BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM

Why, Donuel?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

Bee, ???. Do you somehow assume that my husband and I ignore what is wrong in religion? That anyone whose "good works" you find acceptable must be making a choice to live with blinders on? What you are doing is tokenizing the Christians whose works you "approve" of.

Sometimes I think that the anti-religionists have more faith than I do. Their faith points in the other direction-- it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness-- but it is so strong as to get along just fine without a lot of the logical thinking they seem to think is better than the kind of faith I live. I feel very sad for those of you living in that kind of reality.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

Any Reason?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness

Who claims that?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:11 AM

See

Thats what happens when religiosity defines itself as the opposite of athieism. Good evil, with us or against us, life death.

It may only start as a created fear of the "other" but given very little time that fear turns into hate like wine turns to vinigar.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

I think at the bottom, one of the major causes of animosity against SOME religionist positions is the disavowal of the correct sources of things.

As anyone knows who has had his work stolen and used by others without due credit, it can be very embittering to have one's own source-hood denied or nullified.

Good works come from good people. So, ultimately, do good religions. The problem many people experience with religious cosmology is the notion that a Great Source, external to the being, should be acknowledged for all existence. This finds its ultimate expression in the ordinary dialogue of Muslims who, for example, greet all good news with "En'shallah", and who when spoken to of gratitusde for some favor, reply "Don't thank me, thank Allah." SOme Chriatian world-views are very similar. The whole notion that God has mysterious plans for you, and knows all, governs all, is the source of all, especially as it is often translated to small children, can easily become a very toxic and disempowering belief.

Granted it tries to offer an explanation for a set of phenomena that physics seems to have no answer to. But it seems patently clear that if the answers were closer to "truthiness" they would produce less arbitrary explosions, produce better results in application more broadly, and would not spin off so many radical alternative theories. Above all, they would aligbn with individual experience on a wider basis. BEing told that these analytical criteria need to be displaced by an act of faith is easily dismissed as copping a non-rational plea. While spiritual matters may not be measurable in the terms of phsyics itself, that is no reason why they should not be rational, and it often happens (because they often resort to authority alone as their fundamental) that the various religions we know of fail this test.

This is not to say that there is no such subject as spiritual matters; just that it has not been well-addressed in any demonstrable way, or at least has no widely used vocabulary that meets this test.

The theories of phlogiston and caloric fluid and aether and humors and the tides of the blood are all examples of parallel situations in the history of material science. The deathless line attributed to a London gentleman who attended the early presentation of the theory of circulation comes to mind. The young Dr. Harvey, who presented his research suggesting the hyeart was a pump and the veins, arteries and capillaries acted as pipelines for blood, was flying in the face of received wisdom going back to the ancient Greek father of medicine, Galen of Pergamum (AD 129 -c. 216), was a prominent Greek physician, whose theories dominated medical science for over 1300 years. So entrenched was the authority of Galen, who asserted the model of tides and humours, that this gentleman is alleged to have said "I would find it better to be wrong, but side with Galen, than to be right with Harvey.".

This is not to gainsay any of the good that comes from religous-based organization, nor to minimize any of the harm. People in every walk of life are often loopy, or spinny, or even whacky. But I think it is observable that when they have good data about their own situation they get a lot less loopy -- meaning data that matches up to experience and observation. And when they are working with bum data -- superstition, lies, authoritarian manipulations, false entities, distorted importances, or any other kind -- they tend to get even loopier. I could go on, but I doubt it will benefit any of us for me to rattle on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:51 AM

Anyone should be able to have a conversation about religion or their belief system without later having remorse about how they feel or what they may have said to angst someone else. Funny how defensive folks get when it does come to challenging their beliefs.

How one interprets religion is more than probably from past experience with that religion.
I have an example of that in my own life when I was young(er)

I was into Christianity and I loved Jesus. So much I wanted to become a minister myself. One day I approached my minister and told him this. His response was-"Women can't be ministers"
Well talk about shattered dreams.
That was a changing moment for me. I was angry. I thought what bullshit is this? Where is the equality and justice in this religion.
In hindsight, though, it actually was the best thing to happen to me because it journeyed me past the structured religion and sent me seeking for my own beliefs and spirituality.
What a journey I am on!!


