BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

Well, Carol, I'm not yet convinced... Yes, I read thr poll and if you look at the date of the poll and, more importantly, the other questions in the poll I believe that taking the Cheney response solely on it's own it not indicative... There is a trick that pollsters can play in asking the correct leadup questions to get a certain response to a certain question... I believe that was the case in this poll...

But never-the-less, what the Dems have done since that poll is laid the groundwork to win in '08 with a very distinct "brand" which emphasizes "solutions" and "non-partisanship"... The Repubs have lived at the ideology plate for a couple decades now and have won becuase they have come off as belieiving deeply in this or that... Behind the scenes the Dems have quietly figured out just what it is that can be used to counter the Repub success formuula... They used it effectively in '06 in not being sucked into the emotionalism of gay marriages and abortion by ignoring those questions and keeping things like income inequeity, health care, the economy, education and the environment as their swords... And it worked... It has just worked here in Virginia last week where the Dems retook the state Senate after being in the minority for over 2 decades!!!

Now, yes, I will allow that these gains are in part gains that they would have gotten if they did nothing because of the poor record of the Repubs but...

... they have been very disciplined and I do give them credit for that... And I give them credit for figuring out what their "brand" should be...

So, here's the rub... If half of their brand is non-partisanship then an attempted impeachment of Cheney would set half of what is working for them on fire... If that were to happen I can almost predict with a good amount of certainty that they will loose their shot at the White Hosue in '08...

My own opinion is that I can live with Cheney another 14 months... I think that Jim Webb and other Dems have the smarts to keep the Bush/Cheney War Machine checked as much as if the impeachment were to go forward... I also belive that I would rather fight with the Dems in Jan, '09 than fight with yet another arrogant Repub asdministration...

But like I said, if I feel this impeachement movement gather real steam, outside the progressive movement, I'm willing to jump in with both feet...

Until then, I'll stick with my position that we can hurt the Bush/Cheney War Machine more with Congressional investigations and hearings on the same details that would come out in an impeachment preceedings...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:47 PM

"Democratic leaders have famously declared that impeachment is off the table. But their view does not fall in line with recent polling figures. An American Research Group poll in July found that fifty-four percent of Americans support beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Cheney. Seventy-four percent of Democrats were also in favor. "

From

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1455244

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:31 PM

This is what I said in my email to Nanci Pelosi...


Dear Congresswoman Pelosi:

History is watching you and your colleagues in the United States House of Representatives. You are now faced with the challenge of deciding upon the right course of action - for the voters of this counrry, for the country itself, and for the future generations who will be impacted by the decisions you make today.

What is it that makes us a nation? Is it our shared landmass? Is it our shared culture? Is it the accumulation of experiences that makes up our history? The answer, of course, is that it is none of these things. Because each of these things is fundamentally subjective. We each experience these things in different ways, and we respond to them in different ways.

It is our founding documents that make us a nation, and nothing else. Our Bill of Rights and our Constitution are what make us a nation, and without these things, we are just a bunch of people sharing a landmass with ever shifting boundaries, but no national identity.

You have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. This is your first duty. This duty supercedes every other consideration that you bring to your role as a member of the Congress of the United States. If you do not uphold this duty, your role as a member of Congress becomes completely irrelevant to this nation, and if you, by inaction or by wrong action, become complicit in undermining the United States Constitution, your role as a member of Congress becomes subversive, and a perversion of the trust that is placed in you by the voters of this country.

History is watching you. Do you want to be remembered by history and by future generations as the person who, through inaction or wrong action, and for the sole purpose of protecting your access to power, did not fulfill your oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States? Because if, though not holding accountable those in the Bush administration who are working very hard to destroy our Constitution, you do not fulfill your oath, you will be just as responsible as they for its destruction, and history and future generations will remember you for that. And only for that one thing. That will be your permanent legacy, and nothing you can ever do will erase or mitigate that legacy.

I call upon you to take the leadership role in pressing for an investigation into the question of impeachment for Vice President Cheney and President Bush. It is time. History is watching you.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:47 AM

Guest 282RA:

"Aren't you British? You should well acquainted with that feeling. It shows how stupid Bush is to want Britain on his side after the way they embarrassed themselves a fighting a ragtag bunch of kids in the Falkland Islands."

