BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one)

Subject: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Alice
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 02:55 PM

Hate to post another on this topic of school shooting.
At this point, the news seems to say only the shooter may be dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:08 PM

It is one of the biggest conundrums that our media faces. Every time they cover these shootings in the national press, they incite another several of them.

And yet, they cannot not cover them as stories. They are sensational.

And they (the press) are not responsible. The shooter is clearly the guilty one.

...except that they wouldn't happen if not for national media coverage.

What would you guys do?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:09 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038532.stm

latest on the BBC web page - injuries reported; "shooter" held!

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Alice
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:15 PM

Yes, John, his trench coat is a reminder of the Columbine shooters.
Confusion on the facts of who is hurt and whether he is still alive. There are other school shootings each year that national news does not cover. Copy cat behavior is typical of teens. I don't think it should be sensationalized the way the big networks carry on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:39 PM

The AP is saying that the shooter shot himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 03:56 PM

I don't know what happened with this one but as it was happening Karen and I were actively involved in a meeting trying to prevent another. How so you ask? Without going into diagnostic details, our own 14 year old son is struggling through life right now. About 5 months ago his behavior and drawings reached a real low, extremely frightening with talk of suicide, suicide pacts, killing his gf's mother. Among the things causing this was a borderline personality disorder, reactive attachment problems, and depression, all of which were helped by Fetal Alcohol/Drug Syndrome. Thanks so much there bio-mom.

We began counselling but things slid further downhill when he began cutting himself to ease the depression. He wrote and drew more about suicide, homicide......geeziz, I can't begin to write all of this down for you here but trust me, it was very frightening (talk of his "armored angel" [that's a gun] and how it would ease the pain; a drawing of three death figures on crosses and written below, "I won't shed a tear as my family dies. Hang them on a cross of nails). It was EXACTLY what you read of things left when they read the writings of the Columbine shooters, Pearl, Virginia Tech, and all the others.   We worked harder to get him help to little avail. He was in a crisis ward at Ohio State twice and at another program once. Altogether for about three weeks on three occasions. He went into therapeutic foster care and intense counselling, came home for two weeks and cut himself up after a minor setback......including cuts to the neck.

We are finally into something which I truly believe may make a difference over time.....we can but hope. Today he told me "You aren't even my Dad anymore." Hard to hear.............But if this works out even halfway he will be far better off in life and so will those around him. But let me tell you some of what it took to get here.

We tried to access the mental health system back in April as this became worse. Everybody wanted to help but couldn't. When we dismantled the Mental Health System in this country we threw out the baby with the bath. Nobody wanted to see the warehousing but the system needed repair, not destruction. After awhile I began to understand why Columbine and Virginia Tech happened. As parents, Karen and I found ourselves virtually helpless.   A consultant on this asked me if we had great insurance. I said yes (which it is) but there were some limits of course. He asked if we were wealthy and I of course said no. He told me, "Sorry, but I can't help you." We had any number of people in the mental health field and insurance folks plus friends with anecdotal stories who said the only thing we could probably end up doing was turning over custody to the state.

After months of frustration and hard work we may have finally come to something that will work and can be paid for through the state, county, schools, our insurance, and our bank account---it may take a village to SAVE a child as well.......I hope it works or you may see me on TV, the parent of one of those kids who "should have seen it coming and gotten the boy some help."Got any idea how lousy you feel as a parent when you can't give your kid what he desparately needs?

yeah...............

I feel for the parents and the kids of those injured and killed but I can far too easily identify with the kids doing the shooting and their parents. Been there.....don't want to do that.

Put my son Michael in your thoughts......and one thing you can do? A portion of Michael's problems come from Fetal Alcohol/Fetal Drug problems. Confront every pregnant person you know or meet and tell them, "Not one drop, not a toke, not a snort, not a shot."

Pat Patterson --- Not exactly feelin' like Spaw at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:05 PM

Trite, empty words is all I'd have, so I'll save 'em out of respect. Sorry catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:08 PM

And yet, they cannot not cover them as stories. They are sensational.

