folksingers who quit,and why?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

I contract everything, Bruce.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:22 AM

There ain't too many clubs anywhere where you can count on a gig without something in writing. There are some, however.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:21 AM

Look, Black Hawk, you don't know me, and I don't know you.
... so basically, you don't have a balls notion about the circumstances of my meeting with these people.

Neither do you have a balls notion if I could survive in my version of your Alaskan wilderness.

London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Cornwall, Black Hawk.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

Brendy ?
You say you know enough to survive in it. I could say the same about the Alaskan wilderness but until I had done it we wouldnt know would we?
How about at least giving a clue as to the areas these clubs are in that are offering you contracts not available to anyone else. There are no clubs in the NE of England that will do this. Some are booked up at least 12 months in advance. Just because someone on holiday offers you a booking does not mean that it is a 'cert'.
I've been offered bookings in Florida, Spain, France etc. but not firm contracts.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:02 AM

... just spotted this now.... "But PLEASE stop being so I'm-all-right-Jack complacent."

Look....., don't misunderstand me. I'm not complacent, neither am I trying to be patronising. Those epithets are usually flung around when an impasse is arrived at.

I care very deeply about the folk scene. Part of what drives me over here is to help create a 'scumbag agent-free' zone...., 'cos (and you can believe this)..., there's a lot of people take advantage out there.
It's not just a Scandinavian thing; give the wrong kind of person a position of power, and the scene can crumble down around your ears.

I could find a dozen other countries that it would be easier for me to operate in, but I choose Norway and Denmark.
I do this because I want to help expand the market.

I'm the least complacent guy in the World, Guest.

I care very much....

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM

"First you have to acknowledge what the "English folk scene" IS - and I don't believe you really know either"

I know enough about it to be able survive in it, anyway, Anon 09.39.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM

Families and full time musicianship can function. But that is very much an issue you must look at, not me
If you're worried about carbon footprints, however, you should walk to all your gigs from here out.
My instruments (I carry at least 3 wherever I go) are an ongoing negotiation with check-in staff.
But as this is also part of my job, I deal with it!

How do you find the gigs?
Stop sitting on your arse in here complaining about it and use the internet to ask questions about what's out there.
Is it your job, or isn't it??????

Anon 09.24:
What is a Folk-Club?

I'm talking about 9 venues in a landmass that supports 120 million people, once every 9 weeks...., and gorgeous wee gigs they would have been.

The venues are there if you look hard enough, and apply a little lateral thinking along the way.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Another anon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM

> If I couldn't survive on the English Folk Scene, ladies and gentlemen, I would be the first to acknowledge it.

First you have to acknowledge what the "English folk scene" IS - and I don't believe you really know either. All your blithe dismissals seem merely to underline this. This scene you're so sure you could make a living in reads like some alternative reality to the one you - by your own admission - have no actual experience of. Or is this all a wind-up?

> You create your own good luck

OK, fine. But you DON'T necessarily create your own bad luck. If bad luck doesn't happen to you, hooray. But PLEASE stop being so I'm-all-right-Jack complacent.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM

Some of us have families Bendy. Have you tried flying with £12k's worth of instruments that they won't let you take in the cabin - never mind the carbon footprint issue. And how are we supposed to find the gigs? Turn up and busk?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:24 AM

I'm not sure Brendy knows what a UK folk club actually is...

Clubs are effectively closed-door semi-formal concerts with an entry fee, Brendy, usually offering a mix of unpaid locals and paid visitors performing. Even the very top names in the land are only ever booked once a year. Not all clubs have paid visitors - but in these no-one gets paid at all.

No club in the UK has a paid residency. Session-leading happens, yes (but unlike in Ireland this are quite rare as there's usually no demand for pros to up the ante), pub gigs happen yes (play in the bar, usually free entry, take pot luck with the noise levels), pub concerts in a room at the back with a door chage, yes. But not clubs with a name, a committe, regular members, floor spots, raffles etc, no.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:17 AM

I was referring to you 'booking who you want'.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:15 AM

I'm also at a loss to know why one should concentrate only on earning a living in England, Scotland and Wales?
In these days of cheap flights, one could safely be playing a festival in Stockholm, Oslo, København, Hamburg, Kiel, one weekend, and back on home turf, Sunday night with a rake of foreign currency in your pocket.

That was the basis of my point earlier about diversifying.

If folksingers are quitting because of lack of venues in said 3 countries, consider expanding your horizons.

One less excuse for having to quit.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM

Brendy

Have a look at The Snail's post on the sister thread, and maybe I think some of you will get a clearer picture.