I have been following this thread and it's been a good one. Lots of revelations and good discussion. People like to talk about religion and beliefs, so it seems. It's who we are after all, whether it be structured religion, philosophy or id.

Amos-Thanks for that link on Mark Morford-SF Gate. He is great!! I read his archives last night and find him delightfull!


Carry on good foks!
Peace.
Rustic


P.S.-Right now the good book to me is the dictionary! Tautology, solipsistic....

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

Lovely6 post, RR. Thanks.

The Onion has a take on the Richard Roberts scandal which is germane to what I was saying in an indirect, tongue-in-cheek way.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM

And a lot of kneejerk reactions that, unfortunately, tend to land on nearby arses.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:06 PM

Thet thar was no knee-jerk. Hit wuz an IED (improvised emotioonal device).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

I don't have much tolerance for religion but I don't really talk about it with people because they all get pissed off and what's the point?

But I've had it up to here with religious phonies. I really don't have problem with someone who goes to church and lives a quiet life and doesn't want to rock the boat too much--just lead a good, quiet life. That's fine.

I hate the activists. Why aren't we seeing a massive outpouring of Christians protesting the tobacco companies for example?? And I don't care if they're hardcore RW fanatics or the kinder, gentler variety. Where are they? These corporations are poisoning us--all of us, addicting people and laying 400,000 a year in their graves in America alone. I would play more open mic nights at the bars--they've asked me to and I would like to--but I cannot stand the smoke-filled rooms. Once every few months is all I can tolerate.

Where are the Christians trying to put the tobacco giants out of business? They can elect and reelect an asshole president, they can build gigantic churches, they can rake millions in donations every year and not pay a cent in taxes, they can own television networks, open state-of-the-art bible colleges, rant and rave endlessly about morality--but they can't get off their goddamn asses and put a truly immoral, destructive industry of ruthless drug pushers out of business. They can whine about Terri Schaivo lying comatose and brainless in her hospital bed but ignore all the ones hacking their lungs out in hospices waiting to die.

They can go into the street and lay down in front of abortion clinics and scream how life is sacred but they can't do that in front of R.J. Reynolds corporate HQ. They can shoot a doctor but not a tobacco exec whose doing everything in his power to addict your children and succeeding at it because no one's stopping him.

Don't talk to me about the good you do. SHOW ME! I'm sick of your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

Amazing how many people refer to Christians as simply "they." As if Christians were a monolithic group, all alike.

On the other hand, there are Christians who do the same thing with atheists and agnostics.

The world ain't that simple, folks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

Invasion of the Bible thumpers! I love it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM

We can "they" Muslims, we can "they" gays, we can "they" antiwar and prowar people, we can "they" blacks, we can "they" Jews, we can "they" anybody we want. We can "they" Christians. They've done too much fucking shit up and never having to explain themselves. Everybody else gets "they'd" so can Christians. Christians do more "they-ing" than anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

This is clearly a USA problem, isn't it? ;-) I mean, look, if you were living in Canada or France or Great Britain, or Italy I don't think there'd be nearly so much polarization happening between people over religion. Matter of fact, I know there wouldn't be.

Perhaps it is partly because your American politicians have deliberately pandered to and encouraged such polarization in their efforts to manipulate the results at the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:22 PM

Hmm...so many people talking about religion. Perhaps there is hope after all. What is important here is that the dialogue continues, for that is how we know that we are all connected to each other...different bodies...one soul. Ed, although I cannot give you empirical proof, other than a long anthopological history of cultures reaching higher and realizing that they don't have control over things like earthquakes, floods, rain, etc., after a long and challenging journey, I can tell you God does, in fact, exist. Do not call Him He, or She, or It, for God is beyond anyhting that you can imagine or explain. And do not imbue Him with things like anger, wrath,punishment or vengeance, or try to make Him into a deified version of man. He is not any of these. The only reason I use He, is because I need to speak in a language that has some sort of universal understanding. I can only tell you that if you seek to find God, you will find God.
    By the way, it is my understanding that the various Hindu Deities are not separate beings, but different aspects of the One Central Godhead. Any Hindus out there may correct me if I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:35 PM

