BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:49 PM

Hezbollah has threatened the use of nuclear weapons against Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

"The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel (See ICT Note)
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.


ICT note: This paragraph did not appear in the original translation published by the Jerusalem Quarterly. It is possible that this ommision is due to the fact that the source (al-Safir) for the translation did not include this text, which appears in the original Hizballah Program. The original Program was published on 16 February 1985. The organization's spokesman, Sheikh Ibrahim al-Amin read the Program at the al-Ouzai Mosque in west Beirut and afterwards it was published as an open letter "to all the Opressed in Lebanon and the World". It should be emphasised that none of Hizballah's web sites have published the full text of the organization's program, and they prefer to publish the 1996 electoraral program which was intended for the specific propoganda campaign before the Lebanese Parliamentary elections in 1996. "

http://www.eyeonislam.com/the-hezbollah-charter/

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:06 PM

CarolC,

Will you make the claim that HEZBOLLAH has NOT repeatedly declared it's intent /desire to destroy Israel?????

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Are you saying, beardedbruce, that Hezbollah has stated an intention to use nuclear weapons against Israel?

Would you say that the government of Israel would not agree with your use of nuclear blackmail on their behalf?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM

CarolC,

"Are you saying, beardedbruce, that Hezbollah has stated an intention to use nuclear weapons against Israel?"

* I * am saying that Hezbollah has stated it's intent to destroy Israel, and HAS used WMD ( specifically, prohibited-by-Geneva Convention area mass bombardment rockets against civilian populations) against Israel in the past. IF they had nuclear weapons, they WOULD use them- I see far more evidence of that than that the US would be the first to use nuclear weapons, as YOU have claimed with NO factual support.


"Would you say that the government of Israel would not agree with your use of nuclear blackmail on their behalf? "

I do not know what the Israeli government would agree with, or not: I stated my opinion as to the most likely reaction.
YOU seem to have total approval of nuclear blackmail BY Iran against the rest of the world, in violation of the UN: WOULD YOU say that the government of Iran would not agree with your use of nuclear blackmail on their behalf???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:34 PM

CarolC,

Will you make the claim that HEZBOLLAH has NOT repeatedly declared it's intent /desire to destroy Israel?????

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:48 PM

CarolC,

Are you saying that the US has stated an intention to use nuclear weapons against Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM

Members of the US government have openly talked about using tactical nuclear weapons against Iran.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that Hezbollah would use nuclear weapons against Israel if they had them. They're too physically close to Israel for that. They would destroy themselves in the process. The fact that you can't see this, quite frankly, scares me quite a lot, since you have said that you are a 'rocket scientist' and you allude to being involved in fairly sensitive kinds of programs.

Iran is not using nuclear blackmail. They have repeatedly said that they do not intend to develop nuclear weapons, and that their nuclear program is for energy purposes. They are entirely within their legal rights to have such a program according to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

All of this from CarolC:

"I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that Hezbollah would use nuclear weapons against Israel if they had them. They're too physically close to Israel for that. They would destroy themselves in the process."

So not only do you seem to subscribe to the belief that Hezbollah mean Israel no harm, perish the thought, you also seem to think that the concept of martyrdom is some sort of major stumbling block and a complete and utter anathema to its members. Since when has Hamas, Hezbollah or Fatah given a damn about any of the Palestinian people over the last 35 years exactly what have any of them done for "the Palestinian people" - Nothing, Zip, Nada. By the bye CarolC did you know that the current populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are 1,159,391 and 459,198 respectively, having atomic bombs dropped on them never stopped them being cities. The zealots who you seem to support, who talk of wiping Israel off the map, and destroying Israel, have waited nearly 60 years. Bearing in mind the examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki CarolC, can you think of any reason why they would not take the most effective action to realise their ultimate goal and then sit back and wait another 60 in order to see the "Arab Dream" realised.

"Iran is not using nuclear blackmail. They have repeatedly said that they do not intend to develop nuclear weapons, and that their nuclear program is for energy purposes."