Not sure that I do. We certainly don't offer anyone a year's work. I don't recognise the sort of venue Brendy is talking about at all.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:53 AM

Hang on, FPR, you are not reading between the lines, here..., you're not even reading the lines itself...

The pubs in England that I have been offered are such.
If a venue doesn't interest me, I normally let the people know there and then.
The Folk clubs & Pubs concerned have offered me a year's work

Different rules?
Don't think so.

Have a look at The Snail's post on the sister thread, and maybe I think some of you will get a clearer picture.

If I couldn't survive on the English Folk Scene, ladies and gentlemen, I would be the first to acknowledge it.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon FPR
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM

"The pubs I play are generally small little folk clubs in themselves"

Not many of them in the UK...

"almost residency gigs"

Ah. Not clubs at all then. Different game, different rules.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM

As a guy who cut his teeth in the folk clubs up and down Ireland in the '70, AnonFPR, I certainly need no proof that the folk club scene has gone plummeting over the years. The English folk-club scene is no different

What I do is about the bottom limit of what an 'Irish Pub' would consider 'Irish'.
... which is why I stay away from most of them.
The pubs I play are generally small little folk clubs in themselves. I have long left behind the 4 one-hour sets on a Friday & Saturday night, (different craic in Europe, lads...) except I have another musician (at least) with me.

I would qualify all I said about being able to live & work as a full-time musician in England, with the comment that I never have limited myself to having to 'survive' off one country alone. Not that I couldn't do it. But not knowing my personal financial status, no-one can gainsay me, neither.

As I said earlier, it is a life, and you create your own good luck.
'Serving your time' is just getting to know the business

What I'm trying to streamline at the minute is the '6 months in Ireland - 6 months in Scandinavia, which is why the hypothetical question of whether or not I could live in England as a full-time muso is heavily rhetorical.

I sympathise with musicians who can't get their art out there.
But networking is very important. I got those offers of almost residency gigs by people I met on the road over here; I didn't cold-call them. They came up to me.
I gave them my card with web address, mobile number, and a wee CD to throw behind the bar.

Goodwill is a word I haven't noticed mentioned on the thread, yet.
The folk scene needs all it can get.

I get by.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: oggie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:54 AM

I wonder just how many full-time performers there actually are on the UK folk scene? Even many who we would generally class as full-time make a portion of their income (in some cases a large portion) from non folk circuit activity.

The notion of "serving your time" and becoming full-time I think is now past it's sell by date (it it was ever in date). I don't think that the UK folk cicuit can support, on a year round basis, more than a handful of full-time performers, the majority will have to develop a range of activities that they can offer in different spheres.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: SimonS
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:53 AM

"Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time. "

Interesting, why do you say that? Amongst the people you've listed, there are a few who are amongst the hardest working people around, a couple who do a reasonably large amount of gigs, and a few who have most certainly not "served their time" in any accepted sense (one of whom you can count the amount of professional gigs on the fingers of one hand). Its amazing what a little publicity will do for you...

The only people you mentioned who don't have jobs other than gigs are Spiers and Boden, and up until a couple of years ago John Spiers was still managing The Music Room in Oxford at the same time as touring.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST, Anon FPR
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 04:12 AM

I got the impression that the removed guest was talking about clubs not pubs, Brendy. You can certainly make a living doing pub gigs in the UK if you want to. But very few UK pros do pub gigs - they are just too noisy for the material we've developed for our core market. There's not usually enough respect for that stuff to work properly in a pub, so you can't do your 'proper' material. You have to belt out crowd-pleasers, which is ok if you want the gig badly enough. I've done it, and done it for too long. I'm not going back to that (never mind the PA humping, the drunks and the rude bar staff).

This thread is, I think, mainly about the club and festival circuit (where crowd-pleasing material is not usually required). Different game.

If you came to the UK as an unknown and tried to make a living in the folk clubs... well, try it and see - I may be wrong, but you'd need to work very very very hard, and do a lot of gigs for nowt to get started - so bring enough dosh to keep you for six months.

I'm considered to be pretty good and pretty well-known - and I've been doing it for decades. I work flat out, covering every angle I can think of all the time, and yet I don't make enough to trouble the tax man.

Dave said "Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time."

Note the past tense. How many are now full-time club only pros with no day-jobs? And how many will still be doing it (or wanting to do it) in ten years time?

As the man/woman said - the days when club touring was a proper job are over.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:55 AM

' have struggled with festival growth - as a solo performer and a balladeer I find fewer and fewer festivals have those kind of slots. '

Shame on you America - he's one of your best!

