BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration

Subject: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:18 PM

I'm trying to find good, relatively unbiased sources of information on how to interpret the various dates we find on packaged or canned foods, medicines, etc.

Some people I deal with in an in-home caregiver setting are overzealous when it comes to throwing food (and vitamins, etc.) away. Part of that seems to stem from their comprehension of English being only marginal, but part of it seems to be a more widespread confusion about what the various dates mean.

Sometimes their misunderstanding is so severe that they want to throw out an unopened carton of yogurt or package of cheese on Sept. 5 because the "sell-by" date on the carton says "Sept. 4."   They think that's an expiration date and that the product is unsafe the following day. I've also known some of these folks to throw out an unopened package of dried pasta because it was a few months old. As unnecessary as this may be, it would not matter that much if it were their own food (money) they were discarding, but the woman they (we) are working for does not like her food being wasted just because someone is overly cautious or does not understand what those dates mean.

I would like to find some concise, easy-to-read definitions and explanations of terms such as "sell by," "packed on," "best by," "use by," "expires on," etc.    Sometimes info given from the manufacturers errs in the direction of overcaution, partly because they would of course love to sell more product.   And both the manufacturers and some governmental agencies (e.g., Dept of Health) may tend toward overcaution for fear of liability* or just plain 'regulation-gone-rampant'. (E.g., I've known Depts of Health in some locales to require restaurants to throw out still-wrapped packages of crackers in the containers on tables, whether there's any reason to think they've been touched or not, whenever the table is cleared for new customers.   And public schools in the US no longer allow people to bring home-baked goods to share, for "health and safety reasons.")

What I'm looking for is information that's tied to common sense, as well a scientific info, and that weighs the value of not being wasteful as well as the value of safety.

Here are some of the things I've been told by such people as physicians, pharmacists, nutritionists, and others who are in the know about food and drug safety:

Sell-by date:   
The primary reason for this is to facilitate stores' rotation of stock.   In and of itself, it says little about whether or to what extent the product is safe or nutritionally valuable. Some products, e.g., milk, generally "last" 5 to 7 days if properly refrigerated (longer if unopened than after opening). Others, e.g., cheese, may last weeks. Canned goods may last 1 to 10 years, depending on what kind of food it is and the storage conditions.   So much depends on what type of food and how it's stored (temp., humidity).

Stores often mark down or throw out products at or shortly before the "sell by" date, sometimes by state law, but consumers may actually use them long after that.

Packed-on date:
Many canned goods are stamped with the date on which they were packed. Obviously, if that date were misconstrued as an "expiration date," a helluva lot of food would be wasted.

Best-by date:
This is supposed to mean some combination of "tastes best," "has most nutritional value," and "is safest to consume," but in most cases it does not mean the product is worthless or dangerous a few weeks (maybe even months) after that date.    A lot of the time, it means a product (e.g., packaged mac and cheese) will taste best if used by that date. But the food could be consumed long after that date with no ill effects on health.

Use-by date:
This one is supposed to be a strong recommendation to use the product, if possible, by that date, and it seems to mean that the nutritional value and/or safety of the product may deteriorate fairly soon after that date. But safety is much less an issue with some kinds of food (e.g., dried rice or pasta) than others (e.g., meat).

Expiration date:
For medicines, this is supposed to mean you'd better use it by that date or it may be either unsafe or ineffective.   But physicians that I know tell me that some meds (e.g., aspirin) may become dangerous if they're too old, others (e.g., antibiotics) lose potency after a while, and others (e.g., guafenicine or antihistamines) may be quite usable for months, even a year or two after the expiration date.   What's confusing is that the same term is used for those various kinds of products.

My concern, re the work situation, is that just my say-so probably won't convince those who are toss-it-out happy; I need authoritative sources on what these terms mean.

Naturally, I'd also like to refine and expand my own understanding of when it's safe to use a food or medicine product beyond a specified product date and when it's really wise to discard it.

PS:
One thing that some people ignore is that instructions re some of these dates say "use OR FREEZE by" ... .    Of course, if the product has been stored improperly, it may "go bad" long before the "expiration date," too.

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these issues, as well as finding some really good consumer-oriented sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Becca72
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:32 PM

I would wonder if the FDA website has definitions for these terms..

I also think it would be most effective to have the woman for whom you work to tell these other staff members to get her approval before throwing anything out. She has the power to hire and fire and they'd more likely listen to her than you or something you printed off the web.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:51 PM

It is not clear which country the original post refers to, though from the context it seems to be the US. I am not familiar with US regulations, but I am with UK regulations as I used to teach food safety before I retired so I have added some information below.