In which case CarolC you can explain the following:
a) why the uranium enrichment plants were built in secret.
b) why the type of centrifuges they have opted for enriches uranium to weapons grade.
c) why the number of of those centrifuges planned matches the numbers required for rapid cascade enrichment to weapons grade material.
d) why they had blue-prints for a nuclear warhead.
e) why when the IAEA requested surrender of that blue-print it took the Iranians over two years to hand it over having first denying its existence.

A purely peaceful nuclear programme my arse, even you don't believe that and IIRC you have previously stated that.

"They are entirely within their legal rights to have such a program according to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty."

Correct they are perfectly entitled to have such a programme PROVIDED that that programme is run according to the agreed terms and conditions detailed in the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. The Iranians for the past 20 years have singularly failed to do that.

The only country to threaten Iran to date with nuclear weapons CarolC is France.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:14 PM

"I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that Hezbollah would use nuclear weapons against Israel if they had them."

I think it is the height of folly to even imagine, after reading what Hezbollah has said and done in the past, that they would hesitate in using nuclear weapons on Israel if they had them.



" They're too physically close to Israel for that. They would destroy themselves in the process. "

You have no knowledge of nuclear weapons, from your comments. There are some very good USArmy manuals as to the range of destruction and radiological effects, for various kilotonnage ratings. Some of us have read them. You obviously have not.



"The fact that you can't see this, quite frankly, scares me quite a lot, since you have said that you are a 'rocket scientist' and you allude to being involved in fairly sensitive kinds of programs."

You seem to think that my not agreeoing with your assesments is a problem BECAUSE I amd knowledgable on the topic?????


"Iran is not using nuclear blackmail. They have repeatedly said that they do not intend to develop nuclear weapons, and that their nuclear program is for energy purposes."

Right. And the US has stated it will not use nuclear weapons first- but YOU have stated that they will. Do you imply that a government ( such as Iran) might actually tell a falsehood????



" They are entirely within their legal rights to have such a program according to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. "

No they are not. They have violated the NPT numerous ways, and the UN has been demanding that they cease their present programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:12 PM

So not only do you seem to subscribe to the belief that Hezbollah mean Israel no harm

Please show me where I have said this.

perish the thought, you also seem to think that the concept of martyrdom is some sort of major stumbling block and a complete and utter anathema to its members

When people commit suicide terrorism, they do it for what they consider to be the benefit of other people... namely the people in their home countries who are living under a military occupation. If they commit an act, such as lobbing a nuclear bomb only a few miles away from the people they consider themselves to be fighting for, they will be killing those very people. I certainly do not think that the concept of suicide martyrdom consists of killing all of the people they consider themselves to be fighting for. The fact that you can't see this says a lot about just how seriously we ought to take your analyses of anything at all.

Regardless of whether or not you think the government of Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons, the fact that, if they are doing so, they are doing so in secret is proof that they are not playing nuclear blackmail, because nuclear blackmail is when people make threats to use nuclear weapons against other countries if those other countries don't comply with their wishes. And since my comments were in response to beardedbruce's accusation against Iran that they are engaging in nuclear blackmail, your post is 100% irrelevant to anything I have said.

You have no knowledge of nuclear weapons, from your comments. There are some very good USArmy manuals as to the range of destruction and radiological effects, for various kilotonnage ratings. Some of us have read them. You obviously have not.

Even if I had read them, I wouldn't believe them for a minute. However, if Hezbollah used such weapons against Israel, they would hardly destroy Israel. Anything that is capable of destroying Israel would have devastating effects on the air and water in Lebanon as well.

Right. And the US has stated it will not use nuclear weapons first- but YOU have stated that they will.

Some members of the US government have said we will not use nuclear weapons first, but others have openly advocated using them first (Dick Cheney being one of them).

" They are entirely within their legal rights to have such a program according to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. "

No they are not. They have violated the NPT numerous ways, and the UN has been demanding that they cease their present programs.

They may not be entirely compliant in the way they are implementing their program, but they are entirely within their legal rights to have such a program. The UN is demanding that they cease doing something that they are legally entitled to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:23 PM

Teribus--

You are a true expert in denying reality--as you note yourself, referring to the propaganda thread of blessed memory. (Ah, nostalgia).

