BS: On Same-Sex Marriages

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:03 PM

Damn!! Missed it by that ----->|<----- much!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:08 PM

Thanks for that Joe..."You're a man after my own heart"...as we say in Scotland :0)

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

Thank you Joe for being the voice of reason. It is amazing the number of adults than seem to run to you like children who are not getting their own way.

I simply will not accept that two men or two women should be considered a couple and have the same rights as a normal married couple. They should neither be in charge of children or able to adopt. They are sick and spread disease in many cases.

There that is my opinion and I stand by it.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:06 PM

GUEST,Joy Bringer

They are sick and spread disease in many cases.

Clearly not homophobic in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:12 PM

'They are sick and spread disease in many cases.'

's/he is simply expressing an opinion in a thread about a controversial subject.' ?

Would you allow this for an attack on race or creed?

Whatever Joy Bringer - what a misnomer! - may think I have never requested any of their posts to be deleted - I do so now!

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:26 PM

It seems to matter a great deal to you, "Joy Bringer."

I'm just curious to know why you care so much.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 11:15 PM

Like it or not, "Joy Bringer" has expressed the positions people hold against gay marriage. The California Supreme Court has ruled in favor of gay marriage and thousands of marriages have been performed - but they all will be annulled if an election initiative passes this fall, adding to the state constitution the declaration that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Nearly half of the California electorate supports such a constitutional amendment, that would bar gay marriage for a long, long time. If you were a Californian supporting gay marriage, what would you do to change the minds and hearts of the voters who oppose it - call them homophobic?

I have a friend who was married to a woman, and he had hundreds of male sex partners that he picked up in restrooms or on the street. Hardly what would call a healthy lifestyle. Now he's divorced from his wife and in a stable relationship with a man. If he were to get married to that man, that would be even more stable - and certainly healthier than having hundreds of lovers - no??

I can't say I'm thrilled by the thought of homosexual sex, but it's a fact of life and it doesn't seem that anybody is going to stop it. That being the case, it would seem to me to be far better for society, for homosexual relationships to be stable and faithful, rather than the unbelievable promiscuity that my friend engaged in. If my friend were to get married, would I feel comfortable attending his wedding? I'm not sure yet.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 11:50 PM

....and I stand by my decision. You may not like Joy Bringer's position, but s/he is entitled to it. There is nothing in the posts that constitutes anything other than this person's position.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:03 AM

Right with you there, Big Mick and Joe Offer.

Here's my take on anal intercourse, for what it's worth. I consider it an unnatural act, because that orifice is there to expell toxic waste materials from the body, not to have a penis stuck up it repeatedly. Therefore, I consider anal intercourse when practiced on either a male OR a female recipient to be an unnatural act and probably an unhealthy act for one or both participants. Frequent repetition of the act is liable to damage the sigmoid colon and the musculature around that area, since they were not intended to be subjected to that sort of treatment.

I am surprised, frankly, that anyone finds the idea of anal intercourse appealing (and I do have male friends who apparently do find it appealing...so they tell me...with various female partners). Well, I don't see any reason to condemn them for doing that...because it's their business, not mine, but I do personally find it rather disgusting and I think it's probably unhealthy as well...particularly for the passive partner in the act.

Since anal intercourse is apparently part of the average male homosexual lifestyle (or so I assume)...well, I think they are risking some longterm health problems by that practice. I don't regard that as a moral issue. I regard it strictly as a health issue. As a health issue, I think it's an unwise practice.

But I also believe it's up to people to decide their own health practices for themselves. So while I personally find the practice of anal intercourse disgusting, I see no reason to persecute or condemn other people for willfully engaging in it. Their health conduct is their own business, not mine.

And the marriage thing? Well, I don't give a toot whether gay people get married or not. If they do, fine with me. If they do it in a ceremony, fine with me. If a church sanctifies it, fine with me. It's simply not my business. My business is who I get married to.

I am not the potential victim of another person's marriage, only of my own. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:40 AM

It is so pleasing to see the views of righteous men eventually coming through on this sickening thread. Clearly the moderators will not be swayed by a few excitable older women in their attempt to be seen as modern trendies.

This is a serious subject and people are allowed to express their opinion. This is what we are dealing with here, these people use that silly word "homophobia" in such a way as a warning that Christians who say gay sex is wrong, should face legal judgement. Well tough, I make so secret that I find the thought of two men cuddling up in bed and then entering eachother enough to make me want to vomit. It is sick, unnatural and disgraceful. The media are pushing them down our throats, male tv presenters in pink suits on most nights, two men kissing on television long before the 9.pm watershed.

