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Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat

Tucker 14 May 99 - 10:16 PM
Indy Lass 15 May 99 - 10:57 AM
Tucker 15 May 99 - 04:31 PM
John Hindsill 15 May 99 - 06:09 PM
katlaughing 15 May 99 - 07:00 PM
Richard Bridge 15 May 99 - 07:18 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 15 May 99 - 08:37 PM
Roger in Baltimore 15 May 99 - 11:11 PM
bbelle 15 May 99 - 11:46 PM
Indy Lass 16 May 99 - 12:35 AM
Alex 16 May 99 - 01:17 AM
Banjer 16 May 99 - 07:17 AM
Bob Schwarer 16 May 99 - 08:52 AM
Margo 16 May 99 - 10:14 AM
Jeri 16 May 99 - 10:24 AM
bbelle 16 May 99 - 12:06 PM
Banjer 16 May 99 - 01:09 PM
Robin McG 16 May 99 - 05:08 PM
Lonesome EJ 16 May 99 - 05:44 PM
Sam Hudson 16 May 99 - 05:53 PM
Kathleen Morgain 16 May 99 - 06:20 PM
Richard Bridge 16 May 99 - 06:41 PM
Allan S. 16 May 99 - 09:25 PM
Don Meixner 16 May 99 - 11:13 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 17 May 99 - 05:11 AM
dwditty 17 May 99 - 06:08 AM
puzzled 17 May 99 - 09:52 AM
annamill 17 May 99 - 10:53 AM
Jon W. 17 May 99 - 10:59 AM
katlaughing 17 May 99 - 11:32 AM
Cara 17 May 99 - 12:55 PM
Margo 17 May 99 - 01:01 PM
LEJ 17 May 99 - 01:32 PM
Bob Schwarer 17 May 99 - 02:16 PM
Bob Schwarer 17 May 99 - 02:16 PM
Llanfair 17 May 99 - 04:57 PM
Cara 17 May 99 - 05:07 PM
katlaughing 17 May 99 - 05:12 PM
Indy Lass 17 May 99 - 05:48 PM
Bob Landry 17 May 99 - 06:21 PM
Uilleand 17 May 99 - 06:27 PM
hank 18 May 99 - 10:42 AM
Bob Schwarer 18 May 99 - 10:55 AM
Margo 18 May 99 - 12:41 PM
Bob S. 18 May 99 - 01:26 PM
puzzled 18 May 99 - 01:49 PM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 02:04 PM
LEJ 18 May 99 - 02:06 PM
SeanM 18 May 99 - 02:10 PM
annamill 18 May 99 - 02:21 PM
John OSh 18 May 99 - 02:27 PM
puzzled 18 May 99 - 02:30 PM
puzzled 18 May 99 - 02:33 PM
Richard Bridge 18 May 99 - 02:40 PM
LEJ 18 May 99 - 02:45 PM
Uilleand 18 May 99 - 03:03 PM
annap 18 May 99 - 03:36 PM
Bob Schwarer 18 May 99 - 04:24 PM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 04:28 PM
Cara 18 May 99 - 04:41 PM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 04:47 PM
Llanfair 18 May 99 - 04:52 PM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 05:33 PM
Moonchild 18 May 99 - 05:59 PM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 06:11 PM
Uilleand 18 May 99 - 06:37 PM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 06:49 PM
puzzled 18 May 99 - 09:51 PM
Bud 18 May 99 - 11:29 PM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 11:40 PM
Lonesome EJ 19 May 99 - 12:46 AM
Alex 19 May 99 - 02:20 AM
katlaughing 19 May 99 - 02:31 AM
SeanM 19 May 99 - 03:29 AM
hank 19 May 99 - 09:15 AM
tomtom 19 May 99 - 11:37 AM
katlaughing 19 May 99 - 11:40 AM
Margo 19 May 99 - 01:12 PM
Fadac 19 May 99 - 02:09 PM
LEJ 19 May 99 - 03:11 PM
Uilleand 19 May 99 - 03:16 PM
Fadac 19 May 99 - 03:42 PM
Mudjack 19 May 99 - 03:43 PM
Moonchild 19 May 99 - 04:11 PM
Rick Fielding 19 May 99 - 05:28 PM
Alex 20 May 99 - 12:23 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 20 May 99 - 05:02 AM
Penny S. 20 May 99 - 05:25 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 20 May 99 - 06:43 AM
Banjer 20 May 99 - 07:04 AM
Rick Fielding 20 May 99 - 07:38 AM
hank 20 May 99 - 08:55 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 20 May 99 - 09:42 AM
Fadac 20 May 99 - 10:10 AM
Penny S. 20 May 99 - 10:32 AM
Cara 20 May 99 - 10:35 AM
Cara 20 May 99 - 10:44 AM
Fadac 20 May 99 - 11:06 AM
Bulldog 20 May 99 - 11:53 AM
katlaughing 20 May 99 - 12:07 PM
Alice 20 May 99 - 12:22 PM
Steve Latimer 20 May 99 - 12:39 PM
Fadac 20 May 99 - 01:16 PM
Tucker 20 May 99 - 08:36 PM
Chet W. 20 May 99 - 08:57 PM
katlaughing 20 May 99 - 09:02 PM
Margo 20 May 99 - 09:37 PM
Slider 20 May 99 - 10:04 PM
Uilleand 21 May 99 - 10:13 AM
Rick Fielding 21 May 99 - 11:02 AM
tomtom 21 May 99 - 11:15 AM
Steve Latimer 21 May 99 - 12:51 PM
Fadac 21 May 99 - 01:47 PM
tomtom 21 May 99 - 02:26 PM
katlaughing 21 May 99 - 03:07 PM
LEJ 21 May 99 - 03:28 PM
tomtom 21 May 99 - 03:32 PM
Fadac 21 May 99 - 03:38 PM
tomtom 21 May 99 - 03:49 PM
Fadac 21 May 99 - 03:57 PM
Penny S. 21 May 99 - 04:26 PM
Penny S. 21 May 99 - 04:28 PM
Fadac 21 May 99 - 04:31 PM
katlaughing 21 May 99 - 04:46 PM
Penny S. 21 May 99 - 06:25 PM
Chet W. 21 May 99 - 06:34 PM
Fadac 21 May 99 - 06:45 PM
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Subject: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Tucker
Date: 14 May 99 - 10:16 PM