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:40 AM

Jed Marum - you leave me now more befuddled about this business than I thought. I have always thought that I was at the very "bottom of the barrel," so to speak, yet you insist that you reside there.
Comparing what I have done and where I've been to what you have done and where you have been, well, I can't hold a candle to you; so I
guess my question is: if you are at the "bottom of the barrel" -
where in the hell does that leave me? I guess I must be part of the
residue on the bottom plate inside the barrel; oh well, at least I'm in the barrel - I guess. Cheers.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:23 AM

I apologize for moving back to topic;-)

For my part, I stopped the singing thing(but not the playing music thing) for mostly health reasons. I was and am prone to respiratory ailments, and in several consecutive years, I was unable to sing for long periods of time. Finally, a good opportunity, that I had spend a long time setting up fell through because my voice was gone at a critical time. I knew it was time to hang up the singing and just play. Wedding bells and subsequent obligations have taken their toll on that, as well.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:26 PM

I've been asked to, and taking into account renting a house, car lease, etc, I could live & work quite easily there.

I don't want to, however.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,chas
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

Believe you WHY, exactly? You don't play there. So how do you know?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:06 PM

Although based in Denmark for the past year, my 'home' over here (and where I pay my taxes) for the past 13 years is Oslo, Norway.
This is a huge country of only 5 million people, where alcohol is among the most expensive in the world..., and it's illegal to advertise it.
You're singing in English (or Irish) to people whose only connection with the song is the soul you put into it.

England's a dawdle, mate, believe me.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:57 PM

I see a big shift in the US venues ... I can make it work because I keep trying new things and playing different kinds of venues. In truth I work anywhere I can get paid and too many where I don't.

My main interest in playing is still concerts ... that's the kind of "entertainment" I do best. The truth is I am NOT a personality entertainer, not a humorist, not a virtuoso ... but I have some of each of those elements. IF people are entertained by my show it is because they have an interest in the kind of music I play - and they are "entertained" by the music. As a performer, I'd have to say I'm a musician (not an entertainer). That is the basic weaknesses I've had to work on - and frankly still need to work on.

In order to make a living, I've had to develop other kinds of shows (beyond concerts). I play some where I do very few of my own songs (usually Pubs) and I play some shows where I do almost nothing but my own songs.

Especially this time of year - I feel like my day job is a Pub singer. I don't mean to put down pubs. I actually enjoy doing them, most of the time - but it's not what I'm best at - and I've had to work hard to be as good as I am. So I see it as both a way to make money and a way to force me to develop as an "entertainer."

We have one of the very best entertainers in the world here at Mudcat ... and that is Seamus Kennedy. He is both a fine singer/musician and a first rate humorist. Seamus is the perfect entertainer in one package. It seems to just roll from him when he's on-stage, but I know how hard I've worked to develop my show ... so I suspect he works at least as hard.

As the music scene changes, I assume it is my task to change with it, and maybe even be lucky enough to change ahead of it. I've always been interested in history and wrote a few songs inspired by history - and I've accidentally fallen into a bit of a music niche there - mostly CD and MP3 sales - but I do a few shows every year that pay well. I push stuff out onto Myspace and Youtube - and I sell CDs and MP3s through CDBaby. Each of these sites has provide some benefit - CDBaby especially through real income - but the others give me demo sites, promo facilities and have helped me make meaningful music connections.

I have struggled with festival growth - as a solo performer and a balladeer I find fewer and fewer festivals have those kind of slots. The shift there has been toward the big fat sound of kick-ass trad based bands - and toward the even bigger and fatter sounds of the hard Celtic rock bands. So I've been booking some festivals with various band configurations, tapping some very talented friends for band members as needed.

I've also stumbled into TV and film work. None of that's paid well, yet - but it helps on the resume (CV) and provides real advertising. I do have one film possible for next year that will actually earn me something if it goes. I won't hold my breath, but I will keep my fingers crossed.

Anyway - as I struggle through this music business, I keep trying to find new ways to make it work.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

It is if you know what you're talking about.

Why?

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

D'ya see that gig every 9 weeks?
That was indefinite.

I have 5 such offers in England alone.
3 Pubs & 2 Folk Clubs.

I could live there handy enough.

I could also live here or Ireland, handy enough.
... and commute.

I know what I'm talking about too.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,N.t.o.g.
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM

Not here you haven't. So ease up on the platitudes.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM

I've been supporting myself on the folk scene for over 30 years.