Well said, haddocker. You are correct that the various Hindu deities are simply aspects of the one Divine....which is not a human-like entity at all, but a principle which encompasses all of reality as we know it, and then some. In order that the common people could relate to that principle, it was clothed, so to speak, or translated into the various gods and goddesses, each of which was one of its attributes...like the facets on a diamond. This, people decided to do, in order that they could relate to what was in itself so large that it was completely incomprehensible.

It is itself indefinable, indescribable, and infinite. The infinite is everywhere, and everything is a part of it.

It is NOT the "God" that Guest, Ed is objecting to! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

"...American politicians have deliberately pandered to and encouraged such polarization in their efforts to manipulate the results at the polls."

            LH - I think Robert F. Kennedy has this one nailed. He explained in an interview I watched some time back that the true secular American conservatives couldn't get their program off the gound. There just weren't enough converts, as witnessed by what happened to Barry Goldwater in 1964. So they went after the religious right to bulk up their numbers and forged a coalition. That way the conservatives got power, and the RR got access to power.
          What they ended up doing is electing Ronald Reagan in 1980, and America has been on the skids since that time.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:44 PM

Yeah, that's right, Rinslinger...and it's NOT the fault of religion itself. It's the fault of unscrupulous politicians who have cynically used religious divisions in your society to drive a wedge between people. They did it for their own gain.

The same thing happens in Trinidad, I am told by my Trinidad friends, around every election campaign. While the Christians, Muslims, and Hindus in Trinidad normally get along very well...when election time rolls around the Trini politicians deliberately inflame the religious communities against each other by raising all sorts of divisive issues. They do it to get people voting in blocs, and it greatly harms the society.

That again is NOT the fault of religion...it's the fault of cynical politicians playing games of divide and conquer.

I would suggest that every time people in the USA fall for the temptation to demonize others because they ARE or ARE NOT religious, they are falling right into the trap that some of their politicians have set for them. They have been duped into becoming bigots so some jerk can get himself elected.

Most unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bee
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:31 PM

Quote: "Bee, ???. Do you somehow assume that my husband and I ignore what is wrong in religion? That anyone whose "good works" you find acceptable must be making a choice to live with blinders on? What you are doing is tokenizing the Christians whose works you "approve" of.

Sometimes I think that the anti-religionists have more faith than I do. Their faith points in the other direction-- it's a faith that no matter what reality confronts you, you can still find justifcation to claim that evil is more powerful than goodness-- but it is so strong as to get along just fine without a lot of the logical thinking they seem to think is better than the kind of faith I live. I feel very sad for those of you living in that kind of reality.

~Susan

My initial thought is that you have mostly misread my post. I don't think I am 'tokenising' anybody. I think I am trying to point out that Christians 'tokenise', separating themselves from Christian wrongdoing by claiming to be 'not like that' or 'those wrongdoers aren't real Christians'. I'm saying own them - not 'you' meaning you personally Susan, but generically, 'you well-meaning tolerant Christians'. If some group or some preacher is part of the problem, and is not acting as a Christian, speak out. We have been complaining about this issue for years, that mainstream Christians rarely address the hysterical Christian fringe, and then complain when comparisons are made.

Your second paragraph, AFAICS, doesn't relate to anything I posted, and isn't true, either. I do not claim anywhere that evil is more powerful than good. No need to feel sad for me. I'm an optimistic person who expects most people on some level do try to do good, even if they get it wrong sometimes.

And that's it. Take it or leave it, it is what I think.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:34 PM

"What they ended up doing is electing Ronald Reagan in 1980, and America has been on the skids since that time."