I went to a thread a few minutes ago to explain some things to folks about guns. To those that think I am a tool of the NRA, think again. I don't belong to that group, namely because that while I believe in their cause I don't like being hit up for money twice a week. I do believe the founding father's meant what they said in the second amendment, and I really don't think Liberals want to really persue that because if they do every male from 16 to 60 might have to possess and know how to fire modern firearms. Not a bad idea to me, except when they have had a great weekend watching Airforce One where people blow others brains out for entertainment! What crap! People, first and foremost, let me be up front with you. I am not about hunting, shooting, or quilting partys. I own guns because I and my family will never willingly be digging our own graves and having soldiers shooting us down. That is the biggest mistake I think the Jews did in Europe, and the ones I admire the most are the ones that had the guts to fight the Nazis in Warsaw and in the aftermath of Sobibor. My country told me to take up arms when I was 19. I will be damned if they tell me I am incompetent to have them now! This coupled with the worst president the United States has ever had. Enforce the existing laws against felons, if that doesn't work, let's talk


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Indy Lass
Date: 15 May 99 - 10:57 AM

As it was so tragically proven in Littleton, Co. and many other places in our country .. and the world throughout history...it dosen't take a soldier to shoot me or my loved ones down. All it takes is someone with a "shooting device" and the intent to use it.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Tucker
Date: 15 May 99 - 04:31 PM

annieglenn, you can be killed very easily, be it gunpowder, fertilizer, gasoline, club,knife, poison,gas, bacteria. Go after the videos and MTV first, then come after me. I am your least threat. This is America. Let's enforce it's present laws, starting with keeping felons in jail and executing murderers. I wish you love and peace. Tucker


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: John Hindsill
Date: 15 May 99 - 06:09 PM

Tucker, the last I heard nobody ever killed somebody, or themselves, with a video, a movie, MTV, or a book. And, yes, current gun laws should be enforced...STRICTLY.--John


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 99 - 07:00 PM

So...we should censor MTV, videos, etc. instead of expecting parents to exercise their right to turn them off, not rent them, or tell their kids "No"!?

None of those other things is manufactured expressly for the purpose of killing; guns are. If they were made just for target shooting, we wouldn't need live ammo. There are plenty of other ways that police and others are beginning to use to stop someone without it being lethal.

A good can of spray paint aimed at the eyes can do wonders in disarming an assailant; and, if by some chance it gets used against you, it is not lethal.

kat


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 99 - 07:18 PM

You have missed the point of recent events. The fault lies in a society that rewards for belittling and alienating others. Soner or later the worm will turn. If you deny it the power to do so you are one of the opressors.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 15 May 99 - 08:37 PM

That's part of the point, Richard, but easy access to the guns is the other part. I think that statistics still show that people are at more risk of guns owned by family members than by criminals (except, of course, in gang ridden neighborhoods where the wars between mini-nations are as likely, or more so, to take the innocent as the warriors of the other side--sounds like what's going on in Yugoslavia [how many of you still think we are there for humanitarian reasons?}). My next door neighbor was burglarized--in addition to the TV, nine guns were taken. And Tucker--I agree with you that Clinton is an awful president, possibly the worst human being who has held that office (I opposed his impeachment strictly on constitutuonal grounds). But we have been damned with a string of presidents who think that the US has the right to do whatever it damned well pleases all over the world so long as it doesn't affect profits, and the congress goes along with it (the president asks for a six billion dollar raid on the social security "surplus" to buy more bombs to drop on Yugoslavia, congress doubles that amount and tacks on a bunch of pork barrel raids on the same source of funding, and on environmental protections; because the war funding measure is considered urgent, these awful other add ons may pass (how about a constitutional amendment prescribing that each bill that passes congress must be limited to a single subject, a single program? Or at least that all amendments to a bill must receive a majority vote of each house before they can be added. We'll see that one passed up as soon as we get real campaign finance reform). Gawd, I'm wandering off in all kinds of directions.

Back to guns for one thought: the "use a gun, go to prison" laws have one major effect--women who go to jail for killing their husbands serve far more time than husbands who kill their wives. --seed


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 15 May 99 - 11:11 PM

Bseed,

In your last comment, you highlight just one concern about gun laws (or any law for that matter). The end result is often quite different from what was planned. And, even worse, the person "punished" by the law is not the person we hoped the law would punish.

I'm with Tucker on this. I would encourage those of you who have taken the opposite side to read some of the "pro-gun" literature. The general media has decided to be anti-gun and that is the way it plays out events.

In a recent school shooting incident, the Vice-Principal went to his vehicle and got his shotgun. He was then able to disarm the attacker and prevent further bloodshed. The vast majority of the media never mentioned the gun the Vice Principal used. One paper even noted the Vice Principal "persuaded" the felon to drop his gun. Are we to believe he talked the guy out of it? No way, it was the shotgun that "persuaded" him. But the media would like you to think otherwise. Cases where people successfully defend themselves with a weapon are often not reported at all.

But the media doesn't want you to hear that side of gun ownership. Yes, you are most likely to be shot by someone you know. What the media doesn't print is that you are even more likely to have your life saved by you or someone you know having a gun.

