BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one)

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:14 AM

Baloney, John. IF a child's parents do not have to worry about being able to afford health care, they would be able to focus more on the child and their lives, apart from their jobs, and get a kid help without worrying over working themselves to the bone to pay for it. WORRYING about paying for health care AND, about not getting it because one lacks the funds, takes up an inordinate amount of energy and time. IT causes tremendous amounts of stress which can take away from any attention, etc. being spent on family. People who are barely surviving have no energy for anything but barely surviving.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:19 AM

I haven't done any research on this - but I had the idea that most of these shootings had taken place in suburban or rural schools. Not the overpopulated areas like New York City or Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:22 AM

Calhoun conducted over-population on rats in 1958 the results were published in a paper entitled Crowding into the Behavioral Sink

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM

John, health care includes mental health care.
Have you priced what a counselor and medication
costs lately? Remember that counseling sessions
go on for a length of time.
I you don't have the money, the kid does not
get help.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM

"People who are barely surviving have no energy for anything but barely surviving."


                Absolutely right!


    "...health care includes mental health care."

                Right again. Could it be that the health care system is at the root of the whole thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:28 PM

"Could it be that the health care system is at the root of the whole thing?"

The problem is a weed with many roots. Read this thread and you'll find at least a dozen subjects that are contributing factors and need to be addressed. Certainly the health care system sucks but read through the topics here. Perhaps the biggest problem is addressing them all because the task/situation at hand seems kinda' overwhelming. Gotta' start somewhere though and a good start would be health care.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM

Spaw - I have looked through the thread, but probably missed some things. One thing that did stand out to me is, if mental health treatment had been available going back several generations it might have helped a lot.

                  It seems to me that the kid who flipped out at Virginia Tech could have really benefited from counselling. And there were people out there trying to help, but the support just didn't have enough depth, and wasn't broadly organized.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 12:58 PM

The fact that I was smoking a cigarette three blocks away from home in a district in Montreal about 50 years ago (I was 10 at the time) is a fact that got home before I did. My reception was quite warm, first from my grandmother than my mother. It seems that back then people tended to look out for all kids, not just their own. I got involed with some hubcaps from a Chevy way back when and that information was passed onto my mom, too. Sometimes when we didn't have food a bag of groceries would just appear on the step. I know we did that on occasion for other families that had a hard time due to one thing or another. I got caught with the slingshot and my best friend's dad gave me a kick in the arse. My mom didn't sue him. He hired me the following week to mow his lawn. I earned a dime and some cake. Did the job for about three years every summer. I once ignored the admonition to get away from the TV. I was not allowed to watch the TV for about six months, no shit! Today, that cause for some asshole to say that the child is being punished cruelly. When I was reminded to take out the garbage, it was a one-time reminder. I got no remuneration for that or washing supper dishes or cleaning the room or making the bed or tidying up. I was a member of the family and they were my chores. Period.

We are raising a world of sissies. We have learned to give kids a few bucks to get them out of our hair into someone else's, and in the process, we don't know our kids at all. And, of course, we are surprised. Some little fu#ker whines and cries because he can't have the latest X-box. Kid, go earn some bucks and buy one. And if you get caught stealing one, after the neighbour has kicked your ass from one end of town to the other, I will NOT sue him on your behalf.

When the child swears at the mother, slap the father.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM

Despite the British national hobby of grumbling about everthing from the weather to the National Health Service it must be said that the provision of universal health care in the UK remains relatively intact and available to all.

Nevertheless we are facing an alarming rising trend in teenagers committing crimes while armed with guns.

Although there is a mandatory five year mimimum jail term for people convicted of possessing an illegal firearm Paul Cavadino, the chief executive of the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders has said
"Tough minimum sentences will have little effect on gun crime. We will tackle it effectively only by reducing the supply of illegal weapons and combating the macho, glamorised gun culture that attracts young people to firearms."

It has also been argued that violence can be a manifestation of "powerlessness" and the frustration that accompanies the perception that the individual will never be able to aquire those things equated with "success" in our current society.