They could. Terrible stories, but essentially local terrible stories, which would be better treated as local stories, as at one time would have been the case.

The role for the media in this kind of thing should be getting into the issues behind the sensational stories, the kind of thing Pat was just talking about so powerfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:09 PM

Best of luck Pat. Our thoughts are with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:10 PM

{{{{{{PAT & KAREN}}}}}}}

Glad you told more of it, here, darlin'. Ya know I'll answer, but those calls from late night emergency runs are a tad scary.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM

Anything I can do help, Pat? I've still got some friends back in Ohio.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:23 PM

Has anyone here besides myself heard of the Cassie Jo Stoddard killing a year ago? Where she was stabbed multiple times by two of her classmates?

No?

I didn't think so. Pocatello isn't a big-time, or near a big-time, media outlet.

The media can control itself if it wishes to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:31 PM

Hugs to you, and Karen, and the lad, Pat.

Tell him there's a mess o' folks out here hoping he finds his way to life.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:35 PM

I have nowt to post here because it's all been said before, no offense to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:36 PM

I saw the title and my heart sank. "Please, not Michael" is what went through my head.
My own son is a danger to himself and others but no one would listen to an obviously over-protective drama queen mother. I had ax handles and baseball bats hidden all around my house and knives under my mattress and pillows.
The system sucks. I can almost guarantee that this boy could have been helped or at least prevented from suicide/murder if anyone could or would have taken the time to listen to him. I can almost guarantee that he or someone who cares about him tried to get help and was stone walled by the results of Reagan's cutbacks. There is simply not enough affordable services to handle these children in a timely manner.
Preventing the problem before it happens? Spaw is right. If you are pregnant, NO alcohol; NO drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:41 PM

Sins, that's what ran through my mind when I saw the title, too. Fortunately, it sounds as though they may have something that will work, this time, for Michael.

One wonders about the 20 year old sheriff's deputy in Wisconsin who just killed himself and five others. Barely out of his teens, sworn to uphold the law, and apparently couldn't handle a break-up with his girlfriend. What kind of help might have prevented that "solution" by him?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:47 PM

SINSULL,

The boy was fourteen. Reagan hasn't been president in over 19 years. And the undoing of the mental health care "system" (to which catspaw referred) was done by well-meaning Democrats. Look it up.

Not every tragedy is a Republican president's fault, hard a pill as that may be to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:53 PM

Thoughts and prayers to (all of) you guys. And, thanks for the courage to post and tell us and the world... it helps us all understand, and, it helps us all as a community.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:56 PM

"except that they wouldn't happen if not for national media coverage"

Sorry, but that is not the answer. I'm not trying to defend the media - but if you really think that a television story is going to inspire someone to pick up a gun and shoot someone, then you are missing the problem.   As Spaw and others have pointed out, the issue comes down to health care.   Sorry John, but the dismantling did start with Reagan and it has continued through every administration since then.   Unless you have the resources, you do not have access to the help you need.

Instead of blaming the media for increases in violence, maybe it is time we wake up and look at how we care for people in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:59 PM

It wasn't about cut resources. It was an issue about unfairly institutionalizing the mentally ill. And it was a Democrat idea to dismantle it. And nothing has come into the void to replace it. And its results were then cynically used by the Democrats to make Reagan seem worse by blaming the homelssness that they caused onto him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:05 PM

I don't want to get into any discussion about American politics (I'm not qualified enough) but there is something about "copy cat" behaviour that cannot be denied.

I'm with Peace on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:15 PM

Yes, the issue was about unfairly institutionalizing the mentally ill and it took place during the Carter administration. Jimmy Carter signed a Mental Health act into law in 1980 which would have continued federal funding.   Ronald Reagan, in his preoccupation with reducing federal spending, rescinded the law which put the burden back on individual states - without the resources to make it work. So yes, Reagan was blamed for the homless issue and the inadequate mental health care that continues to exist in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:17 PM

Sure there is "something" about copycat behavior - but the people who are doing the copying are suffering from lack of help. To say that these events would not happen if the media did not cover it simply ignores the reasons behind it.   If you or I watch a story, we are not going to find the motivation to copy it. Why do these individuals do so?   It is more than simply watching something on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:38 PM

I really don't think it would be occurring with the frequency that it does without the coverage. Without the warped incentive to become famous, the mental illness would manifest itself in a different way.

