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BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:07 AM Good point, Teribus. However, as with the common misperception among voters in the US that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11, it is also a common misperception that Nixon was impeached. As you have noted, even I forgot for a while that he was not. On the other hand,the US House of Representatives did carry out investigations and hearings on the subject of impeaching Nixon, and they passed three articles of impeachment. It was a safe bet that the Senate would convict, and that's why Nixon resigned, so it was only Nixon's resignation that prevented his impeachment. I think it's an honest mistake for people to think he was actually impeached. Nevertheless, under the circumstances, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use Nixon and Watergate as an example of a case in which carrying on an impeachment investigation and passing articles of impeachment will not cause a backlash, but on the contrary, will help to restore a greater measure of democracy in this country. Had he been impeached rather than having resigned, I think the result would have been the same. Concerning your supposition that none of the evidence would stand up, John Dean, former counsel to Nixon (an attorney), who was serving in the Nixon administration during Watergate, says otherwise. I think I'll trust him before I'll trust you on this subject. http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/06/1354218 Plus, the evidence doesn't need to stand up in a court of law. It only needs to stand up in the US House of Representatives, and in the US Senate. Their standard for impeachment is left entirely up to them to determine. If they believe that the president has not faithfully executed his oath of office (remember - the oath he takes is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States), or if it is their opinion that he has committed "high crimes and misdemeanors", they can impeach. Because impeachment is not a legal proceeding. It is a political proceeding. The only consequence of being convicted in an impeachment proceeding is to be removed from office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:19 AM Impeachment is not possible under the current circumstances... Therer are too many Repubs in Congress... Yes, Nixon was headed for impeachment had he not resigned but their was a solid Dem Congress... Bill Clinton was impeached by a solid Repub. Congress... The numbers aren't there, Carol, to pull it off... Rather than the Dems "wasting tax money" and time trying to pull off something that the Repubs would certainly accuse them of as "show boating", which would ceratinly be seen by the general public as somehting they have come to hate: politics... the Dems will be better served by continuing to use hearings as the vehicle to carry the real story... Do I like it this way??? Heck, no, I don't... If the numbers were there to actually pull it off, I'd say "Go for it" but they aren't... The Dems don't have much margin for error in the '08 presidential election... My own state, Virginia, might be the swing state that elects a Dem... Virginias ain't gonna vote Dem on the heals of a failed impeachemnt attempt... This is reality, Carol... Pure and simple reality... But I still loves you... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 01:23 PM Time will tell, Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM Nixon resigned because he knew he was going to be impeached if he did not resign first. And so did everyone else. That is why people say that he was "impeached", although it isn't literally true. He was simply about to be impeached, that's all. I would agree with Carol that impeachment proceeding would nail the coffin shut on the Republicans for the next election, not hurt the Democrats. That's my opinion. I might be wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: artbrooks Date: 08 Nov 07 - 04:11 PM Congress already has an approval rating hovering around 40%, primarily because they haven't been able to accomplish much since the Dems took over. This is, as anyone who looks at the numbers can easily see, because any legislation has to get through a Senate that is nearly evenly divided and then withstand a veto threat - which (in practical terms) means any significant legislation has to have a 2/3 majority in both the House and Senate. Impeachment proceedings will eliminate any remaining possibility of anything at all being accomplished by this Congress, at least until after the 2008 elections, and it will open the very real possibility, since Congress' approval rate will only go lower, of voters becoming even more fed up and the Reps regaining control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: GUEST,282RA Date: 08 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM A Bush veto got overridden today. Maybe this will get the ball rolling. But the sad truth is that the democrats are so spineless that even if they had the votes to impeach, they wouldn't have the guts to go through with it. Pelosi didn't table it because the wouldn't be enough votes, she just tabled it. She's a lousy, rotten backstabbing, ugly bitch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM Impeachment proceedings will eliminate any remaining possibility of anything at all being accomplished by this Congress The way I see it, if they have impeachment proceedings, the most important thing of all will be accomplished... they will have - finally - fulfilled their oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. The reason their numbers are so low is because of the war, and the reason the Democrats' numbers are so low is because they campaigned on the promise to end the war, and they're not living up to that promise. And some of them even campaigned on the promise to impeach the president and vice president, and they're not living up to that promise either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:17 PM Dead right, Carol. They would finally be doing their job. The Emperor (meaning the entire government, both the president AND congress) has no clothes...and the public knows it. That's why their ratings are low. They are both failing the country and betraying their oaths. They are not protecting and defending the Constitution, they are protecting and defending their own personal interests (in a political sense) and the interests of their primary financial backers in the corporate sector. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: artbrooks Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM The Democrats in Congress have a clear choice - spending a lot of time, effort and money doing "the right thing", and having nothing to show for it except an even more divided Congress or compromising and getting at least something done, no matter how far it might be from the ideal. Since I'm the one who pays their salaries, I know what my choice is. Others are entirely entitled to their own opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM having nothing to show for it except an even more divided Congress While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I don't agree with your characterization of what we and the Congress would have to show for it. I know that protecting and defending our Constitution is the most important duty the members of our government are charged with. That's why they must take the oath to protect and defend our Constitution in order to be allowed to take office. Nothing else they do will ever matter if they allow our Constitution to be undermined or destroyed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:32 PM Well, waht we have is a terribly flawed situation... Poll after poll tells politicans that the American people are fed up with "politics"... The Repubs have been deft at turning everything the Dems attempt to do as "politics"... If you think the Swift Boat Liars havd a field day wtih John Kerry you ain't seen nuthin' if the Dems push this too hard... And what screwed this up was the impeachment of Bill Clinton... It left a very sour taste in alot of moderates minds... Moderates are the new swing vote block and the Dems know it... So do the Repubs and the moderates are telling pollsters t6hey are sick of politics... This has nothing to do with the crimes that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Peral/Wolfowitz War Machine have perpetrated on the planet... Those are a different subject... If we look back on the discussions that have occured here in Mudville since the Mad-Dash-to-Iraq we see that there isn't any new territory... The facts are out there... Even if the House began "serious" impeachemnt proceedings today, the Repubs could filibuster and filibuster and use parlimentary manuvers to hold the Dems off well into next year... Plus, think about this... There are a lot of Denms in the House who have been elected from Red States... It would be suicide for them... And let's look at this in a differnt light... We have serious problems that need fixes... As Ron Paul has so aptly pointed out we have a foriegn policy that if continued witl take us down... We have a serious problem with distribution of wealth, health care, global warming... I'd rather see the energy spent on those problems than trying to get Bush and/or Cheney out a couple months earlier... Make no bones about it, these problems will be shoved aside if impeachement takes hold... Will impeaching either or both of these creeps get US out of Iraq one day earlier??? I doubt it... If the dems wanted to get US out of Iraq they could have done it by suspending the rules ("The Nuclear Option") and the war would be over... So for my anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-Cheney friends here, I'm 110% with you on just how screwed up these creeps have gotten our country... There is absolutley no difference in our thinking here... But these creeps are going to do what they are going to do and the only way to stop them is for the Dems to out flank them in framing of issues... In this climate a frontal attack is not the smartest idea... Yeah, I'm one of those who most folks think should be the strongest behind such an attack but, if I'm a chess player and want to win, or if I'm in fist fight and want to win, flailing ain't gonna get me there... That's is my opinion... Now with that said, if this movement picks up steam, I'd like the opportunity to revisit my thinking, regarless of my cureent opinion as to the wisdom of a frontal attack on Bush and/or Cheney... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM Yes, I understand your viewpoint on that, Bobert. It's ironical. The Republicans pretend they are the party that is against "Big Government". Ha!!! They have increased the authority of Big Government and reduced the civil rights of the ordinary citizen. They have increased surveillance of citizens and opened up extra-legal and unconstitutional torture facilities offshore. They have enormously increased federal spending and the national debt. When they hire private contractors to do government work, what do they pay them with? Tax money, that's what! Private contractors are now serving as mercenary soldiers for this government, at home and abroad, and getting paid big bucks from the public purse to do it. What a con game the Republicans are playing. They're the most draconian Big Goverment in action that I've seen yet in the USA. They ARE what they accuse others of being...terrorists and promoters of authoritarian BIG government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:20 PM Actually, Bobert, there have been a few polls that have shown that the majority of voters want impeachment. They don't see it as politics at all, but a restoration of our Constitution and our democracy. That's certainly how Dennis sees it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: artbrooks Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM I am all for impeachment and conviction. The probability of conviction is exactly zero. Impeachment without conviction equals exoneration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM Yeah, Carol, and I have read some of the polls but with numbers, at best, in the 40% for inmpeachment and at worst at 30% if you do the math then you see that such a tact would piss off between 60 and 70% of the voters... Now back to what I was saying... The margin for victory in winning the White House is very, very small... One mis-step and they will again be defeated... They need to coax at least one Southern state out of the Southern Stategey... My state, Virginia is probably the only one in play and that is assuming that the Dems can win Florida... I can absolutely guarentee you that on the heels of an impeachment that Virginians will turn back toward the Repubs... This will happen... All I hear and read in Virginia newspapers is that the current crop of Dems that have been winning are winning because they don't come off a s Bush-haters... They are talking about issues... Do you realize that it was the Repubs in the House who were voting for impeachment??? What does that tell you??? Well, it tells me that their pollsters see impeachemnt as another Swift Boat and impeachement is a Repub dream come true... Hey, I love democracynow... I love Amy Goodman... I love being part of the left... But what I hate is when the left falls into a Swift Boat trap... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:06 PM Artbrooks is all for impeachment and conviction. Now for life of me I simply just cannot understand why. There are absolutely no grounds for the one and no evidence for the other. You, i.e. most on this forum, are demonstrating and advocating the traits that caused the Soviets and the rest of the world to laugh aloud at the lot of you during the "Jimmy Carter" years. Having been attacked on the 11th September 2001, you find yourselves, through pure leadership, to be in a position that you have neither the guts nor the will to see through, even although you are brilliantly equipped to do so. Your military have by training and by capability both the will and the resolution to see it through, but you are not prepared to stay the course and back them, and by doing so you guarantee your own demise. I would never have thought that a country so well blessed could have defeated itself so comprehensively twice in under fifty years. The first time you managed to recovered from it, this time you will not. High time you woke up to the fact that you are fighting for your survival and start acting accordingly. Britain had it in 1940, now its your turn. Now who amongst you are going to act so that someone will state that this was your finest hour - sadly I think no-one, because when push comes to shove you are just not up to it, you are fully prepared to talk about freedom, rights and liberty, you are simply just