Someone mentioned traceability. If it is so hard to trace gun sales, why do we now know that "all of the guns" were purchased at some point at a gun show? Sounds like pretty quick tracing to me.

If you don't want to have a gun, don't own one. I have never owned a gun, but I served three years in the U.S. Army and I am capable of using a gun. Gun ownership for myself continues to be a question that I have not finally answered. The right to gun ownership, I will defend.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: bbelle
Date: 15 May 99 - 11:46 PM

Well ... here's my two cents. I was raised with guns, hunting guns, not shotguns, and never thought much about it. However, I have been totally opposed to having guns in the house, for anyone. When I was attacked last December in front of my own house, I decided I was not going to be a victim again, without some weapon to protect myself, and decided to buy a shotgun and learn how to use it. I didn't buy that shotgun because I am totally positive that if anyone came into my home and suprised me, I would shoot to kill. In addition, since the attack, I have been almost paralyzed with fear several times when someone came up behind me, and I realized that if I had a gun in my possession, I would shoot them. I take careful measures not to put myself in situations where I can be attacked again and hope this never happens again. I do know, though, that if I killed someone, I could not live with myself. moonchild


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Indy Lass
Date: 16 May 99 - 12:35 AM

Tucker, sorry you thought I was "coming after you." Was just stating an opinion. I can see both sides of the gun control argument--perhaps we all can to some extent, and that's why American society is struggling so with what to do about it.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alex
Date: 16 May 99 - 01:17 AM

In the first place,Tucker, with those views, I really don't think you have very many friends at Mudcat. Secondly, is Mudcat the correct forum for this discussion. Is it possible to sectionalize Mudcat so that there is a Music-only area with another area for dingbats like Tucker and all the other spurious threads to reside. But since it is her, it certainly raises questions that are perplexing to everyone in the US today. So here's my two cents. Unfortuneately, there is no way to disarm America. Like Pandora's Box, guns have been available for so long that any attempts at gun control and laws against owning handguns or assault weapons simply result in law-abiding folks giving up their guns while criminals continue to hold theirs. The Colorado shootings were mainly done with shotguns. which will be the last type of guns to ever be banned. Tucker sounds like the kind of person who should not have firearms and is a likely candidate to shoot himself. At least in the foot. Probably twice before he realizes what the first problem was. The criticisms of Bill Clinton seems like snide secondary comments from a bunch of right wingers who ought to go away from Mudcat and join Rush in his paranoid world. How soon they forget Reagan's illegal Contra campaign and Bush's failure to solve the Iraq problem (at the cost of several hundred American lives). At least Clinton is standing up to his own philosophy (Why should I get killed in a foreign war) and is trying not to get our guys killed.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Banjer
Date: 16 May 99 - 07:17 AM

Alex, I don't know whence you came, but would hastily point out that Tucker is a widely accepted and valued member of the Mudcat, has many friends here and unlike yourself has not had to resort to namecalling (aka Defamation of Character or Slander) Although we are a very diverse group we are also very tightly knit and I believe a can speak for the great majority here and say that an attack on one of us will be construed as an attack on the entire group. Your opinion and the right to voice it is strongly supported here. Your penchant for calling names and demanding that your way of doing things as the only correct way is NOT. I don't often get my hackles up friend, but you are damn close to seeing it!

As for the subject of this thread, it fits very well into the context of the folk music that we all admire. It is a social issue having currency due to recent events in our country. Social issues have traditionaly been the fiber of folk music.

As for my own opinion, I feel anyone that wishes to arm themselves is entitled under the Constitution of this land. I do feel that a Certificate of Proficiency in the safe handling of weapons and a background check is within reason. Being Civil War reenactors we have several pieces here. Two muskets, three pistols, all black powder weapons but lethal none the less. (I also have a 3/4 scale reproduction of a 6 Pound James artillery piece, capable of firing, but it's such a job getting it loaded I don't consider it my weapon of choice ;) )As for using a weapon against another, I have no qualms about it if that individual poses a threat against my life or that of others.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 16 May 99 - 08:52 AM

Here's another pro-Tucker vote.

Bob Schwarer. NRA, target shooter, non-hunter, ex-GI(Infantry).


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 16 May 99 - 10:14 AM

I am with Tucker and Roger on this one.

I think that it is not the videos and bloody movies per se that are promoting violence and irreverence for life. It is an insipid permissiveness in the guise of civil rights.

I had stated in another thread that this is NOT A FREE COUNTRY. We have laws that one must abide, for the protection of all and simple decency. Those who chip away at the foundation of decency put forth in the Constitution are responsible for promoting violence.

Girls use abortion as a birth control. Kids growing up see that if you don't want someone around you just 86 them. (86; an old restaurant term meaning trash it.) You're bothered that there is a life growing in you: kill it. You're bothered that someone makes fun of you. Kill them. (For you girls who say it's your body and you want control over it, What happened to your control that you became pregnant when you didn't want to be? Do you mean only to exert control when it's convenient for you?)

You have the freedom of expression to piss in a jar and put the cross in it AND have the government pay for it, calling it art. Total irreverence. Should not be put up with for a second. That guy ought to piss in a jar at home all he wants and put whatever he wants in the jar. But by having the government pay for it (in the guise of diversity) you have an official stamp of approval of the disgusting, irreverent, bringing the whole country down to the level of the lowest common denominator.

When I was a kid, the class clown might put small pieces of chalk in between the felts on the eraser to give the teacher a hard time. Now sixth graders hold out ball point pens as the teacher walks by to mark up his/her clothes. (This told me by a teacher).