Of course Bush never linked Saddam and 9-11. And he also never said in the State of the Union 2003 "Before September 11, many in the world believed Saddam Hussein could be contained". Among many--to put it mildly--other linkages which were not made by his "team". Anything you say.

Now take your meds and go to bed. Everything will be all right in the morning.

But when you get up again, perhaps you can tell us why Bush did not have the option to listen to counsel against the Iraq war, and in fact had no choice but to invade Iraq.

Looking forward to your answer. Let's see how imaginative you can be. You've set a high standard in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:31 PM

I've seen hamsters trying to wear out their exercise wheels. They just keep going round and round and round, faster and faster, approaching what appears to be Warp speed...every now and then they suddenly go flying cockeyed and off balance out of the wheel, take a tumble, and land on their head or their ass!

They looked around stunned for an instant, then leap back furiously on the exercise wheel, and the whole process starts over again.

That's kind of what all these political threads are like. ;-)

Still, it's hard to resist jumping back on the old wheel, isn't it?

Remember: Your political enemies here (and everywhere) are wholly evil people. They are the legions of the damned! They stand for everything you loathe and despise. The world will not be safe until they are all dead or cowed into total groveling submission by massive military force on the part of the "good" people. They are in favour of exterminating all the "good" people (meaning those people that agree with you about politics) so it would be best to exterminate them first, right? It would be your patriotic duty, matter of fact! They hate dogs and children. They drink blood. They pick their noses in public and have bad body odor. They go to crappy movies. They listen to crappy music too. You MUST continue posting here to stop them!!!!!

Do it now. Jump back on the wheel. I can see the longing in your beady little lustful rodent-like eyes. Just DO it.

(you know who you are...) ;-D   Or do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:55 AM

" nuclear blackmail is when people make threats to use nuclear weapons against other countries if those other countries don't comply with their wishes."


So, Israel CANNOT be using nuclear blackmail, since it has never acknowledged that it has them.


" Anything that is capable of destroying Israel would have devastating effects on the air and water in Lebanon as well."

False, as you would know if you looked into the facts.

"Even if I had read them, I wouldn't believe them for a minute."

Then why should we believe anything you say? The manuals in question ( circa 1964 and 1972 ) are the ones looking at the effects of both the Japanese ( hiroshima and Nagasaki) bombs, and the above ground tests. If you refuse to look at facts, what DO you use to make your decisions on?


"However, if Hezbollah used such weapons against Israel, they would hardly destroy Israel. "

A single 100 kiloton bomb, in the "right" place, would destroy over 60% of Israel's population, and over 80% of it's industry. Seems like that qualifies...



"The UN is demanding that they cease doing something that they are legally entitled to do. "

False statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:59 AM

"Your political enemies here (and everywhere) are wholly evil people. They are the legions of the damned! They stand for everything you loathe and despise. The world will not be safe until they are all dead or cowed into total groveling submission by massive military force on the part of the "good" people. They are in favour of exterminating all the "good" people (meaning those people that agree with you about politics) so it would be best to exterminate them first, right? It would be your patriotic duty, matter of fact! They hate dogs and children. They drink blood. They pick their noses in public and have bad body odor. They go to crappy movies. They listen to crappy music too. You MUST continue posting here to stop them!!!!!"




No, those who disagree with me have either NOT looked at the facts, and might, if they make the effort to see why I have my opinions, at least understand that the world is not as they wish,

OR


they have looked at the facts and come to some other conclusion than I have- in which case I want to try to understand how they arrived where THEY are, in case I am in error in MY interpretation of those facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:01 AM

CarolC, North Korea has used "nuclear blackmail" for decades, done so quite succesfully. Now tell me was their nuclear weapons programme secret? They first got a reactor of the type that could be used to produce weapons grade material, then they developed the missiles to deliver the weapon, then they conducted a test.

How many ticks along that same road has Iran travelled CarolC?

Here's another one for you, was Israel's nuclear programme secret? If so according to you it is harmless ("the fact that,...., they are doing so in secret is proof that they are not playing nuclear blackmail, because nuclear blackmail is when people make threats to use nuclear weapons against other countries if those other countries don't comply with their wishes.") Has Israel ever threatened anyone with nuclear attack? Like India and Pakistan, Israel as a non-signatory of the NPT is perfectly entitled to have a nuclear energy programme and nuclear weapons as they are under no obligation to abide by the terms and conditions of a Treaty they are not party to.