Information on food labelling and other food safety issues can be found on the Food Standards Agency's website (click here for the labelling page). The information below has been extracted from the FSA website.

Basically foods in the UK are required to display one of two expiry dates.

Best before which is appropriate to most foods and indicates the period for which a food can reasonably be expected to retain its optimum condition (eg it will not be stale).

Use by is the required form of date mark only for those foods which are highly perishable from a microbiological point of view and which will have a product life after manufacture of a relatively short period, after which their consumption would present a risk of food poisoning.

This is pretty much standard throughout the EU as food safety rules across the EU have been harmonised in recent years.

I did a hunt around the FDA website and eventually tracked down the relevant page here. (The information is actually on the USDA website). The term "Use By" seems to mean much the same as it does here in the UK. In general it is wise to dispose of foods past their "Use By" dates on safety grounds and to dispose of foods past the "Best Before" date on quality grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:56 PM

I think I checked the FDA site, but it was only partially helpful. IIRC, it did distinguish "use by" date from "sell by" date, but it didn't clarify much about what "use by" really means. Does it mean the product is unsafe to use the day after that date or just that its nutritional value and maybe safety decline after that date.   I think they took what I consider an unnecessarily 'conservative' stance, such as insinuating that maybe you should throw out a product on Sept. 15 if the "use by" date was Sept. 14 -- no matter what the product was or how it was stored.
In other words, it wasn't very detailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:03 PM

I think I checked the FDA site, but it was only partially helpful. IIRC, it did distinguish "use by" date from "sell by" date, but it didn't clarify much about what "use by" really means. Does it mean the product is unsafe to use the day after that date or just that its nutritional value and maybe safety decline after that date.   I think they took what I consider an unnecessarily 'conservative' stance, such as insinuating that maybe you should throw out a product on Sept. 15 if the "use by" date was Sept. 14 -- no matter what the product was or how it was stored.
In other words, it wasn't very detailed.

As for the caregivers and the women who care for her, she is 90 and I think at least a couple of the caregivers (especially the ones who cannot converse with her in any detail in English) think they are doing "what's best for her" by disregarding her instructions about throwing things out.   She has told me and a couple others that she wants people to check with her before throwing things out, but at least one caregiver had disregarded that instruction. I think as long as that caregiver is thoroughly convinced that food "has expired" a month or two after it's put in the freezer, 3 days after a package has been opened and put in the fridge, or a few days after the "sell by" or "best by" date on a package, she will probably continue to act on what she thinks is best for the client. Same goes for one other caregiver whose English is marginal.   I think that educating them on what these various dates really mean would go a long way -- provided the information came from a source they trusted, such as a scientific publication.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:09 PM

Sorry for the partial duplication.

Tootler, what you said regarding "use by" vs. "best by" jibes pretty much with my understanding. The only place where I might disagree - a matter of judgment - is on whether a "stale" cookie or package of macaroni necessarily needs to be thrown out. I think that depends partly on what your budget is like, for instance.   Sometimes the main disadvantage to eating "stale" food is that it doesn't taste fresh, but with some foods "stale" may mean "rancid oils."

The important thing I want to communicate to the other caregivers is that not all product dates on packages are "best by" or "use by" dates, and they often do not mean the product needs to be discarded soon after that date.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:31 PM

I regularly buy such food.

I find that buying whole lettuces is wasteful as I don't; get to eat them before they expire in the fridge. We have 'packed in nitrogen' 'salads' which i often buy for 1/2 or less the normal price - they often are a day or 2 before the 'use by' date - kept in the fridge I but enough to last several day - anything up to a week - if unopened they will brown slightly after several days. They don't affec.. affec.. affec.. affect me.

Dried foods - such as pasta, sugar tea bags will last for years if kept in a sealed container in a cool dry dark place.

Teas bags WILL go stale though... :-)

Honey cannot 'go off' - it used to be used as a wound dressing from Roman times - some things cannot 'go off' as bacteria need moisture to breed - 'preserving' with salt, sugar, honey, drying has worked for centuries - it's only the frenzy of 'refrigeration' that has brainwashed people.

Canned good - depends on the content - some goods will go off - they may not be totally sterile - but canned soups, baked beans, spag, etc will last for years. Expeditions to darkest Africa used to depend on this...