Oh yes we know the feeling 282RA, after all WE allied with our Commonwealth were the only nation during the entire course of the "Cold War" to successfully defeat communist backed insurgencies not once but three times. While your lot were getting their arses kicked in Vietnam we were winning in Borneo having successfully defeated the insurgents in Malaysia shortly before (Took us some 17 years to do but we stuck to it and completed the task). Vietnam you cut and ran; Beirut you cut and ran; Somalia you cut and ran, not through any fault of your servicemen or women, but because of pure lack of political will at home, it is more than likely the same will happen in Iraq (where finally progress is beginning to be made, haven't heard recently from Joe Binden about how the "Surge" has failed) and in Afghanistan (Where ISAF and the US Forces are actually winning hands down).

Again over a distance of some 12,000 miles (The longest ranged invasion force launched in history) we succeeded in driving out an invader who was based only 400 miles away - that was embarrassing ourselves??? The whole thing done and dusted within 3 months, our forces had the full support of the British people as, more importantly, did the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands, that was backed up by the political will to carry the task out from start to finish irrespective of what it would take. That 282RA is how you get things done.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:47 PM

For those who want to help, here's what's needed right now...


http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=156831770&blogID=326746475

Dennis Kucinich is asking for emails supporting impeachment and he will deliver them to Pelosi!

Here you go:
[e-mail]

*********************************
There's almost always some strange twist to how things move through Congress. The most recent example was just this past Tuesday, Nov. 6th, when 165 Republicans voted to force a debate on the impeachment of Vice President Dick Cheney, and Democrats voted against it. Somehow both parties thought that an open debate about the crimes of Dick Cheney would embarrass the Democrats.

Here is what happened: As promised, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (OH) requested a floor vote on H.Res. 799 (formerly H.Res. 333), a bill he had introduced to move a process to impeach Vice President Dick Cheney forward. Rep. Steny Hoyer -- who as Majority Leader is in the second highest position in the House -- moved to table the bill. Then all hell broke loose, as 165 Republicans voted with Rep. Kucinich and 85 other brave Democrats to force a debate on impeachment.

Determined to block that debate, Rep. Hoyer moved to send H.Res. 799 back to the Judiciary Committee. That motion passed with the support of all but 5 Democrats (Kucinich, Bob Filner, Marcy Kaptur, Maxine Waters, and Ed Towns). Read a live blog of the proceedings here.

United for Peace and Justice recognizes the significance of this development, and we urge you to help move this process forward. Here are some things you can do:

1. Call the House Judiciary Committee at 202-225-3951 and demand full and thorough hearings on H.Res. 799/333.

2. Sign this petition to Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic members of the House Judiciary Committee.

3. If you live in the district of a House Judiciary Committee member, call his or her office and say that you're a constituent and you want immediate hearings on H.Res. 799/333. (Click here to look up your rep and find out if he or she is on the committee.) You can also join a local Congressional District Impeachment Committee and organize activities to keep the pressure on your representative, with letters to the editor, calls to local radio talk shows, and pointed questions at every community forum attended by your representative.

4. If your representative is not on the House Judiciary Committee, call and ask him or her to co-sponsor H.Res. 799/333. (Click here to find his or her office phone numbers.) If your rep is one of the 22 who have already co-sponsored H.Res. 333, call and offer your thanks and urge him or her push for immediate hearings on H.Res. 799/333 in the House Judiciary Committee.

5. Start a media campaign, including op-ed articles on impeaching Cheney, letters-to-the-editor about the Kucinich resolution, and informational picketing in front of the offices of local media. Click here to find a media activism kit.

__________________________________________

In the last link I posted, Dennis is saying that there is some interest among some members of the Judiciary Committee to start an investigation. So anything people can to do apply pressure to help move that along will make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:37 PM

Now who amongst you are going to act so that someone will state that this was your finest hour - sadly I think no-one, because when push comes to shove you are just not up to it, you are fully prepared to talk about freedom, rights and liberty, you are simply just not prepared to fight for them or defend them.