It's not a simple issue; while I have argued (and will continue to do so) for the promotion of health care available to all I honestly don't think that this is the underlying cause of an ill that appears to be affecting so many societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:13 PM

The Secret Service did a study relating to these shootings--it was motivated by the Columbine Shootings--they examined 37 incidents--and yes, they did interview perpetrators--Here are their "10 Key Findings of the Safe Schools Initiative"--



¥ Incidents of targeted violence at school rarely were sudden, impulsive acts.

¥ Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker's idea and/or plan to attack.

¥ Most attackers did not threaten their targets directly prior to advancing the attack.

¥ There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engaged in targeted school violence.

¥ Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused others concern or indicated a need for help.

¥ Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. Moreover, many had considered or attempted suicide.

¥ Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack.

¥ Most attackers had access to and had used weapons prior to the attack.

¥ In many cases, other students were involved in some capacity.

¥ Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were stopped by means other than law enforcement intervention.


Most of you have not read this surprisingly clear and concise report, which may be understandable,. but most school administrators and school board members have not., which is less understandable.

I know, because over the last several years, I have been involved in creating, delivering, and funding violence prevention programs for schools. I have quoted this, and related reports a lot, and folks are generally surprised by it.

Not surprised enough to do anything, though—the same folks who locked down their schools for weeks after Columbine, and made highly publicized vows that they would do everything humanly possible to prevent such a tragedy in their own communities have had other things on their minds ever since.

They haven't supported new initiatives, and have even cut back funding for existing ones. In one case, a school district that I will not name, received a $2.5 million federal grant that was earmarked for violence prevention programs, and used it to hire more teachers.

Yes, it's true that we don't have all the answers, but it is also true that we don't care enough to act on the answers that we do have.

Safe Schools Initiative Report (PDF)

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:17 PM

M Ted's link. (Or one like it. Link didn't work, M.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM

Try this link instead

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:33 PM

Peace and I posted the same link, he's just fasted at the keyboard--

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:49 PM

M. Ted, I think that you're dead on about people not caring enough to act.

I think there is a lot of "not caring enough" around. After all, Columbine wasn't in MY town....

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 02:00 PM

 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 02:24 PM

I think that violence is almost always a manifestation of someone's reaction to feelings of powerlessness...or their fear of losing their power, their fear of loss of control over some situation, or their feeling that they are unable to control something or someone that causes them fear and emotional pain. I was in an almost constant state of fear when I was at school (fear of certain of the other students)...but I don't tend to react violently unless I am completely and utterly desperate, with my back against the wall, and usually only if someone else is being violent to me first. I react instead by withdrawing as much as possible from people. I try to disappear.

I recall that my own father always tended to get violent (with me) (or with our various dogs) when he felt that he wasn't 100% in control of the situation. (in other words, I wasn't doing or saying what he wanted at the time...or the dog wasn't...whichever)

There was never a need for any such violence, but he could not stand not being in control. No one likes losing their power. Some react violently, some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 04:14 PM

"¥ There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engaged in targeted school violence."


                That surprises me. I would have thought that there would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:24 PM

I abhor violence and I will do whatever I can to avoid it. If, however, I am put in the situation where I have no other alternative (rare, very rare!) someone will be end up injured or dead and I will do my utmost to see that it is not me.

But so far that situation hasn't come up. I hope that it never does, because I would feel no remorse for doing what I felt I had to do. None.

It's because I can only see violence being needed on EXTREMELY RARE occasions that I don't understand the reasons for school shootings or any similar thing, such as spousal abuse or even a fight.

My manhood isn't threatened by your words or even by you pushing me around. If you push me into a corner, however, YOUR life would be threatened.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:36 PM

That is the attitude of an intelligent warrior, Rapaire, and it speaks well for you. Such situations are indeed very rare for most of us, and it's a good thing. I have been surprised a couple of times by sudden physical emergencies...surprised in that I instinctively knew what to do and did it. I wouldn't have expected that.

They were not assaults, however, unless you count the time the billy goat went after me and a couple of other guys... ;-) He was definitely out to do some real damage, but I got the better of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:42 PM

hey! LH - I'm not the world's most athletic woman but I cleared a five barred gate once when persued by an amorous Billy goat!

