photographing/recording musicians

Subject: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:04 AM

I do not mind being photographed providing im asked[like il duce I prefer a sideways profile].providing it is not being used for commercial purposes[including magazines etc]I also feel the same way about recording
I feel it is discourteous not to ask,how do others feel?Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:23 AM

Dunno it never happened to me.
You must be incredibly handsome and a very good artiste to have such problems.LOL
(Yes we know he is)

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:34 AM

In my experience, it's bloody hard getting people to stop photographing you when you're performing, no matter how you ask. It's very off-putting having all those camera flashes when you're trying to read your words.

It's even harder getting a decent picture of someone performing - they always seem to be grimacing, or have their eyes closed or bob about at the wrong moment. It's far easier to get them to pose beforehand or afterwards.

It's funny how an audience think nothing of clicking away at a folk concert but would hardly dream of doing so in a production of 'The Messiah'.

LTS

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:40 AM

I just wish that some of the people who have 'snapped' us when we were working would be polite enough to get an E mail address and forward copies !

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:11 AM

These days, at the beginning of nearly everything, in addition to being asked not to take photos, make recordings, or shoot videos, and in addition to being told to turn their cell phones off, people are also being asked to turn off everything with a luminous display, since it is impossible to list the range of other devices that people now bring to, and attempt to use during, theatrical performances. I suspect this, and not any sort of deference to high art, is why your "Messiah" is not photographically interupted.

For myself, I nearly never take pictures of folksingers, for the reasons that Liz has put forth. If you want good pictures, actors are the ticket, as they have studied such things as smiling, keeping their eyes open, and standing straight.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

I love taking photos of musicians, mainly close ups of fingers moving along the instrument (action shots if you like), but I ALWAYS ask before I take any photos, and the furthest they get is my living room wall, or my photo albumn.

I have taken my mini disk player to sessions before, but this is purely to aid me in learning new tunes. Again, I always ask if people mind and if they do, then I don't do it.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:00 PM

It's very off-putting having all those camera flashes when you're trying to read your words.

A good argument against reading lyrics when you're supposedly "performing"!

No offense, Liz (or anyone else who appears on a bandstand with "cheat sheets"). As I freely admitted in the recent thread on this subject, I've come to rely on notes at which I can glance, whereas when I was younger and led a much less complicated life, I could sing purely from memory, and I had a much larger working repertoire than I do today.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:49 PM

In these days of mobile phone cameras & recorders, there's very little anyone can do about it, unless you spot it.
I think it's the height of bad manners, incidentally, to photograph or record anyone without asking.

I was playing in a small pub for most of the summer; a 60 seater, where I'd be doing an hour or so, every night. I normally have my eyes closed when I sing (... that has gotten me into enough trouble over the years in itself...), but open them every once in a while during the space of a song (to see if anyone has a gun pointed at me).

I spotted someone 'acting suspiciously' (as we say in my neck of the woods...), and saw that he was trying to put a mini-disc into his wee recorder.

I just stopped the song, and looked at him til he turned around to see what was up, and then I ripped strips off him for being sneaky. I told him if he had have asked, and done the normal human moral thing, I'd have plugged his mini disc into the 'Tape Out' of the desk, for him

Lifting your instruments without permission is a NO NO

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:04 PM

A recording from the tape out of the desk usually sounds awful. The sound of the room is important, whether of not there is a PA.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

My point to him being that if he was polite about it, I would have accommodated him 100%.

Tape out recordings can be bad quality, I'll acknowledge that....

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

Gettin' photographed while perfroming is for me real nice... It means that folks are into yer music...

Recording??? Different story... It should never be done without permission...

Thems is the rules...

B~

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: open mike
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:28 PM

...As for video taping (which included visual images as well as sound)
it is best to get official, written permission for the right to do so.
If the artist does give permission, they will often want a copy. So to
give the performer contact information of the photographer/videographer is important.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,qtwf
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM

Hiya,

Oops.

Once more with text?

A quick look through:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_1.htm

seems to imply that still photos of a musical performance is not an infringement of copyright. Video or audio recording quite definitely is.

In my small involvement with such things I have always told people using video or audio recorders to stop, but not photographers.

UNLESS they are using a flashgun, which is an awful thing for everybody!

And if there's even halfway decent lighting you'll get way better pictures without!

Cheers,

Q

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bert
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:25 PM

What Bobert and Open Mike say.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:39 PM

Ah but Poppagator - I reiterate what I said on that thread about memory... I defy anyone to sing the full, uncut 'Messiah' from memory!