It's a life, mate.
You either do it, or you don't.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Not the other Guest
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM

Brendy whether you mean to or not you do come across as patronising. You say you could manage fine in England but you haven't actually tried it have you? Come over and support yourself for a year in the folk scene and then preach to us*. Anon has been there. You haven't.

*That is, if you could get the gigs. Not because you're not good enough but because they're

N O T

T H E R E.

Get it?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Forsh
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

I know how the audience not enjoying you can get you down, and I was just starting out! It took a few years (about 20) to get over it, but I will always have happy memories of 700 or so holiday makers joining in when I got up to do my party piece! Also the fun I have had just busking or entertaining mates at a party.
What do I do now? Well, I organise clennell Hall folk Festivalin northumberland! (day job I work in supported housing, where I also run a 'guitar club'!) I gues that in folk it is hard to fill clubs with punters who will pay the fee which represents the actual value of the act. Heck, If I can get to se one or two decent acts a year, at £10 - 20 each + travel + drink 7 food, then I am well pleased!
Also, there are some great semi pro acts on the circut, in northumbria region I can think of loads, all who are regularly on the regional circut, and can be enjoyed for around £5 door enrtance.
As an organiser I baulk at hearing someone ask for £350+ cos I know that the venue would struggle to attract, "can we pull in 50? then that'll be £7 a head!" There are no guarentees, of course, but one act who charged that price v 'a certain % of the door', made just that, and I later heared from a 'representative' that they were a bit disapointed with that! Great act, mind you, but cant aford to hire again! Some of us are disadvantaged by location you know!

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:40 PM

Look at the 'Stealing Gigs' thread ! There is NOT enough CASH in Folk Clubs these days - Most of my Gigs now are Corporate Entertainment , NOT Folk Clubs !

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:36 PM

I'm talking about both, Jim.
I have a number of different sets, depending on the venue.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:34 PM

I'm not patronising you.
I, personally, have not been exposed to the downside of it.

It begs the question, though: "Why fly a guy from Denmark (or Norway), put him up in a decent B&B, feed him, give him a decent enough fee, and fly him back, when there's a similar artist living 50 miles away?"

And to be willing to do this every 9 weeks?

Beats me....

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:33 PM

Brendy: - I think we're both looking at the question a little differently. You're talking about Pub gigs and I thought the question was more about folk gigs. I made the switch years ago and have done less & less Folk Club gigs as the years go by. I'll agree with most of what you say but have to add that the Folk Scene is a completely different game when it comes to return gigs & money.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:21 PM

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:08 PM

Mind you, most Mudcat folkies will neither notice nor mind. The pro is some kind of a criminal to many here, who boast about never going to see concerts at festivals, and never booking guests at their clubs - because it's their music innit, and they don't need no high and mighty experts

I am not sure that "most" is right but I do agree with your general sentiment. There are a fair number and I have disagreed with them on here on a number of occasions.

However some people do make it. Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time. Seth Lakeman was an overnight success at 28 or so having played publicly since he was about 14.

alf of Waterson;Carthy is 60+; Vin is now over 60; Roy Bailey is about 70; I could point to others whose ages are not so well-known, BUT - if they are a draw and people come and see them they will go on.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:02 PM

Look..., people quit for all sorts of different reasons. I feel like quitting on average about twice a year.

If music is your life, then you make you own way. You diversify, you play with different people.
You take what you do seriously!

Just as you would if you traded stocks all day.

Call it a job, call it a passion. That is your call!
Take the rough with the smooth, and grow with it, or question why you're in this game, at all.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

"...Not if the business has closed down in the mean time."

No doubt.
But doesn't demand outstrip supply?

I've been asked to play pubs & clubs in England, (London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Cornwall....) but so far I haven't gotten around to it.

There are good venues out there (it takes a fairly large pizza to feed a family of four, these days), but if I lived in England..., judging by the offers of work..., I could manage a family of 3!
.... if she worked, the options would rise considerably....

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM

I'm turning work down in my neck of the woods, in Ireland, too .... In fact, I turn down more than I actually play.

If you're looking at it as purely a business transaction, if you do a decent enough job the first time around, the repeat business should come of itself.
I'm no 'big name', but I still only work 8 months a year.

Quite a lot of it has to do with planning; just like any other business.

B.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM

NO Guest - I believe there is no cause for alarm. It is not appropriate to say say RIP full time touring folkies. I think my point is; it's hard but it's possible. I'm doing it. Anything worth having is worth working hard to obtain. I'm at the bottom of the full time folkie barrel - lots of more talented folks do better. As difficult as it is - I wouldn't trade places with anyone - and I still love what I'm doing.