They are filthy, it is against all our Christian teaching and no one will make me accept them as normal.

Gay rights activists are calling for racial hatred law to be extended to cover "homophobic incidents". That is sly, that is to give them legitimate cover. There is a big difference in it. Unnaturals should not receive special privileges.

In a democratic society people must be free to express their beliefs without fear of censure. This homophobic chant being used by the few running to Joe is used by those with an axe to grind against Christians to silence us.

There has already been negative comments here from "the few" for expressing our sincerely-held religious beliefs."

If such people were listened to here,what would this world be coming to. It is more likely to be them creating incitement of Christian hatred. It pleases me to see decent members now weighting in on this debate. Criticism of practising homosexuality, homosexual acts and their lifestyles will always come from the lips of honest Christian men.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:13 AM

They are filthy, it is against all our Christian teaching and no one will make me accept them as normal.

Gay rights activists are calling for racial hatred law to be extended to cover "homophobic incidents". That is sly, that is to give them legitimate cover. There is a big difference in it. Unnaturals should not receive special privileges.


This kind of stuff shows why 2000 years of Christianity has brought us nothing but war, torture, persecution, hatred and division. Your beliefs aren't a solution to anything, but part of the problem.
This isn't an attack on Christians: merely pointing out that your religious belief is irrelevant to your social beliefs, as for any Christian opinion that says "X is the way to do it", I can find another that says "Don't do X, do Y."

And as you've said elsewhere, you hate fat people too. Is there ANYONE you don't hate?

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:35 AM

"It is so pleasing to see the views of righteous men eventually coming through on this sickening thread."

You've misinterpreted what both Little Hawk and Joe Offer have said. They have not supported your position, merely your right to express it. Joe has said he supports gay marriage if it encourages monogamy; Little Hawk that, no matter how he personally may feel about gay sex, he doesn't consider it his business what other people do in bed - or, in fact, who they marry.

"If such people were listened to here,what would this world be coming to. It is more likely to be them creating incitement of Christian hatred."

Similarly, I am happy for people of whatever religious persuasion to hold their own beliefs; what I object to is this beliefs being used to dictate the way that other people live their lives.

"a few excitable older women in their attempt to be seen as modern trendies."

You have no idea how old I am - bet I'm younger than you. I have had close gay friends since my early teens. I don't need to be perceived as anything. I have strongly-held beliefs, just as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:41 AM

Support for gay marriage seems somewhat thin here, Ruth read out of it whatever you wish, the guys above also seem to find it sick.
I repeat, attempting to be enlightened and in touch with today's younger generation.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:46 AM

I believe my very first post to this thread was linking to a Roy Zimmerman video. I've got another one to link to, which demonstrates the other side of Joy B's contention that "criticism of practising homosexuality, homosexual acts and their lifestyles will always come from the lips of honest Christian men".

Ted Haggard is Completely Heterosexual

(Well, ok, to be fair, you did say "honest" Christian men...)

Oh, and incidentally, a quote from the song:

"What does Leviticus have to say,
Yeah what does it say
About being gay?
To lie with man is an abomination,
Like cursing your parents, trimming your beard, planting wheat and barley in the same furrow, eating pork, wearing polyester and masturbation...
And what did Jesus have to say,
Yeah, what did he say about being gay?
Well...nothin'."

Of course, you can go on and on about how Christians object to homosexuality all you want, but you're still ignoring the main point that Christian doctrine has no legislative authority in the United States, and if you want to ban civil marriages for gays, you're gonna have to come up with another argument.

Why am I always posting to this thread at 2am? I mean, really.

P.S. ake...given that I never needed the screws in the first place, they're holding up fine. Holding up my bookcase, that is. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

I should actually have linked to his later song "Larry Craig is Completely Heterosexual", which updated the song and reflected on the long list of supposedly rabid anti-homosexual politicians who have used their position to deny rights to gay people, all of whom were clandestinely engaging in the very acts they deplored.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:06 AM

Last PS and then I really must get to sleep. One:

Grammar schmammer. My last sentence should have read "supposedly rabid anti-homosexual politicians, all of whom were clandestinely engaging in the very acts they publicly deplored, even as they used their position to deny equal rights to gay people." Clarification is important, eh, Molly?