LOL


Actually, the correct answer to this question is Dennis Kucinich.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:33 PM

Ron, the impeachment push is what's going to bring about the investigation. Not the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:29 PM

>>Having been attacked on the 11th September 2001, you find yourselves, through pure leadership, to be in a position that you have neither the guts nor the will to see through, even although you are brilliantly equipped to do so.<<

Ask George Bush. He started the war. He told everyone to just go about their business and not concern themselves with this little skirmish in the Middle East--that he would handle everything. He has called every shot. It is he who has not the guts or will to finish what he started.

He can't secure Afghanistan because he got himself mired in Iraq, who had nothing to do with 9-11. Now he's running this "brilliantly equipped" military into the ground. Now you're expecting Americans who were told by him not to bother themselves with the Middle East to volunteer to go there and get their asses shot up? Why doesn't he just use his brilliant equipment? That was the whole idea, remember? Lean, stripped down units with heavy technology. That was the future of warfare. Didn't quite work out, did it?

>>Your military have by training and by capability both the will and the resolution to see it through, but you are not prepared to stay the course and back them, and by doing so you guarantee your own demise.<<

Nobody is stopping George Bush from doing anything. He has not withdrawn a single soldier nor done anything else the antiwar movement has been calling on him to do for going on 5 years now. He has done exactly as he pleased with no oversight. And those soldiers that still support him are still insisting it can be won--and that's where it stands--them telling us we're winning but unable to prove it by bringing troops home. They say the results are there and we're waiting to see them.

The antiwar movement has had little to no effect on Iraq policy--it is going on exactly the way George Bush is demanding that it be allowed to. He's just incompetent and is trying to buy time so he can get out of office before his house of cards crumbles and idiots like you can blame everybody but the ones responsible.

>>I would never have thought that a country so well blessed could have defeated itself so comprehensively twice in under fifty years.<<

Aren't you British? You should well acquainted with that feeling. It shows how stupid Bush is to want Britain on his side after the way they embarrassed themselves a fighting a ragtag bunch of kids in the Falkland Islands.

>>The first time you managed to recovered from it, this time you will not. High time you woke up to the fact that you are fighting for your survival and start acting accordingly. Britain had it in 1940, now its your turn.<<

Fuck Britain. We don't exist for you. We don't care what happens to you. We never did and we're not going to start now. You're our bitch and we will do with you as we please and we will be finished with you when we say we are finished with you. Not your choice to make. You should know that. Blair did at least. He's silly and stupid but he knows who butters his bread and it's about high time the rest of you did. Don't tell us what we should be doing when you can't do it yourselves.

>>Now who amongst you are going to act so that someone will state that this was your finest hour - sadly I think no-one, because when push comes to shove you are just not up to it, you are fully prepared to talk about freedom, rights and liberty, you are simply just not prepared to fight for them or defend them.<<

Against whom? A dictator that posed no threat to us or the president assaulting our constitution and eradicating out habeus corpus?

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:26 PM

Here you go, Bobert (it's the one at the bottom)...

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/impeach/


Do you favor or oppose the US House of Representatives beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Dick Cheney?

7/5/07         Favor         Oppose Undecided

All Adults         54%         40%         6%


There's a poll from 2005 that, if I remember correctly was around 53. I believe that one was a Zogby poll. I'll try to find it later.


Here's an interesting narrative of the events of yesterday...

"This is how it happened"

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:15 PM

artbrooks is dead right. There has never been a US president impeached and convicted.
Probability of conviction now, as he says, is zero. Reason: the electorate at large is not ready to pressure their representatives to convict. I believe strongly that if Bush were to invade Iran without any Congressional approval, he-- (and Cheney, who'd be in it up to his neck)-- would be impeached and convicted. But I would hope you would not be in favor of the invasion, even with that result.

Only thing to do now is examine with a fine-toothed comb exactly how the propaganda campaign to bring the US public behind the Iraq invasion worked. That's the only way to prove Bush and Cheney's culpability--and possibly stoke enough outrage to bring the public at large behind a push to impeach---and convict. Right now it is not there--and as several posters have already pointed out, this means that an impeachment push now will do nothing but thoroughly alienate the--majority-- of the electorate who sees such an idea as "politics as usual" on steroids.