And as for Faure's Requiem.... that's even longer!

As far as I remember, we've never asked our audiences to turn anything off - there are signs posted around our venues (usually churches) about turning mobile phones off, but photographing a classical concert is not really done. Hardly anyone would be interested in recording us performing - the repertoire we have is freely available, by artists far superior to those we use.

LTS

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:13 AM

It's a generational/paradigm thing. Stuff changes.

For me, I never cared if folks took pictures or recorded my shows or whatever. I wanted to get the songs I'd found out there---for other sigers to find. I even took a photo of Pete Seeger while I was on stage with the man. I'd do that when, in a festival workshop with others, they were sitting right next to me on stage.   Back then, it didn't matter to them or to me. We just didn't think about it. I did it for 30 years off and on.

Art

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:51 AM

Every picture I've ever seen of me performing sucks. Eyes shut or when opened rolled into the back of my head or mouth wide open catching flies, head tossed back, hair in shambles, snare on my lips, droole dripping from both sides of the mouth AND nostrials, looking sideways like a puppy with a question, spitting as if I were giving a weather report. I don't mind the pictures being taken, I'd just like 1 good one.
I don't care about the recordings either but if someone were to do a video/audio I'd be happy to if they'd give me a copy.

Barry

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:27 AM

I really don't mind folks taking pictures, recording, videos etc..
I would however, prefer that they do not distract me by asking so I usually nod my approval or call out to them between lines when I notice them.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:54 AM

As far as recording is concerned - no problem as long as you ask first, though it does depend on the circumstances.
Photographs - also depends on the circumstances.
In the early days of the Willie Clancy Summer School we were attending the main concert and had got a seat in the front row (had no intention of recording).
The stage had been set up with the p.a mikes and those of the organisers, who recorded all the events for archiving, when in swept a very well-known English record producer. He re-sited all the existing mikes and placed his own centre-stage.
Everybody was far too polite to mention his behaviour until the fiddle player Sean Maguire, one of the guests, spotted him, jumped off the stage, walked over to your man and said; "My agent's name is *****, my recording fee is ******, and if I see your fingers anywhere near those buttons I'll f*****g dance on them.
As a footnote (no pun intended), the recordist issued a number of albums using similar techniques in different places.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:23 AM

I wonder if magazines etc, such as the Living Planet and Rough Guide to Ireland,ask permission before they take photographs of musicians.
These guides are commercial enterprises,I personally dont mind as long as I am asked ,I believe it is the correct thing to do,and to also offer a pint,or a free copy of the book.
It can cause problems for people on social security or pensioners,if they are photographed busking,as I understand it in England you are only allowed to earn a fiver a week,if you are a pensioner.
since the co editor of The Rough Guide,occasionally graces us with his august presence,I hope he notes these considerations and the problems these guides can cause.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:16 AM

Early in 1990, I was busking in O'Connell St. Ennis.

Before long three people (a German TV crew) with a 'TV standard' Video camera, a large outdoor microphone (covered with obligatory large smelly sock), and an equally imposing large tape recorder.

Without so much as a 'by your leave' they filmed me for 10 mins, 2 or 3 songs, and then as I was in the middle of the next song, they started to pack up and move up the street.
I stopped the song, and called them back, and told them that 'appearance money' gets paid in Germany too, right?
In that case, I told them, this is my bank account number, and after exchanging addresses and phone numbers (especially theirs), I let them go on their way.

4 months later, they deposited 500 quid into my account.

They would have buggered off, though, if I had have kept my mouth shut.

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:18 AM

Geoff dealt with that on another forum, Dick, as I'm sure you saw. I don't give a hoot about being snapped as long as we get time to hide the zimmers first. I don't mind being recorded and stuck up on YouTube either, as long as were playing a classy set of reels and not doing Wild Rover.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

I've heard classy versions of The Wild Rover, in fairness...

But that is the point, really.
If we don't set the limits at the start, then what we may think of as 'good publicity' can turn out being the direct opposite.

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:56 AM

I confess it bothers me when people record without permission - particularly when those recordings are then spread around. If people ask, I usually say "yes," unless there is a particular reason (ie, the performance was not up to my usual standards).

For performers with CDs, recording can get in the way of CD sales - which often (depending on the level of professionalism) pay for either hobby or rent. Some festivals and venues record everything as a matter of course - which is fine, for archival purposes. I've even known performers who have gotten wonderful live records out of that kind of situation - but if it's ever going to see the light of day, permission really should be sought.

Photos I don't mind, though flash photography during a performance can be distracting. But my art is the music, not my looks, and I like to retain a little artistic control over the former.