Two: As I know I've said before, I don't want my comments interpreted as a blanket condemnation of Christianity or any religion, because I'm NOT anti-religious. Hypocrisy, on the other hand, I'll condemn until I'm blue in the face. Using dogma as an excuse to treat people as second-class citizens? Yup.

I also would like to express my respect for Little Hawk and Joe Offer. They don't have to like gay sex, or find it to their taste, in order to believe that gay people are entitled to the same rights as the rest of us. Thanks for expressing a rational and even-handed position, as usual, guys. People like you are why I've hung around the Mudcat for about nine years now.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:33 AM

Holy smokes!... Had a quiet day at the lake, with a client(pro bono), then dinner, and off to the studio...Take a break, check out good ol' Mudcat Forum, and see all of this!!..Wow!
First of all, like to thank Joe and Mick for coming in. Being as this is a Forum, that doesn't particularly set the national agenda, it IS a place to be able to speak..would be even hotter, if some of the 'listeners' would actually listen, and consider another point of view, rather than jumping off the handle, and assaulting opposing posts, and posters, peppering them with accusations, based soley on their emotional re-action. I can't be convinced, nor take seriously, any FACTS can back up, the basis for those replies, whether I was the target of them or not. Perhaps, it was the FACTS that were the target, and anyone presenting FACTS was branded as being 'flamebait' 'troll' 'homophobic' 'woman hater' 'Christian looney' etc etc. ..Because fantasy, has become such an intregal part of sex, I can see why such reactors seem so threatened. They 'feel' their personal fantasy is being attacked, and they are going to lose their little toy!..their refuge from reality. So, they lash out in protest, just like a child who has their toy taken away, when s/he doesn't want to...because they have to go to bed, or clean up their room. But take heart, 'It is always the weak, who accuse others, of their own motives'
It's interesting, sitting here from my point of view, that in counseling, whether me or not, that there is a 'tip off' when a patient/client is having problems with certain issues, that there is a 'clue' that psychologists notice during the sessions, that signals him to pursue a line of diagnosis...and it was certainly evident here. (Love to tell you, but it would blow some of your fragile minds, at this point). Ask me later.
Little Hawk, read your posts. Once again you seem to understand clearly, the issues. Intelligence is the ability to process information...the more crap you don't allow in your filters, the more information you can allow in to process! I have a lot more to expound on, in the post you replied to, but again, ask me later..its full of goodies.
Akenaton, ..You got so much 'woman' in you, that, well..its downright
sexy!..(smirking).
Joy, Took a lot of guts to jump into an anti-Christian issue, and hold forth. Have a little tidbit for you..Remember I posted a link to a song?? Hope you watched it...There is an elderly couple up here, who
I met, who, when I was out of cell phone range, answered their door to me, a stranger, use their land line..On the porch they had their names, which I noticed as Scots/Irish. Being as they were really nice, and warm folks, though apprehensive a little at first, they overcame it, and welcomed me in. Anyway, I had a DVD, and CD of that group...and played her that song, in her CD player...I noticed her eyes swell with tears, and she became actively sobbing, then crying, and said(verbatim) "What are you doing to me?? Look at me..You have no idea what this song is to me, having been married to Ed, for 62 years.. and this says it all..I love him so very much" Perhaps, it was a mixture of jealousy that some people vented at you(?)
Anyway, Peace, Going to go back to the studio but before I go......
"True wisdom starts, when you find someone wiser than you, and listening to that person, the way you want people to listen to you!"

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

Great post Guest from Sanity, yes I watched the video and enjoyed it.

I was glad to see the guys weight in with comments that made sense. The silly comments of those females really aren't worth mentioning, I don't even read them now, and by the lack of replies, I doubt anyone else reads them either !

It simply comes down to that sad old thing of older women attempting to remain hip with a younger generation. They want to show their kids and their friends they are switched on and tuned in. Ipod grannies I call them !

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

'Same-Sex Marriages'

Marriage isn't about sex ... it's about love and commitment.

Then again ... when religion and politiks come into play it's about control, paranoia and scapegoats.

I wish there was more love and commitment in this world ... free from the restraints of religion, and politiks.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

Funny.."JoyBringer" condemns homosexual orientation..

...which everyday has more & more scientific evidence to support it being a natural occurence determined by genetics....