But the investigation has to come first--before the impeachment push.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:59 PM

Terebus, if the military to which I gave over twenty years of my life wasn't being destroyed by being required to fight the wrong war, at the wrong time, against the wrong enemy, without adequate plans or equipment, I might be slightly inclined to listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:07 PM

When I see a credible poll at 53% then I'll jump on the band wagon, Carol...

All I've seen and heard is 30's and low 40's...

Not that I'm all that poll driven in general but in these days with yet another Repub administration being the probably the last nail in the coffin I'm not too quick to fall into any Repub traps...

"We will not be fooled again"...

Or will we???

And, T-zer??? What Carol said... You are not wired to understand some things... Tho I will admit that there are certainly a number of imperialist within the Bush adminisration but they do not represent the will of the average Anerican but the interstes of corporate American, big oil and the folks who profit from war...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:29 PM

I'm for impeachment and conviction, too, artbrooks. I don't share your belief that conviction is impossible. It may seem so now, but I think, after the evidence is examined publicly, it will become very difficult, politically, for even the Republicans to try to defend Bush and Cheney,

I've seen a few polls with the numbers for impeachment around 53 percent, Bobert.

You never will, understand, either, Teribus. You have consistently shown that you do not understand our form of government nor what forms the foundation of our government and what it is that makes us a nation. It's no good trying to explain it to you, either. I know, because I've tried. We are not an empire. We are not an imperial nation. Some people have tried to make us these things, but that is not what we are, by the very nature of our founding documents, which are the highest authority in this land. Victory is meaningless if it is the victory of the oppressor... something that you clearly are incapable of understanding or appreciating.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:19 PM

No, T-Bird... Waht had the reat of the world fallin' down holdin' their sides in laughter was the impeachemnt of Bill Clinton for getting a friggin' blow job...

As for guts??? You are very much mistaken... It ain't about guts... It's about attacking the right people... Irag had nothing to do with 9/11 and its there that is draining our tax dollars and killing our economy...

Tell ya' what, if George Bush siad tomorrow that he needed folks to go to Sadan then I'd give it a thought...

We ain't pickin' the correct battles...

And "liberty and freedom" are fine words but the Bush folks couldn't care less about any of that stuff... Thay don't have any partiuclar love for democracy, for that matter...

No, what we have had is a war of choice fought for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time by folks who haven't been part of the so-called econimic recovery and paid for by folks who are also loosing ground in terms of quality of life...

That is the reality...

No UN Resolution going to change that reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:06 PM

Artbrooks is all for impeachment and conviction. Now for life of me I simply just cannot understand why. There are absolutely no grounds for the one and no evidence for the other.

You, i.e. most on this forum, are demonstrating and advocating the traits that caused the Soviets and the rest of the world to laugh aloud at the lot of you during the "Jimmy Carter" years.

Having been attacked on the 11th September 2001, you find yourselves, through pure leadership, to be in a position that you have neither the guts nor the will to see through, even although you are brilliantly equipped to do so. Your military have by training and by capability both the will and the resolution to see it through, but you are not prepared to stay the course and back them, and by doing so you guarantee your own demise.


I would never have thought that a country so well blessed could have defeated itself so comprehensively twice in under fifty years. The first time you managed to recovered from it, this time you will not. High time you woke up to the fact that you are fighting for your survival and start acting accordingly. Britain had it in 1940, now its your turn. Now who amongst you are going to act so that someone will state that this was your finest hour - sadly I think no-one, because when push comes to shove you are just not up to it, you are fully prepared to talk about freedom, rights and liberty, you are simply just not prepared to fight for them or defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

Yeah, Carol, and I have read some of the polls but with numbers, at best, in the 40% for inmpeachment and at worst at 30% if you do the math then you see that such a tact would piss off between 60 and 70% of the voters...

Now back to what I was saying... The margin for victory in winning the White House is very, very small... One mis-step and they will again be defeated... They need to coax at least one Southern state out of the Southern Stategey... My state, Virginia is probably the only one in play and that is assuming that the Dems can win Florida...