not prepared to fight for them or defend them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:19 PM No, T-Bird... Waht had the reat of the world fallin' down holdin' their sides in laughter was the impeachemnt of Bill Clinton for getting a friggin' blow job... As for guts??? You are very much mistaken... It ain't about guts... It's about attacking the right people... Irag had nothing to do with 9/11 and its there that is draining our tax dollars and killing our economy... Tell ya' what, if George Bush siad tomorrow that he needed folks to go to Sadan then I'd give it a thought... We ain't pickin' the correct battles... And "liberty and freedom" are fine words but the Bush folks couldn't care less about any of that stuff... Thay don't have any partiuclar love for democracy, for that matter... No, what we have had is a war of choice fought for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time by folks who haven't been part of the so-called econimic recovery and paid for by folks who are also loosing ground in terms of quality of life... That is the reality... No UN Resolution going to change that reality... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:29 PM I'm for impeachment and conviction, too, artbrooks. I don't share your belief that conviction is impossible. It may seem so now, but I think, after the evidence is examined publicly, it will become very difficult, politically, for even the Republicans to try to defend Bush and Cheney, I've seen a few polls with the numbers for impeachment around 53 percent, Bobert. You never will, understand, either, Teribus. You have consistently shown that you do not understand our form of government nor what forms the foundation of our government and what it is that makes us a nation. It's no good trying to explain it to you, either. I know, because I've tried. We are not an empire. We are not an imperial nation. Some people have tried to make us these things, but that is not what we are, by the very nature of our founding documents, which are the highest authority in this land. Victory is meaningless if it is the victory of the oppressor... something that you clearly are incapable of understanding or appreciating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:07 PM When I see a credible poll at 53% then I'll jump on the band wagon, Carol... All I've seen and heard is 30's and low 40's... Not that I'm all that poll driven in general but in these days with yet another Repub administration being the probably the last nail in the coffin I'm not too quick to fall into any Repub traps... "We will not be fooled again"... Or will we??? And, T-zer??? What Carol said... You are not wired to understand some things... Tho I will admit that there are certainly a number of imperialist within the Bush adminisration but they do not represent the will of the average Anerican but the interstes of corporate American, big oil and the folks who profit from war... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: artbrooks Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:59 PM Terebus, if the military to which I gave over twenty years of my life wasn't being destroyed by being required to fight the wrong war, at the wrong time, against the wrong enemy, without adequate plans or equipment, I might be slightly inclined to listen to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:15 PM artbrooks is dead right. There has never been a US president impeached and convicted. Probability of conviction now, as he says, is zero. Reason: the electorate at large is not ready to pressure their representatives to convict. I believe strongly that if Bush were to invade Iran without any Congressional approval, he-- (and Cheney, who'd be in it up to his neck)-- would be impeached and convicted. But I would hope you would not be in favor of the invasion, even with that result. Only thing to do now is examine with a fine-toothed comb exactly how the propaganda campaign to bring the US public behind the Iraq invasion worked. That's the only way to prove Bush and Cheney's culpability--and possibly stoke enough outrage to bring the public at large behind a push to impeach---and convict. Right now it is not there--and as several posters have already pointed out, this means that an impeachment push now will do nothing but thoroughly alienate the--majority-- of the electorate who sees such an idea as "politics as usual" on steroids. But the investigation has to come first--before the impeachment push. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:26 PM Here you go, Bobert (it's the one at the bottom)... http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/impeach/ Do you favor or oppose the US House of Representatives beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Dick Cheney? 7/5/07 Favor Oppose Undecided All Adults 54% 40% 6% There's a poll from 2005 that, if I remember correctly was around 53. I believe that one was a Zogby poll. I'll try to find it later. Here's an interesting narrative of the events of yesterday... "This is how it happened" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: GUEST,282RA Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:29 PM >>Having been attacked on the 11th September 2001, you find yourselves, through pure leadership, to be in a position that you have neither the guts nor the will to see through, even although you are brilliantly equipped to do so.<< Ask George Bush. He started the war. He told everyone to just go about their business and not concern themselves with this little skirmish in the Middle East--that he would handle everything. He has called every shot. It is he who has not the guts or will to finish what he started. He can't secure Afghanistan because he got himself mired in Iraq, who had nothing to do with 9-11. Now he's running this "brilliantly equipped" military into the ground. Now you're expecting Americans who were told by him not to bother themselves with the Middle East to volunteer to go there and get their asses shot up? Why doesn't he just use his brilliant equipment? That was the whole idea, remember? Lean, stripped down units with heavy technology. That was the future of warfare. Didn't quite work out, did it? >>Your military have by training and by capability both the will and the resolution to see it through, but you are not prepared to stay the course and back them, and by doing so you guarantee your own demise.<< Nobody is stopping George Bush from doing anything. He has not withdrawn a single soldier nor done anything else the antiwar movement has been calling on him to do for going on 5 years now. He has done exactly as he pleased with no oversight. And those soldiers that still support him are still insisting it can be won--and that's where it stands--them telling us we're winning but unable to prove it by bringing troops home. They say the results are there and we're waiting to see them. The antiwar movement has had little to no effect on Iraq policy--it is going on exactly the way George Bush is demanding that it be allowed to. He's just incompetent and is trying to buy time so he can get out of office before his house of cards crumbles and idiots like you can blame everybody but the ones responsible. >>I would never have thought that a country so well blessed could have defeated itself so comprehensively twice in under fifty years.