...using religion & the Christian bible,

....which is entirely a matter of belief & opinion and subject to interpretation and 'cherry-picking' of select passages.

It shows how easy it is for this strange tribe we call 'human' to ignore reason and Gerrymander the data in order to 'support' what we believe based on emotion and culture.

I have been acquainted with many homosexual people in my 50 years as an adult, and most of them have been decent, compassionate people... about the same % as NON-homosexual people I have known.

I do know that NONE of them ever advocated the homosexual lifestyle to me, or condemned MY way of life, as "JoyBringer" is doing against them.

There's a fine line between expressing an opinion under the rule of 'free-speech', and attempting thru 'hate speech' to curtail freedoms of others. Allowing gay marriage would not affect the lives of the non-gay one whit....except in their prejudiced little minds.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

"Free speech" is easy. JB has the right to say what he/she likes about gays or overweight people or whatever. And we are equally free to express our opinion of JB.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:50 AM

While I can only sympathize with all the dread that gets mustered up here about the thought of men fucking each other, I would like to add that this, too, is not the issue.

Because who one fucks, and how they fuck them, is a private, not a public issue. It is tragic when the obsessive repression of the Victorian and Puritan legacies gets so heavily dramatized that a counter-movement of pornography and dramatized sluttery has to occur to balance things out. But again, the issue is not about how much people hate the thought (or internet pictures) of homosexual acts.

You do not have to think about how people do or do not fuck, whatsoever. Why wouldl you want to, anyway?   

But as a citizen, you DO have to think about the nature of civic rights under the law, and seek to make them equitable and fair, or you do a disservice to the rule of law.

I would remind you that "making people behave correctly" is not one of the basic freedoms outlined in our Declaration of Independence, nor in our Constitution.

IF you define marriage as between two people who love each other, you are being fair to any two people who believe they want to create amarriage. If you insist on defining it by gender or sexual practice, you are sliding down the slope of moral busybodiness or theocratic fascism. Not good directions to steer.


A

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

Great post, as always, Amos. I don't now, nor have I ever understood how allowing folks the same civil rights I have is threatening to me. Nor do I understand how people who praise "God's plan" and "God's will" can't wrap their minds around the fact that "God" created all life, including homosexuals, so they are part of that plan and will as well. I don't "get" homosexual attraction because I'm not homosexual. But what I do get is friendship and decency, and I can tell you that I have any number of gay and lesbian friends who are as honest, decent, and authentic as any friends that I have. They are wonderful members of the community, honestly and devotedly committed to one another, have all the same problems and hopes that I do, and are simply trying to live a prosperous, happy and fulfilled life. One of the tenets from the Christian book that is probably the most important to me is "Love one another as I have loved you". I am not smart enough to figure out why The Greatest One would have made gay folks, and then condemned them for the way they were made. I guess they will all have to deal with that when they meet. But as for me, I will love my neighbor, enjoy their friendship and company, and fight just as hard for their civil rights as I would hope they would fight for mine.

I remember when a pretty well known musician friend married her longtime companion and I was trying to figure out what the best thing I could say to her was. I told her that I wished her all the happiness that I have with my wife.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

Well, Mick, it is obvious that some folks don't agree that God created gays....(ummm..neither do I...but, my metaphysics differs)...

The point is, most homosexuals can't remember EVER being any other way. They did not 'choose' that life and even those who try cannot alter their basic orientation.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM

I think anyone who deeply understands the body of Christian tradition sees a major turning point in the beginning of the new testament; the fires of punishment, the jealousy and the dissent among tribes being replaced by God's gracious manifestation as Man, and a new set of directives.

It is convenient to forget this change when you are seeking to promulgate differences and dislike.

A

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM

I have ploughed through almost all of this thread. Why is it that the most repulsive and bigoted views are expressed by the allegedly most religious?
And why does Ake not see that he accepts bigotry as justified merely because a lot of people suffer from it?

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

Big Mick -

"I remember when a pretty well known musician friend married her longtime companion and I was trying to figure out what the best thing I could say to her was. I told her that I wished her all the happiness that I have with my wife."

I bet I know who you mean, Mick. If it's who I think...she's a great, great songwriter and she wrote the most wonderful love song to her partner. I got to hear it at this year's Mariposa Festival. That's obviously a case of a deep and abiding love.