I can absolutely guarentee you that on the heels of an impeachment that Virginians will turn back toward the Repubs... This will happen... All I hear and read in Virginia newspapers is that the current crop of Dems that have been winning are winning because they don't come off a s Bush-haters... They are talking about issues...

Do you realize that it was the Repubs in the House who were voting for impeachment??? What does that tell you??? Well, it tells me that their pollsters see impeachemnt as another Swift Boat and impeachement is a Repub dream come true...

Hey, I love democracynow... I love Amy Goodman... I love being part of the left...

But what I hate is when the left falls into a Swift Boat trap...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM

I am all for impeachment and conviction. The probability of conviction is exactly zero. Impeachment without conviction equals exoneration.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:20 PM

Actually, Bobert, there have been a few polls that have shown that the majority of voters want impeachment. They don't see it as politics at all, but a restoration of our Constitution and our democracy. That's certainly how Dennis sees it.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

Yes, I understand your viewpoint on that, Bobert.

It's ironical. The Republicans pretend they are the party that is against "Big Government". Ha!!! They have increased the authority of Big Government and reduced the civil rights of the ordinary citizen. They have increased surveillance of citizens and opened up extra-legal and unconstitutional torture facilities offshore. They have enormously increased federal spending and the national debt. When they hire private contractors to do government work, what do they pay them with? Tax money, that's what! Private contractors are now serving as mercenary soldiers for this government, at home and abroad, and getting paid big bucks from the public purse to do it.

What a con game the Republicans are playing. They're the most draconian Big Goverment in action that I've seen yet in the USA. They ARE what they accuse others of being...terrorists and promoters of authoritarian BIG government.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:32 PM

Well, waht we have is a terribly flawed situation...

Poll after poll tells politicans that the American people are fed up with "politics"... The Repubs have been deft at turning everything the Dems attempt to do as "politics"... If you think the Swift Boat Liars havd a field day wtih John Kerry you ain't seen nuthin' if the Dems push this too hard...

And what screwed this up was the impeachment of Bill Clinton... It left a very sour taste in alot of moderates minds... Moderates are the new swing vote block and the Dems know it... So do the Repubs and the moderates are telling pollsters t6hey are sick of politics...

This has nothing to do with the crimes that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Peral/Wolfowitz War Machine have perpetrated on the planet... Those are a different subject...

If we look back on the discussions that have occured here in Mudville since the Mad-Dash-to-Iraq we see that there isn't any new territory... The facts are out there... Even if the House began "serious" impeachemnt proceedings today, the Repubs could filibuster and filibuster and use parlimentary manuvers to hold the Dems off well into next year...

Plus, think about this... There are a lot of Denms in the House who have been elected from Red States... It would be suicide for them...

And let's look at this in a differnt light... We have serious problems that need fixes... As Ron Paul has so aptly pointed out we have a foriegn policy that if continued witl take us down... We have a serious problem with distribution of wealth, health care, global warming...

I'd rather see the energy spent on those problems than trying to get Bush and/or Cheney out a couple months earlier...

Make no bones about it, these problems will be shoved aside if impeachement takes hold...

Will impeaching either or both of these creeps get US out of Iraq one day earlier??? I doubt it...

If the dems wanted to get US out of Iraq they could have done it by suspending the rules ("The Nuclear Option") and the war would be over...

So for my anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-Cheney friends here, I'm 110% with you on just how screwed up these creeps have gotten our country... There is absolutley no difference in our thinking here...

But these creeps are going to do what they are going to do and the only way to stop them is for the Dems to out flank them in framing of issues... In this climate a frontal attack is not the smartest idea...

Yeah, I'm one of those who most folks think should be the strongest behind such an attack but, if I'm a chess player and want to win, or if I'm in fist fight and want to win, flailing ain't gonna get me there... That's is my opinion...

