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BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 07 - 07:42 PM "n a case now pending in a federal court in Brooklyn, Mamie Manneh of Staten Island stands accused of having brought smoked bushmeat – known colloquially as monkey meat – into the United States without proper permits, in violation of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. Ms. Manneh's defense is that in her religion the eating of bushmeat has both a cultural and a spiritual significance. In an affidavit, 17 of her co-religionists declared, "We eat bushmeat for our souls." Manneh's lawyer, Jan Rostal, has analogized the African-based practice to the consumption at a Passover seder of foods like bitter herbs "that might have some reference to the Exodus." In a motion to dismiss, Rostal said that the case, while apparently novel, "represents the sort of clash of cultural and religious values inherent in the melting pot that is America." No, it doesn't. It represents a more fundamental clash: between the imperatives of religion and the rule of law. The question raised by the case is whether the fact of a religious belief is sufficient to exempt the believer from the application of generally applicable laws — laws (like driving on the right-hand side of the road) that apply to every citizen no matter what his or her religious, ethical or moral convictions. Is religious belief a special case, so special that the devout practitioner gets a pass?" The above introduces a long and thoughtful essay by Stanley Fish in the New York Times on the delicate balance between the commons and acts based on faith. I recommend it for a wide background on the isue. It can be found on this page. It is entitled "Monkey Business: RELIGION AND THE LAW" |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:39 PM Liar, liar, pants on fire! Ya can't fool me that easily. ;-) (that was directed toward Peace) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Janie Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:16 AM Thanks for that link, Amos. As I've followed this thread, I keep thinking that it is no more, and no less, than a reflection of the the dynamic that exists within the duality of freedom - control. I know virtually nothing about any of the sciences, but my impression is this duality is inherent in all the known processes and systems of the known universe. It seems to me, (and this may simply be my ignorance,) that this duality, and the paradox it embodies are an essential component of all the dynamic systems that make up creation, whether one is considering particles, molecules, genomes and amoeba, or stars, solar systems and universes. If all that existed was One (and one what doesn't matter, all that matters is that whatever it is, it is all there is, there is only one of it, and it is made up of only One - no component parts or internal systems) then the freedom-control duality would not exist. Add something else, anything else, and the duality and the accompanying paradox are there. It seems to me to be pure logic. Religion is not faith. Faith is not spirituality. Concepts of God or Not-God or No-God, are not religion, faith, or spirituality. Beliefs are anything one accepts as fact or as true without proof that it is. No man or woman operates in the world without beliefs. We all have beliefs about ourselves, others and the world that largely, and often unconsciously, determine how we interact with others and the rest of creation. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have yet to encounter any human being who moves through the world and interacts with other people in such a way as to suggest they are completely free of all cognitive distortions, or completely aware of all the ways their cognitive distortions interfere with their perceptions. Thus the tenet, common in the social sciences, that what one believes to be true has real consequences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Stu Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:11 AM Carl Sagan summed it up for me (and I am paraphrasing here). If there is no God, no omnipresent, omnipotent divine entity in the universe and each of us is nothing more than an aggregation of elements and compounds, our thoughts and dreams simply electrical impluses speeding through synapses and nerves that owe their existence to chance and chemistry, then consider this. We are made up of the elements that comprise the whole universe - these elements were created in the exploding hearts of supernovae, in the fiery cauldrons of gas and plasma where stars are born, in the depths of volcanos and driven from the nuclear core of a thousand million suns. We are the stuff of the universe, made of it's raw materials and we are conscious of it. We can contemplate our own existence and stand on our small planet and question our very reason for being. We are the universe itself made conscious, the universe contemplating itself, and that makes each one of us so valuable, unique and so full of potential it is truly staggering to comprehend. All this, at the very least. If we are just biomechanical machines. No God(s). To my mind, that is truly wondrous and inspirational. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Mr Red Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:05 AM I have faith in human nature. Faith that there are good people out there and shits who live off that. What faith doesn't give me is the insight to spot the shits. Experience did it. And not very well. And yes Mr Sagan was ............. sagacious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:11 AM There is no reason to limit the set of possible solutions to (1) there is a Gos )2) we arw just matter only. There may, as a third option, be billions of gods, doing a giant averaging act. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:17 AM Go Janie! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: TheSnail Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:23 AM Sorry, Amos but Gos does not exist! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Peace Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:42 AM Sorry, Snail, but From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia gOS is a Linux distribution created by gOS LLC, a Los Angeles-based corporation[1]. The company advertises it as "An alternative OS with Google Apps and other Web 2.0 apps for the masses."[2] Gos DOES exist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: TheSnail Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:55 AM Peace Gos DOES exist. I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT! I WILL SIN NO MORE. PRAISE BE TO GOS. (Is there an alternative OD?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Peace Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM Hallaluyah/halalooyuh/hallaylooyah/ JOY! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM Let us all kneel before Gos and offer thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:23 AM Put your faith in Gos, and you will find Her/it soon enough. She/it appears to those who have faith in Her/it. Gos helps those who help themselves, but not too much. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Peace Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:36 AM Yo: "apps for the masses" |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Wesley S Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:42 AM So if you're a dyslexic follower of Gos do you stay awake at night wondering if there is a Sog? |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Mrr (at home, who ate my cookie?) Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM T-shirts available online somewhere: 1) Militant Agnostic: I don't know and you don't either! 2) Militant Apatheist: I don't care about your silly god! 3) Militant Atheist: There's no goddamn god, goddamn it! What I find dumb is the denial of reality to allow for your faith. If believers would accept reality, and believe that their god created the world to seem to have that reality, that would be fine. E.g. - the Earth is 6000 years old and Humans were created on the 6th day of creation and it was made to appear as if evolution and geology were true. That seems fine. The denial of evolution or deep time, though, is worse than ignorant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:26 AM T-shirts I'd LIKE to see available online somewhere: 1) Rude Agnostic: I don't know and you don't either! 2) Rude Apatheist: I don't care about your silly god! 3) Rude Atheist: There's no goddamn god, goddamn it! What I find rude is the insistence that someone else ought to tell me when I'm being dumb, and in what way. And BTW, Anglican spirituality and theology DO deal with the scientific "realities" so many "militantly rude atheists" ASSUME have not been considered. It always surprises me to see so much perfectly good bathwater being thrown out, given the worldwide concerns about water shortages. ;~) And quite often, there are puir innocent babies in that bathwater, too, swirling down the metal drains of these rude militants. ;~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:27 AM coorex meNtal drains ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM Janie, Beautifully put. The inherent origin of the apparent duality? BIG question, yes? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Bert Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:49 AM Your baby has gorn dahn the plug'ole |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Bill D Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:07 PM I 2nd Amos' & Susan's applause of Janie's post. That was coherent, meaningful and worthy of saving & re-reading....especially the last part. therefore: "Religion is not faith. Faith is not spirituality. Concepts of God or Not-God or No-God, are not religion, faith, or spirituality. Beliefs are anything one accepts as fact or as true without proof that it is. No man or woman operates in the world without beliefs. We all have beliefs about ourselves, others and the world that largely, and often unconsciously, determine how we interact with others and the rest of creation. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have yet to encounter any human being who moves through the world and interacts with other people in such a way as to suggest they are completely free of all cognitive distortions, or completely aware of all the ways their cognitive distortions interfere with their perceptions. Thus the tenet, common in the social sciences, that what one believes to be true has real consequences. I used to grade essays in a beginning Philosophy class, and I often |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: M.Ted Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:10 PM I've heard it all before--there is no God. No such thing as Love. Jazz isn't music, and Chocolate doesn't make you feel good. I almost believed it, too, til they tried to sell me a carburator that could get you from Pensacola, Florida to Kenosha, Wisconsin on one tank of gas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:42 PM And God never made no little green apples, And it don't rain in Minneapolis In the wintertime.... (I always thought rhyming "apples" and "Minneapolis" was a ballsy move....) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:54 PM Wishful thinking... Grasping at straws... Deathbed conversion = cramming for finals. Life after death? Wishful thinking...! What goes around... ...comes around. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Stringsinger Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:57 PM I went through a period sometime recently where I was a little too beligerent when it came to the discussion of religion. I have met some fine people who I admire that have their religious beliefs inform their behavior in positive ways. If I have offended any of these people, I apologize profusely. I believe the First Amendment to the Constitution is a Golden Principle. It defends the rights of people to believe whatever they want. I don't think it is constructive to belittle anyone's belief system if they are committed to it on a personal level. I have been mistaken in finding it necessary to defend my non-belief through a negative discourse. The bottom line for me is how do people behave? If they are loving, socially constructive, good human beings then what does it matter what their personal religious beliefs are? I think that when people who are non-believers such as myself become aggressive and nasty it accomplishes nothing useful. There are those who are believers that I love dearly. I believe that love and a nurturing community are the real "values" that make sense to me. I am more impressed by how folks behave then what they profess to believe. I have found folk music to be a great healer. It brings people together of all persuasions. Animosity and differences melt away when folks sit down to sing and play together. In short, anger doesn't get it. Only reason and responsible behavior are the best allies. Apologetically yours, Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:18 PM Well said, Frank! As you say, it's not what people profess to believe that matters, but how they behave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Wesley S Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:32 PM And sometimes what they say and what they do - have nothing in common. We've all been guilty of that - myself included. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,sinky Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM God is our conscience,thats all.Just be a good person and heaven will be yours on earth,simple as that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM I went through a period sometime recently where I was a little too beligerent when it came to the discussion of religion. I have met some fine people who I admire that have their religious beliefs inform their behavior in positive ways. If I have offended any of these people, I apologize profusely. Why Frank, I am not sure what to say.... I certainly appreciate that you said this, and publicly too (which is why I am responding to it publicly). I was offended, and I really wondered what bug you had up your butt about it, because until the surprising posts you reference above, I had always had so much respect for you that I can't even say.... and your post now, above, fulfills what I might have expected from you, and your change of view is deeply welcome. And of course, though we have never met, I accept your apology; I look forward to making your acquaintance some day through music. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Doug Chadwick Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM Two men are standing in a field. One believes he is in the middle of a deluge. The other believes he is in the middle of a drought. No matter how strong their beliefs, it won't affect the weather. Both men will end up just as wet. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Ed Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM Anyone able to answer my question yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Peace Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:24 PM It's gone waaaaay past whatever your question was, Ed. It's moved on to important stuff now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:51 PM Ed: What was your question? "Can anyone offer proof that God exists" ? or something on that line. If so, forget it. Your premises are self contradictory in their nature. If that doesn't make sense to you, you aren't actually equipped to ask the question in a meaningful way. I do not say this because I am a theist -- I am not. But I say it because I respect the individual and his discoveries beond the realm of the already-known, whatever universe they may be seeking in. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM The master guards the sheepfold bin And he wants to know, "Is my sheep brung in?" And he's callin, callin, Callin' softly---softly callin' For them all to be gatherin' in. To me, this isn't a religious song at all. It IS simply just about inclusion. Like: "We're in the same boat, brother." The admirable philosophy of the shepherd is not to discriminate just because some might delete the black sheep from the group for whatever reason. Believe me folks, this song illustrates aspects of my own life graphically. I have a very hard time with people who ostracize and exclude others when, with a little good will and effort, they might reap the good from knowing those they excommunicate so glibly. That is a large reason I enjoy Mudcat. We are here in spite of our differences. My big fault is that, when I feel hurt by a post, I shoot from the lip way too quickly. I'm with Frank. And I am sorry, Susan and others, if I have been unfeelingly judgmental here. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM Peace, that was a great line! Art, ...I am sorry, Susan and others, if I have been unfeelingly judgmental here.... I think what is so hurtful is that a thoughtless comment can so quickly makes me want not to know the person who made the remark, any further, because it says so strongly that this thoughtless person cannot possibly know me at all, and therefore never will be able to know me. Even in the midst of what I might have thought was a nice start on a friendship, to have said what they've said... the reaction is, "Oh. I get it-- they never saw me." There are some ways in which the thoughtless comment can just entirely stall any desire for further discourse. Not because I fear I'll get hurt again, but because that depth of cluelessness, defended, seems to make it clear how and where I can better prioritize my time, my thoughts, my explorations, my discoveries... my SELF. It puts that other person, for me, squarely into the camp of those who may need my help at some point-- and I do not mean merely spiritual help-- and who are not going to be candidates for a 2-way friendship on an equal footing-- that person can only be, if I allow it that is, my client. Because if their thinking is so eaten up by their past hurts that they do not see.... me.... at all, they will probably never catch up to be in sync with me, in the future. (I prefer not to conduct friendships on the basis of whose needs are screaming loudest most of the time.) They will always be, for me, that person whose hurts wre bigger than their ability to see the present and be with me in that present. So... apology accepted, with gratitude. I guess maybe an apology is a sign that it may be worth keeping an eye out to see if the apologizer's future actions match the maturity of the apology. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM Doug Chadwick, your post misses the point. Belief affects the believer and those whom the believer's behaviour (which is a result OF his beliefs) directly impacts. Your two men standing in the rainy field are both affected by their beliefs, in that they perceive the same situation differently ("It's raining." "No, it isn't." "I'm dry!" "No, you're not, you're all wet!"), they are prepared to argue about it, and they may even come to blows over the matter! ;-) One of them might suffer a fatal injury, due to their disagreement. Or perhaps he might sue the other for damages. Therefore, their beliefs DO have an effect...not on the rain (or the lack of it), most likely not on the field either, but upon themselves and each other and their families, and possibly their descendants as well. And that is the power of belief. Even a completely unrealistic and ill-founded belief has power to sway the minds of men, and can move them to action...with very discernable effects on the world. Hitler believed that Germans were the "master race". It was a belief in a complete fiction...but just look at the effect it had on the world. A large number of Americans believed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs in 2003 AND was responsible for 911. That had an effect on the world too. Believing in unreal things can have enormous effects, first on people and THEN on the world, as I think you know... ;-) That's precisely why some people object to organized religion. It's also why people object to stupid political agendas, false advertising, and a host of other things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:34 PM L.H.---That's beautiful. ---------- Right now it is dawning on me that it's the effects/fallout from the "beliefs" of others that have impacted negatively on my life, and on some of those lives close to me. I seem to be transferring my downer baggage to so many with faith here in these kinds of threads. At least I am seeing, now, some of what I've been doing. To say the least, that was totally unfair. I truly am sorry you people have had to put up with that. Onward, Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:43 PM For those of us who see religion as the root of all evil, maybe the bigges problem is the constant chorus of belieivers who keep telling us to be tolerant of their religion. We, of course, think they are destroying humanity and the entire planet we live on in the process. It's a lot like asking Al Sharpton to be tolerant of racism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:38 PM Spend a day actually working alongside those of us in the ministry and be sure to tell us how many people we screw up. Here area few snapshots for you to enjoy trying to poke holes in: The young hockey team whose bus rolled down an embankment last week, for ewxample, to whom we're taking a bag of totally silly Christmas goodies guaranteed to make their next (scary) bus ride more fun and perhaps just a little stress-relieving. The people who will be fed without question or religious comment from the generosity of our parish, their baskets delivered by hubby and I so no one else needs to see who is on the receiving end this year. The unwed mother whose Christmas "bonus" will be fat this year because she's moving downstate to be closer to the child's dad, where she will complete her degree and continue to work fulltime-- who happens to be our waitress about once a week. The cancer patients we spend time with. The older couple down the road whose adult kids emailed me again today with fresh concerns because they know the dear old folks actually confide in us as friends, about their worries, so they ask us what we think about it all because we give it to them straight. The family for whom my husband left a small Mudcat Gathering at our home last time, to offer comfort to the parents whose son had leapt from their moving SUV at 70MPH, over a guardrail, to land on the rocks about 5 stories below-- people we'd never met, never asked if they go to church, never will see again. The lady in my aquatics class today who needed to talk about the extraordinary blessing she feels it is to volunteer in hospice care, whose family lives far away and who is a vigorous 80-year-old asskicker from Memphis, but lonely with no family here. Yeah-- lives ruined, forever, because of our ministries. ;~) (How are YOUR contributions to world peace going?) Eat that. Later this week I'll leave the house at 5AM to drive downstate (at my own expense) and back in one day with 7 hours driving and 2 hours of meeting time, to interview some MORE people who would like to go into the ministry. I'll tell them you're out there, along with a whole lot of people just like you. I'll ask them what they think about sad individulas like yourself who only know negativity. Merry Christmas! :~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:40 PM I beg my friends' pardon-- that last post is addressed to Riginslinger, and only Riginslinger. ~S~ |
