BS: PC Brigade at it again.

Subject: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:20 AM

Just heard that the Bridgend council has banned the Salvation Army from singing carols in the town so as not to upset the imigrant population. Is this taking Political Correctness too far.
   
                        CHEERS MICK.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Newport Boy
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:35 AM

Sorry - hit the wrong button!

This sounds very unlikely - Bridgend Council website is advertising quite a few public carol singing events, and I hardly think they'd pick out the Sally Army.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:45 AM

Can you post the source of this story, please?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 07:46 AM

It is on the Practical Caravan chit chat forum posted by Colin from Bridgend. As far as I can see it is true. Just tried to do a blue clicky but did not work.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:07 AM

find 'Colin' here

I see that the forum is described for 'jokes, trivia, gossip' !!

Maybe 'Colin' could give the source to this bit of typical 'immigrant bashing'?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

and by the way - this 'charming little poem' and request is on the same page!

Immigrants Poem

I cross ocean, poor and broke.
Take bus, see employment folk.

Nice man treat me good in there.
Say I need to see welfare.

Welfare say, 'You come no more, we send cash right to your door.'

Welfare cheques - they make you wealthy! NHS - it keep you healthy!

By and by, I got plenty money.
Thanks to you, British dummy!

Write to friends in motherland.
Tell them 'come fast as you can.'

They come in turbans and Ford trucks.
I buy big house with welfare bucks!

They come here, we live together.
More welfare cheques, it gets better!

Fourteen families, they moving in,
but neighbour's patience wearing thin.

Finally, white guy moves away.
Now I buy his house,then I say,

'Find more aliens for house to rent.'
And in the yard I put a tent.

Everything is very good,
and soon we own the neighbourhood.

We have hobby, it's called breeding.Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist? Wife need pills? We get free! We got no bills!
Britain crazy! They pay all year, To keep welfare running here.
We think UK darn good place.
Too darn good for the white man race!
If they no like us, they can scram. Got lots of room in Pakistan!

PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY BRITISH TAXPAYER YOU KNOW

Please keep this sort of scum out of this forum, and don't believe everything you read.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:33 AM

There may be one or two things we haven't always agreed on, Emma, but you are spot on here.

Mick, you shouldn't realy post anything to cause incitement to racial hatred. You also shouldn't believe everyting you read in the Sun, on the internet or from 'a bloke called Colin'. This kind of rumour and scaremongering has been proven over and over again to be the work of over-imaganative journalists, the far right and gullible people. Nothing to do with the 'PC Brigade', whoever they are.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 08:38 AM

Piles've 'PC's' here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc [complete with source!]

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:16 AM

No mention of Practical Caravan.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:23 AM

LOL! Snail

Actually a couple of years ago 'overzealous council officers' in the London borough of Southwark did attempt to ban the Salvation Army from singing carols as they thought they might be prosecuted under the Licensing Act!!

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:37 AM

So the thread title unabbreviated should read:

'Practical Caravan Brigade at it again.'!!

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:19 PM

When I was working in HMP Featherstone last week I was told by one inmate that they are not allowed Christmas decorations this year in case it offends those from other faiths. I was appalled. He was convinced the ban was true, and if so, the prison officers concerned ought to have a crash course in how to ensure a bit of harmony amongst the already volatile prisoners in their care. While we were discussing this, we noticed the new "decorations" going up outside, consisting of more razor wire around the buildings.

Ho, hum.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:42 PM

Like most racist "round spherical objects" it is just that.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

These so called Political Correctness adicts are just wankers - followers of the winky - wanky bird! Do a Google search.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

Anne, I just had a phone call from an old colleague and friend who currently works for the Home Office and has contacts with prisons in the Midlands area.

While she was on the phone I asked her if she knew anything of the situation you were told. She thinks it extremely unlikely that decorations would be restricted for any reason other than basic health and safety, security or (as in some hosiptal wards this year) to prevent spread of infection.


btw I understand HMP Featherstone is where Kevin Hughes* is currently serving a 30 month sentance for an unprovoked assault on an Iraqui asylum seeker - a 'volatile' prisoner indeed!

*Hughes, former BNP Worcestershire Organiser and election agent for BNP councillor David Enderby, who was voted the BNP's 'Activist of the Year' at their annual Red White and Blue festival, was convicted back in June for attacking an Iraqi in a pub after asking him where he came from. The original sentence was for thirty months and provoked outrage from the BNP who chose to ignore the fact that Hughes was the instigator of the attack, choosing instead to criticise his victim for 'having the means and time to drink in the public houses of Worcester'.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM

I truly hope that a legislative assembly in either Alberta or Canada tries to pass a law like that and that the law does pass. I would love to be arrested for breaking a law that said 'not to hang Christmas/Chanukah decorations because they might offend someone'. Me arse has two cheeks, and the people enforcing a law like that could kiss 'em both before taking me to jail.