Now with that said, if this movement picks up steam, I'd like the opportunity to revisit my thinking, regarless of my cureent opinion as to the wisdom of a frontal attack on Bush and/or Cheney...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM

having nothing to show for it except an even more divided Congress

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I don't agree with your characterization of what we and the Congress would have to show for it. I know that protecting and defending our Constitution is the most important duty the members of our government are charged with. That's why they must take the oath to protect and defend our Constitution in order to be allowed to take office. Nothing else they do will ever matter if they allow our Constitution to be undermined or destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM

The Democrats in Congress have a clear choice - spending a lot of time, effort and money doing "the right thing", and having nothing to show for it except an even more divided Congress or compromising and getting at least something done, no matter how far it might be from the ideal. Since I'm the one who pays their salaries, I know what my choice is.   Others are entirely entitled to their own opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:17 PM

Dead right, Carol. They would finally be doing their job.

The Emperor (meaning the entire government, both the president AND congress) has no clothes...and the public knows it. That's why their ratings are low. They are both failing the country and betraying their oaths. They are not protecting and defending the Constitution, they are protecting and defending their own personal interests (in a political sense) and the interests of their primary financial backers in the corporate sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

Impeachment proceedings will eliminate any remaining possibility of anything at all being accomplished by this Congress

The way I see it, if they have impeachment proceedings, the most important thing of all will be accomplished... they will have - finally - fulfilled their oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. The reason their numbers are so low is because of the war, and the reason the Democrats' numbers are so low is because they campaigned on the promise to end the war, and they're not living up to that promise. And some of them even campaigned on the promise to impeach the president and vice president, and they're not living up to that promise either.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM

A Bush veto got overridden today.

Maybe this will get the ball rolling.

But the sad truth is that the democrats are so spineless that even if they had the votes to impeach, they wouldn't have the guts to go through with it.

Pelosi didn't table it because the wouldn't be enough votes, she just tabled it. She's a lousy, rotten backstabbing, ugly bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 04:11 PM

Congress already has an approval rating hovering around 40%, primarily because they haven't been able to accomplish much since the Dems took over. This is, as anyone who looks at the numbers can easily see, because any legislation has to get through a Senate that is nearly evenly divided and then withstand a veto threat - which (in practical terms) means any significant legislation has to have a 2/3 majority in both the House and Senate.

Impeachment proceedings will eliminate any remaining possibility of anything at all being accomplished by this Congress, at least until after the 2008 elections, and it will open the very real possibility, since Congress' approval rate will only go lower, of voters becoming even more fed up and the Reps regaining control.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM

Nixon resigned because he knew he was going to be impeached if he did not resign first. And so did everyone else. That is why people say that he was "impeached", although it isn't literally true. He was simply about to be impeached, that's all.

I would agree with Carol that impeachment proceeding would nail the coffin shut on the Republicans for the next election, not hurt the Democrats. That's my opinion. I might be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 01:23 PM

Time will tell, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:19 AM

Impeachment is not possible under the current circumstances... Therer are too many Repubs in Congress... Yes, Nixon was headed for impeachment had he not resigned but their was a solid Dem Congress... Bill Clinton was impeached by a solid Repub. Congress...

The numbers aren't there, Carol, to pull it off...

Rather than the Dems "wasting tax money" and time trying to pull off something that the Repubs would certainly accuse them of as "show boating", which would ceratinly be seen by the general public as somehting they have come to hate: politics... the Dems will be better served by continuing to use hearings as the vehicle to carry the real story...

Do I like it this way??? Heck, no, I don't... If the numbers were there to actually pull it off, I'd say "Go for it" but they aren't...

The Dems don't have much margin for error in the '08 presidential election... My own state, Virginia, might be the swing state that elects a Dem... Virginias ain't gonna vote Dem on the heals of a failed impeachemnt attempt...

This is reality, Carol... Pure and simple reality...

But I still loves you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:07 AM

Good point, Teribus. However, as with the common misperception among voters in the US that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11, it is also a common misperception that Nixon was impeached. As you have noted, even I forgot for a while that he was not. On the other hand,the US House of Representatives did carry out investigations and hearings on the subject of impeaching Nixon, and they passed three articles of impeachment. It was a safe bet that the Senate would convict, and that's why Nixon resigned, so it was only Nixon's resignation that prevented his impeachment. I think it's an honest mistake for people to think he was actually impeached.