Dan

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:32 AM

SteveShaw,he dealt with it after I had posted here.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:33 AM

SteveShaw,I just hope hes commissioned photographers remember it too,apint and abit of courtesy does not go amiss

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:53 AM

Hey I'd forgotten all about that! A Danish T.V. crew filmed about 15 mins of me at a gig a few years back. Spoke to me during the break and asked me to stick to my own stuff while they filmed. COOOOL!
I never thought to ask for their bank account numbers but they seemed content to give me the publicity for free.
You don't get much past Jim Lad.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:55 AM

That would be a different scenario for me, Jim.
I'd be chuffed, too

I just don't like people taking the music (or me, for that matter) for granted.

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:51 PM

Call me Steve willya, Dick. You're as bad as that "Mr Shaw" brigade on you-know-where! ;-) Most people are friendly about their photography in our pub session and don't overdo it. They usually banter a bit with us even though they don't necessarily ask permission as such. That's good with me.   Unless you're a professional making a living out of playing I'd take it as a compliment that they want a memento of their night out. Unless you're an illegal immigrant or prison escapee of course!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:52 PM

Not you personally, I hasten to add!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:58 PM

Some of the above discussion reminds me of a group of my fellow street singers (buskers) in New Orleans back in the late 60s/early 70s.

Three very aged Black gospel singers (2 women & 1 man) who used to work the French Quarter were filmed and recorded for the movie Easy Rider. The visual image of them performing on the street appears only very briefly, but their singing continues for quite a bit longer and provides a very haunting soundtrack for the entire climactic Mardi Gras cemetery/acid-trip scene.

These very simple folk were accustomed to getting by on a very modest income, and (as old as they were) probably had no idea of the magnitude of resources available to a Hollywood filmmaking company. I have often wondered if they received appropriate payment; it would have been very easy to deceive them and buy them off very cheaply. My best guess is that they got a flat one-day payment as "extras" but no additional consideration for their sizeable and critical contribution to the musical setting of the film.

Incidentally, that film had already been produced, and I had already seen it, by the time I first arrived in New Orleans. When I first met the little gospel group, I did not immediately recognize them from the movie, and we never talked about it. It was only later, when I saw the film a second time, that I recognized my friends ~ who by that time had disappeared from the streets, probably gone off to nursing homes by that time if not to their eternal rewards.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

Dick Miles, there are no such 'magazines' as 'The Living Planet' and 'Rough Guide to Ireland' [at least, not in Ireland or the UK], but there are publishing companies called Lonely Planet and the Rough Guides. I happen to be, as you very well know, co-author of the latter's guide to OIreland.

I really do not understand why you have posted this question on three separate fora - this one, The Session and fRoots. My detailed answer to your question can be read on The Session, so I can only assume that you're on some kind of long-distance scavenger hunt.

Please do give it a rest.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:12 PM

Oh, beggar me, I didn't really mean to write 'OIreland'. Parapraxis, anyone?

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:09 PM

no,here is your detailed answer.
In the case of the Rough Guides, authors provide a detailed shot list for the photographer consisting of sights and attractions. Very few shots of musicians will appear in the forthcoming edition of the Ireland guide (or have featured in the previous editions which have included photographs). No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide
on page 179 of my Rough Guide,is a photograph of buskers at Temple bar Dublin,now what they were playing we[you or I] do not know,But it does show that photographs of buskers have been taken in the past,which is not the Impression you are trying to give.
the book is called Ireland [TheRoughGuide].

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:21 PM

This is becoming really infuriating.

I will quote my answer already given on The Session site:

Dick, unlike you, I am *very* careful with my words. I wrote 'No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.' The photograph in question (in the 5th edition of the guide, published in 1999) features only two musicians, a double bass player and a snare drummer. I happen to be familiar with them, they weren't busking and they were playing rockabilly. The photograph was taken with their permission. I suggest you withdraw your comment and apologize.

I should remind you, Dick, that on a previous Mudcat thread some time ago you made a claim regarding the supposed publication of a particular photograph in an edition the Rough Guide to Ireland and were forced to withdraw said allegation when I pointed out that no such photograph had ever appeared in the book. You subsequently sent me an apologetic PM.