Because stupid laws ARE passed from time to time is every indication that as people we ought to be fighting against the stupidities by being peacefully disobedient. If indeed a town council did pass such a law, I trust there are some folks with the spine to tell that council (or legislative body) that it should get shagged at its earliest convenience. However, I doubt any council is really idiotic enough to do such a thing.

As an add on, if my Muslim friends were told not to observe Ramadan I would become Muslim for a month, and if my Jewish friends were told not to wear a yarmulke I would cover my head every single time I went out in public. Stupid laws are meant to force decisions that cause good laws to be made.

I hope the intent of this thread was not to cause racial strife or tension. If it wasn't, perhaps a statement from the thread starter would put that thought to rest. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:14 PM

No because the Starvation Army does not respect the views of other religions.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 04:35 PM

Emma, I can only go by what was said - the inmate concerned wasn't called Kevin! My reference to volatility was to the fact that last year there were several problems at this prison over the Christmas period and of more recent months there have been more problems, none of them (as far as I know)to do with racism. However, the man who was upset was very clear that he'd been told it was to avoid upsetting other faiths. He was also specific about which one - I'm not dwelling on that facet because it's hardly relevant. It might have been an officer choosing to stir the pot a bit, but the inmate who was upset was working himself up about it all because he felt he should have the right to have a Christmas tree in his cell if he wanted one. These comments came in a group which included a good variety of ethnicities and (I assume) religious beliefs, and everyone present was supportive of his feelings. Any religious or secular holiday with a family connection must be truly miserable in prison for those prisoners with families and I suspect the very smallest excuse would be enough to be very provocative.

I've learnt enough about prisons over the last 12 months to know that there are, unfortunately, some officers who do take a delight in causing ructions (to put things at their mildest) - I don't for a moment think this would be a Home Office directive, but far more likely to be a localised problem on a wing of the prison. It's unfortunate that there are pockets of misinformation and ignorance in our society.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

Emma, I can only go by what was said

Exactly. BY WHAT WAS SAID. It is heresay. Worth nothing at all. Please give us facts. Not nonsense. If you want to keep this racist rubbish alive you are falling right into the hands of those that start it. Don't do it. Don't perpetuate these myths. Facts, facts, facts. Give us us sources that can be verified. Or shut up.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM

Hearsay? Or Heresy?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

I'm sorry - must be missing something here. What's racist about what I was reporting? I'm going by what an inmate in a prison told me and others about what had been said to him directly. Not hearsay. Nor heresy, although what that has to do with anything beats me completely. What had been said to him wasn't racist. It was plain stupid, but not racist. He didn't think it was a myth. He was upset about it, because it was affecting him. He wasn't being even slightly racist about it, either. He was, quite simply, upset.
If you can't be bothered to read my original post and subsequent comments on Emma's report, please at least try to think of a more appropriate term to beat us all around the head with. We might possibly be talking religious intolerance, but there's no sense in which it had to do with race. I think it comes down to an officer (or possibly more than one) deciding to wind up the inmates in his, her or their charge, clearly very effectively, at a time of the year when feelings run higher than usual.
And before you tell me I'm mistaken, perhaps you'd like to visit the prison in question and speak with the men I spent two days working with about this and about the general unhappiness in their prison. The group of men I was working with (as I did say before) included black, Asian and white prisoners. They were united in their views on this.

Oh, and I wasn't there to find out their problems - I was running a workshop on telling stories to children. This piece of information came out of a spontaneous outburst straight after lunch from the man in question. I couldn't believe my ears but he was adamant about what he'd been told by the officer. "Sources that can be verified" isn't something that applies here - even if I told you the prisoner name and number and he gave you the name and details of the officer concerned how would that help? I don't myself think for a moment the officer would admit to an outsider that he'd (iirc it was a male officer) said something so crassly stupid. I do think it was said to wind up the prisoners, without any Home Office or other guidance whatsoever.

Wouldn't it be nice if all uncomfortable bits of news were just myths?

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

Anne, an amazing ammount of 'found and confiscated items' have been discovered at HMP Featherstone recently (you can find details easily on the Home Office Web site - but it won't allow a link)

It is quite likely that decorations, such as you describe, constitute a substantial security risk. I'm sure some inmates or even staff may have personal motives for claiming that there may be other reasons.

