BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:31 PM

Kendall--having dealt with all the problems outlined in this thread, and more, I've observed that, as adults, we know that change comes from insight, and so we ask kids to explain what they think cause their problems. When they respond, it is both tempting and easy for us to mistake imitation for introspection.

Spaw's Michael, and other kids with RAD, would doubtlessly be able to give a good account of why they had they problems that they did, but they wouldn't have had any idea at all about what the real problem was.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: open mike
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:36 PM

more off-topic info:the history of scarification in sub saharan africa
http://www.med.uottawa.ca/medweb/hetenyi/ayeni.htm

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:50 PM

Thanks for the links, open mike. That's the kind of thing I was referring to when I mentioned some cultures using scarification, etc. as rituals.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 06:11 PM

It won't help the most severe cases, but try to get depressed (in fact, every) students into occupational education courses. They are not going to have time to be introspective and some of their concerns about the future, their place in society etc. will be overcome with marketable skills. Plus many students, perhaps the depressed ones, perhaps not, are not drawn from the same learning style groups as the teachers and need more hands-on learning. And schools should have a dress code that dresses them pretty standardly so they don't wear shirts with skulls on them etc. School nurses are a good resource if you are lucky enough to have one. But when students are learning to weld, build things, operate medical equipment, type, cook, it is just my observation and opinion that they are far less worried and self-reflective etc. They are doing something, which is what nature intends 15 year olds to be doing, learning the ropes.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 07:52 PM

Yeah, that's right. People need something to do or they get depressed. The same is true of animals. Give an animal all the food it requires and give it absolutely nothing physical to do and it will either sleep all the time or get depressed.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 09:00 PM

I feel certain that this condition will respond positively to certain pharmacological therapies. I had many clients who performed various kinds of self mutillation be it cutting, biting or pulling out ones hair or eyelashes. Talking therapy is slow if not valuable for facing causitive factors while hypnosis using PHS substitute behaviors is very good in the short run.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 10:48 PM

Terrible what happens with idle minds, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: kendall
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM

M.Ted, believe me, she knows why, and her explantion is right on the money.
She got away from her abuser and she now has a good job as a manager in a jewelry company, she's married and has not cut herself in years.

When your headache goes away, you stop taking aspirin, right?

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 12:50 PM

I don't presume to know your granddaughter's situation--I am glad that things have turned out so well for her. My comments are more focussed on those people who think they know what's wrong with everyone else's kids, based on articles they've read in the Sunday supplement--

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 03:40 PM

Interesting - pulling out eyelashes is "sefl-mutilation"?

And what stops it?

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 03:45 PM

Self-mutilation. Adults have shown the way: holes for ear rings, body piercings, eyebrow plucking, etc. However, maybe there's mutilation and then there's mutilation.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Little Robyn
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:02 PM

My daughter cut her arms on Monday night. I thought she'd grown out of that a few years ago (she's 21 now) but something has stirred it up.
She's been into serious hair pulling for the last few years and usually shaves her head and wears a beanie to hide it.
We have taken over the baby (almost 18 months old now) so the pressure had lessened and she seemed to be much happier at the weekend but something has set it off again. She's to see a councellor today.
It's been suggested that she might never 'grow up'.
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 10:40 PM

People suggest a lot of things--it doesn't mean they're right. The fact that she's seeing a counselor today is a sign that she's dealing with this--which is really what growing up is about.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 12:34 PM

You and your daughter have my sympathy, Little Robyn.

I also applaud your love and courage in taking over the care of the baby. I hope that goes well.

I don't understand why someone would remark that she may never grow up. The remark implies that cutting and pulling out one's hair are childish behaviors. Millions and millions of children grow up and do not cut themselves or pull out their hair. Most children have a horror of pain, not a desire for it.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 02:45 PM

Trichotillomania (hair pulling) comes in different forms, most of which have nothing to do with self-mutilation. I've had it sporadically for most of my life. The point of the pulling is that it relieves a congested, itchy sensation - it's like scratching an itch only more so. The sensation of relief from the congestion gets to be somewhat addictive (maybe endorphin involvement) but the congested sensation has to be there to begin with.