I'd rephrase this as "What they ended up doing is electing Richard Nixon in 1969, and America has been on the skids since that time"

Remember Dickie's "silent majority".

Dickie was also a Quaker ... hard to beleive.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Blow it off all you want, 282RA, but "they-ing" is the primary reason people are oppressing each other and killing each other all over the world. Always has been and probably always (at least until everybody kills everybody else off) will be.

Cramming a large part of the world's population into one conveniently labeled pigeonhole is a way of not having to bother to think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

Epiphanies, demonstrations of other dimensions, feeling the ineffable...I've had em. I liked em too.
But I damn well am not going to start a new religion and make a fortune in the god business or invest my entire life to a single religion for answers.

Its the questions that linger that are most treasured.
Some of the questions may well have answers in our midst and others may not.

Tribalism, bigotry, fear and hate too easily lead the initiated and uninitiated alike into human conflict in the name of religiosity.
Even if it is a secular power like China seeking to destroy Tibetan Buddism.

Maybe a religion that address tribalism bigotry fear etc is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:00 PM

There are Christians and then there are Christians. Susan walks the walk AND talks the talk. That would put her on the side of the angels imo. I do not care particularly that Mother Teresa was Catholic. She would have been a 'saint' in any country. Good people are good people.

That said, I believe in G-d. It's religion(s) I don't have any truck with.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mary!
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

I will repeat what i posted earlier today but for some unknown reason my post disappeared; There is only one God but with many different branches, only thing is they keep fighting each other!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:22 PM

Finally at a loss for words, Amos? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:28 PM

Mary, For all you know it might take 2 gods. Everything else in the Universe seems to support some kind of dualism for existence.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

No, not at all, M. Hack. Why should I be? We have a rich dialogue with far-seeing, deeply-feeling people offering their views. As it happens I am more on the side of Peace and perhaps Polytheism than I am on the side of any particular religious package. But hell, I am never at a loss for words, sir, as I am sure you know by now.

Here's some for ya: The problem with packaged religions is that packaging spoils all the flavor.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM

Yes, and things go stale when they're left in the package too long... ;-)

Donuel, perhaps it is one God manfisting in the forms OF duality: both infinite and finite, both here and there, both light and darkness, both "good" and "evil".

We need duality, you see, otherwise we wouldn't be able to distinguish our separate existence or the separate existence of anything else! We wouldn't have anything else to compare ourselves to.

They say that enlightenment is achieving the awareness that there is no duality, that all is One. At that point, all strife ends, all desire ends, there is only pure Being.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:57 PM

>>>Blow it off all you want, 282RA, but "they-ing" is the primary reason people are oppressing each other and killing each other all over the world. Always has been and probably always (at least until everybody kills everybody else off) will be.

Cramming a large part of the world's population into one conveniently labeled pigeonhole is a way of not having to bother to think.<<<

No, I'm not falling for that. I'm not going to qualify my statements that I don't mean this Christian or that because then all of them start think "He doesn't mean me." Yes, I do. Christians have proven they can organize and coordinate their activities so I don't want to hear this "We're not all doing that." Doesn't matter. They're supposed to be Christians, they're supposed to care, they're supposed to be moral. Very well, then, organize a movement to shut down the tobacco companies--put them out of business. No mercy, no exceptions. Do it.

If they want power, they will have it like they never had it before. March in the streets, write articles, pressure politicians, out the ones that do the bidding of these companies and threaten to boot their asses out into the cold without so much as a fig leaf for protection. Go on TV and bitch about what these people are doing. DEMAND the govt release a FULL LIST of EVERYTHING that these executive meth lab operators put in cigarettes (it's currently illegal to release a full list, anyone who does will go to prison) so that people can see what crap is being peddled to them that they are not being told about. Show interviews with the cancer-stricken.

For once, Christians and scientists will be on the same side. Many people will quit smoking once they see what is being done to them. Prosecute the people responsible for the madness, show how much money is saved every year not having to treat so many cancer patients.