Bread, will last in the freezer for months.

Butter, cheese, and the like will not freeze, but will last longer in the freezer - cheese will change texture, etc



I'd say tell the lady if the 'helpers insist on 'un-helping' her that she tell them that perhaps she will start looking for other help as they ARE WASTING HER MONEY.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:42 PM

As for stale food - it may not be the best for you, but it can still keep you alive

Just ask British Sailors from the 'sail' days a few centuries ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:59 PM

Cheese cannot go off - It starts off 'off'! Cut away the mould and eat it!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:59 PM

Using that well known term "common sense" as a criterion, Genie, your original post seems to have got it right and I suspect you'll have shuffled off the mortal coil before getting better definitions out of officialdom.

Some responses that come to mind include

Many years ago I had the need to look up info on the storage of milk. Details are hazy but I seem to recall that fresh (pasteurised but prior to the current fad for homogenisation) could be stored in a fridge and still be drinkable for a week. However, the vitamins in it would denature rapidly and not be worth the candle after about 2.5 days; the casein would last more or les forever. The relative importance of such variables would be used in any calculations of the dates displayed on the packing. Of course you could freeze milk; while it might be useable for yonks (because of the butterfat, sugar and casein contents) the vitamins would have been rendered useless. leaving the milk useful for flavouring coffee but with little other value.

More recently (but still many years ago) I spent a year at Mawson, Antarctica. In his second trip to the Antarctic Douglas Mawson had struggled back from a sledging journey just in time to see the ship leaving to return to Oz; he spent most of the next year at the base (Commonwealth Bay) with some others who'd remained in case his party had been delayed and they were all picked up the following summer.

The point of that anecdote is that Australia's Antarctic Division has, ever since, always maintained a full years' provisions in reserve at each of its mainland bases. We took down a year's worth of food, stacked it in the various storage locations and, for our year, lived on what had been taken down by the previous year's expeditioners the summer before. That meant that every item was at least a year old at the beginning of our start on it. Given the nature of logistics, some of the nonperishables might have been in storage for six months before leaving Australia. We used lots of multivitamin tablets.

So I've always taken my own view of the dates displayed on food packages, helped along with the sort of training one gets with a good university education in biological sciences. Fooles is right with his "'preserving' with salt, sugar, honey, drying has worked for centuries - it's only the frenzy of 'refrigeration' that has brainwashed people" but there are caveats because of the availability of refrigeration in wealthy communities.

For salt or sugar to be effective at inhibiting bacterial and fungal growth they need to be present at levels high enough for the osmotic gradient to draw water out of any unwanted cells that might otherwise grow there. Such levels of salt are frowned upon by cardiologists and the "low carb" fashionistas wax ridiculously eloquent over the required levels of sugars. This means that items that used to be storable 'forever' when containing traditional levels of salt or sugar now need to be refrigerated if you want to beat the bugs to the goodies.

Good luck!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: pattyClink
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 09:30 AM

Genie, I don't know any good sources of information.   I hope you can find some good guidelines at the facility so they can treat categories differently.

As for them throwing out yogurts on the day stamped, they may have had experiences like me. I have had a lot of milk containers go bad literally on the day stamped, nasty experience to take a swig. They may also have been scarred by such events!

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 09:31 AM

I'm long past my sell by date, but I can still get fresh given the chance!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: skipy
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 09:33 AM

I found 24 cans of Guinness in a skip, they where 4 years out of date!
I drank them all!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:50 PM

With some exceptions, foods in the UK have to carry either a "Use By" or a "Best Before" date.

Foods with a "Best Before" date will still be safe to eat after that date, but there is no guarantee of their quality - they may have gone stale but you are unlikely to make yourself ill.

If you eat foods with a "Use By" date after that date, there is an increasing risk of microbiological contamination and hence of food poisoning. At home we will often eat foods just out of their Use by date after giving them a good sniff and checking for signs of "furring". At home you decide your own level of risk. However if you are working in a care home, the risk is not worth taking. If you dish up foods out of their use by date and any residents come down with food poisoning, you are in serious trouble. Certainly in the UK you risk being prosecuted under the Food Safety Act.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:59 PM

Patty, I agree that products like meat and dairy can go bad before the "sell by date." But that can happen LONG before the sell-by date if a product like milk, meat, or mayonnaise (opened) is left in temperature above 60º for several hours.