How come it is nowadays that someone can break into your home, get bit by your dog, and successfully sue YOU for damages? (This actually happened) Those who promote such permissiveness (criminal's rights in this example) are the ones responsible for chipping away at decency and promoting the "I can do whatever I want" mentality.

No, it's not the videos per se, it's a broad trend that can only be reversed if the people come to their senses and go back to basics.

Let's see who's feathers I've ruffled! :o)

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 16 May 99 - 10:24 AM

Well, I pretty much agree with Banjer re both guns and Tucker

I don't agree with a lot of what Tucker says. I don't believe I need a gun to fight off the invading horde. I think Clinton is one of the best presidents we've had, on a professional level. On a personal level, it's a good thing a lot of past presidents didn't have a Ken Starr and a talk-show-mentality press (and public). I, however, respect people's rights to have different opinions. I think respect is what holds this group together. The arguments in here seem to be about ideas, not individuals.

I think people should have the right to own guns, but I think competency and a background check are essential. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would argue against those things.

Jeri - 22 non-getting-shot-at years in the military/marksmanship expert/no gun


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: bbelle
Date: 16 May 99 - 12:06 PM

Alex .. I, too, do not know whence you came, but obviously you have not been involved in other Mudcat discussions. We are a group of individuals with widely diverse philosophies, none of whom asks anyone to drop what they are doing and run to their "side." We are also a group of individuals who respect one another and who do not refer to one another as a "dingbat." If you plan to stay awhile, please be respectful. Only by respect will you gain respect. I've said this far too many times ... what we sing and write is closely aligned with our political views, which is the essense of folk music. Tucker simply wants the right guaranteed to him in our Constitution, and I respect him for saying it aloud. I think "the right to bear arms" as it related to 1776 has a far different meaning than it does in 1999, and I would hope that he, and anyone else in this forum, would respect my right to say that aloud... moonchild


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Banjer
Date: 16 May 99 - 01:09 PM

Guys, I did a Forum Search on our buddy and it seems he has been here at least since 22 October 1996. That is the earliest post I found for him. He seems to like Scottish music primarily, does seem to have a sense of humor as evidenced by some of his posts, and is involved with a folk Music Club in Lake County, IL. Seems like a fairly friendly feller. I assume he probably looks upon us "newbies" as flies in his ointment. Sorry to offend you, Alex, but I for one am here to stay and have no intention of limiting myself to a set parameter of topics to please anyone! Last time I looked, it was still the Stars and Stripes flying outside and as long as "she" waves I still have certain freedoms which I intend to excercise! I will use discretion in selecting topics that are at least remotely related to what the Mudcat is all about, but will not lose any sleep if occasionaly they do stray outside the norm.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Robin McG
Date: 16 May 99 - 05:08 PM

I go along with Banjer on both posts. Long may she wave!


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 May 99 - 05:44 PM

I support Tucker in his right to state his views, even if we disagree. I want to hear what he is thinking- the success of our society relies on all of us encouraging each other to air their opinions in a free and open discussion. Those who would suppress this through namecalling, should keep their mouths shut and stay out of the process. Or express themselves in a reasonable and respectful manner.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Sam Hudson
Date: 16 May 99 - 05:53 PM

I have very mixed feelings on the issue of gun control. I was a member of a gun club here in the UK and enjoyed target shooting with pistol and rifle. Following the Dunblane tragedy, all that has gone, as private ownership of handguns is virtually impossible under new UK law. And the gun clubs have folded.

So I lose an enjoyable pastime. And yet, it's hard to get away from the statistics. The US has a per capita figure of gun-related deaths that's fifty or sixty times that of the UK. Switzerland, which is one of the most crime-free countries in Europe, has the highest level of gun ownership - and the highest level of firearms-related crime and gunshot deaths.

I suppose it all comes down to your own view on what's most important in your society. The older I get, the more I feel that the restriction on my liberty to own and use firearms is probably a reasonable price to pay for a safer society.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Kathleen Morgain
Date: 16 May 99 - 06:20 PM

Richard Bridge: thank you for so succinctly putting into words the nagging feelings that are troubling me over the issue of guns in the hands of the otherwise powerless.

"Us" versus "Them" is as old as humanity. Pogo was right, we are ALL "us". Now if I can just remember that, next time I'm impatient with a checker who can't add, copyreaders who can't spell, tailgating drivers, other people's children, people whose postings are clearly not as clever as mine.....

-gunless in Seattle, -Kathleen.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 99 - 06:41 PM

Is anyone else having trouble with the backspace key or the delete key deleting their whole message? Boy am I going to be careful how I type this since it's the third time!

There are a lot of trains of thought going on, and it's going to be hard to avoid rambling on too long.

I was tempted to condemn Alex's personal attack on Tucker - but then was tempted to hurl abuse at Margerita. The permissiveness she condemns is the mercy which would have saved the "Geeks" at Columbine from being tortured on a daily basis by the "Jocks". The equalizer was the only avenue of defence left. Where is the valid distinction between the right to bear arms to defend oneself from corrupt government and to do so to defend oneself from other injustice? Of course in England we have neither, but should we?

More curiously, why is it impermissible to defend one's own dignity yet permissible to slaughter animals in the name of "sport" - yet I am prepared to sing "the Innocent Hare". So why do I associate American contemporary acoustic music (sorry, I can't call it "folk") with the celebration of killing animals for "sport"? I hope this link to music saves me from the wrath of the "music only" brigade. Even so should we censor music - or when.

Oh, and for the "back to basics" brigade, remember "Ode to Billy Joe".