To regard abortion as a bigger menace to society than cigarettes reveals a bankrupt morality. But going after the tobacco giants is something Christians of all stripes can unite on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM

Heh! Well, 282RA, why don't you convert to Christianity then, and start organizing all the Christians you can to join in massive public action against the tobacco industry? The mere fact that you are standing aside may be what's holding them back!!! ;-) They NEED your leadership and inspiration, man!

Seriously....I know any number of nominal Christians who are against smoking and against the tobacco industry. I know a lot of Christians who DON'T think abortion is a bigger problem than the sale of tobacco. Get serious, man. Your efforts to pretend that you are not tarring a whole lot of innocent people needlessly with the same brush when you talk about what you call "Christians" are approaching an excess of satirical self-justification that would embarrass Jerry Lewis.

Nothing can please someone with the kind of accusatory, condemnatory attitude you are bringing to this discussion. It wouldn't matter what "Christians" did or didn't do, you'd still be bitching about them.

And note, 282RA...I am not a Christian. I'm just a free being who recognizes blind prejudice when I hear it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:40 PM

Haven't heard any opinions from any of the Wiccans regarding this thread.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:08 PM

Little Hawk said it. Saved me the trouble. Thank you, Little Hawk!

By the way, here's the big split that runs all through your handy monolithic view of Christianity, 242RA (and undoubtedly through your other monolithic groups as well):   get a bunch of Christians together and, unless it's some group like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (and although they make a lot of noise, there are not that many of them), you'll have a hard time getting them to agree on much of anything! That's why there are as many Christian denominations as there are.

Gotta broaden your focus and try to learn what the world is really like.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:09 PM

Little Hawk, your problem--and we talked about this before--is that you are a fundamentalist at heart. You are simply unable to accept an atheist or agnostic position. Whenever it is expressed, you become incensed and unable to deal with it in an intelligent manner. Let's take a look:

"But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words."

What is useless about someone expressing an opinion that there is no god? Nothing. It's a perfectly legitimate topic to post about if he wished to. There's no rule here that says he can't. You have NO RIGHT to berate someone this way. You do have the right to stay the fuck off the thread if the topic is of such little interest to you as you claim.

But it is of intense interest to you, isn't it? You CAN'T deal with people expressing an atheistic opinion. And your first resort is the incredibly childish "Oh I used to be that way when I was young and rebellious but not anymore" Translation: Only someone immature and needing attention is an atheist. Let's take a look:

"Amos, no, I haven't gotten around to reading Mr Dawkins yet. Why? His general premise (going by what I hear about him) just doesn't interest me enough to bother looking into it. There are a lot of other things I'm more likely to read before I get around to reading him. I mean, hell, I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager...and that was a long time ago. I think I've outgrown such crass and prejudicial attitudes, hopefully."

You have no idea what Dawkins has written and you don't care. You so outgrew this long ago and are so much more mature than people who express Dawkins' point of view. You are a pathetic little man and that should be your true moniker--Little Man. I berated you in private about this attitude of yours and you seemed to stop for a while but now you are back at it again full throttle. The arrogant one is you. The one who contributes nothing but judgmental bullshit is you.

You know this, so what you do is project that onto people who do not measure up to you oh-so-mature "I was blind but now I see" attitude.

Now let's examine your amazing self-righteousness in all its glory:

"Seriously....I know any number of nominal Christians who are against smoking and against the tobacco industry. I know a lot of Christians who DON'T think abortion is a bigger problem than the sale of tobacco."

Yes, let's introduce useless anecdotal evidence in an literally incredible, transparent, lame attempt to once again make your pronouncement that those who do not share your views of religion are arrogant and condemanatory.

"Get serious, man."

I am serious, man.

"Your efforts to pretend that you are not tarring a whole lot of innocent people needlessly with the same brush when you talk about what you call "Christians" are approaching an excess of satirical self-justification that would embarrass Jerry Lewis."