And the cause of that sensation is not necessarily very psychological - hair follicles in the affected areas are mostly abnormal (clogged with sheaths of goo and secreting more sebum than usual). Part of it in my case seems to be food intolerance (to eggs) and I can stop an attack of itchy congested feelings in minutes with a dose of antifungal ointment. The fungus is _Malassezia furfur_, which is commonly involved in inflammatory skin conditions. Egg seems to help it grow in some people. Stress does set attacks off; one suggestion is that stress hormones encourage fungal growth.

Antifungals that work for me: ketoconazole (Daktarin Gold) or terbinafine (Lamisil). You need very little of it.

It's EXTREMELY unhelpful to have the condition labelled as something requiring intervention from psychiatrists or behavioural psychologists when staying off eggs and using a tube of over-the-counter jock itch cream will deal with it more effectively than they could ever dream of any of their techniques doing for any disorder at all.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Little Robyn
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 04:15 PM

Thanks guys.
She was doing some of this stuff from the age of about nine, when she was removing eyebrows and eyelashes and chewing her fingernails right down. Actually she's chewed fingernails since she had teeth.
Her school teacher at the time said she was lacking in imagination - the child psychologist we went to said she had an incredible imagination! I knew that.
She left her eyes alone once she went to high school (13 years old here in NZ) and for about a year she settled down. Then the teenage peer influence kicked in, she started smoking (at school), lost her virginity (at school) and started drinking. Most of this we didn't know until later.
Somewhere around 15 she started the knife stuff, when things went wrong. At one stage she was chasing me with a knife and the police had to call.
More sessions with an 'expert' but I didn't feel they sorted any real problems. We had some nice chats and she admitted she enjoyed tormenting me but she was also tormenting herself at the same time.
She blamed school and one teacher as well as general bullying but all the other kids were coping the same stuff.
Again, things settled and when she left school she seemed to mature. I thought she was going to grow up and turn into a normal adult - well, slightly wild teenager but so are all the others around here.
She tried flatting, got pregnant, had an abortion, came home, went flatting again, got pregnant again, came home again and we had a baby. She tried flatting with the baby but that was a disaster and they had to be rescued. During this time she seemed to be coping quite well (with lots of help from us) but she gradually drifted back to staying in bed, listening to loud heavy metal music, dressing like Marilyn Manson and yelling at the baby.
Just over a month back she snapped, she decided she and the baby shouldn't live and she started trying to hurt us as well.   
She spent 3 weeks in the psych ward and then they let her shift into a flat (but she's not allowed to have the baby).
She came home on Saturday to write her CV and was looking for a job. She was doing better than she had done for months.
Then something upset her and she started the cutting again, which I hadn't seen for several years.
She actually said she inflicted physical pain to cover the emotional pain. This was the reaction she had in her teens and it's been suggested that, given her track record, she will probably revert to this behaviour again in the future.
So I'm now being Mum to a delightful little girl, when I had been looking forward to retirement. Grandad's great with her too so we'll cope.
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 11:08 PM

Little Robyn -- my thoughts, sympathies and just plain love are with you. Having lived for years with a recovered cutter, I watch her daily in case I see signs of a recurrence. Her ex boyfriend was killed in Iraq and I - selfishly - could only think that PLEASE let this not be a start of old unhealthy patterns. Thank God with lots of support and a 'Mim watch' going on in our circle to ensure she stayed well, she made it through,

She too was exhibiting 'behaviors...' from a very young age.......her first visit to a counselor was at age 4 when she developed death anxiety and was afraid to go to sleep in case she didn't wake up......

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Claire M
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

Hiya,

I knew someone who cut, but have had no contact with them for years. I've been depressed myself. Still can't listen to certain songs. I switched from this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE4OMnvFDOU
to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE4OMnvFDOU
& feel much better.

Refer to my depression as my black cloud & have written a story about it – a magical spell/song being its cure. I just wish I'd discovered the 2nd song earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,leenia
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM

Hi, Claire. Thanks for your input. I'm glad you are feeling happier.