That's one reason why I don't think dates themselves should be relied on too much.   
Eggs, for example, may be really "fresh" for only a few weeks after they are laid, since the farms are required by the FDA to wash off the natural protective covering that the hen puts on them when she lays them.*   But you can get a good idea of how fresh an egg is by looking at how high the yolk stands up.   And when an egg has gone bad, it's usually not hard to tell.   But in the case of dairy products, there's a huge difference between how long milk lasts and how long cheese (e.g., cheddar, blue) or something with live cultures like yogurt does, yet the labelling often tends to be similar.

How safe something is may also depend on whether you're eating it 'raw' or using it in cooking (at a very high temperature).

There are also some products that basically never "spoil" due to age.   Honey is the best example, but sugar also doesn't "go bad" the way, say, flour or oil will.

What I'd really like is a good index of foods and food storage guidelines for various kinds of foods and various methods of preservation (e.g., refrigeration, drying, canning).



*If that covering is left intact, eggs can remain safe and edible for many weeks WITHOUT refrigeration and for months with it, but you're not allowed to leave it on when you sell eggs commercially, because you can't assume the consumer knows to properly wash the egg right before cracking it.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:22 PM

Foolestroupe, you're basically on the same wavelength as I am.

I too regularly buy such food. The church I go to regularly gets a van-full of "day-old" bread and pastries from local bakeries (e.g., Great Harvest) and stores (e.g., Safeway), which we distribute to various agencies like Meals On Wheels and homeless shelters, with whatever is left over being made available to people who come to the church for a community supper, church, or a Narcotics Anonymous meeting.   I've often used some of the Great Harvest whole-wheat loaves a week or two after the "sell-by" date if it's been refrigerated or much, much longer if it's been frozen.   Not only does it taste good, but I've never found any ill effects. I also love buying cans and packages that are marked down for quick sale. The only ones where I'm a bit wary are vitamins (if really old) or things like aspirin.   

I've also been told by reliable sources that even high-quality restaurants will cut the mold off of a block of cheese and keep the rest rather than throw out the whole block because the outer portion gets moldy.

Yes, it's been my experience that ried foods - such as pasta, sugar tea bags will last for years if kept in a sealed container in a cool dry dark place.   If you can keep the mice and the mealy bugs away from them, they will last a long time and be safe.

Teas and coffee go stale, yes, but it won't hurt you if you drink stale tea (or coffee).

And yes, honey cannot 'go off' - it used to be used as a wound dressing from Roman times - some things cannot 'go off' as bacteria need moisture to breed - 'preserving' with salt, sugar, honey, drying has worked for centuries - it's only the frenzy of 'refrigeration' that has brainwashed people.

This is the kind of thing that concerns me where the overzealous caregivers are concerned. I can just see one or two of them throwing out this woman's honey, sugar, salt, etc., because it's "expired." (Sigh.)

As for canned goods, you can often tell if it's gone bad by looking for a 'swollen' lid or leakage around the seams.   And I've heard that some fruits and veggies, e.g., tomatoes, may present a risk (of botulism?) if kept too long, unless they are canned with a proper amount of ascorbic acid.   But, yes, the idea of canning is to preserve things for years.

Frozen foods may develop "freezer burn" if kept too long, but that's not really a health hazard. It's more a matter of them losing moisture, not tasting great, and losing some of their vitamin potency.

As for telling my client to put her foot down with the other caregivers, it's a bit more complicated than that. She does hate it when they waste her money, but she has some emotional ties to at least one of the throw-away-happy ones, and she also often doesn't know who threw what out.

I'm still hoping to be able to educate the caregivers at least to the point where they won't be throwing away sugar and honey, bread that's been in the fridge a week with no signs of spoilage, milk three days after it's bought, or perfectly good swiss cheese that has a "sell by" date a week ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:48 AM

One thing I have wondered about- is the Use By: date sometimes an arbitrary one? For instance, say that batteries are stamped 'Expiration Date July 2009' might that not mean that they were packed in July 2006 and they are expected to last three years?

That could also be true of date-stamped canned goods, pastas, aspirin and the like.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:48 AM

I know of one rather arbitrary arbitration date.   It's the expiration date on bottles of "Melaleuca Oil" - the brand of melaleuca, or "tea tree", oil produced and marketed by Melaleuca, Inc. There has been no "expiration" date established for the melaleuca oil (at least of the quality of their product) - i.e., the oil seems to last almost indefinitely. But the company put a date on the product "to encourage people to use it" rather than just keeping it around (for emergencies?).   I can understand why a date would help "rotate" the stock, but that oil is too expensive to be throwing it away unnecessarily just because of some arbitrary date on the bottle.   I'm inclined to think that many "sell by" or "use by" or "expiration" dates on products are overly cautious/conservative - i.e., to bend over backwards to avoid stale or less potent products to be consumed but with little concern about products being unnecessarily thrown out.