<< Aren't you British? You should well acquainted with that feeling. It shows how stupid Bush is to want Britain on his side after the way they embarrassed themselves a fighting a ragtag bunch of kids in the Falkland Islands. >>The first time you managed to recovered from it, this time you will not. High time you woke up to the fact that you are fighting for your survival and start acting accordingly. Britain had it in 1940, now its your turn.<< Fuck Britain. We don't exist for you. We don't care what happens to you. We never did and we're not going to start now. You're our bitch and we will do with you as we please and we will be finished with you when we say we are finished with you. Not your choice to make. You should know that. Blair did at least. He's silly and stupid but he knows who butters his bread and it's about high time the rest of you did. Don't tell us what we should be doing when you can't do it yourselves. >>Now who amongst you are going to act so that someone will state that this was your finest hour - sadly I think no-one, because when push comes to shove you are just not up to it, you are fully prepared to talk about freedom, rights and liberty, you are simply just not prepared to fight for them or defend them.<< Against whom? A dictator that posed no threat to us or the president assaulting our constitution and eradicating out habeus corpus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:33 PM Ron, the impeachment push is what's going to bring about the investigation. Not the other way around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:37 PM Now who amongst you are going to act so that someone will state that this was your finest hour - sadly I think no-one, because when push comes to shove you are just not up to it, you are fully prepared to talk about freedom, rights and liberty, you are simply just not prepared to fight for them or defend them. LOL Actually, the correct answer to this question is Dennis Kucinich. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:47 PM For those who want to help, here's what's needed right now... http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=156831770&blogID=326746475 Dennis Kucinich is asking for emails supporting impeachment and he will deliver them to Pelosi! Here you go: info@dennis4president.com ********************************* There's almost always some strange twist to how things move through Congress. The most recent example was just this past Tuesday, Nov. 6th, when 165 Republicans voted to force a debate on the impeachment of Vice President Dick Cheney, and Democrats voted against it. Somehow both parties thought that an open debate about the crimes of Dick Cheney would embarrass the Democrats. Here is what happened: As promised, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (OH) requested a floor vote on H.Res. 799 (formerly H.Res. 333), a bill he had introduced to move a process to impeach Vice President Dick Cheney forward. Rep. Steny Hoyer -- who as Majority Leader is in the second highest position in the House -- moved to table the bill. Then all hell broke loose, as 165 Republicans voted with Rep. Kucinich and 85 other brave Democrats to force a debate on impeachment. Determined to block that debate, Rep. Hoyer moved to send H.Res. 799 back to the Judiciary Committee. That motion passed with the support of all but 5 Democrats (Kucinich, Bob Filner, Marcy Kaptur, Maxine Waters, and Ed Towns). Read a live blog of the proceedings here. United for Peace and Justice recognizes the significance of this development, and we urge you to help move this process forward. Here are some things you can do: 1. Call the House Judiciary Committee at 202-225-3951 and demand full and thorough hearings on H.Res. 799/333. 2. Sign this petition to Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic members of the House Judiciary Committee. 3. If you live in the district of a House Judiciary Committee member, call his or her office and say that you're a constituent and you want immediate hearings on H.Res. 799/333. (Click here to look up your rep and find out if he or she is on the committee.) You can also join a local Congressional District Impeachment Committee and organize activities to keep the pressure on your representative, with letters to the editor, calls to local radio talk shows, and pointed questions at every community forum attended by your representative. 4. If your representative is not on the House Judiciary Committee, call and ask him or her to co-sponsor H.Res. 799/333. (Click here to find his or her office phone numbers.) If your rep is one of the 22 who have already co-sponsored H.Res. 333, call and offer your thanks and urge him or her push for immediate hearings on H.Res. 799/333 in the House Judiciary Committee. 5. Start a media campaign, including op-ed articles on impeaching Cheney, letters-to-the-editor about the Kucinich resolution, and informational picketing in front of the offices of local media. Click here to find a media activism kit. __________________________________________ In the last link I posted, Dennis is saying that there is some interest among some members of the Judiciary Committee to start an investigation. So anything people can to do apply pressure to help move that along will make a difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:47 AM Guest 282RA: "Aren't you British? You should well acquainted with that feeling. It shows how stupid Bush is to want Britain on his side after the way they embarrassed themselves a fighting a ragtag bunch of kids in the Falkland Islands." Oh yes we know the feeling 282RA, after all WE allied with our Commonwealth were the only nation during the entire course of the "Cold War" to successfully defeat communist backed insurgencies not once but three times. While your lot were getting their arses kicked in Vietnam we were winning in Borneo having successfully defeated the insurgents in Malaysia shortly before (Took us some 17 years to do but we stuck to it and completed the task). Vietnam you cut and ran; Beirut you cut and ran; Somalia you cut and ran, not through any fault of your servicemen or women, but because of pure lack of political will at home, it is more than likely the same will happen in Iraq (where finally progress is beginning to be made, haven't heard recently from Joe Binden about how the "Surge" has failed) and in Afghanistan (Where ISAF and the US Forces are actually winning hands down). Again over a distance of some 12,000 miles (The longest ranged invasion force launched in history) we succeeded in driving out an invader who was based only 400 miles away - that was embarrassing ourselves??? The whole thing done and dusted within 3 months, our forces had the full support of the British people as, more importantly, did the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands, that was backed up by the political will to carry the task out from start to finish irrespective of what it would take. That 282RA is how you get things done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:31 PM This is what I said in my email to Nanci Pelosi... Dear Congresswoman Pelosi: History is watching you and your colleagues in the United States House of Representatives. You are now faced with the challenge of deciding upon the right course of action - for the voters of this counrry, for the country itself, and for the future generations who will be impacted by the decisions you make today. What is it that makes us a nation? Is it our shared landmass? Is it our shared culture? Is