Nevertheless, under the circumstances, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use Nixon and Watergate as an example of a case in which carrying on an impeachment investigation and passing articles of impeachment will not cause a backlash, but on the contrary, will help to restore a greater measure of democracy in this country. Had he been impeached rather than having resigned, I think the result would have been the same.

Concerning your supposition that none of the evidence would stand up, John Dean, former counsel to Nixon (an attorney), who was serving in the Nixon administration during Watergate, says otherwise. I think I'll trust him before I'll trust you on this subject.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/06/1354218


Plus, the evidence doesn't need to stand up in a court of law. It only needs to stand up in the US House of Representatives, and in the US Senate. Their standard for impeachment is left entirely up to them to determine. If they believe that the president has not faithfully executed his oath of office (remember - the oath he takes is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States), or if it is their opinion that he has committed "high crimes and misdemeanors", they can impeach. Because impeachment is not a legal proceeding. It is a political proceeding. The only consequence of being convicted in an impeachment proceeding is to be removed from office.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 01:54 AM

Only problem with that CarolC was that Richard Nixon was NEVER impeached, he resigned, I would have thought as an American that you would have known that.

Also gone through the link supplied relating to Dennis's impeachment proceedings aimed at Dick Cheney, Article by Article and reading through the "so-called evidence". Thankfully for Mr Kucinich it is not put before a court of law, as not one shred of what he imagines is evidence would stand up. Equally thankfully there are enough members who think in legal terms for a correct decision to be reached - i.e. the impeachment process will go nowhere. Your self serving politicians in the US have got more important things to think about over the next twelve months - their re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:27 PM

When Nixon was impeached, it didn't result in a Republican getting elected in the next election. It got Jimmy Carter elected. The reason is because the majority of people saw that Nixon was not acting in their best interests or in the country's best interests. When Clinton was impeached, a lot of people got pissed off because they saw that the people trying to impeach him were not acting in their best interests or the country's best interests. But that didn't stop a Republican from getting elected in the next election cycle.

If Cheney and/or Bush get impeached, people will see the evidence for themselves and, as with Nixon, the majority of people will see that Bush and Cheney are not acting in the best interests of the country or the majority of Americans, and as with Nixon, I don't think that will result in a backlash against the Democrats by the majority of voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 09:03 PM

Problem is that you and I don't represent the general electorate... If we did then I'd have both Bush and Cheney impeached but also with one ways tickets to Iraq...

Reality, tho, is that in doing so we'll end up with Rudi Guilani... If you want President Rudi then go ahead with an impeachment that won't work anyway...

That is the reality of the situation, Carol... Americans are still purdy pissed off about the last impeachment... It was a collasal waste to tax payers money and a collasal waste of time... If the Dems want to insure a lose in '08 they could do this...

This ain't got one thing to do with the guilt of Bush and Cheney but 100% about the Dems chances of winning it all in '08... They ain't stupid...

Yeah, you and I might want it to be different but it ain't... It is what it is...

Gear up to fight with the Dems and leave these current crooks for the historians... They will get it right...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 08:08 PM

That army of street soldiers needs a carrot and a stick, Bobert, if they're going to have any effect on how the Democrats do things. The carrot is their votes, and the stick is impeachment. That's how the founding fathers planned it, and that's why they provided impeachment as a corrective tool when the politicians behave like dictators instead of servants of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 07:09 PM

No, Carol, I have no confidence in the Dems... But less in the Repubs...

Like I said before, it's gonna take an army of street doldiers to force the Dems to act like an opposition party...

And then there's Ron Paul... Okay, I don't agree with everything the guy is asying but the most imporrtant part of his message that is being taken seriouly by progressives is that our foriegn policy is so expensive that it might just take down our economy and then our country... This message is getting thru to just about everyone and the Dems have to know just what a popular message this is and one that can not be ignored... This is a real movement of "thouhgt" and the Dems just might get *stuck* with it... That, in essence, could make the Dems a true opposition party by defualt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:26 PM

That's right. Only if there is a serious personal price to pay for war crimes and lies committed while in office will the Democrats think twice about continuing this endless war. They've always done so in the past, seems to me. Johnson campaigned as the "peace" candidate in '64, remember? Goldwater was portrayed as the "whacko" who would lead the country to war. Then Johnson led the country to war. Clinton also led the country to war...in the Balkans and Africa.