Again, I'd really like good information on which products are really dangerous and under what conditions. I have some of that, e.g., re fresh meat (especially chicken), milk, mayonnaise, egg salad, but there are many products about which I'm still kind of in the dark.

Back in my grandma's day, canned goods were kept in the "cellar," where it was quite dry and not over about 50 degrees.   She also kept tomatoes, apples, potatoes, and other veggies from the garden there, packed in straw, and they would last all winter.   Our modern pantries are seldom as good for food storage.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 03:01 AM

I have 'lived without a fridge' for months at a time - due to financial reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 03:56 AM

Genie, your most recent post reminded me of some other observations.

Vegetable oils exposed to oxygen do, ultimately, get oxidised and we notice it in many as becoming "rancid". You may well be right about Melaleuca Inc's use of an expiration date to increase turnover rates but they may have also been motivated in part by avoidance of such notions. I suspect tea tree oil would take more than most people's lifetimes to go "off" but don't know any data. However, if you restrict the access of oxygen to an oil you effectively retard oxidisation. In a glass bottle the process would commence as soon as it was opened and more flexible bottles (usually plastics of one sort or another) are likely to have fat-soluble plasticisers that could dissolve into the oil; keeping oxygen away from the oil is likely to be tricky.

Concerning "fresh meat", traditional butchers that I've yarned with, over the years, can be quite dismissive of "housewives who want only the freshest of meat". Pardon the sexism but that was how it was usually expressed by these blokes. They weren't referring to chicken, fish or "offal" (the things like liver, brains and sweetmeats that "modern" sensitivities disparage); they were referring to good muscle tissue from beasts that produce red meat.

They maintained that the best steaks came from carcases that had been chilled (but not frozen) and hung for at least six months; Aberdeen Angus was (at the time) their preferred breed and the hanging was to allow the enzymes in the muscle fibres to have enough time for autolysis to properly tenderise the meat. A carcase that has been so treated will gradually go black on the outside and this has to be cut off and discarded, which takes time, higher skill levels, and diverts some tissue from the steak part of the food chain. These requirements, plus the overheads required for such longterm storage, mean that such steaks are rather more expensive than the cuts you buy in the supermarket (which may have been prepared with less attention to the detail required for "longterm" storage.

But the meat we had down at Mawson (admittedly hung in the "freezer where it could be kept "warmer" than outside with the ice) was lovely and tender and suffered no "freezer burn". And the comment above yours, about the storage of eggs, reminded me that when I was duty cook in September of that year I asked the real cook how many eggs we had to last until the Nella Dan returned. 1200 dozen was his answer, so I cooked omelettes for the 28 of us that Sunday. I have no idea how many we'd taken down but I asked him how many had gone off since they'd arrived (we'd left Oz in December; "Six!" was his reply. And they'd been kept in the "warm store", effectively at the same temperature as the main compartment of an ordinary domestic fridge. The main risk for eggs in fridges is they dry out due to the low humidity; the warm store had controlled humidity which kept them (and other things) from drying out.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:10 AM

When I was working in a cheese shop back in the 70's, every evening we would wipe down the cheeses with a dilute bleach solution. No mold ever grew in our shop and no one ever complained about the taste. The "active" cheeses were kept at about 45 - 50 F.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 03:54 PM

Good info, EB.

Rowan, you made some excellent points about oils, especially the point about what a difference it can make whether the container has been opened or not and whether the bottle is glass or plastic.

(You know what's really odd? The same 2 or 3 caregivers who are so eager to throw out leftover thanksgiving turkey because it's been in the fridge 2 or 3 days or to discard a unopened canned cranberry sauce because the date on the can is 3 years past -- those same caregivers keep the canola oil in the cupboard, unrefrigerated, after it's been opened.   I always keep opened oils in the fridge unless they're likely to be used up within a month or so.)