it the accumulation of experiences that makes up our history? The answer, of course, is that it is none of these things. Because each of these things is fundamentally subjective. We each experience these things in different ways, and we respond to them in different ways. It is our founding documents that make us a nation, and nothing else. Our Bill of Rights and our Constitution are what make us a nation, and without these things, we are just a bunch of people sharing a landmass with ever shifting boundaries, but no national identity. You have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. This is your first duty. This duty supercedes every other consideration that you bring to your role as a member of the Congress of the United States. If you do not uphold this duty, your role as a member of Congress becomes completely irrelevant to this nation, and if you, by inaction or by wrong action, become complicit in undermining the United States Constitution, your role as a member of Congress becomes subversive, and a perversion of the trust that is placed in you by the voters of this country. History is watching you. Do you want to be remembered by history and by future generations as the person who, through inaction or wrong action, and for the sole purpose of protecting your access to power, did not fulfill your oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States? Because if, though not holding accountable those in the Bush administration who are working very hard to destroy our Constitution, you do not fulfill your oath, you will be just as responsible as they for its destruction, and history and future generations will remember you for that. And only for that one thing. That will be your permanent legacy, and nothing you can ever do will erase or mitigate that legacy. I call upon you to take the leadership role in pressing for an investigation into the question of impeachment for Vice President Cheney and President Bush. It is time. History is watching you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Peace Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:47 PM "Democratic leaders have famously declared that impeachment is off the table. But their view does not fall in line with recent polling figures. An American Research Group poll in July found that fifty-four percent of Americans support beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Cheney. Seventy-four percent of Democrats were also in favor. " From http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1455244 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 09 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM Well, Carol, I'm not yet convinced... Yes, I read thr poll and if you look at the date of the poll and, more importantly, the other questions in the poll I believe that taking the Cheney response solely on it's own it not indicative... There is a trick that pollsters can play in asking the correct leadup questions to get a certain response to a certain question... I believe that was the case in this poll... But never-the-less, what the Dems have done since that poll is laid the groundwork to win in '08 with a very distinct "brand" which emphasizes "solutions" and "non-partisanship"... The Repubs have lived at the ideology plate for a couple decades now and have won becuase they have come off as belieiving deeply in this or that... Behind the scenes the Dems have quietly figured out just what it is that can be used to counter the Repub success formuula... They used it effectively in '06 in not being sucked into the emotionalism of gay marriages and abortion by ignoring those questions and keeping things like income inequeity, health care, the economy, education and the environment as their swords... And it worked... It has just worked here in Virginia last week where the Dems retook the state Senate after being in the minority for over 2 decades!!! Now, yes, I will allow that these gains are in part gains that they would have gotten if they did nothing because of the poor record of the Repubs but... ... they have been very disciplined and I do give them credit for that... And I give them credit for figuring out what their "brand" should be... So, here's the rub... If half of their brand is non-partisanship then an attempted impeachment of Cheney would set half of what is working for them on fire... If that were to happen I can almost predict with a good amount of certainty that they will loose their shot at the White Hosue in '08... My own opinion is that I can live with Cheney another 14 months... I think that Jim Webb and other Dems have the smarts to keep the Bush/Cheney War Machine checked as much as if the impeachment were to go forward... I also belive that I would rather fight with the Dems in Jan, '09 than fight with yet another arrogant Repub asdministration... But like I said, if I feel this impeachement movement gather real steam, outside the progressive movement, I'm willing to jump in with both feet... Until then, I'll stick with my position that we can hurt the Bush/Cheney War Machine more with Congressional investigations and hearings on the same details that would come out in an impeachment preceedings... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 09 Nov 07 - 07:09 PM I was wrong about the Zogby poll. That one was about impeaching Bush and not Cheney. Only two polls have been conducted on Cheney, the other one being only for Vermont voters (overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment). We really don't have any measurement of how much support there is for impeaching Cheney since those two polls. It could be even higher than 54 at this point. There's no way to tell for sure. But never-the-less, what the Dems have done since that poll is laid the groundwork to win in '08 with a very distinct "brand" which emphasizes "solutions" and "non-partisanship"... I don't know how you can say that. Their approval ratings are even lower than Bush's approval ratings. That's how the voters feel about their approach. On the subject of the Judiciary Committee, I read today that Congressman Wexler of Florida, a member of the Judiciary Committee, has called for hearings on the subject of impeachment. I called his office to verify, and they said it's true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: GUEST,282RA Date: 09 Nov 07 - 07:13 PM >>How about a resolution to impeach Pelosi for failing to uphold her sworn constitutional duty?<< No shit. She's been nothing but a major disappointment. Everybody has their price and she should be finding out when the pubs in Congress are asking for in order to cast yes to an impeachment. A little back-scratching here and a little feet-to-the-fire there and it could be done. She's just not interested. I think that is criminal in itself. >>Oh yes we know the feeling 282RA, after all WE allied with our Commonwealth were the only nation during the entire course of the "Cold War" to successfully defeat communist backed insurgencies not once but three times.<< But you couldn't win in Iraq and now you're leaving. Very impressive. >>While your lot were getting their arses kicked in Vietnam we were winning in Borneo having successfully defeated the insurgents in Malaysia shortly before (Took us some 17 years to do but we stuck to it and completed the task).