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Allan S.
Date: 16 May 99 - 09:25 PM

Wow!!! just got back to Mudcat after a few weeks And I thought all folkies were knee jerk liberals. It warms the cockles of my heart to read this thread An other vote for Tucker. I just completed a 11 year project in Jewish Geneology on my family. and all those who remained in Poland were sent to Belzeck. This was an Extermination camp. All those who arived one day were killed and went up in smoke the next day. Sorry guys I have no intention of having that happen to my grandchildren just so some people can be PC. I remember some one saying that if those in europe had a gun the Holocast never would have happened. Never again will we go easy.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Don Meixner
Date: 16 May 99 - 11:13 PM

Tucker, you can play in my gang any time. We agree on this and many other non music related subjects. Its ashame your taste in music is so dreadful :-)

Don


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:11 AM

Alex, and any others who might have been bothered by my characterization of Clinton as probably the worst human being who has ever been president: I am not a knee-jerk conservative (I love the Austin Lounge Lizards" line in "Half a Man" that goes "I listen to Rush Limbaugh and it helps to ease the pain; he makes perfect sense to a man with half a brain.")--matter of fact I just changed my registration from Democrat to Peace and Freedom; I'm way left of our rapidly rightward galloping center. As for Clinton, while Monica, whom he seemed to regard as an aid to masturbation, was fighting to keep from testifying against him, he was sending his minions out to destroy her character. NAFTA and GATT which he pushed through congress (no Republican president could have done it) have padded the pockets of CEOs and stockholders of multi-national corporations at the expense of the American economy (the stock market is not the American economy. And he has taken the US as world vigilante torch from Reagan and Bush, making sure to use the torch only to start fires in countries which do not matter much to us--if we're fighting against genocide, why are we not doing so in Turkey and Indonesia? (I guess I'm through voting for the lesser of two evils.) --seed


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: dwditty
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:08 AM

Tucker, et al. No, I don't blame the guns, although I do not choose to own one. The problem, as I see it, is that our society has been completely desensitized to indecency. There was a time when peole didn't go around shooting up schools, post offices, lottery headquarters, etc. simply because it was unacceptable to do so. I personnaly feel that MTV, movies, TV, the news media,...have pushed the envelope of decency way to far. Sure, everyone has the "right" to express themselves however thay feel. The spirit of those rights should be defended at all costs. I just think that everyone needs to take a little more responsibility for the effect that their form of expression has on society. Our children have grown up with a twisted sense of "right" and "wrong." The Mudcat is a place to start. Certainly Alex or whoever has the "right" to use the forum to belittle and pontificate. I am heartened to see that mudcatters are responding as a "society" to define the lines of acceptable behavior rather than trying to "legistlate" a rule to define certain behavior. You see, it is all up to us - each and every one - to exercise our right to set the limits of what we will accept. Let's face it, if no one buys what someone else is peddling, chances are it will stop.

DW


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 17 May 99 - 09:52 AM

I am a peace loving vegetarian who lives in a remote rural area. i grew up a country boy learning how to shoot a gun at an early age. As an adult i never owned one until recently. Here at my home a gun was pointed at me by a stranger i had never seen before. If i could have gotten to a phone it would have been at least a half of an hour before a cop could have gotten here. Fortunately, the gun holder was not totally crazy and left without harming anyone. But I will never be caught unprepared to protect my children again. i am a good shot and i will shoot to kill if the lives of my children are threatened again. It will indeed be hard to live with having killed or having tried to kill someone but to allow harm to come to my kids would be harder to live with. I still have bad dreams about what could have happened.
But even with such a event happening in my own yard, i still feel more threatened on the hiways than i do by some one owning a gun. how many times has some unthinking person in a hurry or in road rage come close to causing an accident to me or a member of my family? More times than i could count! How many people are killed in this country by guns every year? How many by vehicle accidents?
I will now own a gun to protect my family. And i will still drive a car and feel that driving is the greater risk.
and BTW most of the guns sales that i know about around here are person to person, not gun shops, not gun shows. No records, no background checks. Guns are easy to buy. Gun control laws won't change the fact that i can go to my neighbor's house and look over the hundred's of guns he has and choose my weapon of choice. I suspect that in the cities it must be somewhat like that, too. We are not in the UK It would be really hard to disarm Americans.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: annamill
Date: 17 May 99 - 10:53 AM

Hi,

I'm only here because my name is Anna, and my honey is Glenn. I don't want anyone to think annieglenn is me.

How I feel about guns.... to me it's very purplexing. For years I've heard a lot of arguments for and against the selling and owning of guns. I have friends who have guns for hunting (I don't know anyone who has a gun for any other reason) and I have friends who don't have guns and hate the thought of them. I don't have a gun now and never will, but I enjoy skeet and I enjoy hunting. So... I don't know.

Annap


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Jon W.
Date: 17 May 99 - 10:59 AM

My vote of support for the right to bear arms: I believe there are two prices for freedom here in the USA: One is blood, the down payment of which was made during the Revolutionary War and installments from time to time thereafter. Unfortunately many of these installment payments come at the price of innocent people. We should do everything in our power, SHORT OF CURTAILING THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, to eliminate those unnecessary blood payments.

The second price we pay for freedom is self-control. I love the lines of America The Beautiful: "America, America, God mend thine every flaw/Confirm thy soul in self-control/Thy liberty in law." Would to God that could be done in this generation. If we truly had the amount of self-control necessary to maintain freedom, we would not need to worry about government control.

To clarify where I'm coming from, I have done only a little shooting, almost all of it at Scout camps under the supervision of a competent (NRA-certified) firearms safety expert. The only gun I have in my home was received quite unexpectedly upon the death of my mother-in-law when we cleaned out her home (my wife being the heir). I've handled it rarely and never used it.

PS to Sam Hudson - I have never before heard that Switzerland had a problem with gun-related crime, although I know the Swiss are very well armed. If you can link me to a source confirming that statement, I would appreciate it.