********

When one is a youngster growing up it is natural to be a bit scared of the possibility of being "come on to" by an older male. Why? Well, because men are the aggressive parties in sexuality, physically speaking. So if you are smaller and weaker then you are naturally afraid that a bigger and stronger older male might use physical force on you against your will. You're afraid of being raped. This is the reason that both women and younger males fear a possible sexual assault by a male.

People don't fear sexual assault by a female...for obvious physical reasons. She doesn't have the equipment to make an invasive sexual assault. Oh, she could harass you some, all right, if she decided to, but that's more just an annoyance than it is a genuine sexual assault...except in the rarest of cases.

So there is always going to be some fear in society regarding aggressive sexual behaviour by males, correct? And that is one reason that people, specially youngsters, fear male homosexuality.

That fear gets translated into a general level of hostile reaction against the very idea of male homosexuality....whereas there is far less of such a reaction against female homosexuality, because people don't fear it nearly as much. They may be prejudiced against it, but they don't physically fear it.

None of that should be brought to bear on the majority of gay males, because the majority of them do not go around assaulting people...specially when they live in a society where they are allowed to freely have relationships of their own choice with other gay males.

It's when things are totally suppressed and denied in a society that things get way out of hand...as was the case, for instance, in the long and tortured history of the Catholic Church. Official celibacy and denial resulted in a lot of sexual abuse behind closed doors.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:00 PM

Question for "Joy Bringer:"

Given that, no matter how disgusting or sickening you find homosexual relationships, neither you nor all the churches in the world are going to be successful in stamping it out—it has always been here and it will always be here;

And given that you say homosexual activity "spreads disease:

Would it not be better to encourage homosexuals to form committed monogamous relationships?

How say you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

to add to Don's reasonable question...*smile*

I once saw in a restroom stall at my university a nasty message about "hateing gays" and advocating all sorts of mean treatment.

Under it was an answer in a different handwriting: "Oh, you should be happy we have gays...some of those guys are pretty good-looking! Think of the reduced competition for girls for you & me!"

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:52 PM

Well, the young guy in university who hates gays is afraid of them (whether he knows it or not). Mind you, he's also probably afraid of anyone who is much different from him. It's an instinctive reaction in people who are not very analytical thinkers by nature. They fear the unknown and the unusual. When a stupid person is afraid, he tends to resort to violence...the old "fight or flight" syndrome. If he's also afraid of what his peers will think of him if he doesn't openly act out his aggression, then he is ever more prone to violence. This is what leads young men to haze, harass, and beat up anyone whom they regard as outside the acceptable norm of their own peer group...and it has been the bane of "outsiders" of all types since time immemorial.

It was certainly the bane of my existence when I was in school, though I was not gay. I was just unconventional in a lot of other ways. I did not subscribe to the mainstream values. As such, I got more than my share of harassment from the stupidly conventional guys around me. They were out looking for targets of opportunity anyway. Gays are a spectacular target of opportunity for young male hell-raisers.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:00 PM

"Violence is the last resort for the unresourceful "

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:07 PM

Yeah. ;-) You see quite a bit of that in USA foreign policy lately too.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:30 PM

Well, as we say, "Everything that you see in the physical, is a manifestation of something going on in the spiritual"....Yo-ho!!

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:43 PM

Sorry to come across as so apparently dismissive, but my honest reaction to this thread both before and after reading it is the same.

I see marriage as a token of commitment.

It is in my view a way for prospective parents to show respect, via a solemn ceremony, for the importance of ensuring that their future children are not left alone and disadvantaged in life.

The priest says: "so you fancy each other eh? well it's time to face up to what you're getting yourself into, and if you're not ready, it's time to back out. If you are ready then make your vows and stick by each other through thick and thin cos children deserve the best."

Contraception has made it possible to have sex before marriage responsibly.

The modern world has turned marriage into a token of romantic attachment.

And gay people have a right to enjoy that indulgence as much as straight people do.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:48 PM

Most definitely, marriage is a token of commitment. That's why at some level it scares the hell out of most people on the day they finally take the plunge and have the marriage ceremony...if they ever do.

I should think that would apply about equally to both gays and straights.

Romantic attachment? Well, you don't need marriage for that, you just need a strong sense of connection to another person.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:52 PM

"you just need a strong sense of connection to another person"

or a strong attraction ...

Which is now the basis of most marriages - until they disagree on where to put the TV ...