As for Melaleuca Oil, the reason it has virtually no expiration time is that it contains compounds that are antiseptic and antifungal. "Tea tree oil" is not comparable to, say, olive oil or canola oil or other vegetable oils. For one thing, it's not very 'greasy,' because it's also a solvent, which will penetrate all the layers of the skin, leaving no oily residue.   (Like other extracts derived from plants, not all "tea tree oils" are the same in composition, because of the particular plants used, the manufacturing processes, etc. The Australian government has quality standards for labelling the oil "melaleuca oil," and not all "tea tree" oils meet those standards -- e.g., some are cut with other oils --, so my comments are limited to the brand of "Melaleuca Oil" that I know the most about. But the main reason I mentioned that oil is that the story makes me wonder how many other products have unnecessary "expiration dates" on them - or dates that are a lot earlier than is necessary for nutritional, medicinal, or safety reasons.   (Does honey come with "use by" dates?)

I also appreciate your butcher stories. One way of "tenderizing" meat is to hang it, open, in the fridge for several days. Also, doesn't "meat tenderizer" work, essentially, by speeding up the decomposition of meat?

I thought that if you cook meat to the recommended internal temperature, even things like salmonella are killed. And if the food contains a toxic substance that won't be killed by cooking, would that food be a lot safer at 3 days old than at 3 weeks?

Thanks, especially, for these reports:
[[[The butchers] maintained that the best steaks came from carcases that had been chilled (but not frozen) and hung for at least six months; Aberdeen Angus was (at the time) their preferred breed and the hanging was to allow the enzymes in the muscle fibres to have enough time for autolysis to properly tenderise the meat. A carcase that has been so treated will gradually go black on the outside and this has to be cut off and discarded, which takes time, higher skill levels, and diverts some tissue from the steak part of the food chain. These requirements, plus the overheads required for such longterm storage, mean that such steaks are rather more expensive than the cuts you buy in the supermarket (which may have been prepared with less attention to the detail required for "longterm" storage.]]

And the comment above yours, about the storage of eggs, reminded me that when I was duty cook in September of that year I asked the real cook how many eggs we had to last until the Nella Dan returned. 1200 dozen was his answer, so I cooked omelettes for the 28 of us that Sunday. I have no idea how many we'd taken down but I asked him how many had gone off since they'd arrived (we'd left Oz in December; "Six!" was his reply. And they'd been kept in the "warm store", effectively at the same temperature as the main compartment of an ordinary domestic fridge. The main risk for eggs in fridges is they dry out due to the low humidity; the warm store had controlled humidity which kept them (and other things) from drying out.]]

I do believe we in the US have become a bit paranoid about a lot of things, food safety being just one area.   People in Europe and most other places in the world eat food that's less packaged, less refrigerated, and not so readily discarded and some of those other countries have greater longevity and generally better health than we Yanks do.
On the other hand, there do seem to be some foods and meds-- e.g., chicken and aspirin, even bread -- that have precautions about age, storage, and/or preparation that it's important to heed.   But a lot of the time, the danger comes from things like food handlers not washing their hands properly or the common-sense handling precautions not having been followed. E.g., grocery stores have been known to drop meat on the floor, pick it up and pakage it for sale; take eggs from an outdated carton and put them into a carton with fresher eggs and a new date; leave milk sitting outside of the refrigerated area for hours at a time; etc.   

That's why the product-specific info is important, as well as the info that looks at the whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 07:22 PM

Genie, thanks for the appreciation. I didn't really mean to argue against the notion of expiry dates (however described), but to inject some experiences and how a bit of knowledge of relevant biology and culinary traditions can be applied.   What I do at home for purely domestic and personal purposes isn't subject to much in the way of statute law but if I do for outsiders or in the workplace the whole panoply of the law applies, even outside the (reputedly litigious) USA.

And I do have a relevant comment about tea tree oils. Whatever it says on the outside of the packaging, there may be no intrinsic difference between tea tree oil and melaleuca oil, because "Tea tree" is the common name (in English) for all the species of the genus Leptospermum and many species of the genus Melaleuca. And there's quite a few species in both genera. The species that has been marketed (dare I say "hyped") is Melaleuca scoparia, commonly called "Manuka" in English, from its common name in NZ, but it also occurs in Oz. [There was a thread not long ago on the pronunciation of manuka and the properties of various honeys and tea tree oils.] There are oils on the market that have been made from other melaleucas (M. squarrosa is one example) and from various Leptospermum species. There have even been some oils from Eucalyptus species marketed as having antibiotic/antiseptic properties. All three genera are members of the family Myrtaceae so it's no surprise that essential oils from various such species should share such properties.