When did Hiroshima and Nagasaki cease to be cities CarolC? Today they appear to be thriving, bustling communities. Two nuclear devices CarolC, one smuggled into Tel Aviv, the other smuggled into Haifa would destroy Israel. Tell me why that is impossible. The organisations and their paymasters to whom you seem to give your unstinting support have never shown any reluctance in deliberately targetting civilian centres of population. Why should the leopard change its spots now. By the bye, the air and water in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki is respectively perfectly breathable and drinkable.

Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah, and their Arab and Iranian paymasters, have only ever been interested in keeping the "Palestinian People" in misery and poverty in order that they may be used as pawns.

The suicide bombers that Saddam used to sponsor did it for instant cash for the sole benefit of their immediate family. What has been the instances of suicide bombings inside Israel since the fall of Saddam in March 2003 CarolC? What has been the instances of suicide bombings inside Israel since the wall was constructed?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:01 AM

Israel kept the bomb in the basement for years. The veil of secrecy has been ripped open. Israel's nuclear arsenal is no longer a secret. The bomb is no longer in the basement. Its sitting on the stairs, just out of sight but we all know its there.

And what gives??? Whats the point of the NPT when countries like India, Pakistan and Israel are not signatories?

The argument that Israel is somehow 'entitled' because it didn't sign a treaty is just plain bullshit. If Israel has the capacity, then every other country in the Middle East has the right to defense.

Why doesn't Israel take the high road and lead the world by setting a good example? Oh no. They create a shroud of secrecy and threaten their neighbors with their military might.

"What has been the instances of suicide bombings inside Israel since the fall of Saddam in March 2003 CarolC?" - teribus

Well, teribus, hooray! How many millions have died to protect Israeli citizens from suicide bombers? How can you even compare suicide bombers with a nuclear arsenal? Sort of like David and Goliath, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Stu
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:57 AM

"Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah, and their Arab and Iranian paymasters, have only ever been interested in keeping the "Palestinian People" in misery and poverty in order that they may be used as pawns."

It looks like bearedbruces' onanistic right-wing fantasies are catching - the above statement is complete rubbish worthy of the Daily Mail and little else. Typical propagandist, divisive twaddle regurgitated time and again by the the apologists and lackeys of the capitalist right.

Hamas are the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They are the instigators of valuble social projects in a place where no one else would start them, least of all Israel. Fatah also have elected representatives in the Palestinian Parliament. Of course, because the corporate political suits of the US don't like the fact someone with opposing views to their own have been democratically elected they perpetuate the conflict instead of working towards a geniune negotialed settlement to the Palestinian problem.

Israel gets away with it's abuse of the Palestinians by virtue of the fact the US protects it. The Palestinians are acting like caged animals because they see little hope and have little control over their own destiny whilst their belligerent neighbour continues to steal land and encourage illegal settlements. Of course, this appeals to the US mentality as they do enjoy stealing the land off the natives and not giving it back - their country was built on it.

The fact moderate voices in Israel are drowned out by the right-wingers gives the impression everyone in the country is a rabid Arab-hater- another right-wing myth. The truth is the only way to sorth this out is by the use of restraint and by talking. If that doesn't happen and a nuclear confrontation occurred, then which side would take the lion's share of the blame for allowing it to happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

stigweard,

You seem to ignore that, after 1948, it was the ARAB nations that

1. Controlled what is now being claimed as a "Palestinian State"
2. Kept the Palestinians in camps and refused to allow them to settle.
3. Drove the vast majority of Jews out of Arab lands.

Israel , on the other hand,

1. absorbed and settled the GREATER number of Jews who were driven from Arab countries
2. Invited and accepted as citizens those Moslems willing to live peacefully in Israel

I think, in THIS case, Teribus is far closer to the truth than you are attempting to be.The Arab nations, and the Plaestinian "leadership" leadership, have treated the Palestinian PEOPLE far worse than Israel has, and a case can be made that the have KILLED more than Israel has, by both direct ( actions) AND indirect (policies) means.