Interesting thing though, we can't know. All we have to go on is the testimony of kids who have tried and failed, or tried and then not killed themselves. They all have WAY more than a passing awareness of their "heroes" who have gone on before them.

The adolescent mind -- even at its best -- has a very hard time discerning the difference between famous and infamous. And we keep making the offenders -- the shooters -- into larger-than-life people all the while blaming their acts on our favorite political scapegoat.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:50 PM

I am just numb with it all. I chatted with Pat (spaw)in person, about Michael just last week. It was so frustrating not to have anything helpful to say....and Pat & Karen are aware and working to keep something bad from happening, as best they can. Think of all the other troubled kids who are largely ignored UNTIL they explode.

I am hearing now that this boy, as with many others, made threats and gave indications to other students thay he WOULD do something serious. If we can't solve their problems, we could at LEAST encourage all students to report threats they hear from other students!!! And before you tell me that 'snitching' will just cause dissention and that 'most' threats are just idle noise, ask yourself whether it's worth it to head off just one incident like this.

There's so much to say about why this is happening more these days, and why we need security guards in high schools, but for now let's just focus on the kids we know, and trying to prevent problems before they get this far.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 08:02 PM

Reagan cut back federal funding for the mentally ill and thousands of homeless and mentally ill people ended up lost in the system and on the streets. It began then. My statement was not meant as an attack on Republicans but certainly a stab at the "trickle down" system that never did.
The boy's age has nothing to do with the fact that there are no places for the mentally ill.
The unique problem with the mentally ill is that almost invariably they claim to be healthy. If my leg is broken I go to a doctor. If my brain is malfunctioning, I blame menopause, diet, personal weakness but deny there is a problem - the voice of experience here.
Health Insurance companies limit benefits for mental illness in ways they could never limit medical coverage.
Autism is a huge and growing problem. Even if a cause is identified, there are thousands of children who will need extraordinary care once their parents die. But places for drug addicts, the mentally ill, the seriously retarded, etc. simply do not exist UNLESS you have money.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 09:14 PM

Yes, the media coverage plays a part....one person does it, and other say, well, Damn, he had the balls to do it, so can I! And Off we go....

Pat,Karen, there is nothing I can say that will ease your way, but know that we are thinking of you, and raised an 'angry' son too. No, it was NOT fetal anything abuse....he went to school on his First Day as a normal(I thought)by and came home ANGRY. He had been fine at home (only child at that time, etc...) He is STILL an angry person, but after years and years he is beginning to learn to control it because he has a son of his own now...and he doesn't want Owen to bear the brunt of his anger.

Took 3 years, but he was finally diagnosed as ADHD (ADD at the time). I'm still not sure that is what it is, or that the diagnosis helped at all. Six months in the county jail seemed to tho. He NEVER wants to go back there....and there is a lot I just don't have time to type.

He is alive, never killed anyone, and doing well at age 28 so there is HOPE.

PS-a lot of the current popular song lyrics don't help much either, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 09:27 PM

I sound like an old fogey, but this didn't happen back in the day. Why? There was just as much anger and frustration, just as much depression. Yet I don't remember anyone committing suicide or shooting up a school (and yes, we often had at least a .22).

Part of it is the media, part of it song "lyrics," part of it the general glorification of violence, part of it....

A year ago we found a spiked club outside the Library; a week later a shotgun shell rigged to go off if thrown hard enough. One of the high schools is a block away and the police (we don't fool around with this stuff!) felt that it was related to the high school.

There are no metal detectors in the schools here, although there are special duty police officers.

