "


So, in the case where a little child is being used to prevent you from stopping a nuclear device being used on, say, Mexico City ( lots MORE little children there) YOU would say it is immoral to kill the child out of neccesity to save the larger number of other children?

And I was not talking religion, just MY feelings on morality.


If someone attacks you, YOUR morality would require you to NOT take that person's life, even if it cost you your own, or YOUR child's. Is that the case? I have a LOT of respect for those (Quakers et al) who can actually live that way consistantly, but it is NOT part of MY belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:54 AM

Actually, bb, I am not Quaker. In fact, I would kill in self defense or to protect my children. I would not, however, kill children who are not attacking me. To justify killing children who are already being abused by the enemy is hard to fathom. I don't think the "greatest good" philosophy applies to killing. If so, Hitler could have justified the holocaust because he thought it was for the "greatest good." Morality is subjective but I definitely draw the line at killing innocent children.

Subject: RE: BS: Ridiculous propaganda
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:08 AM

Pardon for child 'suicide bomber'

Story Highlights
Afghan President Karzai pardons 14-year-old would-be suicide bomber

Boy was caught wearing a suicide vest intended to blow up a provincial governor

Boy had been sent by father to a madrassa to learn the Koran
   
KABUL, Afghanistan (Reuters) -- A 14-year-old would-be suicide bomber from Pakistan, caught while on a mission to blow up an Afghan provincial governor, was pardoned on Sunday by President Hamid Karzai.


Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai, pardoned 14-year-old Rafiqullah in a ceremony on Sunday in Kabul.

Taliban insurgents and their al Qaeda allies have launched a wave of suicide attacks against Afghan, NATO and U.S.-led forces in the last two years, seeking to show the government and its Western allies are incapable of providing security.

Most of the victims are Afghan civilians.

The first whiskers of a moustache on his top lip, Rafiqullah stood to one side of the Afghan president, his father, with a full beard, stood to the other, at a ceremony in the capital on Sunday.

Rafiqullah's father, a poor tradesman from South Waziristan in Pakistan, had sent his son to a religious school, or madrassa, to learn the Koran. Later, when he asked where his son was, the teachers there brushed him off, he said.

Then last month, the 14-year-old was caught wearing a suicide vest on a motorbike in the eastern Afghan city of Khost.

"Today we are facing a hard fact, that is a Muslim child was sent to madrassa to learn Islamic subjects, but the enemies of Afghanistan misled him towards suicide and prepared him to die and kill," Karzai told reporters, his arm on the boy's shoulder.

The boy and father bowed their heads as Karzai spoke.

"His family thought their child was learning Islamic studies. That is not his fault, nor his father's, the enemies of Islam wanted him to destroy his life and those of other Muslims. I pardon him and wish him a good life," the president said.

"You are now free and forgiven by the people of Afghanistan," he said turning to the boy and smiling.

Walking to the gates of the presidential palace with his father, Rafiqullah said: "I am very happy that I am pardoned and released."

Afghanistan has accused Pakistan of harboring Taliban and al Qaeda militants and trying to destabilize its neighbor, a charge the Islamabad government denies.

Kabul officials say many of the suicide bombers and Taliban fighters are recruited from impressionable youths in Pakistan's madrassas and sent across the border to kill.

Asked if he had a message for Pakistan, Karzai said: "I have a message, it is a message of peace, forgiveness, a message pleading for better relationships, not cheating the children and encouraging them into terrorism and suicide." E-mail to a friend