However I'm glad that I did not have access to a gun when I genuinely felt in physical danger from another person once and that there was a bolted door available.

There but for grace.......

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:00 PM

A good strong door is always a good choice. So is leaving. So is a phone call to the cops.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:04 PM

" If, however, I am put in the situation where I have no other alternative (rare, very rare!) someone will be end up injured or dead and I will do my utmost to see that it is not me."

And that, Rapaire, is the profile that Riginslinger is looking for--simply put, the shooter is any person who has reached that "rare, very rare!" point where they perceive that they are backed into a corner and have no other way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:17 PM

There's now a report that they have confisticated a large cache of weapons from a 14yr. old in Pennsylvania, who was trying to recruit a friend for another Columbine. One of his guns was bought FOR him by his mother. He had videos of the Columbine incident, and was angry because of bullying & harassment because he was overweight.

So....along with finding these kids before they DO something, we need to seriously combat the ever present issue of bullying by other kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:36 PM

Yup. As I've been saying, there's no one simple solution.

Sure wish there was....

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:37 PM

Bullying has been around forever. School shootings haven't. There's something different going on here.

"He had videos of the Columbine incident"

It always goes back to previous media coverage and yet everyone would rather think that it is healthcare, or bullys, or...

I don't get it. He had videos of Columbine, but it's about bullys?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:44 PM

The most important single post on this thread is the one by M Ted in which he links to the Secret Service article. It is worth reading. I value the opinions of Mudcatters, but facts do tend to carry a 'certain authority', no offense to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 06:51 PM

Pat, I have tried to respond to your post at least a dozen times and then deleted the whole damn thing. Your description of your battle for your son's life just leaves me wanting to weep, and alternately wanting to grab this problem and resolve it for you and the family. You are such a loving and committed bunch that you just don't deserve this. I think that is the problem for me. I am used to grabbing a problem by the throat, and choking the life out of it. But one like this leaves a helpless feeling. How the hell does one fight something that they cannot get hold of?????

Know this, you are square in my prayers. I admire you and Karen, as I always have, and know that if the ammunition needed to fight this monster off is love of family, and devotion to them, then you two are more than well equipped. I can offer nothing but love and admiration, and if you are in need of a chat, let me know. I still have the number.

Much love,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 07:15 PM

Pat---That goes for me too. I'm here to talk if it'll help anything---in spite of what I told Kat about not wanting to talk about some of it a while ago.

Folks---I could spew the details of our last 30 years struggling with the physical and mental health systems here, but I am sure it would serve no purpose. You people do keep this life being a gas as we fight our way through it; sometimes it's pure oxygen, and sometimes it's a fart, but I breathe deeply as long as it wafts my way.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:07 PM

I see no one has brought up the matter of the Violence that is freely available to youngsters , in Films , Videos , and particularly Video Games !! There has to be a level of desensitising with so much available .

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:15 PM

Several streams of thoughts:

One huge school disaster that the perp apparently wished to blame on property taxes: The 1927 bombing of the school in Bath, Michigan. I believe the town never recovered.

Michael Moore can make a movie watchable, I was not a fan of everything he did in "Bowling for Columbine" like picking on a clearly confused Charlton Heston and asking Walmart for a refund on the ammunition, but I thought the interview with Marilyn Manson was interesting.

Pat, thank you for sharing your struggles on behalf of Michael, and the best of luck to you. I hope he realizes he is lucky to have you and that you are on his side.

There has been some interesting work with Depression, as in looking on Depression as a Disease. I've listened to Peter Kramer's interviews on behalf of his book: "Against Depression" The subject is worth its own thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:23 PM

The SS report is chilling. Most were white males between the ages of 13-18, from two parent families and two thirds used a gun taken from their home or a relative's home.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Neil D
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:45 PM

Does anyone recall the experiments and observations that were done and made with rats? How crowding caused behaviors that were antisocial and dangerous within the community?


Yes Peace, I do remember reading about these tests back in freshman Psych more years ago than I care to admit. I will say that when I read about those tests the Earth's population was in the neighborhood of 4 billion. What is it now, 7 billion? Talk about ignoring the handwriting on the wall!