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Subject: Lyr Add: IMAGINE (John Lennon) From: number 6 Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:48 PM For years I always thought the following was a silly, dreamer's song. Lately I'm beginning to understand exactly what John was feeling when he wrote it ... I guess I've just become a silly dreamer in my old age. Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:12 PM Yes, he covered a lot of ground there...religious divisions, political and national divisions, and divisions inspired by greed and materialism of every kind. You see, religion in itself is not the problem. National identity in itself is not the problem. Material goods and private ownership in themselves are not the problem. People's negative or excessive use OF religion and nationalism is the problem. Greed for more material things than one needs, and the willingness to do harm to others to get those goods, is the problem. It always comes down to people's behaviour...good or bad. That is the determinant. And their behaviour is inspired by their beliefs, of course...but the same set of professed beliefs can often inspire excellent behaviour in one person and awful behaviour in the next...so it is the interpretation and use of beliefs that is vital. Do they have a mature understanding of their belief..or a caveman's understanding of it, that's the question? If it's the latter, then they can be quite dangerous under certain circumstances...as with the raging crowds that gathered in the Sudan, calling for that English teacher's blood over the naming of a teddy bear! The more mature Muslims who were actually in some of the positions of authority there had the sense to realize that she had intended no real offence, and they simply pardoned her and sent her back to England. In the hands of the street mob, she would have been killed. There's the difference. John Lennon's song serves as an interesting parable...saying, "What if we could rise above all these things and treat each other as equals?" It proposes something so far from ordinary human consciousness that it can't be seen as literally possible, but rather as a symbolic lesson, a signpost which might make people think and question their customary divisions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: number 6 Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM Yes LH ... he did cover a lot of ground in that song ... and just a simple little song it is. It's not what is right, or what is wrong .... just imagine ... just imagine .... and then maybe, just maybe "we could rise above all these things and treat each other as equals?" biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:29 PM LH & #6 - It's a wonderful song. It really shouldn't offend anyone, but it does, sadly. Susan - My new book came out a week or so back. The title is "Invasion of the Bible Thumpers." It can be located on Amazon.con, Barnes & Noble.com, and a number of other places. I firmly believe you feel you are doing the right thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Slag Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:58 PM Truly an amazing discussion! No one has defined their terms. Yet everyone continues to attack or defend just as though the other(s) understands what he means by the term "God" "faith" "reason" etc. It's like a storm-trooper wild monkey knife fight. Hint faith in "reason" is still "faith". Reason's ultimate appeal is to reason, a tautology if ever there was one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Keinstein Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:18 AM Shurrup Slag, what do you knoww about it, who asked you? God is the Absolute, the Infinite, the Ultimate Cause, and it follows as night follows pigeon, that if you fail to believe in the absolute truth of chapter 3, verses 1 to 7 of the Book of Mercy things will go hard for you on the Day of Judgement. Reason is not a tautology; it's simply the basis for any discussion that is not absolutely solipsistic. Otherwise you may as well take the Postmodern position that all descriptions are equally valid. Faith is usefully defined as belief in a proposition that can not be proved. It's absolutely necessary to continue living. On the other hand, faith that is not a temporary position (until better proof is available) is dogma, and faith that goes in the face of evidence is destructive. I think it follows that faith should be confined to the bare essentials; belief in the approximate validity of the relative strengths of the gravitational and electromagnetic forces as now understood allows me to walk along the ground without fearing suddenly falling through it to the centre of the Earth. There are no apparent consequences accruing from lack of belief another's subjective understanding of the ultimate nature of the universe that would affect the life of an individual- though there may well be consequences from showing that you don't believe them. I wouldn't want to enter a building designed by an engineer who didn't believe in physics. I wouldn't trust to a microbiologist who didn't appreciate evolution. An astronomer who believes that the heavenly bodies are pushed around by angels, or that the distant galaxies were formed in 4004BC would be less than useful. A psychiatrist who belives in demons should not be in charge of a mental hospital. Non- overlapping magisteria... if you don't claim that religion (or other speculation) has effects in the physical universe, it doesn't overlap with science. That of course is not the same as saying it has any actual field of application- particularly the moral. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: john f weldon Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM Rather comical, actually. Some unknown guy posts a challenge; the first responses are... "Who the heck are you to bait us??? Piss off!" ...and then gets hundreds of responses in a few days. Sounds like "guest ED" was feeling bored and decided poking a stick into a wasp's nest would be fun. Oh, yeah the question. Is there a tea-tray in orbit around Jupiter? Very unlikely. Are those who Believe there's tea-tray in orbit around Jupiter (and insist that others "respect" their insight) a major pain in the butt? Most definitely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Bee Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:29 AM It interests me that I see so many complaining that Dawkins is embarassingly agressive or loud or confrontational. Considering the vast numbers of noisy and belligerent preachers, imams, and so on, that populate the planet and shout out their condemnations, isn't it sensible that at least a few atheists make at least a little counter-noise? To Susan: There's no question that there are many preachers and ministers and priests who work hard and are genuinely compassionate towards people, as I am sure you and your husband are. You may feel, when hearing from atheists and agnostics, that you personally are the babies being tossed with the bathwater. Perhaps you are, but that bathwater is very, very dirty, toxic, and needs to go. You babies need to have your parents (denominational leaders) clean that water up. Especially in the US, of all developed nations, the stagnant bathwater of religion is visibly hindering more good than it is promoting. Research becomes controversial and funding for it endangered if it is seen to conflict with religious views based on the cultures of people centuries ago. Your countrymen won't elect a politician who doesn't subscribe to (or at least lies about) some form of God belief, thus eliminating many able persons. Religion informs continued legal and social discrimination against homosexuals. Religious leaders make wild or simply wrong pronouncements which are believed by thousands, if not millions, of your compatriots. Many individuals have had disastrous experiences as a result of their beliefs and the support of the church they belong to, ranging from refusing medical treatment to sexual abuse and harmful 'exorcisms'. It's easy enough to distance yourself from these effects of religion, and say "We're not like that". Nevertheless, at centre, you are part of an enormous collective of God believers. Atheists make up a tiny percentage of the population of the US, and yet the religious often respond to atheists who speak out with anger and condemnation, and even some atheists feel threatened by noisy atheists. I think it is entirely possible for non believers and believers to learn from each other; for the religious to see the non religious as offering checks and balances against the unreasoning excesses religion is capable of promoting. If we say the Emperor has no clothes, then perhaps you should check your garments, instead of immediately insisting that you are, in fact, clothed in raiment of silk and gold. From the religious, atheists can perhaps learn a thing or two about community, although I'd bet most of us are thoroughly involved with our communities already. (In my rural community, several of us unbelievers readily assist in church inspired events which we see as contributing to the good of the community: I've baked many a cookie, repaired stained glass for small recompense, and trotted out plates at suppers.) We can get along, but people need to think more and be defensive less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:28 AM A coupla more folks in dire need of forgiveness have generated these stories. The good they have done someone vanishes behind the betrayal represented, fairly or not. Legal battle finally ends for victim of priest abuse Two decades after the woman first told of seven clerics having sex with her, and of one fathering her child, she receives $500,000 from the L.A. Archdiocese. 37-Month Sentence for Priest Who Defrauded Parish By ALISON LEIGH COWAN Published: December 5, 2007 NEW HAVEN, Dec. 4 — Telling him, "Not even the collar can protect you from prison," Judge Janet Bond Arterton ordered a 37-month sentence Tuesday for the Rev. Michael Jude Fay, the Roman Catholic priest who admitted pilfering $1.3 million from the church he had led in Darien. Rejecting calls from Father Fay's supporters for an alternative sentence, Judge Arterton told a crowded courtroom in Federal District Court here, "A sentence of probation would be impunity for a crime of enormity." She said the priest's crime was "enormous" in terms of the amount taken and its impact on parishioners and the public trust. By Susannah Rosenblatt, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer December 5, 2007 Rita Milla's story rocked the Archdiocese of Los Angeles when she first told it 23 years ago. Seven Roman Catholic priests, she said, had sexually abused her when she was a teenager, with one eventually fathering her child. The devout young woman who had once hoped to become a nun instead gave birth in secret in the Philippines. On Tuesday, her decades-long legal battle came to an emotional end. Looking somber and relieved, Milla received $500,000 from the archdiocese, part of a $660-million settlement between the church and hundreds of people alleging abuse by priests. Good acts are good no matter what flag they may fly. So are harmful acts harmful, regardless of their club or colors. A |
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Subject: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED From: Donuel Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:44 AM |