<< Yet you jumped in as a very 2nd fiddle to help us invade Iraq knowing we have a knack for getting our asses kicked even while you clean house. What's wrong with that picture? >>Vietnam you cut and ran; Beirut you cut and ran; Somalia you cut and ran, not through any fault of your servicemen or women, but because of pure lack of political will at home, it is more than likely the same will happen in Iraq (where finally progress is beginning to be made, haven't heard recently from Joe Binden about how the "Surge" has failed) and in Afghanistan (Where ISAF and the US Forces are actually winning hands down).<< Right but the American people want so badly to lose that we're refusing to recognize these clear victories. I mean if the surge has worked--bring em home! Is the Afghan rebels are beaing beaten hands down--declare and come home! Don't tell me--show me. I don't if you're right about this or not as long as our people start coming home. So either we're winning but prefer to stay there using exhausted guys on stop-loss and mercenaries we have a pay fortune to or they won't lift a finger OR we're unable to leave because the country will go to hell if we do. Hmmm, which of those two possibilities sounds more likely to be the case? Okay, keep em there! Let us know when you're ready to come home. I'm going shopping as my great president requested I do rather than worry myself silly about what's going on in Iraq. Mission accomplished and all that, eh what? >>Again over a distance of some 12,000 miles (The longest ranged invasion force launched in history) we succeeded in driving out an invader who was based only 400 miles away - that was embarrassing ourselves???<< Man, you guys are so great!!! So why didn't you prevail in Iraq? You know Bush was too stupid to conduct that war right. But you went along like lemmings and now you're getting out before anymore of you die like lemmings. >>The whole thing done and dusted within 3 months, our forces had the full support of the British people as, more importantly, did the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands, that was backed up by the political will to carry the task out from start to finish irrespective of what it would take. That 282RA is how you get things done.<< So why are you leaving Iraq without a victory?? And if you're claiming one, why aren't we coming home? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Bobert Date: 09 Nov 07 - 07:47 PM Well, yeah, the Dems are a big disappointment... They could have eneded this stupid war a week after gaining majorities on both houses of Congress by simply "suspending the rules".... Yeah, no whwere in the US Constitution does it say that the majority party has to have 60 votes to cut off a filibuster... Those are rules that Congress itself has placed on itself... Yes, the Dems are a major disappointment... hey have been, ahhhh, purdy much forever... In a way, you have to admire to the Repubs who have told the progressive movement to shove it... That, at least, is honest... I've been a Green Party supporter and voter going back a long way so, yeah, I have no love for the Dems... I guess as I have gotten older I'd rather fight with folks who say they "feel my pain" than folks who tell me to "stick it"... Either way it's gonna be a fight 'caue there ain't much difference between the Repubs and Dems other than a few courtesies... Policy differnces??? Not much... As for the low approval ratings of Congress??? They have earned 'um, fair and square... But my real question is this... Why were the Repubs pushing the Dems last week to impeach??? Because they believed that Cheney would actually be impeached??? Think about that one... Tell ya what... I'd rather the facts be told and retold and retold about the Bush Cheney lies than get bo0gged down in a slobberknocker over impeachement where emotionalism will override the facts... Heck, you still have about 30% of the population who thinks Saddam was in on 9/11... Dop you think an impeachment movement will change that??? Well, I don't... Get the friggin' facts out there if you have to have a thousand hearings with folks saying this was a BIG LIE!!! I don'tr give a danged about revenege right now... There is a war to stop... There's some serious crap being pushed to the back burner... Lets get on the Bumocrats and demand that they ***perform*** on ending the stupid war, on exposing the lies that got us into it, about why health insurance companies can take yer friggin' money and then drop you if you get sick, about lots of real things that effect each and every one of US... Yeah, Bush and Cheney have screwed themselves... Let them twist in the wind... Time to fight the folks with the power and that is the Dems... They are the "new boss"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 09 Nov 07 - 09:46 PM It has nothing whatever to do with revenge, Bobert. It's about saving this democracy before they deal the final death blow. That's what it's about. They could have eneded this stupid war a week after gaining majorities on both houses of Congress by simply "suspending the rules".... Yeah, no whwere in the US Constitution does it say that the majority party has to have 60 votes to cut off a filibuster... Those are rules that Congress itself has placed on itself... Nancy Pelosi could end the war all by herself in a second by simply refusing to allow a vote on funding the war any further. The head of the committee that deals with funding of that sort could do the same by not allowing a funding bill to leave the committee. It wouldn't take a single vote to do it, and it wouldn't require cutting off any filibusters. They're lying when they say they need votes to do it. And they're lying because they don't want to end the war. That's why they keep funding it. But my real question is this... Why were the Repubs pushing the Dems last week to impeach??? Because they believed that Cheney would actually be impeached??? Think about that one... They knew that the people who elected the Democrats want Cheney impeached, and they forced the Democrats to show more openly the fact that they are not complying with the wishes of their voter base. I'd say it worked. Spectacularly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 10 Nov 07 - 04:34 AM Guest 282RA the UK went into Iraq in March 2003 as part of the "Coalition of the Willing" with around 45,000 troops (23% of our total armed forces). Our Sector, as defined by the US Command was the South. Once active operations against Saddam's military ended there was a progressive draw down of forces that was both planned and predicted. As Iraqi Units were trained they took over province by province, next month they will take over Basra. We will remain in a supporting training capacity for as long as the Iraqi Government want us to - We Guest282RA have done our job and have drawn down our forces accordingly. If you have a problem with that - tough shit. The US fronted up some 245,000 personnel (17% of your total armed forces) of all arms not all were atcively engaged on operations. So as far as being second fiddle goes Guest282RA our commitment of armed forces proportionally was greater than that of your country. While Britain honoured its obligations under the NATO Treaty and fully agreed with the US that Iraq left unchecked posed a threat to the region America's other allies did not - OK Guest282RA who do you want standing beside you in a tight corner France or the UK. Here's a comparison 282RA from very early on. In the South we opened up the port of Um Qasr and created employment, very quickly we were patrolling on