Personally I'm a bit fed up with all the unsubstantiated or deliberately misinterpretated 'stories' of so called 'PC outrages' which are nothing more than blatent anti-islamic rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 06:50 PM

Never pass on that sort of rumour without making some effort to check whether it's true. Almost always it turns out they've been misinterpreted, twisted, or just plain manufactured.

Anyone banning Christmas decorations, and saying they are doing it so as not to upset immigrants, has to be open to the suspicion that they actually doing it as a way of stirring up antagonism against immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Skivee
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 11:26 PM

Tabster, a question. Did you ask anyone in the prison administration if what the inmate told you was actually a policy of the prison?
If it isn't then the "policy" isn't policy.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 11:44 PM

"'PC outrages' which are nothing more than blatent anti-islamic rhetoric."

                  So, what's wrong with that. Maybe the only way to finally get rational in the world is to attack these superstitious beliefs one religion at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:49 AM

My point was not whether or not this was official policy - I'd be amazed if it was and I've now said several times that I'm sure it wasn't anything official or in written form - but that someone was stirring up trouble, by choosing a very emotional time of the year and a very emotional issue, and saying something stupid about it. I didn't have the time, the remit or the clout to go searching out the officer concerned, but I have no doubt that something WAS said to this particular prisoner on this particular wing, because otherwise why on earth would he have been so upset and come to the session with that on the top of his mind?
Yes, Emma, it might well be a security issue, but in that case the officer concerned should have said that rather than leaving the prisoner with the clear impression that it was to do with not offending other prisoners (no mention was made of "immigrants", McGrath, the term was "other faiths" - there are quite a few faiths which don't celebrate Christmas, not all of them imported).
I'll close my share of this "discussion" by saying that it's very easy for those of you sitting at home to make the assumption that the prisoner must have been wrong, that I must have been mistaken, that this could never have happened - having met the man concerned and been in the prison concerned I remain convinced that an officer said something stupid to him, which had the effect of adding to why he was (a) critical of that particular prison and (b) jangled and unhappy about Christmas in prison.   Just because you don't think it should have happened (and I'm with you on that) doesn't mean it didn't. As to passing on a "rumour" - this wasn't a rumour. It was said to me by the person who had been told he couldn't have decorations in his cell.   Oh, and "anti-islamic"? Let's say it once again - in this case the phrase was "other faiths".

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:29 AM

"Just heard that the Bridgend council has banned the Salvation Army from singing carols in the town so as not to upset the imigrant population. Is this taking Political Correctness too far".
No; it is just a case of the old usual, ie: the state pandering to religion - doesn't matter what religion.
Superstition rules - OK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:34 AM

This is an extract from only the second hit on google enquiring about the ratio of 'faiths' at HMP Featherstone. I don't want to link to the rest of the sickening rascism and hatred of Islam on that page but to demonstrate the sort of background and attitudes that spawn the rash of recent 'PC gone mad' claims.


'Kevin (Hughes see my post 16 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM above) is naturally angry about what has been done to him, and worried about his pending appeal - even though VARIOUS SYMPATHETIC SCREWS have assured him that he'll walk free the moment it's heard. In the meantime, there's no doubt that he's in danger. Just the day before my visit he sensed an unusually hostile atmosphere during association time. He reported it to a guard, who made a couple of enquiries and immediately told Kev that he was escorting him to his cell for his own protection.

The problem is that HMP Featherstone is dominated by blacks and Muslims from the heavily enriched West Midlands. Most of the whites are drug addicts, sex offenders and other lowlife, without a shred of racial awareness or loyalty. It makes putting a known white nationalist in there a form of "cruel and unusual punishment", and definitely dangerous......

......all for asking an asylum seeker where he came from. Child molesters go free, while patriots go in fear of their lives in jail. That's Blair's Britain, in which David Cameron says we all have to hug and learn to love the feral lowlives known as hoodies.'

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:47 AM

Sorry, the actual breakdown of faiths at HMP Featherstone according to the official report for 2006 is

C of E 24.19%
R.C.   11.10%
Muslim 14.25%
no professed religion 42.9%

The remaining faiths (less than 7%) are not broken down but Buddhist and Sikh prayers are held.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 04:28 AM

Here are two examples of this sort of rubbish from the BBC.

Headline 1.

Sensible of insane? Red Cross Bans Christmas.   BBC 2 January, 2003,

Headline 2.

Red Cross Denies Banning Christmas. 21 December, 2002

Now you would think the BBC would check its own website to see it was printing round spherical objects. But as can be seen - these stories come round and round again.