Tell me again what TransJordan was created as? You know, the greater part ( 75%+) of the Mandate Palestine territory that was split off and reserved exclusively for the Palestinian Moslems as an "Arab" homeland, with settlement by Jews prohibited ( Unlike the "Jewish" homeland, where Moslems were and remained a large part of the population)?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

"Hamas are the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people."


Absolutely TRUE.

But you see, Hitler was the democratically elected government of Germany, and there did not seem to be any problem in trying to destroy him. Nor did he benefit the German People, in the longer ( over 10 year) term.

Perhaps we should judge a government by it's ACTIONS, like attacking another country, or refusing to act in a manner acceptable to the resat of the world.

Or is it only the US that you insist on demanding hold to such standards?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Stu
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:00 AM

"Perhaps we should judge a government by it's ACTIONS, like attacking another country, or refusing to act in a manner acceptable to the resat of the world."

I think that's a great idea. Let's start with the USA as led by Bush Jr.

The Bush Administration (BA) attacked and invaded Iraq based on lies and without the sanction of the UN.

The BA condones the torture of prisoners, the forced removal of people from any given country, detentention without trial and no access to legal aid, the mass killing of innocent civilians, the use and proliferation of WMD's, 'baiting', the use of cluster munitions and other anti-personnel weapons that kill and maim indiscriminately etc etc.

This is not acceptable to the rest of the world - if you haven't got that message by now, then I suspect there's no hope.

Judge any country by it's actions these days and I'm sure all our governments will look like the morally corrupt corporate whores they have become, but I think if you're trying to defend the madam of the brothel you might want to think through comments like the one above before you post them.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:44 AM

stig,

YOU were the one who said it was ok for a government to act that way, as long as it was democratically elected. YOU claim "Hamas are the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They are the instigators of valuble social projects in a place where no one else would start them, least of all Israel. Fatah also have elected representatives in the Palestinian Parliament. Of course, because the corporate political suits of the US don't like the fact someone with opposing views to their own have been democratically elected they perpetuate the conflict instead of working towards a geniune negotialed settlement to the Palestinian problem."

If you don't like what the US is doing, YOU can work towards a genuine negotiated settlement to the Iraq problem, since the US has as much, if not more, legitimacy as Hamas. Of course, Hamas has been killing Palestinians that disagree with them: I guess it will be OK for the US government to do the same...

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:45 AM

BTW,

Tell me again what TransJordan was created as? You know, the greater part ( 75%+) of the Mandate Palestine territory that was split off and reserved exclusively for the Palestinian Moslems as an "Arab" homeland, with settlement by Jews prohibited ( Unlike the "Jewish" homeland, where Moslems were and remained a large part of the population)?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

Feel free to use the rest of your list, but the following requires SOME kind of supporting evidence- if appears to me to be an obvious falsehood.

"The BA condones ... the use and proliferation of WMD's..."

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:46 AM

GUEST,dianavan - 15 Nov 07 - 02:01 AM

"Israel kept the bomb in the basement for years. The veil of secrecy has been ripped open. Israel's nuclear arsenal is no longer a secret. The bomb is no longer in the basement. Its sitting on the stairs, just out of sight but we all know its there."

It has always been known that Israel had a nuclear programme for power generation, understandable as they are among very few countries in the region that does not have vast gas and oil resources. Whether, or not, Israel has nuclear weapons is as yet unverified, although I personally would be amazed if they didn't posess any, considering the threats that they have had to live under for the best part of 60 years.

"And what gives??? Whats the point of the NPT when countries like India, Pakistan and Israel are not signatories?"

Are you trying to say Dianavan that countries should be forced and dragooned into signing treaties right left and centre, even if such treaties act against the best interest of those countries?. Who is going to be responsible for doing that Dianavan? And where and when does it stop?

"The argument that Israel is somehow 'entitled' because it didn't sign a treaty is just plain bullshit."

Not bullshit dianavan just a point of fact. Why on earth should anybody live in accordance with somebody else's rules if they haven't signed up and agreed to do so?

"If Israel has the capacity, then every other country in the Middle East has the right to defense."