Even if this was true, I do not resort to the self-serving, arrogant attitude of "once I was like you, when I was young and stupid and needed something to rebel against but I grew out of it, so what's your problem?" As if anyone who is an atheist just hasn't grown up like you obviously have. You're a hypocrite besides being a complete asshole.

"Nothing can please someone with the kind of accusatory, condemnatory attitude you are bringing to this discussion."

The discussion is that there are no gods. You have no right to come here and act like I butted into some kind of Christian fellowship meeting. It is you who busted in and it is you who have brought an accusatory and condemnatory attitude here and I might add--VERY ARROGANT asshole attitude. Your whine comes more from the fact that I--someone whose views of religion you are unable to intelligently tolerate--made a suggestion to Christians that is actually very practical and that's what bugs you. How dare I--a mere little atheist bug--suggest something to Christians that you and they know they should have been doing long ago instead wasting time trying to hijack the republican party to push a shameless, self-serving agenda. They doesn't bug you, though, because at least they're not atheists.

>>It wouldn't matter what "Christians" did or didn't do, you'd still be bitching about them.<<

And it wouldn't matter what atheists do or don't do, you'd still mouth off your idiotic arrogant bullshit to them because you do it in every single post on the subject. The proof is that we've had this discussion before and you are still doing it. Now let's go back to your first insolent statement and see it for what it is:

"But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words."

That's exactly what he got: YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:11 PM

One thing in cigarettes that they don't disclose is a fair amount of benzene.

No duality if all is one?

Well vivre la diffrence anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:17 PM

Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:17 PM

>>By the way, here's the big split that runs all through your handy monolithic view of Christianity, 242RA (and undoubtedly through your other monolithic groups as well):   get a bunch of Christians together and, unless it's some group like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (and although they make a lot of noise, there are not that many of them), you'll have a hard time getting them to agree on much of anything! That's why there are as many Christian denominations as there are.<<

Translation: Christianity is essentially useless because we can't even agree on what's moral and what isn't.

Thanks, that's EXACTLY what I've been bitching about.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:23 PM

Ingredients in a cigarette.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM

>>One thing in cigarettes that they don't disclose is a fair amount of benzene.<<

They released a partial list some years ago, if I remember correctly and I think benzene was on that list. I think acetone was too. I mean, THAT's what they told us about. I can only wonder what they still decided to keep secret because benzine and acetone are two EXTREMELY toxic substances. Hell, nicotine is one of the most powerful poisons known to man.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:26 PM

>>Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.<<

Holy shit, he looks pissed!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:40 PM

>>Ingredients in a cigarette.<<

A very partial list. But even ingredients as acetic acid--which I believe is just vinegar--is there for some reason and may seem harmless but, as the host of that site points out, who knows what it does to you when it's burned and drawn into the lungs and mixed with whatever else you're burning and drawing into your lungs with each puff?

I know when I leave a bar after playing an open mic show, I have to shuck off my clothes and shake them out before washing them and I don't dare go to bed without a good scrub-down in the shower. In the morning, I can still smell the shit because it's coating the insides of my nostrils and throat. I have to take a lot of time off between performances because I can't deal with it. I don't know how for the life of me people smoke that garbage day after day after day. I don't let people smoke in my house either. The last time someone did (my brother's wife who didn't even ask if it was okay before lighting up which pissed me off), I could smell it three days later. Smokers don't understand that nonsmokers' sense of smell is far more sensitive than theirs and that it just plain stinks like hell. They don't get it. They act like you're an asshole if you complain about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:49 PM

definately don't smoke in front of her (whether your wiccan, athiest, or whatever)!!

YIKES !!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:16 AM

Great picture, Peace!

282RA - My, my, you are quite concerned about this, aren't you? Just as much as you claim that I am.

So who put the monkey on your back? ;-) Why can't you stay away from these threads and this subject?

I do not object to people stating that they are atheists. I object them trying to force everyone else to be one too by suggesting that everyone who isn't an atheist is an idiot...that is why I objected to the post that started this thread. As I've said many times, I would far rather be around some honest, dependable atheists, than some dishonest, undependable people who are religious! Underline that. Most of all, I'd rather be around honest, dependable people who live their own beliefs in peace and allow others to do the same. I ENJOY being in a society with many beliefs, many viewpoints. I don't WANT everyone to be the same.