But I understand the conundrum, Bobert. There simply isn't anyone else who CAN get elected to replace the Republicans except the Democrats.

What a total drag.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 09:02 PM

I guess I don't share your confidence that the Democrats would be substantially different than the Republicans have been on the subject of endless war, Bobert (consider their past history in this regard, and the voting records of those currently in office), unless they are shown that those, like Bush and Cheney, who will wage illegal wars of convenience using the armed forces of this country will be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 08:04 PM

Just as I said...

The Repubs would love nothin' more than to have this bill out front and center...

This is a political version of the rope-a-dope...

The dems were smart to get this thing buried if they want to win in '08...

Hey, llok at it like this... '06 was like gettin' a few folks on base... '08 has the potential for the dems to take it out of the park...

Now, if one looks at our recent history, when one party has control of both Congress and the White House, they can purdy myuch have their way...

Conventional wisdom says "Table that sumabich"...

Does this make me some big ol' dem-lover??? Heck no... But they might just be our last chance and Repubs are used to gettin' beat up by progressives but if we put half a million folks in the streets a month after a dem sworn into the White House, you can bet that the dems won't as easilly dismiss it as the current crooks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 07:13 PM

Thanks for the article, JiK.

Dennis is now going to put together a big "town hall" type of forum where everyone will be able to discuss the issue of impeachment.

One of the reasons Dennis has given for his pushing the bill at this time is to try to prevent what he sees as a largely inevitable march to war on the part of the Bush administration against Iran. For this reason, Bobert, I don't think I can agree with your assessment of whether or not this impeachment bill is a good idea at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM

Well sure. That's good tactics on the part of the Republicans. Now the House Judiciary Committee can be tied up wasting their time for the next month or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM

Article at:

Debate on Cheney impeachment averted

John

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:56 PM

Yes, it is. I should rephrase my last post for accuracy, though...

More Republicans voted against the motion to table the bill than Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

Well, that certainly is interesting...!

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:51 PM

More Republicans voted against tabling the motion than Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:34 PM

Looks like the motion to refer the bill to the committee has passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:28 PM

Motion to table failed. They're now voting on whether or not to refer it to the Judiciary Committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: MarkS
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:52 PM

To kind of expand on Boberts post, the biggest problem Kucinich has right now is internal. I recall Nancy Pelosi saying, oh, about a year ago, that impeachment was not on the table, or somesuch.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 08:21 PM

I love Dennis but...

... I am also very concerned that with the American public fed up with "politics" and the timing isn't right...

Yeah, both Bush and Cheney should be impeached... They shoule be charged for war crimes of which they are both terribly guilty... And they should be imprisoned for life!!!

Yes that is what they deserve... Bush make Saddam look like a friggin' Boy Scout...

But nevermind that stuff... If American has any chance of surviving it's own nilistic self than, oh, how I hate to say this, it's going to have to elect the friggin' Dems in numbers that they can control the agenda...

This is kinda a last shot here... A Hail Mary pass...

I have liitle Faith in the Dems... Very little... But the cuurent guys have allready shown that they are not up to the task...

Impeachement, at this point in time, would be an early Christmas gift to the Repubs going into the '08 election...

Now back to the Dems...

Progressives, IMO, have no other game in town right now... We have tried to get their attention with our Green Party and to a certain extent we have done just that...

No, rather than play into the Repubs hands, I belive that progressives should beat up the Dems and leave the stinkin' Repubs alone... Everyone alrerady knows they stink...

Leave the creeps alone...

Jus' MO....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM

If he does, Donuel, things are going to get very, very ugly. I hope you are mistaken in your expectation, but I express no particular opinion about it one way or the other. It certainly could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Impeachment Action Needed (quickly)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:55 PM

I believe with no hesitation that GWB will follow the lead of Pakistani president dictator Mussareff and declare a national emergency to activate executive order #51.