Before the Botany Library foyer at Melbourne Uni was refurbished in the early 60s there was a row of about 30 "sealed" glass cylinders ~4" in diameter and ~18" high; each was named with a species of some member of the Myrtaceae and was almost full of oil from that species. It was the result of some project on economic botany that had been done in the 1930s and the collection had been displayed there ever since. Every one of them had oxidised to some extent and nobody was prepared to guarantee their biological properties. They all got discarded while my back was turned; I suspect someone wanted to take the glass (attractive in its way) for a personal collection.

And I offer a small take on the antiseptic properties of Melaleuca Oil. SOme years ago I was doing some research into the ethnobotany of the Bloomfield River area (just north of the Daintree World Heritage Area in north Queensland. I'd made the mistake of taking shelter in a camp that had not been used for some months and every flea egg in creation had hatched; they all wanted a piece of me and the skin became infected. All the locals said "Put tea tree oil on it!" The bottle had a label "Melaleuca Oil" and I had my doubts about the efficacy of this approach. Ever the rational scientist I put the oil on one side of my body and left the other free of it as a control. The treated side (with the oil) got worse while the untreated side remained the same as it had been. I went off to the District Nurse at Wujal Wujal (once called the Bloomfield Mission) and she gave me some oral antibiotic which cleared both sides up in two days.

But, if it works for you, go for it!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:44 PM

When I wrote "The species that has been marketed (dare I say "hyped") is Melaleuca scoparia, commonly called "Manuka" in English, from its common name in NZ, but it also occurs in Oz." I was being distracted and offer apologies to anyone misled. Manuka is Leptospermum scoparia and while various melaleucas may be commonly known as tea tree, the most commonly applied common name is 'paperbark'.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: bobad
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:59 PM

"Also, doesn't "meat tenderizer" work, essentially, by speeding up the decomposition of meat?"

Decomposition or rot or putrefaction are terms usually applied to the process of decay caused by bacterial or fungal action.

Meat tenderizers are enzymes that break down proteins, including collagen, a connective tissue which accounts for much of the toughness in meat. They do that by cleaving peptide bonds between amino acids found in complex proteins.

Subject: Food storage, melaleuca (tea tree) oil, etc.
From: Genie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:48 PM

Good distinction, Bobad. Perhaps I should have said "partially digest" instead of "decompose." However, when you "tenderize" meat by hanging it in the fridge for a few days, you're not introducing enzymes.   

Rowan,
The particular melaleuca species used by Melaleuca, Inc. is "melaleuca alternifolia." And their products are backed by research findings that the US FDA considered sound enough to authorize the claims that the oil is "antiseptic," "analgesic," "antifungal," and that it penetrates all the layers of the skin, is aromatic, and has a couple other beneficial properties. There are a number of different compounds found in the oil from various melaleuca species, partly depending on the tree itself and partly depending on processing. Some compounds are more healthful/beneficial and others are more caustic, so the standards I referred to above have to do with the proportions of various compounds in the oil.   Most of the "tea tree oil" I find on the market has no information about such proportions of various compounds.

FWIW, I'm not at all surprised that a botanical oil, of whatever sort, had 'expired' 20 to 30 years after being bottled. Or at least that "nobody was prepared to guarantee their biological properties. LOL

I, myself, have some applesauce and tomatoes and blackberries that I canned back in the early 1980s. I can't bring myself to throw them out - yet. But I'm also afraid to just open them up and eat them, because I don't know whether and to what extent that might be dangerous.

(Continuing this tangent) I'm not surprised that Melaleuca Oil didn't work on flea bites or that it might have even made the irritation worse. I don't think the oil is touted as an "anti-itch" solution, and since it's a solvent, it probably would carry the itch-causing agent further into the skin.   My own experience, however, does strongly back up the claims that it heals burns, works as a better (and less painful) antiseptic for cuts, is an excellent remedy for gingivitis (when swished around the gums or massaged in) and toothache (not drying like oil of clove), and helps treat fungal outbreaks (e.g., athletes foot), dandruff, etc. But I don't find it to be a substitute for cortisone for itching.
And, while antibiotics may work on various ailments, I consider them a last resort, if only because the more they are used, the more antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria seem to develop. (Not to mention that they kill off beneficial bacteria and tend to have side effects like diarrhea.)
But I have sometimes treated a cut or abrasion with a combination of Melaleuca oil (for cleansing and pain relief) and antibiotic cream.