When I have more time, I'll listen to your links.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM

William Styron wrote a book about his bout with clinical depression. If I remember correctly, it was 'Darkness Visible' or was it "INvisible'? Anyway, it is a fascinating account of an experience with depression by a very good writer.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:59 PM

Watch what they eat. If it is possible to get them to cut back on sugar and white flour, potatoes, etc. that might help. Also, try to add fish oils..if possible make them tuna salads, sandwiches (minimal bread) etc...plus any salmon etc. There are suggestions here and there that people of Irish, Scandinavian, Native American and Russian ancestry (probably others as well) must have fish oils for their brains to function because they had so much fish in their ancient diet that they don't need to manufacture certain fatty acids that others evolved to manufacture from raw material. Look at who has trouble with alcohol, schizophrenia etc...some of the above groups...we need to not just tell people what they might benefit from eating but actually provide it to them..wish we had community kitchens where people could pay modest prices and get vegan or gluten free or high protein or whatever they need. many problems in the world would fade away.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:24 PM

Claire, I just noticed your two links are identical. What's the true link to the second song?

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:03 PM

Nature has a way of removing certain weak-traits from the "gene pool".

cdc.gov/features/vitalsigns/hai/cre/index.html

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Ireland has the greatest incidence of fetal alcohol syndrom followed by France. Parents punishing their children for the sin of the fathers...even unto the third and fourth generation.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: Claire M
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM

Hiya,

Oh sorry, Leeneia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_j5R3BKJ4

Fortunately one of my arms is bad, so if I wanted to do that I couldn't. I'd probably be thrown out of the care home too – there are different places for different problems & they don't deal with that type of thing here – not because they don't want to, it's just not what they specialise in (unless somebody already does that when they move in) – so I dread to think where I'd end up if that started again. Somewhere worse probably.

I stayed in one for Respite before I moved & one lady had the same problems you mention which was why she was there. This place was so bad you'd have to make up an entire new language to describe how bad it actually was.

This isn't the greatest place in the world but it's a lot better than the others.

Said cloud hasn't hit me since my taste reverted either. When I showed somebody said story she was shocked.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM

Hello, Claire. Thanks for the new link, the one to the Pentangle recording. I enjoyed it, and I sure enjoyed it a lot more than the first one. (Listening to popular music, don't you get tired of male singers who feel sorry for themselves? I do.)

I'm glad 'the cloud' hasn't come back. I hope things stay that way.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 11:47 AM

I used to work in a residential group home for teens. Our criteria for acceptance was that the child had been sexually abused and in a minimum of 10 foster homes. To say that these kids were tortured souls is an understatement.

We had a few cutters. One child in particular comes to mind. She was a smart girl, funny, popular with the other kids but she would cut her forearms frequently. We talked about it and she said she did it because all of her pain is in her head..the only time she found any relief was when she caused pain on the outside of her body...took her attention away from the mental anguish. Very sad.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:03 PM

I am a mental health nurse but don't really want to get into my opinion and experience as it is such a complicated issue to address in a handful of sentences. What I would like to do is share a poem with you about the potential consequences of the adult world turning a blind eye to bullying and not speaking up against it.





Silence is Golden



It's not the names thrown by ignorant mouths

Or the drumming fists falling one by one



It is the silence on your lips, it is the stillness of your tongue



It's not that you watched me shielded by my hair and sat alone

Or the knowing hatred of texts sent by twisted thumbs



It is the silence on your lips, it is the stillness of your tongue



It's not the self made ladder of red lines on my arms

As they slowly fade and whiten to crooked rungs



It is the silence on your lips, it is the stillness of your tongue



It's not the cold slap of the train tracks

Or the last breath from my lungs



It is the stillness of your lips, it is the silence on your tongue

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM

Thank you, Lily and Lavengro.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 08:40 PM

Lavengro, thanks for sharing this.

"It's not the self made ladder of red lines on my arms

As they slowly fade and whiten to crooked rungs"

Wow.

I work daily with young women suffering from a variety of stressors, among them trauma, abuse, and often their own mental illness. Cutting is common among them, and I believe it is a way to feel physically what they have no language for emotionally, but cannot leave inside, or set aside.

I never dreamed that my strong, well-adjusted daughter would experiment with this in a dark, dark time in her life... when I thought she was safe under my wing. She has come through on the other side, but the scars and the shadow will always be there.

Blessings on our children, on 'their' children, and on the moms and dads trying to make sense of this.

Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 07:41 PM

So glad to hear that your precious daughter has come through her dark times.

As you say, blessings on all our children and those who love them.