Ah Dianavan but Israel, in all of its near sixty years of existence, has not threatened to wipe any of it's neighbours off the map. Most of Israel's powerful neighbours (Egypt, Syria, Jordan) and many other Arab nations (Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Yemen) have threatened in very plain terms to destroy Israel.

"Why doesn't Israel take the high road and lead the world by setting a good example?"

You mean something like their unilateral withdrawal from Gaza (Jewish land captured by the Egyptian Army in 1948) on the understanding that indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians would cease. Now if memory serves me correctly Dianavan the Israelis did withdraw from Gaza, now you tell me if the rocket attacks ceased, again IIRC no they did not. Now what was that about setting good examples again?

"Oh no. They create a shroud of secrecy and threaten their neighbors with their military might."

Please give an example of Israeli threats against their neighbours. Please give me an example of any Israeli nuclear threat against their neighbours.

"What has been the instances of suicide bombings inside Israel since the fall of Saddam in March 2003 CarolC?" - teribus

"Well, teribus, hooray! How many millions have died to protect Israeli citizens from suicide bombers?"

Since the fall of Saddam's regime Dianavan? - None, mainly due to the fact that once driven from power suicide bombers were no longer paid their bounty by Saddam Hussein.

"How can you even compare suicide bombers with a nuclear arsenal? Sort of like David and Goliath, wouldn't you say?"

Not at all Dianavan, Iran funds both Hamas and Hezbollah, supplies both with finances, training facilities and materials. You tell me what the difference is:

a) Currently Iran supplies finance, training and materials in order to make the suicide vests that are smuggled into Israel with the express intention of targeting civilians.

b) Possibly some time in the not too distant future, Iran supplies the finance, training and materials in order to make a nuclear device that can be smuggled into Israel in it's component parts where it can be reassembeld with the express intention of destroying the State of Israel.

Readers please note the following remains unanswered:

Can any Iranian apologist explain the following regarding Iran's "peaceful" nuclear programme:

a) why the uranium enrichment plants were built in secret.

b) why the type of centrifuges they have opted for enriches uranium to weapons grade.

c) why the number of of those centrifuges planned matches the numbers required for rapid cascade enrichment to weapons grade material.

d) why they had blue-prints for a nuclear warhead.

e) why when after the IAEA requested surrender of that blue-print it took the Iranians over two years to hand it over having first denied its existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:04 PM

How do you pay a bounty to a suicide bomber?

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:15 PM

It's time for me to bow out of this discussion. I simply don't have time for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

dick,

the bounties were paid to the families who sent their ( mostly) sons out to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:18 PM

Taker care of yourself, CarolC.

Hope to see you again at future Getaways.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:56 PM

Thanks, beardedbruce. You, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:36 AM

teribus - Allow me to re-phrase the question, "How many millions have died to protect Israeli citizens from suicide bombers?"

How many millions of Iraqi citizens and American soldiers have died to protect Israeli citizens from suicide bombers?

Who will protect them when the U.S. withdraws?

teribus - "Please give an example of Israeli threats against their neighbours."

Hmmm - Maybe you should ask the Palestinians and the Lebanese that question. I'm sure there are a quite a few other countries in the Middle East who feel threatened by a nation whose very creation has resulted in death, injury, homlessness and poverty for countless numbers of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:27 AM

"YOU were the one who said it was ok for a government to act that way, as long as it was democratically elected."

At no point have I said that - I don't have much faith in any government these days; please refer to my post of 13 Nov 07 - 04:46 AM which states "The US and many of our governments don't give two shades of shit about you, me or anyone else in the world..

The truth is though, Hamas have a mandate from their electorate and this means the only way to come to a solution is to talk to them, however distasteful that may seem. They provide a social infrastucture that otherwise wouldn't be available to them and the idea they are soley a terrorist force is wrong. Like the Provisional IRA they have a politcal wing and like the IRA any settlement for peace will have to include them, Fatah and Hezbollah too.

What gets in the way of this is the propaganist bullshite spoonfed to people by the agencies with a vested interest in the area - the corporate governments of the west and their allies who stand to loose big style should the people of the middle east finally find peace and take sole control of their own assets.

"The BA condones ... the use and proliferation of WMD's..."