Jon W.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 11:32 AM

I've been shot at and I've shot over the head of an ex who was beating my dog. I have only an old single shot .22 that was my dad's and that I have not shot in target practice in over 16 years. Sold the few guns we did have when we moved East. I have no desire to have guns in my house. Curiously enough, I felt safer in New England, where the laws are more strict about guns, than I do back here in Wyoming where a lot of people carry guns in their racks in their trucks. A lot of the people I know who do carry seem to be out to prove a point, have hair trigger tempers, and hunting season rarely goes by without one of them accidentally killing the other.

I am liberal, a pacifist, I like President Clinton and a lot of other people in our government, which after all is made up of American people, just like the rest of us.

I don't believe in censorship, killing animals, prejudice. I believe in trying to "walk in balance".

For more on where I am coming from and how I feel about the techno-perversions called guns, these days, please see this in another thread: click here

Thank you.

Katlaughing, trying to strike a balance in this thread,without offending


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 17 May 99 - 12:55 PM

I'd like to lend my name to the scolding of Alex, who was way out of line.

But I do agree with his stance (not about Tucker, but just about being crazily, rabidly anti-gun. This is my hot-button issue. The rights of a few to have their little toys does NOT supercede the rights of the rest of us to have a safe society. I cannot believe that this isn't evident to everyone in the U.S. The commmon denominator for most people who kill other people is...GUNS. People with guns kill people. It stands to reason that without guns, this wouldn't be such a problem. If everyone who felt so threatened by their fellow man went out and did something to improve society, to ease the problems that drive people to violence, instead of lurking around their houses stroking their muzzles and whatnot, perhaps they wouldn't "need" their guns so much. "If guns are outlawed. only outlaws will have guns"--I say that sounds excellent, then we will know who the hell those lunatics are and they can be stopped. It would make law enforcement a lot easier.

The steps taken in the U.K. in the aftermath of Dunblane seem eminently sensible to me. I am frustrated and unhappy that the U.S. hasn't followed suit.

I don't understand why people support the NRA, which has proven itself to be absolutely bonkers in my opinion. No child safety locks? No background checks? No waiting period? No law that prevents the purchase of more than one gun per month? The NRA's objection to any and all restriction is lunacy. They think anyone who can drag themselves to the counter or car trunk should be able to own a weapon of destruction. My blood pressure rises contemplating it.

The trend toward a libertarian, individual rights supreme over everything view scares me silly. People need to think big, on a community level. People who aren't part of the solution are a part of the problem.

Cara, who-learned-from-my-family-how-to-vehemently-disagree-with-someone-and-still-like-them


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 17 May 99 - 01:01 PM

I'm pleased to see such diverse points of view.

Richard Bridge: I don't understand what you mean by "The permissiveness she condemns is the mercy which would have saved the "Geeks" at Columbine from being tortured on a daily basis by the "Jocks". " Could you please explain that? It seems that you may misunderstand me because I am talking about a pervasive permissiveness that is already present in our society, so how is it that the permissiveness would have saved the "Geeks" from being tortured? I don't get it. Also, I don't understand your reference to "Ode to Billy Joe". I'm sorry about not catching on.

Dwditty: I think you hit the nail on the head; our youth have been "desensitized to indecency". I think it would serve us well to take a look at what causes such desensitizing.

I'm with you, puzzled. We are armed here, and have our weapons in lock boxes that cannot be opened unless you know the push-button combination. Our purpose is to defend our family.

By the way, Ben Franklin put it succinctly when he said that those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither! (Sorry about not having the quote on hand and having to paraphrase.)

Oh, and Richard, I am thrilled that you want to hurl abuse at me but didn't! I can't tell you how happy I am to have found a place where I feel safe about voicing my opinons.

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 17 May 99 - 01:32 PM

I believe that the main problem here is the black/white guns or no guns issue. At the extremes are people, like Tucker who apparently believes that there should be little or no government control over firearms, and Cara who seems to advocate the outlawing of all guns. For the rest of us, the decision is not that clear-cut. Granted, the ownership of a shotgun may give a homeowner a measure of security- but does he need a Tec 9 or an AK47? And if the ability to overthrow a repressive government is the issue, don't we all need rocket-launchers and grenades to stand a chance? When they come knocking on my door to take Grandpa away because he is a member of the John Birch Society, how can I be assured of having maximum firepower?

What I want is to keep my shotgun and bolt-action rifle, yet see reasonable curbs on assault weapons and handguns, with reasonable determination of age and background for weapons purchases.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 17 May 99 - 02:16 PM


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 17 May 99 - 02:16 PM


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Llanfair
Date: 17 May 99 - 04:57 PM

Since i first came across The Mudcat, I felt that I had met up with a collection of like-minded people, who may, in the long-term, become friends. I have followed this thread with an almost morbid interest,and have just worked out why. This thread has clearly put a boundary between myself and a number of other Mudcatters, purely because we live in different countries with different laws and customs. I wasborn and brought up in an environment where gun ownership is limited and owners are known to, and monitored by the police. My eldest son aquired an air rifle in his teens, and I was appalled. The culture of owning and using guns on a day-to-day basis, reminds me that I am alien to a lot of you out there. That makes me very sad. Can the music be powerful enough to make these differences unimportant? Hwyl, from Wales, Bron.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:07 PM

Well, I hate to think of myself as an extremist but in reading my post again I do sound a little...excitable. I stand by the vehement disagreement part though. I just have yet to hear of a justification for gun ownership that can compete with the right for us all to have a safe society.

There are enough guns in the U.S. for every adult and every other child. Is that not crazy? Is it so surprising then that our violent crime rate is among the highest in the world?