foot in soft headgear faces uncovered, we built football pitches and played against the locals, fatalities around 170 since March 2003. Up in Fallujah very early days the US Forces arrive and find that the only building with services intact in the city is a school, so they boot the children and their teachers out of the school and take it over as their HQ. When the teachers and the parents protest they are fired upon. Patrols are undertaken from Humvees or from armoured vehicles, troops are always dressed in full combat gear, US fatalities to date 3,889. OK Guest 282RA which of the above indicates progress and implementation of a "Hearts and Minds" Policy. A concept the US Military has never ever understood and feels that it is so unimportant it does not even teach it to its Officer Corps in training. Us "Brits" on the otherhand coined the phrase, we bloody well invented it and it has worked well for us in the past. Now then Guest 282RA explain to me again how we embarrassed ourselves in the Falklands - that was your contention wasn't it? After all these were your words were'nt they: "It shows how stupid Bush is to want Britain on his side after the way they embarrassed themselves a fighting a ragtag bunch of kids in the Falkland Islands." Pssst Guest 282RA if it's embarrassment you want, what about Grenada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Nov 07 - 09:38 AM Speaking of "Coalition(s) of the Willing", I recall that Hitler was able to put together just such a coalition back in 1941 to launch an unprovoked attack on Russia. ;-) It included the Germans, the Italians (who were sort of reluctantly willing, but only just...), the Hungarians, the Finns, the Rumanians, and the Bulgarians (all enthusiastically willing). That Coalition of the Willing went nobly forward on a pre-emptive war of choice against the Soviets. A first strike. Just like Bush's war in 2003, except for one small detail: they took on someone capable of meeting them on even terms and capable even of eventually beating them. That was a serious mistake on their part, but I bet they were mighty proud of themselves for having put together a genuine "Coalition of the Willing" to fight evil and restore peace and harmony to the world! ;-) It sounds so noble and upright, doesn't it? "Coalition of the Willing". Oh my, who wouldn't want to join something like that? Only traitors, sellouts, and fellow travellers would refuse to flock to the banner, I should think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 10 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM Here's a comparison 282RA from very early on. In the South we opened up the port of Um Qasr and created employment, very quickly we were patrolling on foot in soft headgear faces uncovered, we built football pitches and played against the locals, fatalities around 170 since March 2003. Up in Fallujah very early days the US Forces arrive and find that the only building with services intact in the city is a school, so they boot the children and their teachers out of the school and take it over as their HQ. When the teachers and the parents protest they are fired upon. Patrols are undertaken from Humvees or from armoured vehicles, troops are always dressed in full combat gear, US fatalities to date 3,889. This is a perfect example of why the US cannot be trusted to do the job of winning the peace in Iraq. We aren't making things better there, we are making them worse. But it's not incompetence that's causing this. The Bush administration intends for it to work out this way, because it has been their plan all along to create a justification for permanent bases and a permanent US occupation in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Nov 07 - 06:08 PM Correct. They are not there to free Iraq. They are there to dominate Iraq by armed force, divide its people against each other, and establish permanent bases in that region, and use those bases as staging areas for further wars. Iraq was just one stage in a larger plan. Bush may think it was all his idea. It wasn't. Bush may think he's really in charge. He isn't. He's temporary and expendable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Barry Finn Date: 10 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM We are in complete opposition to our founding fathers! On all fronts! Free Iraq? We are succeeding, where? Tell that to the many thousands of dead Iraqis! Their nation is about to split in 3, tell that to those that could are gone & to those that aren't gone but are praying they could go & to those that are dead. They aren't giving thanks to the "Coalition of the Willing" & neither are their surviving relatives & neighbors who will hate US for generations to come. We're doing the right thing? NOT!! No one has done their job, not the US, not Britan, not Austrailia, none of the "Willing". Yes, I'd would rather have had France, Russia & Germany stand in our corner before we took on the job in the 1st place. They had it right from the start & the balls enough to say so, that is who Britan & others should have been paying attention (20/20 hind sight sucks) not following an idiot like our man Bush, that part is on your head. We have more than our share to be guilty of here, don't go around thinking that because you may have had some straw to grab on to that you are free from any blame or shame. Someday hopefully heads will roll around the world for what the "Willing" have done. T, you are always trying to up hold you & yours from being in any part of the trash heap that you're playing in & then you try to clear your way from out under the stink. But when you play in the sewer with the rest of the low life your stink is just as bad & you are just as much the low life that you play with. You cannot find a silver lining in a sewer that's become a blood bath just because you upheld your end of cesspool! You shouldn't have gotten into the swimming/cess-pool in the 1st place! Reach, throw, row or go, both we & you dove in head 1st without thought & nobody went in kicking either, except those of us who were steamrolled over. But now that you're there & hopefully on you way out, you can't just wash off the stink, it doesn't work that way, sorry, we will all be trying to cleanse our souls & wash our hands of this for a mighty long time. We will all pay dearly, starting in the present. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Barry Finn Date: 10 Nov 07 - 08:58 PM The longer thse guys are in office the more we will pay & the longer that payment will last. Impeachment should wait for nothing, not timing, not policy, not politics & not the polls. When there is good cause it should be acted upon right away, that's what it's there for, so there is no slippery slope to slide down when it becommes to late. No one should be in a position that Bush now sits in. He's split our nation, pit our government against it's own citizens as well as invading other nations & doing the same thing there. He's violated our Constitution as well as tearing it apart bit by bit, he's tossed out 1000 yrs of basic western law & now he sits in the position of being one small st away from declaring himself a dictator. The founding fathers installed checks & balances so itcould never come this close. We are already to close, the time has lasped, he should've been impeached already, there is no time to lose. We are already too vulnerable!!!! Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:39 AM Disagree completely CarolC/Little Hawk/Barry Finn. Things are not worse in either Iraq or Afghanistan, anyone stating that must have a very convenient memory, not that any of you, or the media spin doctors that you listen to, ever paid much attention to what was happening in either country before when Saddam and the Ba'athists ruled one and the Taleban ruled the other. In exactly the same way as none of you give a damn about what is happening in Darfur, or Burma for that matter because you cannot blame it on GWB, or the USA. Under Saddam and his sons the Iraqi population had no hope whatsoever of any improvement in their lot. The only direction things were headed in Iraq was downwards. Left alone and ignored Saddam's main trading partners (Russia, China, France and Germany) would have pressed for ending UN sanctions years ago (Not that they were ever effective anyway). Saddam's rearmament programme would have clutched into high gear the minute the whistle had been blown on Iran's secret uranium enrichment plants (Anyone thinking that Saddam would have sat back and done nothing while Iran made itself nuclear capable is living in cloud-cuckooland). Things are slowly improving in both countries and will continue to do so, provided the fledgling governments of both are given the support they require. So far I have seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that the US want to remain in Iraq or Afghanistan for one minute more than they have to. They are there at the moment under the terms of a UN Mandate that is reviewed in effect every six months and at the request of the elected government of Iraq. The US has no interest whatsoever in "controlling" the middle-east, it has neither the will or the means to do so. To project power in the region, as long as the US Navy remains at it current strength, the US has no need of permanent land bases in Iraq, which are vulnerable to attack - a deployed Carrier Strike Force on the other hand is not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM From todays BBC coverage: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7089168.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Barry Finn Date: 11 Nov 07 - 08:16 AM "It's getting better all the time" You're the only one whistlng that tune, blind & deaf. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 11 Nov 07 - 10:57 AM I might well be the one whistling that tune Barry but if so I would not be the one that was either deaf or blind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Nov 07 - 11:46 AM I don't think thinks are getting better in Iraq, Teribus, I think they've gotten a lot worse...ALTHOUGH...I might add...they were not exactly ducky before the Americans and the Coalition of the Bribed and Persuaded went in. However, Iraq under Saddam prior to his totally misguided and disastrous attack on Kuwait was the most modernized, liberal, and westernized country in the Arab world and was in far better shape as a society than it is now. It was doing well economically, most of its citizens' lives were far more secure than at present, its museums had not been pillaged, its cities had not been smashed up, its Shiites and Sunnis had not been set at each other's throats in sectarian violence, and it was not teetering on the edge of becoming an Islamic fundamentalist regime in alliance with Iran. Iraq is so much worse off now than it was before the 2003 invasion that it amazes me anyone could think they are better off for it. No one is better off for it, with the possible exception of the Kurds, and a few Shiite political/religious bosses. Americans are worse off. Most ordinary Iraqis are far worse off...or else they're dead. You're supporting a bankrupt and wrongful political policy, Teribus, just like loyal soldiers and people anywhere throughout history who have made the initial error of backing the wrong people. It's perfectly understandable. Millions of Germans and Japanese made that same mistake in WWII, they did it in all honesty, and they did not realize at the time that they were making a mistake. Lots of people can be found backing any given policy, no matter what it is, and they all think they're right. Pre-emptive, unprovoked attacks of choice on small countries are not right. They are illegal aggression, they are a violation of international law, they are what Hitler and Tojo and Mussolini did in the 30's and 40's, and you are backing the wrong people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Barry Finn Date: 11 Nov 07 - 11:49 AM If you think things are going well or that they're getting better "T" then there is something wrong with your vision. After all before this thing got under way both you & I were aruging that this war: you; this war was a good & proper thing & me; that this war was wrong & we'd be in a mess before we knew it. Who's vision is impeared? Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: CarolC Date: 11 Nov 07 - 12:33 PM The proof will be in the pudding, Teribus. You yourself have pointed out the stark differences between the job that has been/is being done by the UK forces in Iraq and the job that has been/is being done by the US forces in Iraq. And as has been noted, the UK forces are in the process of significantly drawing down their numbers and handing the job of providing security over to Iraqis. The US, on the other hand, has many, many times more forces in that country, and we are being prepared in this country for the continuation of the war in Iraq beyond the year 2012. The US intends to have permanent bases in Iraq, and it intends to keep a permanent occupation force in that country. The government of the US will do whatever is necessary to create a pretext for keeping a permanent occupation in Iraq. The examples of incompetence that you yourself have noted are not by accident. They are by design. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Teribus Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:09 PM "However, Iraq under Saddam prior to his totally misguided and disastrous attack on Kuwait was the most modernized, liberal, and westernized country in the Arab world and was in far better shape as a society than it is now. It was doing well economically, most of its citizens' lives were far more secure than at present, its museums had not been pillaged, its cities had not been smashed up, its Shiites and Sunnis had not been set at each other's throats in sectarian violence," - Little Hawk Saddam ruled Iraq through fear and intimidation on a massive scale for just under 24 years Little Hawk. On average depending on what figures you take as being true he murdered 154 to 282 of his subjects every day of his time in power. The Shia and Sunni were not at each others throats because the Sunni had their boots firmly on the necks of those Shia Arabs and those necks were pressed against the ground, if they complained or tried to do anything about it they were killed. While it's museums had not been pillaged the number of mass graves in the countryside increased annually, but you have somehow managed to overlook these trifles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Peace Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM I can't talk fancy like y'all who post erudite and incisive comments reagrding Cheney. I'll be brief: That sumbitch gotta go! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly) From: Leadfingers Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM 100 |