Try http://www.slate.com/id/2099425/ and one of your own true blue rags discussing the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:32 AM

Guest dianavan, the answers to your questions are as follows
Answer 1 - None
Answer 2 - Same people as protected them before

Observation:
Dianavan I asked you to give me an example of Israeli treats against their neighbours. You know something in the same sort of vein as these:

Example A from Egypt:
"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand. We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood."

Example B also from Egypt:
"we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel."

Example C from Iraq (Pre-March 2003):
"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."

Maybe the "Palestinians" might have a country if those they elected as leaders just for once actually provided some leadership and acted in the best interests of those who elected them, instead of in the best interests of themselves. Now tell us Dianavan how big was the fortune that Arafat amassed while his "Palestinian people" starved? Easy enough to find out Dianavan just consult Forbes.

The Israelis have threatened Lebanon? When was that Dianavan? Before or after the campaign in which Hezbollah fired between 3,970 and 4,228 Katyusha Rockets at civilian built-up areas in Israel?

Oh! That reminds me Dianavan, something that refers back to your suggestion that the Israelis should set a good example. IIRC the conflict in South Lebanon was ended by a UN brokered cease-fire, which like all others had terms and conditions, which the Israelis fulfilled. Now come Dianavan tell us all what progress Hezbollah have made in keeping their part of the bargain. Seems to me Dianavan that it doesn't matter how many times Israel sets a good example the other side never feels the need to respond in kind.

If you actually look into the history of things Dianavan the "other countries in the Middle East who feel threatened" probably had very good cause to fear retribution for the threats that they themselves made. But not to hammer too much on the semantics but "feeling threatened" does not quite equate to "being threatened". One is a subjective evaluation the other is a recorded matter of fact. Now give me an example of Israeli treats against their neighbours.

A little secret Dianavan, I cannot think of one single nation on this planet whose very creation didn't resulted in death, injury, homlessness and poverty for countless numbers of people. That especially is true of the land you came from and the land to which you ran.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM

"Maybe the "Palestinians" might have a country if those they elected as leaders just for once actually provided some leadership and acted in the best interests of those who elected them, instead of in the best interests of themselves"

This could be said of any country in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:35 PM

Ah! true stigweard, very true.

Unfortunately all previous chances that those collectively called the "Palestinians" had of having/getting a country were pissed against the wall by a bunch of tossers (Their "Leaders") who promised them paradise tomorrow, or the day after, or the day after that, etc, etc, etc, but meanwhile restrict yourselves to the shit and crumbs that we are prepared to feed you.

In this task throughout the "Cold War" years, the "Leaders" of the "Palestinians" were aided and abetted by their Arab "Host" nations who saw and took political advantage of the plight of these poor beggars, by ensuring that they remained poor beggars while they played the USSR against the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:36 PM

Condi Rice went to Pakistan and met with the dictator president.
3 days later he declared a national emergency / martial law / code red and suspended elections.


Condi said "she was shocked, shocked I tell you. He promised everything was just fine and didn't ever mention an emergency"


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm



sounds like a practice demonstration for George

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:20 PM

Serbia, beardedbruce???

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 07:12 AM

"....but meanwhile restrict yourselves to the shit and crumbs that we are prepared to feed you."

or promise you "pie in the sky when you die". This is the way the ruling classes work the world over.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:37 PM

"Sorry, I just read the written reports as presented by the UN to the world. THEY indicate that the inspectors could NOT account for various materials known to have been obtained by Saddam."

But they could account for the fact that the known materials were not for the purpose of
nuclear weapons. UNSCOM established that. Of course, many of the materials obtained by Saddam came from the US under Bush Sr.

Written reports by the UN may not have been an official document by the UN as a whole.
"Reports" indicate that they may have been delivered by individual nation members.
Perhaps John Bolton wrote one of these reports.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Another dictator to turn on the U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

Well Stringsinger we do know for a fact that the UNSCOM Report presented to the Security Council of the United Nations in January 1999 that detailed their efforts and detailed the discrepencies were signed by one Dr. Hans Blix and by Scott Ritter. That is a matter of record, not supposition.

Oh by the bye in his job as an arms inspector Bolton was extremely professional and regarded as being very good.