I think you are suffering from the same problem you accuse me of...and if you want an understanding of why I'm interested in it, you need to read some advanced spiritual writings that Christian fundamentalists have never looked into in their lives and never will...but you never will either, because you're not uninterested in such writings. Just like I'm uninterested in Mr Dawkins. If he wants to convince me that fundamentalist Christians are wrong, he'd be telling me something I already knew a long, long time ago!!! ;-)

As far as I'm concerned you're railing at people similar to yourself (religious fundamentalists) because their fossilized attitude toward life and their rank prejudice toward those who don't share their values reminds you of yourself. It's the mirror-image of you. They hate you like you hate them.

Their left hand is your right hand, and vice versa.

Keep in mind, I'm talking rather dispassionately here. I see no reason to engage in the sort of highly emotional spewing of hatred and personal insults that our disagreement on this subject brings forth out of you...because what good would it do? And why should I hate you, just because we disagree about something?

It's not that important, believe me. There will be plenty of religious fundamentalists, plenty of atheists, and plenty of prejudice between them both long after you and I are dead and gone.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:18 AM

Fundamentalist Atheist as just as insane as Fundamentalist members of ANY Religion...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:23 AM

I don't think tobacco companys have anything to do with Christianity. Why lay that on Christians alone?

Now don't go gettin off on me about this 282RA, I agree that tailor made cigarettes are nasty, chemically induced, and poisonous. I agree the tobacco co.'s should stop what they're doing to tobacco, but...

Tobacco has been around a long time used not only as a medicinal but it is considered sacred to certain cultures and used, for one example, by Shamans in ceremonial practice. Tobacco actually has a very interesting history to it.
Some might even say, um, God put it here on this earth.

Peace.
Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:29 AM

The reason I come to all these threads, by the way, is simple, 282AR. Spirituality in all its various wonderful varieties fascinates me. I would rather talk about the spiritual nature of life and man than about anything else at all. As far as I'm concerned, it's the world's most interesting subject....and it is NOT dependent upon belief in any diety...though it can definitely go into that possibility.

If you were to study Taoism or Buddhism, for instance, you would find no deity. Taoism is the most sensible spiritual philosophy I've come across yet. Buddhism is very sensible too, but I like Taoism a bit better because it has a more cheerful outlook on life.

I am not a Taoist, but I like Taoism. I am not a Buddhist, but I like Buddhism. I am not a scientist, but I like scientific thought and scientific information. I am not a Christian, but I like the philosophy that Jesus appears to have taught (according to what writings we have about him). I am not a Hindu, but I like the writings in the Baghavad Gita and the Upanishads. There's much of value there. I'm not a Muslim, but I find much in value in their writings and their cultural history...quite aside from the fundamentalist extremes we see in some of their followers today.

I don't have the enemies that you seem to have. And I don't want to.

I don't see any benefit in having enemies, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

I don't see any benefit in having enemies, frankly.

Well, LH, consider how much spice having a good enemy adds to life! How much drama!! Suddenly, there's tension, a plot, an obstacle to overcome, counter-forces to be out-manuvered! Intentions to be thwarted!! Survival to be gained!! Yaaaayyyyy, team!! Go, go, go!! Hurl 'em back to Nassau, Eli! Bulldog, bulldog!!

And so on.

But, of course, there really is only one Enemy, just as there is only one Friend and one God and one Mentor, and that is the Self.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

As a Born again Christian (someone who is born again in Christ, and Christ lives in me and I in him) (preaching now Stop it) so as far as i'm conserernd (spelling) there's a God, if there wasn't a God then why celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ, the son of God) then.

But then that is up to you.

I hope you all a merry Chrsitmas

and may your god/God go with you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:20 AM

Peace

Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.

Looks like the Flying Sphagetti Monster to me.