I live in a major city, and have lived by myself at various times. Friends of mine have been attacked in my neighborhood, and I have been robbed several times, as well as having had a serial voyeur plague me. For years I routinely got off work and came home well after midnight, in waitress gear, establishing those patterns all of us savvy street smart women are judiciously taught to avoid. I know about being afraid, so afraid that you worry you won't have breath to scream if you need to, and I wouldn't hesitate to kick and scratch and bite to defend myself or my family.

But I would never own a gun. Never, never ever. That is not what I want to bring as part of my contribution to the place I choose to live. THe possible good (of defending myself) is far outweighed by the possible bad (of accidentally shooting someone, of accidentally being shot, of having the weapon fall into the wrong hands). I wouldn't necessarily want to take single shot rifles out of the hands of responsible sportsmen, but I would not be sad to see that happen, if necessary, as one facet of public disarmament.

Cara, calmer but firm.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:12 PM

LLANFAIR and Cara,

I can understand your feelings. The world just isn't like it used to be, esp. when it comes to guns. Llanfair, your Wales sounds a much safer/saner place to be, cherish it.

Cara, as I said in my editorial in the other thread (there's a link in here, in a previous posting of mine), a good can of spray paint can really disable an assailant and it's not lethal.

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Indy Lass
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:48 PM

I like how Cara makes her point against gun ownership in a populace such as ours (US). And I can't help looking over our border with Canada with envy at how their society, which isn't all that different from ours (although some of my Canadian friends would disagree) has addressed their own situation of "the gun question." We lived in Ontario while attending graduate school. And I still love to go there to travel, enjoying Toronto's nightlife--some good music there if you've yet to visit!

And my user name, annieglenn, was the name of one of my great-grandmothers.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Landry
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:21 PM

I don't want to pontificate for or against guns. Let's just say that I don't and never will own a gun, but I do enjoy target practice. I look at it as playing golf or music, simply as a challenge to myself to do better. But the indiscriminate use of guns by the public is something I find very scary and I really want no part of.

For those Canadians who look to Canada as a safe haven, keep in mind we're not immune to the use of guns. Aside from the recent copycat high school shooting in Taber, remember the bicycle shooter in Halifax from the early 1960's, the McDonalds murders in Sydney, the kid here in St. Albert who killed his father, mother and step-sisters in the 1980's. That last one hit home as two of the little girls killed were schoolmates of my youngest son.

I do feel safer in areas where there are fewer guns as, apparently, did Mike Sadava, one of our local musicians, when he penned the following tune:

Bob

------------

NEVER BEEN TO TEXAS

(Music and Lyrics (c) 1997 by Mike Sadava, SOCAN/ASCAP)

Well Texas brought us western swing from Bob Wills and the boys
Hank and Lyle and Ernest Tubb made a joyful noise
From the Alamo to the Astrodome from Paris to Galveston
Texas has a lot to offer including lots of guns

No I've never been to Texas
No I've never owned a gun
No I've never been to Texas
Sure as shootin I'm never gonna come

They got shotguns, handguns, snub-nosed, magnums, guns for the little lady too
There's 50 million guns in Texas and one that's right for you
You can take one off to church with you; If you want you can take two
You can even wear one in your underwear and the cops there won't say boo.

No I've never ...

There's one thing I don't understand; I'll admit it bothers me some
Why people of such calibre need to own so many guns
They got shot guns handguns, snub nose, magnums, guns for the little lady too
There's 50 million guns in Texas and one that's aimed at you.

No I've never ...

No I've never ...


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:27 PM

Many Americans defend their right to bear arms as savagely as many Germans defend their right to drive as fast as they can. Being from both countries I should be entitled to do both any time I please. Come to think of it, why are there laws in the first place, besides make lawyers rich. Am I not responsible enough to lead my life as I see fit? I think as a responsible person I should be allowed to keep my own nuclear arsenal. After all I may need it to defend myself in case of the next world war. Can't trust the police to do their job, and forget about the military, they're too busy provoking another war. I had better stock up on some of those arms. And reflecting on Mister Franklin's quote, whose security and whose freedom are we talking about anyway? I think any law that cramps my style should be done away with in the name of freedom. So what, if a few kids get killed because I forgot to put my gun away. Just call them casualties in the war of personal freedom. Wait there is a word hovering around my consciousness, oh yes, - anarchy, that's what it was. Such a wonderful concept. Since we are all such enlightened infallible beings who would never harm anyone else, even in self-defense, or by accident, say by letting kids get access to guns, we don't need no stinkin' laws. Because, oh my God, I can't possibly be held responsible for that, just because I happen to own a gun. As a matter of fact I shouldn't be held responsible for anything. I didn't know what was going on in those concentration camps. I was just minding my business. --which right now is stirring the pot some more.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: hank
Date: 18 May 99 - 10:42 AM

Cara, I think you mispoke, you said "The commmon denominator for most people who kill other people is...GUNS." I think you ment The commmon denominator for most people who kill other people is...alchahol. Drunks kill people every day, many murders with a gun are done by drinkers, many drunks without a gun get in a car and kill people. (just because it is an accident doesn't make those people any less dead) drunks with knives have commited murder. Look at this, I would ahve to say that banning alcahol is the best way to prevent senseless killings.

It is time that we all recignise how many evils are done by people who drink, and stop the problem at the source.

What do you mean I'm sarcastic? it is true that alcahol is involved in a large number of deaths, it just happens that most of you drink it once in a while (responsibally) so you don't want your own ability to use something potentially deadly infringed upon, but your willing to infring upon others.

Really people, there are no simple solutions. Bombs can be easially made from simple household chemicals, including flour from your kitchen cupboard. The bad people out there will find a way to kill.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 18 May 99 - 10:55 AM


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:41 PM

Uilleand: Only the lawless need laws. But you better be damned sure what you're doing is right, if you're going to disregard laws! I think in a society we will always need laws.