I don't have an answer, but I do know one must be found -- and soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:01 PM

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Rapaire. No one is going to convince me that the various media have not played a big role in it. Songs by their nature are a multi-media construct to 'feed' a multi-sensory receptor. Helping that is a decline [imo] in the 'old' nature of family relationships and even in the concept of what family IS. The pursuit of comfort and accessories to aid in its procurement have divided our societies because it has happened at the expense of family. The days when a disappointed look on an elder's face meant more and did more than the decisions of our courts seem to be done with, and that disturbs me very much. I don't know what it is that constitutes a healthy society, but I do know that this ain't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:19 PM

I have to agree with Peace & Rapaire. Seeing & listening to so much gratuitous violence desensitizes kids to it. They develop an unstated, but pervasive idea that violence IS a valid response to frustration or disappointment...etc.

No...I know you can't 'prove' causality in individual cases, but statistics make it clear....(we couldn't 'prove' cigarettes were dangerous for many years, so the tobacco companies just denied it...and let's face it, violent TV shows and music SELL, so the producers deny.

There's no easy way to prove the point, except with a couple of generations of LESS violent entertainment and news.....anyone wanna bet about the chance of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:21 PM

My neighbor is an architect. He has a fifth-wheel trailer, TWO pickup trucks which can pull it, a car for his wife, and a Porsche in the garage. He also has a fast-looking boat on a trailer, two dirt bikes, two jet skis, two ATVs, and a golf cart (that I know of). He has two of these things so he can share them with his son.

He also has a wife and a daughter.

Today, I learned that he is facing foreclosure on his house. This hits me very hard because I know the pure hell my mother went through to keep us living in the house my father built (he died when I, the oldest, was 5).

Things do not a family make, nor do they necessarily create happiness or mental or physical health. I've seen children enjoy a cardboard box more than an expensive radio-controlled car.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:43 PM

I apologize for the length of the cut and paste. However, it's worth it even if only to understand that it is pandemic and NOT singularly attached to the USA.



"The Erfurt massacre is the worst school shooting in Europe since a gunman killed 16 children and their teacher in Scotland in 1996.
Detailed below are some of the worst incidents of the past decade.

Scotland, March 1996: Gun enthusiast Thomas Hamilton shoots 16 children and their teacher dead at their primary school in Dunblane, Scotland before killing himself.

Yemen, March 1997: A man with an assault rifle attacked hundreds of pupils at two schools in Sanaa, Yemen, killing six children and two others. He was sentenced to death the next day.

United States, October 1997: A 16-year-old boy fatally stabbed his mother before shooting dead two students, including his former girlfriend, at Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi.

United States, December 1997: A 14-year old boy killed three students attending a prayer meeting at Heath High School in West Paducah, Kentucky.

United States, March 1998: Two boys aged 13 and 11 killed four pupils and a teacher after setting off fire alarms at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

United States, April 1999: Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris killed 12 of their classmates and a teacher at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, before killing themselves.

Germany, November 1999: A 15-year-old student in Meissen, eastern Germany, stabbed his teacher to death after taking bets from classmates he would dare commit the crime.

He was later jailed for seven years.

Germany, March 2000: A 16-year-old pupil at a private boarding school in the Bavarian town of Branneburg, shot a 57-year-old teacher, who later died from injuries.

The teenager - who also shot himself - was facing expulsion from school after failing a cannabis test.

Germany, February 2002: A former pupil killed his headmaster and set off pipe bombs in the technical school he had recently been expelled from in Freising near Munich.

The man also shot dead his boss and a foreman at the company he worked for before turning the gun on himself. Another teacher was shot in the face, but survived.

Germany, April 2002: Seventeen people killed after a gunman - a former pupil - opens fire in a school in Erfurt, eastern Germany. He then turned the gun on himself."

There are some from Canada that were not included in that BBC article.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:46 PM

Respectfully, I have to disagree with Peace, Rapaire and others who feel the media are to blame. School shootings are not an everyday occurance. I just read a report on the MSNBC website that said shool violence and attacks have dropped by half in the past decade. (Perhaps crimes are not being reported?)