Lazy journalists.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:02 AM

Just heard that Hot Cross Buns & Instant Pancake Mix have been withdrawn from national stores, for fear of causing offence to any migrants contemplating a move here.

A spokesperson said 쳌eWe wish to make early intervention to allay suspicions of underlying ethno phobia in our society쳌f

It was in 쳌ePractical Camelowners쳌f so it must be true!

After carrying out a Google search to verify this story, various hits were found including items in 쳌ePenal Camping쳌f, 쳌ePolice Chronicle쳌f, 쳌ePhilistine Culture쳌f and in many more sources.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:17 AM

For people who don't subscribe to 'Practical Camelowners' magazine may I draw your attention to this story reported here in August. :)

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:32 AM

Penal Camping

Are you sure that's not Penile Camping?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:43 AM

Why, do you need an extension? 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:01 AM

Just heard that Christmas Crackers are now off the menu as the term may offend Christians with Seasonal Affectiveness Disorder.

Non-Denominational Winter Holiday songs will be permitted if they do not contain references to any deities, saints, messiahs or other words or phrases with the potential to cause offence to people with fragile sensitivities.

The above news items were gleaned from features in 쳌ePleated Curtains쳌f, 쳌ePuerile Codswallop쳌f, 쳌ePious Cults쳌f & 쳌ePersuasive Chat쳌f

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:15 PM

Mr Happy, what's with the litle boxes?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 04:52 PM

Well what more can I say. Sorry too all if my post offended people but in this day and age the story I was given, in a way, did not surprise me. I know that some people think that I am racist but nothing could be further from the truth. BUT I do get annoyed at people who come too this country,a christian country that has always been a christian country, and try to impose thier beliefs and religion on us. When in ROME do as the romans do. I know it has been said before but if I being a Christian went to thier country and tried to practice my faith,open the odd church or two I would soon be in serious trouble. The UK and its people are! and have always been very tolerent to people of different cultures and faiths who choose to come and live in our country. We want these people to live in harmony with us but we are a Christian country and will always be. Cheers Mick. And SORRY again for any offence my post caused.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM

Always been a Christian country?

'In the 1st Century AD, Britain had its own set of religious icons: Pagan gods of the earth and Roman gods of the sky
Christianity was just one cult amongst many, but unlike the cults of Rome, Christianity demanded exclusive allegiance from its followers.

A single religion with a single God appealed to the Roman Emperor Constantine. He saw that Christianity could be harnessed to unite his Empire and achieve military success. From 313 AD onwards, Christian worship was tolerated within the Roman Empire.

During the 4th Century, British Christianity became more visible but it had not yet won over the hearts and minds of the population. Pagan beliefs still abounded and Christianity was a minority faith

The medieval period in Britain is really a story of how Christianity came to dominate the lives of the ordinary people, both at home and on the long and perilous journeys of pilgrimage.

But it would be wrong to think of medieval Christians as devout church-goers who flocked to church every Sunday. Professor Ronald Hutton of Bristol University suggests that on average people would go to church just a few times a year, when there was a real spectacle to take part'


from BBC Religion and Ethics page

A little basic knowledge of this country that is my homeland would tell you that the old festivals celebrated here before even the arrival of the Romans were just 'taken over' by the trendy new religious cult of christianity!

Best wishes for the Solstice, may you have light and warmth.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

I DO have to love the 'when in Rome' part...ROMANS weren't Christian until Constantine.....and then it was a battle on HIS part.

Emma even left out the Inquisition, forced 'conversions', and the imposition of Christianity on the populace by fear.

I can't be bothered to talk to ignorant people. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:19 PM

OK,Emma B so I was wrong again. Shall we say recently, in the last couple of thousand years give or take.

    NO SOLSTICE FOR ME. Been there done it, got the tee shirt, smoked the dope loads of times. TO MANY TIMESsssssssssssssss.

       Cheers Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:23 PM

Uh..you missed AGAIN, Mick...NOT a 'couple thousand' Sheesh. Bye for real now.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

It was something like 50 years ago when Margo Mayo, who was teaching at a private elementary school, told me that it was OK to sing Christmas songs in school, as long as Christ wasn't mentioned. She wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry.

Some dumb things never change.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

I'm not a practising Christian Mick but this ancient advice from Buddhism has a resonance...