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Neil D
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:49 PM

To Pat and Karen, our hearts go out to and your family. We too, raised a very angry child. He is still a basically angry adult, but deals with it. We hope that things work out well for you.

                                  Neil and Christina D

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:59 PM

A great book I read years ago---The Population omb.

By Jonothan Kozol -- BI think it was.

It was scary even back then. ut now we are into the years he was projecting into...

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: pdq
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:05 PM

I believe The Population Bomb was written by a Stanford professor named Paul Erlich.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:18 PM

Thanks, Robomatic, for bringing up the Bath School Disaster. I grew up only a few miles from Bath, and, in the whole time we were in school, no one ever said a word about it. In fact, I only found out about it as an adult.

However, several times a year, every year, from the time I was in kindergarten until I graduated high school, we were evacuted from our schools, to the farthest part of the play fields, while the police and fire departments scoured the building, in response to anonymous, telephoned bomb threats.

If this shows anything, it is simply that silence is no protection--people still know about them, and continue to act them out--

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 05:43 PM

As it happens, BBC Radio 4 has had two items today which, I think, are relevant. One is on a report about
primary schools and stress levels in children. I think the interviewee who said that kids are confused by being told that happiness = having "stuff" put her finger on something. Then on an entirely separate programme - You and Yours - they were talking about the health and well being benefits of singing.

No arguments from all those here present, I would think.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 06:15 PM

maybe just a little Sian - I really found the "singing" exercises so off putting and condescending that I'm seriously worried about being a pensioner!

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:25 PM

Pat, I'm also sending your son and you, and the rest of your family positive vibrations.

And I'd like to also take this opportunity to thank you for all the lightness and brightness you have brought to Mudcat in spite of the very difficult times that your family is experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:03 AM

Spaw rightly talks about the damage to the brain and mind done by parents' drink or drugs. So far nobody has mentioned another source of trouble - brain damage caused by blows to the head or by shaking.

A brain-damaged person is usually an angry person.

A newspaper article today (or yesterday) said that the boy in Ohio had often been sent to school unwashed and in dirty clothes. What do you want to bet that the adults who failed to keep him clean also failed to protect him from blows to the head?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM

"A brain-damaged person is usually an angry person."

          I'd be mad too if somebody damaged my brain.

          Oh, but maybe they have, and...

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: goatfell
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:50 AM

well its sad but what do you do when you live in a country that beleives that it every citizen's right to carry guns.

why don't you just make the owning of guns illegal or you must be a certain age to own one and even then join a gun club and have them to look after your guns, so much for the gun culture eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:00 AM

"you must be a certain age to own one "

You mean like the current US Federal laws that prohibit gun ownership to minors, felons, and the mentally ill?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:48 AM

I would have the NRA (not the gun manufacturers) open to any and all civil liabilities for any and all school shootings.

Maybe after the first 100 million dollars in liability fines and punitive judments they might become a voice for good respondsible change regarding guns and children instead of the voice for better gun youth training.

If the NRA is dissolved then go after the gun makers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:53 AM

And AAA instead of the insurance companies, in case of automobile accidents?


Please show me ANY case of school shootings where the weapons used were in LEGAL hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 11:05 PM

Maybe not school shootings, but that off-duty deputy the other day was "legal" with a gun, and maybe that guy in the Amish case a year or so back. Most of them have been kids, though.

             On the other hand, I don't see what's to be gained by going after the NRA or the manufacturers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 02:14 PM

Sad news coming through of another school shooting here.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/shooting-reported-high-school-near-cleveland-141312873.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM

Yes, I used to work about 15 miles south from there. Chardon is the county seat. Heavily Amish area.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one)
From: GUEST,grover
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 07:53 PM

Dated a girl from Chardon in my youth. My mother is buried in East Claridon Cemetary just a few miles from there. We lived about 30 miles north next to Lake Erie. Makes me sad when I hear of bad things happening where I grew up. A universal feeling, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one)
From: gnu
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:15 PM

Oh my.