... and then they give up.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:05 PM

Not everybody.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:31 PM

From the annuls people I have known:
   Had the experience of knowing a single father, who won custody of his two children, one boy and one girl, in 1974. At that time, only 2% of men had custody of their children, due to the laws, and the inclination of the courts to award custody of young children, to the mothers. This man, studied the law, to represent his own case, sued the mother for divorce and won,,in California nonetheless! He then proceeded to raise his two children, alone, with not much support from his own family, because at that time there was a stigma associated with divorce..and who knew what to even say to this 'oddball' man raising his two kids, alone. During this time, he re-assured his kids that they should always love their mother, and forgive her, that she made a terrible mistake. She had left the family when the two children were ages 20 months old(the daughter) and the son was 71/2 months old...and still nursing!!!
When the daughter was a young teenager, the father arranged to have her meet with the mother, whom she had not seen in years. It was diagnosed, after the mother left,that she had a major case of post partum depression, though through the years that followed, the mother did not make any attempt to re-connect with her two children, and she had re-married, and gave birth to two more. During the visit, on a walk on the beach, in Santa Barbara, the daughter asked the mother a question that had been an unsettled part of her life, in all her childhood years. Children more often than not have feelings of guilt, when their parents break up..and grow up thinking that somehow it is their fault, and the fact that they love BOTH their parents, and that love is ineffectual to draw them back together (a tragic way to grow up). the conversation was this(once again, verbatim):
"Mom?...Do you think you and Dad will ever get back together again?"
"Oh Jessica, I just can't"
"Why??...Why mom??..I really need to know'
"Well, I just don't have those kinds of feeling for him."
"Feelings?..What feelings?"
"You know,..Feelings like one has when they ..umm..do that"
To which, Jessica stopped walking, in the sand, looked her mother right in the eyes, and with a look as in disbelief, and the tone of voice as if reminding an errant child of something the child 'should have known'..."M-o-o-m!..Love isn't a FEELING!..LOVE IS A FACT, WITH THAT FACT COMES A COMMITMENT. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT COMMITMENT, TH-E-E-E-N YOU GET A FEELING!!!"
....over twenty years ago....never forgot the wisdom of those words!
P.S. The mother never came home.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:32 PM

"You do not have to think about how people do or do not fuck, whatsoever. Why wouldl you want to, anyway?   

"But as a citizen, you DO have to think about the nature of civic rights under the law, and seek to make them equitable and fair, or you do a disservice to the rule of law.

I would remind you that "making people behave correctly" is not one of the basic freedoms outlined in our Declaration of Independence, nor in our Constitution." Amos

Perfectly said. If you want to run for office, Amos, I'll vote for you!

Someone said "Support for gay marriage seems somewhat thin here," Has it occurred to that person that perhaps the main reason why support for civil rights for all people is "thin" on this thread is because of that person's attitude? Talk about disgusting.

"When one is a youngster growing up it is natural to be a bit scared of the possibility of being "come on to" by an older male. Why? Well, because men are the aggressive parties in sexuality, physically speaking. So if you are smaller and weaker then you are naturally afraid that a bigger and stronger older male might use physical force on you against your will. You're afraid of being raped. This is the reason that both women and younger males fear a possible sexual assault by a male." Little Hawk

I'm sure you are right, LH, as far as you go. However, I suspect that another reason why males - young or not - fear contact with gay mals is that they are afraid they would have a physical response and fear that that would mean that they too must be gay.

Before the slapping upside my head begins, let me share a further thought here: In my opinion, perhaps the most potent aphrodisiac is becoming aware that someone else is sexually aroused.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:51 PM

Ebbie, respectfully, young males are not worried about older males 'coming on' to them. That is your projection...Men don't relate to things in that manner. There is an equation that is well known in the psychological community...matter of fact it has been accurately Quoted through the years..."Lust is to a man, as fear is to a woman'.
A young male isn't regarding that...he's usually thinking about a 'pretty girl', or a cute infatuation he is having, to have the time or space to give 'fearing men', a second..or even a first thought, at all. I think just about every man in here can attest to that!
Girls, are coming from a place of insecurities, fears of acceptance, performance, and acceptability...on top of being apprehensive of possible dangers.
Note: This was answered as straight ahead, with no bias or 'value judgment' as possible

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:52 PM

Well, it's been some time now since I posted my question to "Joy Bringer," (above, 28 Jul 08 - 04:00 p.m.) and he/she/it appears to have chosen to ignore it. He/she/it is spending his/her/its time over on the "Responding to Hate Speech" thread, giving the folks there some juicy examples of hate speech for them to either respond or not respond to.