Charles Whitman was not reacting to the media when he climbed the tower in Texas in 1966. The song "I Don't Like Mondays" was based on a school shooting in 1979. There have been school shootings over the decades, but we did not have 24 hour newschannels to report them.

I think issues of alienation and persecution are more likely to cause these shootings rather than a video. Most of these people are described as having suffered from ridicule - such as last weekends story about the 20 year old police officer opening fire at a party.

It's easy to blame the messenger, but harder to fix the real problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM

Google


School Shootings


Interesting site.

www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/school_violence/school_shootings.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:58 PM

No, Ron. I do NOT blame the media alone. I think that there is no one single cause -- if there were it would be easily fixed. This is a problem that runs deep and wide, and includes our leaders' prediliction for violence as a solution, the use of children as weapons of war and crime, adult greed, Gene Autry shooting the gun out of the bad guy's hand, John Wayne in "The Green Berets," spousal abuse, child abuse, feelings of helplessness and despair...and perhaps something, I don't know what, wired into our brains.

This is a perfect example of what I've learned over the years: there is rarely or never one cause or one simple cure, no matter how much we'd like there to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:07 PM

It seems like the authorities would begin to look at what all of the perpetrators had in common.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:10 PM

To do that you need living perpetrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:13 PM

Spaw - don't know you but my heart aches for you. As the parent of a child who used to cut herself a lot -- it is downright horrendous to be part of. I knew my child would never be violent to anyone but herself--not sure how one would cope with the horror of knowing the hurt could be directed towards anyone else as well.

I just got back from the UK from a week's vacation -- while there, the topic turned - as it always does - to health care. From every person I heard how the NHS is breaking down and it might as well be abandoned now. At one point I lost my temper and burst out -- TRY LIVING IN A COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE IT. How can we turn our backs on the mentally ill? How CAN we.....! If nothing else the mentally ill can turn around and hurt those of us who are (nominally) not mentally ill...............

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 01:50 AM

Our American friends seem to be getting into a dogfight over who wrecked their health system.

Democrat or Republican - couldn't you get some cross party agreement that the present situation is quite intolerable and you NEED some form of socialised medicine.

My wife got ill (disabled in fact) with rheumatoid arthritis when she was just 26 years old and it was the end of both our working careers. the marriage vows say 'in sickness and in health' and when you look around theres never anyone else to help. I suspect its the same with bringing up kids.

Denise and I have lived through some pretty tough times financially, but the situation would have killed us both if we had been worried about health insurance, and the medical profession had some sort carte blanche to ignore us.

One things sure - you needed a health service a damn sight more than you needed to invade Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM

"One things sure - you needed a health service a damn sight more than you needed to invade Iraq..."


                     You got that right.


            "To do that you need living perpetrators."

               Not necessarily, and besides, there are some living perpetrators. I suspect there are findings that are too politically incorrect for them to disclose.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:41 AM

I think the answer to "Who caused the health care problem in the US?" is "We all did. Democrats and Republicans, you and me." And it's going to take everyone working together to solve the damned thing.

Same thing is true of these shootings -- and it's not just in the US.

Let's stop pointing fingers and flinging blame and start working on the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 08:59 AM

The boy was described by other students as a loner and devil worshipper who had made jokes about shooting other students in front of teachers.

"I didn't think he meant it," another unidentified student told news station WKYC. "I thought he just said it because he wanted to be popular.".........from a news report

WHAT???    "popular"??

Something is sadly wrong here....... and not just in the US either.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM

We learned something on the mudcat -- almost from its beginning. It is really easy to "make a splash" here. All you have to do is be a VERY obnoxious troll and the whole mudcat is your oyster. Sure, it's negative attention -- but for some reason that few seem to understand, that doesn't matter.