...the Indian scholar Arcot Krishnaswami reports that twenty-three centuries ago, King Asoka, patron of Buddhism, recommended tolerance to his subjects, on the grounds that

'cling thus, we contribute to the progress of our creed by serving others. Acting otherwise, we harm our own faith, bringing discredit upon the others. He who exalts his own belief, discrediting all others, does so surely to obey his religion with the intention of making a display of it. But behaving thus, he gives it the hardest blows. And for this reason concord is good only in so far as all listen to each other's creeds, and love to listen to them. It is the desire of the king, dear to the gods, that all creeds be illumined and they profess pure doctrines.'

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 07:01 PM

Emma B. -

No, Britain hasn't "always" been Christian anymore than the Middle East (for example) has 'always' been Muslim. But in both cases, the relevant faith played a crucial role in the evolution of culture and institutions. Quite a bit has happened in the last 1500 or so years, don't you think?

As for the pagan stuff, it used to be fashionable to look for pagan survivals in British folk music, dance, etc., but most of these claims never really panned out.

(I remember once, as a child, watching the Boston Celtics playing basketball on television. I asked my uncle, "Who are the Celtics?" He answered, "The Celts are your ancestors." "These guys are my ancestors," I thought, with a sense of wonder and bewilderment.)

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 08:09 PM

Michael, please don't assume I'm referring to the disputed origins of Morris Dancing etc. or even to Victorian 'revivals' of Druidic ceremonies, I think I deserve a little more respect!

The origins of such festivals celebrating the seasons when humankind was in a greater sympathy with nature such as 'Eastre'. 'Yule' etc. are well established historically; the Christian cult was imposed upon them.

I agree a lot has happened in the last millennium, not all of it to the 'glory' of Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 08:12 PM

YES IT IS

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:03 AM

Emma B., I was raised by a Catholic (father) and a neo-pagan (mother), so please understand if I approach these discussions from a somewhat jaundiced point of view.

That being said . . .

I don't know many Christians who do not recognize and feel some sense of responsibility for the misdeeds of their co-religionists, both current and historical. But after a while, it does get tiresome to hear the same old rants about evil, old Christianity suppressing the peaceful, tolerant, earth-based paganism of ye olde times. Like the Vikings, like the Vandals, like the Visigoths, and lots of other folks whose names often seem to begin with the letter 'V' . . . oh, but we're talking about Britain, right. But Britain really didn't exist 1500 years ago, did it? Nations are historical constructs, and by the time there was identifiably an England, a Scotland, an Ireland and a Wales, these lands were indeed Christian. And Christianity did become established in Europe (Britain included) more or less through peaceful conversion. A little 'more or less' peacefully than those (pagan) Angles and Saxons behaved when they showed up in the 5th century, at any rate . . . .

As for holidays . . .

" . . . the Christian cult was imposed upon them . . . "

If Christianity really was imposed on unwilling, happy-go-lucky pagans, it wouldn't have been necessary to co-opt the old festivals, now would it? What happened can be better described as a cultural synthesis between Christianity (an asian religion, by way of the Mediterranean) and pagan northern European folkways.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: gnomad
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:59 AM

Is the UK a Christian country? I would say not, these days, although our recorded history is one of at least nominal christianity.

A clear majority of the population believe that they are (71.7% in England, 71.9% in Wales, no figures seen for Scotland or N.Ireland, 2001 census) but I suspect that if asked to give an outline of their faith only a relatively small proportion could make much of a coherent stab at it, such as pointing to one of the various creeds.

The proportion prepared to govern their own behaviour by Christian principles is even lower.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:11 AM

What I actually said Michael was that Christianity was imposed upon the old festivals (perhaps superimposed would have been a better choice of verb), I have no illusions about 'happy go-lucky pagans' I think life for the majority of people was probably 'nasty, brutish and short' whatever system they lived under.

I am also well aware of the Judaic, messianic origins of Christianity.

Perhaps you could remind me where in my 'rant' I described Christianity as 'evil'; I think I merely commented that not all actions in it's name necessarily represented the 'peaceful conversion' you described.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Brigade at it again.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:16 AM

Has anyone given any thought to who this immigrabt population is btw? From what I have seen recently they seem likely to be Polish Catholics, Latvian Lutherans or Iraqis fleeing from Islamic oppresion. How on earth is Christmas going to offend any of them?

And that goes as much for the prison polulation, tabster. Your quote 'As to passing on a "rumour" - this wasn't a rumour. It was said to me by the person who had been told he couldn't have decorations in his cell.' How ridiculous! If it was said to you by a person who had been told etc then it is now third had - The very definition of a rumour! Why perpetuate it unless for some reason you want to stir up hatred against 'other faiths'?

Dave.