Don Firth

P. S. Unfortunately, hate speech doesn't always stop with speech.

In today's news.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:52 PM

lol You, sir, are ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:00 PM

...Oh, unless of course the male child's mind is being filled with his mother's fears..in which case, he needs to be around his father...

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM

GfS. . . .

What!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:21 PM

NEWS FLASH: Young men aren't thinking of growing up to be mothers!

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:40 PM

I repeat my post just above. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

Ebbie - "I suspect that another reason why males - young or not - fear contact with gay mals is that they are afraid they would have a physical response and fear that that would mean that they too must be gay."

In some cases that may indeed be so, Ebbie. I couldn't say in how many cases. No idea, really. I certainly never had any such fears myself, but I guess some males do. I think, however, that what mainly scares most young males about homosexuality is simply that it's outside of the boundaries of how they are consciously trying to "define" themselves. They're trying to build a young adult identity at that point, trying to leave childhood behind, and working hard to fit into their new identity, and it's a somewhat fragile identity. They're trying to become comfortable in their own skins and figure out how to deal with girls, courtship, etc. They naturally feel threatened by anything that leads off in other directions from the identity they are imagining for themselves.

That's why they're also scared to dress differently from their peers, talk differently from their peers, or do anything else that's different from their peers. That's why they insult anyone who does something different by calling him "gay". They don't really mean he's homosexual, usually, they just mean that he's not doing it "the usual way", whatever "the usual way" is.

Young men are extreme conformists within their own age group, and they feel deeply threatened by those who don't conform. Gays don't conform to the mainstream sexual values.

I don't think there's much more to it than that.

Now, you also said: "Before the slapping upside my head begins, let me share a further thought here: In my opinion, perhaps the most potent aphrodisiac is becoming aware that someone else is sexually aroused."

Seriously???? Well, if I can speak for myself here...realizing that someone else is sexually aroused toward me only seems to work for me if I am already attracted to that person or if I would normally find them quite sexually attractive regardless. I don't find men attractive in that way, period...and it would definitely creep me out if I realized that a man was sexually attracted to me. I wouldn't mind if he was emotionally fond of me and said so...I wouldn't even mind if he had a romantic interest in me and just calmly told me about it (as one friend did once over a cup of coffee...and I'd had no idea he was gay until that moment). No big deal. But if I felt a sudden wave of physical lust emanating from another man toward me (and one does feel stuff like that)...it would definitely creep me out. I don't get turned on when I'm creeped out.

And guess what? I've felt waves of lust like that from women too...and if they were women I was not necessarily attracted to (of which there are plenty), then I did not find it to be an aphrodisiac at all...I found it to be something that made me feel uncomfortable, made me want to step back and put some distance between me and her. Sex is not a "casual" matter to me. It's a serious matter of real intimacy. Do you know how many people I want to get that intimate with? Very few.

Maybe I'm shy. Or maybe I'm just a lot choosier than some. ;-) I've always believed in love.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM

None of which speaks to the question that has been repeatedly avoided: why should two people have civil rights denied two other equally legal individuals because, solely, of their sexual orientation? Why should that single attribute make them a separate, lower class of citizen?

I honestly don't get the reasoning. Why should their civil rights be put aside because people who don't know them decide they dislike them?

That strikes me as really, really dumb.



A

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:47 PM

"why should two people have civil rights denied to other equally legal individuals because, solely, of their sexual orientation? Why should that single attribute make them a separate, lower class of citizen?"

No reason I can think of, Amos.

I was simply discussing some other stuff I'm interested in, and replying to Ebbie.

"Why should their civil rights be put aside because people who don't know them decide they dislike them? That strikes me as really, really dumb."

Yessir. It is really dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: On Same-Sex Marriages
From: GUEST,lansing
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 12:25 AM

i am following this thread with very curious interest. i noticed something in the tone of little hawk's rather tender reply to ebbie. in an earlier post, gfs mentioned a 'tip off' thing. gfs, when you come back on and read this, could you please elaborate on that. i'm wondering if i think i see it too, but not sure. i promise not to argue or jump on you. i think you are far more learned in this issue than you're getting credit for. thank you