And so we have our Martin Gibsons and our (who's the guy who kept complaining about Joe Offer's censorship of his posts? -- he had hundreds of complaint threads but his name escapes me right now). We can't even BEG regulars to not respond. Finally, when self-restraint didn't work, much against the principles of many here, the move was made to actually cut these people's posting rights off. We even modified the guest posting policy.

Like it or not, attention is attention, and there are MANY in this overcrowded world -- people with folks living lives so devoid of meaning, so devoid of value, that they WILL resort to anything that gives them a hope that their existence matters.

And the national media has PROVEN to them that this is one way to matter in the world.

On the mudcat it is also possible to "make a splash" with excellence -- helpful lyric/chord posting, creative and entertaining stories, friendly banter. But that's the hard way and not nearly as sure-fire. In fact, you can do all that (good stuff) and yet, if you have a political point of view contrary to the majority, you are still more likely to have even your good stuff ignored (though somehow, ironically, the collective cannot bring itself to ignore a troll).

The world is just like that. There are many famous who have become that way by virtue of their brilliant, helpful offerings. But it's harder. And the odds are not in favor of even striving for excellence bringing one the positive attention they crave.

The need for attention is the problem. The media has proven to the sick that it doesn't matter if you do good (hard to accomplish) or bad (easy to accomplish) -- it will elevate you above the anonymous.

And, yes, those shooters who have survived these shootings HAVE been very aware of their heroes who have gone before them. We don't have to guess. We know this from interviews with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 09:22 AM

An excellent analogy and analysis John.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Rumncoke
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:10 AM

The UK health service might be struggling in some things - but you can be sure that if you are in a RTA, or you have a sudden fainting fit, someone will diall 999 (note the number) and there will be an ambulance sent with people who can help there and then, and you will most likely be taken to hospital and whatever can be done will be done - from giving you a cup of tea and a biscuit whilst someone is found to take you home to gallons of blood transfusions and hours in the operating theatre, with no thought of who is paying.

My children were checked regularly throughout their first years of life, they were give innoculations agaist common diseases, free dental care, free eye tests - one had a minor operation on his hand to remove a 'trigger' the other had a slight twist in a foot and had it corrected. There was no charge for the treatment.

We can sometimes be bewildered by how the US organises the health care of its citisens and wonder why the population does not demand that the system is changed so that those who are too poor or too ill to buy the care they need are not a threat to the ordinary man in the street.

Health care should not be a matter for the individual, because it affects everyone.

A couple of simplistic illustrations;

The man who should be taking medication for his heart condition but loses his job and can no longer have health insurance could be driving his car, fall unconscious and wipe out - anyone's family. There could be someone at the supermarket checkout feeling ill, but has got to work, they can't afford to go to the doctor, you can't protect your child, your partner or yourself from being infected too. You can only obtain the help for your family once the worst has already happened.

Personally I prefer to fund free health care for everyone on the basis that treatment for anyone who needs it could avert huge problems for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:39 AM

"And, yes, those shooters who have survived these shootings HAVE been very aware of their heroes who have gone before them. We don't have to guess. We know this from interviews with them."


                   I'm not sure knowing their heroes helps us know what motivates them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:42 AM

We need to understand their nightmares.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 10:52 AM

Does anyone recall the experiments and observations that were done and made with rats? How crowding caused behaviors that were antisocial and dangerous within the community?

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:05 AM

I'm betting that you could have actual free health care (rather than paid for by taxes OR individually) and it wouldn't make one bit of difference in school shootings.

I think (again) the school shootings are a combination of overcrowding schools, coupled with a heightened perceived need for attention that accompanies any situation in which too many feel that their lives are meaningless by virtue of being too small a fish in too big a pond...

...further coupled with the promise of a cure for that meaninglessness offered by the fame that the act will get them -- just as they've witnessed so many times before on National TV.

Health care has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:10 AM

"Does anyone recall the experiments and observations that were done and made with rats? How crowding caused behaviors that were antisocial and dangerous within the community?"

            Yes! I think you're onto something. Also there were the experiments that--it was Either Alan Ginsberg or William Burroughs--wrote about in generating what he called "fruit rats."