It would be equally gracious of you now to withdraw your comment above.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

I apologise,and perhaps you might have the grace to apologise for your crass,and impolite remarks on Cross fertilisation thread on FROOTS,to which Ian Anderson had to remind you that everyone was entitled to ask questions,providing they were polite,you were completely out of order.
If you go around being out of order you must expect an adverse reaction,now lets get back to the thread.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:49 PM

Dick,

Thanks for your apology.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:56 PM

No. Dick you could have emailed this guy and settled things in private.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:27 PM

wHEN THEREIS ACAPTION THAT SAYS b

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:40 PM

There was a caption that said, Buskers Temple bar Dublin,if they were not buskers, why are you printing false information.
Jim lad ,
yes indeed I would have done if I had remembered he was a member ,unfortunately I didnt,Ihave apologised.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:54 PM

Not too many are big enough to apologize, I'll grant you that.
Nevertheless, this is the second defamatory thread in as many weeks. (not by you)
Time of year, I suppose.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:39 AM

To me this thread seemed a bit innocent at the start but there now seems that there was a hidden agenda. It was interesting enough until I felt like I was being drawn into someone's personnal laundry day.
You got some cleaning up to do Dick, or a bone to pick do it elsewhere!

Barry

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:03 AM

OK.
Let's get back on topic folks.
I'm in a quandary regarding media intrusion of any kind.

Example 1
About a year before he died, I was recording (Legitamately) Ivor Cutler at a concert in London for the BBC.
He stopped mid song at one point, and quietly said to a member of the audience.."Are you recording me?"........long pause......."Don't".

Example 2
Well known UK singer on spotting a video crew at the back of the hall, walked off stage, only returning when they'd left.

I would say that their actions were totally justified.

It all comes down to courtesy in the end.
If I'm playing in a session, and someone has a minidisc recorder as an aide memoire to learn a tune or two, no harm is done IMHO,

If it's obviously a professional (Vid/Audio/Photographer) then I would expect the people to seek permission first.

But then.....If it hadn't been for the bootleg recordings (not all, admittedly!!) of Nic Jones, then I wouldn't have been able to produce the Unearthed CD....Go figure!!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

I was at a local jazz gig in Galway last night. I knew they were keen to have some shots for their website, so brought along a recenty acquired, rather nice, digital camera. Not enough light to avoid flash. I waited till the last number then got into position and took a set as discreetly as possible (i.e. flash and a good zoom). The lady who currently runs the club shot across to me and I thought "Ooops!". In fact what she said was "Great! I forgot my camera tonight - can we have some copies please?." Of course!

Regards
p.s. For jazz heads: the group featured Bill Carrothers - excellent.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

Coo, rescued by your last sentence! ;-) I only wish I was good enough to attract the attentions of video crews and the like. I would heartily disapprove, but at least that's one row I wouldn't mind having! But a little photo or MD recording - where's the harm in that.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:36 AM

Ralphie was the intended recipient there.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:17 AM

Steve Old Fruit!
Exactly....

Common sense really.

My band did a gig last Saturday, and a friend took a load of informal digi pictures, and sent them to me next day.
Most were rubbish, but a couple were very funny!!
No problem with that at all, just more inserts for the scrapbook.

On another track, seeing as part of this discussion is about having photos being published without permission, I discovered that in the Sidmouth retrospective book published a couple of years ago, there is a pic of me....I was dead chuffed!!
(Mind you, you have to look very hard to see me!)

But, there again, I'm not Paul McCartney, (substitute any other name here).
I don't have an agenda, but if a TV crew wanted to film me (In my dreams) I'd expect to be paid for it.
Sadly, nobody seems to want to. Sob!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

As regards you tube,I have no objection providing I can check the material first.an artist has a right to have control over his own material.
Ihave in the past allowed people to record me[if it is not for commercial purposes]and generally speaking they have asked
This is one of my gripes regarding Celtic Music,the suppression of my recorded material,
however one lp that they do not own,has three tracks out there on dickmilesmusic youtube.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:59 AM

Dick.
As far as I know, I do not appear on You Tube.
And if I did, I don't really care if it was a good or bad performance. I couldn't control it, even if I wanted to.
Life's too short for me to be bothered.
The Web is a Pandoras box, which was opened many years ago.
Live with it.
And please, let us not open the can of worms that is Celtic Music.
Been there, done that.
Ralph

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM

Ralphie you can control it,you ask to have items removed.
In the same way, when one makes a recording it states quite clearly,no unauthorised recording without permission,that is what copyright law is all about.
now I think you tube is excellent,but material should not be put up without the artists permission,and personally I would want to see the video first:because I can sit at home and make my own video of myself and select the best of a couple of takes,I then have control over my material.
you may have been there and done it,but you are not suffering, I am,and no I cant record it again, exactly as it was because the same session musicians are not available.