I just winge a little, from time-to-time!

;-)

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM

I was trying to be very "even keel" about that response...

Still am....

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:05 PM

Sorry for my part in thread drift, but I think Captain, you answered your own question with your original post-economics, and as others have noted as well, the distance between gigs and the economic factors that creates. As to why, I can only guess as a nonperformer the demoralizing you might get from a gig you have drawn attention to and still only get 20 people to show up, 5 of them being friends.I know I have been to my fair share of those over the years.Even clubs here in the states that are organized, have newsletters with upcoming shows, good websites,etc you think might help, but sometimes, its all for nothing, and if you've just driven in a van with no airconditioning from Maine to New York (as Kathryn Tickell told me had happened at her NY gig a few years back) and no one shows up, its got to be hard. BTW, I'm glad to say that at least in Kathryn's case, lots of people did show up, but then opening for Maddy Prior may have helped as well! So for the prevention of this happening, I wish I could tell you, but all I can do is go to as many gigs as I can, whether the results are good or not.
Cheers

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM

Jed is a perfect example of what I was discussing. I have noted in the past that he keeps a very busy summer schedule, travels extensively and plays Highland Games venues as well as Irish festivals. (If you can please the Scots, you can please anyone)
I imagine that the few days he's not travelling to and from, are spent trying to get stock ready and make contacts for future work.
Not a lot of time for anything else.
Tough going but lots of fun. Congratulations on the "Tax" thing, Jed.
Been there, got the "T" Shirt.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:46 PM

I'm sure there's something you haven't figured out.
Try not to read "Tone" into my response.
There's no anger there.
Back to the point though. Why do folk singers quit.
Many of us switch over to the Hospitality Industry, simply because the Folk Circuit cannot support us.
I could play every single week-end at one or two different folk clubs who would gladly welcome me back in 18 months. I'd be working for what they can afford, living in some of the saddest excuses for billets (on occasion) and be constantly on the road. CD sales would amount to 10% of the audience, on the west coast and rising to about 20% the farther east I go. I'd be a household name among folkies, broke and alone.
The Hotel, pub, restaurant industry pays more and regularly without the need for so much travel. Outdoor markets are also extremely lucrative and in most cases I sell more than the vendors do as well as getting paid for it.
Not a difficult decision for me at all.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:45 PM

... well it's tough jumping into this discussion so late, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

I worked part-time at music for years in the 70's and 80's. I rekindled my interest in music and performing in the late 90's. Bought a beautiful Larrivee guitar, starting playing clubs and festivals and gave up my dayjob in Jan 2000. It hasn't been easy - but I've made it work and I even had to pay income tax the last two or three years (a dubious milestone yes - but one sign of "progress in America").

Having said that - I cannot tell you how many times I wish I could quit! The world of "folk" music, well it just isn't a very big pie! But I am determine and committed. So I slug away. I figure out what I'm doing wrong and try to fix it. I'm figure out what I'm doing right and try to improve it. I figure out the places where I cannot be successful and I try to stay away from them.

It is tough when venues that you know would be excellent for you don't give you the time of day - but I understand, They are swamped with quality acts - and they probably don;t need you! That doesn't stop me from trying - but it does make realize I just have to find another way in.

I don;t know what the answer is - I'm still working my ass off just trying to keep it going. BUT I do love what I'm doing!

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM

The m3u files seem not to play the mp3 files unless there is something I have not figured out.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM

Hey Jim - Easy Tiger - I said I liked it (even if it wasn't my genre).

I even made the point that I might not have listened to a representative sample. I also made the point that I was hypercritical.

May I suggest that you should point people from here at your main site, then we can all form a view?

I'm quite happy to revise my opinion if I find material having that effect on me.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 01:41 PM

with Bryan Robson as manager they havent a chance,He has failed everywhere he has been.ask some Middlesborough fans.
Red and White wizards,have you been at the Fly Agaric.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 01:13 PM

I take no heed of Folkie Dave,waffling on about surveys,of course he hasnt done any himself

You are right Dick I haven't. The difference is that I didn't claim to know the results of any.

As far as Sheffield United are concerned. I have seen them play nine times this season and the reserves twice. Under the new management of Brian Robson and Brian Kidd they are trying to get the ball down a play football as it ought to be played. They are improving, currently the form team of the Championship. COYRAWW! (Come on you red and white wizards).

Sorry for the thread drift.