--
OK, back to topic. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:53 PM

It's a staple for topical uses in our house.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: bobad
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 10:09 PM

"However, when you "tenderize" meat by hanging it in the fridge for a few days, you're not introducing enzymes."
   
No, but you are allowing intrinsic enzymes to work on the proteins while maintaining the meat at a temperature that retards putrefaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 11:45 PM

Melaleuca alternifolia (tea tree oil)-
A rather long article, with attention to research on different uses, is found at the Mayo Clinic website.
Uses, based on scientific evidence, are all class 'C', or "Unclear scientific evidence."
In other words, the research results are inconclusive.

Melaleuca alternifolia

Note that it is suspected in some cases of contact dermatitis. Note that there are other species and genera, and the article applies only to M. alternifolia.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 12:54 AM

[[Amos:

It's a staple for topical uses in our house.]]

Melaleuca oil or partially putrefied beef?

*g*

G

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:11 AM

Re: Melaleuca ("tea tree") oil

Q - Thanks for the link to the study. The info is interesting, but, as is so often the case with research on a wide variety of products (brands, formulations, etc.), it's hard to know how to interpret it as applicable to a specific brand/quality of oil. E.g., it says in one place that many tea tree oil products contain large quantities of alcohol.   It also refers to the various compounds (e.g. cineole and terpinine) which, depending on their preponderance in the formula, can make the product more soothing (or healing) or more caustic. It seems that they gathered together an array of research findings on various melaleuca oil products and also did some research on particular formulations. But this does not answer questions about the particular products I use (one being a higher quality, more Terpinine and less Cineole, than the others) for various purposes. Nothing I read in that study suggested to me that this herbal product is necessarily of more questionable value or greater risk than most other commonly used health care products (whether aspirin, acetomenophine, antibiotics, cortisone cream, etc.) Then again, there are substances that don't bother most people but make me break out - and vice-versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:36 PM

Without reading the article (in a rush again) I wouldn't dare comment on the contents of the oils Genie is referring to but there are still a couple of clarifications useful to the discussion.

"I'm not surprised that Melaleuca Oil didn't work on flea bites or that it might have even made the irritation worse. I don't think the oil is touted as an "anti-itch" solution, and since it's a solvent, it probably would carry the itch-causing agent further into the skin."

I wasn't dealing with an itch agent but an infection; when fleas bite they open the skin and various bacteria can get into the subcutaneous tissues and bloodstream. Because I was in the wet tropics during the Wet I wasn't interested in prolonging the vulnerability to nasties that can prove difficult to eradicate. I was testing the oil as a topical antiseptic/antibiotic on infected but superficial lesions; the oil just increased the irritation and had no discernable topical antiseptic/antibiotic effect on them. The oral antibiotic worked.

And to assure readers that I take a lot of convincing before I "believe" claims about medications, I was once put on a charge (when in the weekend warriors) for refusing an order to take an aspirin. We'd been ambushing some gumtree or other on a blistering January afternoon and the medico (who had his subaltern's pips purely because he was a 4th year student in medicine) ordered our platoon to take water (which I did) and an aspirin each, which I refused on the basis of understanding that aspirin was an analgaesic and I routinely avoided them. I didn't know (and he, silly bugger, hadn't the knowledge or the wit to tell me) that aspirin is also an antipyretic useable as a prevention as well as a treatment of heat stress. Silly bugger me.

Back to the thread topic, I wasn't surprised about claims that the essential oils collection had 'gone off' either, given the length of storage time, but I doubt anyone then or now has any "real" info on such behaviour of substances that have been used as folk remedies for as long as there's been folk. Hooray for "evidence based assessment" in medicine.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Prod. dates: sell by, use by, expiration
From: Genie
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:31 AM

I don't always find that various treatments touted by others (including doctors) work for me either, Rowan. As they say in many an ad "Your results may vary."

(Of course, I also don't know if the tea tree oil you used was comparable in formulation to what I use.)

I concur with your hooray for "evidence based assessment" in medicine. However, given the expense involved in doing well controlled double blind clinical tests on large, representative samples, many an effective herbal remedy will probably never have its effectiveness verified in that manner. Who's going to spend millions and millions of dollars to prove the effectiveness of something they can't patent? Or some plant extract that doesn't have a specific, constant chemical composition?   Sure, they can sometimes isolate particular active ingredients (e.g., ASA being originally derived from willow bark), but the derivative product is not always as effective or more so than the plant itself.