Cara: On the news from Oregon, two women were fighting over a barstool in a bar. One slashed the other's face from her mouth to her ear with her broken glass from her drink. Ought we outlaw glasses?

No. What she did is called assault. It is against the law. She broke the law. No matter how many laws you have, the lawless will continue in their manner, wreaking havok on the law abiding and others.

Ban guns, and the lawless will continue in their manner, wreaking havok with black market guns on a defenseless unarmed law abiding populace.

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob S.
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:26 PM

After watching a show about digging{literally) into the past and finding that masacres & killings have been going on forever, I must make the conclude that there is a basic design flaw in us.

Time to start over. Are you listening?


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:49 PM

If no one had guns or if it were possible to collect all the guns owned in the USA It might feel safe for all of us in regard to guns. As already mentioned there are many other weapons just as dangerous. But the situation is that there are guns. A plenty. Even though i own a gun for protection i still don't feel comfortable that my neighbors and friends own assault weapons. Big nasty looking machine guns. One neighbor even has artlillery weapons. They don't hunt. They collect. And some of them are what are known as survivalists. And they already have the guns.
Registration, waiting periods, background checks are maybe good ideas. But they don't change the fact that guns are already there. In copious quantities. No one in this country is talking about confiscating the guns. Could it be done even if they were? Not very easily around here.
In this rural area people can and do wear guns in holsters visible to everyone still today. It is cowboy country and some of the western spirit (good and bad) still lives. It is not illegal because they are not concealed weapons. But in my whole life i have never heard of anyone shot around here accidentally or otherwise. (of course, i have heard about it in other places) We did have a youngster on the other side of the county that removed a few of his fingers building a pipe bomb. He was using the powder that his granddad used to blow up tree stumps.
If Cara is uncomfortable with owning and using a gun she shouldn't. The city folk that come out here to hunt and end up shooting someone's cow because they thought it was a deer shouldn't be owning or using a gun. I think moonchild made a good self appraisal and chose not to get a gun. But i won't be startled and accidentally fire at some one. I won't pull the gun unless i KNOW that i feel threatened. Or when my children are learning to use it correctly under my supervision.
No body knows i own this gun. It was bought from a friend. There are many guns like that. I would be willing to bet that outlaws that use guns perferr them unregistered though i don't know any outlaws. And people who get shoot in domestic violence could just as easily be poisoned or hit with a fireplace poker or . . .
Yes, guns are dangerous. Yes, it would be better if we didn't have them. But we do and more laws will not correct that. All this arguing about gun control, waiting periods etc. is only arguing. Guns killed my native american ancestors. Guns are killing in yugoslavia. Guns are glorified in movies. Guns are part of all of our lives in this century and into the next. I wish i didn't feel threatened and feel a need for a gun for protection. I wish this country's military wasn't killing in eastern europe. I wish children didn't kill other children. I wish (insert gun control, waiting periods, background checks, whatever)
my grandmother told me that if wishes were horses beggars would ride. You can't wish away a problem. And i really don't think you can legislate away guns in this country though it might be possible to legislate more reasonable manufacture of such weapons.

Note to LLANFAIR, when i am playing my piano and singing i would hope that any other musician would be willing and able to relate and communicate through the universal language of music. I would hope that my choice to have a gun at home would not prevent you from sharing the joy of music with me or anyone. We don't have to agree to harmonize. And harmonizing is much more fun than agruing.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:04 PM

Puzzled, I don't know what part of the West you live in, but here in Wyoming, the immediacy of domestic violence invariably escalates to thoughtless murder with a gun. Poison is not a choice in the throes of passion.

And, over the past two or three years, it wasn't the city slickers who've accidentally killed their friends while hunting...it's been a Wyoming father, brother, son, etc.

People do NOT live by the old "code of the West" like my dad and grandad did. They respected gun and the fact that they were designed to be lethal. They practised self-control of emotions, etc. and never used a gun in anger, spite, etc. If this were true of most today, it would be a different story.

No, I don't think we could ever disarm America, but we can put controls on what is manufactured and sold to the general public. What self-repecting hunter wants an assault rifle to hunt with? Personally, I do, as the bumper sticker says, "support my right to arm bears", as I don't think much of humans who track down animals in an uneven game of killing.

I would like to see guns become obsolete. But that would be Utopia and is probably on another planet in a galaxy, far, far away. Ah, perchance to dream!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:06 PM

And so we go back to the old tired argument "they want to stop Gun Show sales with no ID or background check therefore what they REALLY want is to take everyone's gun away."That is the same BS that the NRA has been spouting for 20 years, and it is that position that is forcing people who are in the middle of this situation to take a harder and harder approach to gun control.

Cara- I wasn't trying to characterize you as an "extremist", only trying to show that their are people who support tighter gun-control who are coming from different positions.

Uilleand- sad to say that some people here couldn't even understand that you were trying to be ironic.

"Cars cause more deaths than guns, therefore let's ban cars (glasses, fertilizer, bleach, lawnmowers, etc.)" Question: What is the primary use of a car? Answer:Transportation. Question :what is the primary use of a shotgun?Answer: Hunting, target-shooting or killing humans. Question:What is the Primary use of an AK47 assault weapon? Answer: Target-shooting or killing humans. The difference is really quite obvious, the argument is a weak one, but one that has become like a piece of sacred text in the NRA Gospel. Repeating it over and over eliminates the need to actually think about it.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: SeanM
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:10 PM

I think I like Kat's idea... Let's support the right to sue guns!

Trying to inject a bit of levity into a tense situation...

M


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: annamill
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:21 PM

Puzzled, May I ask where you live?

Annap


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: John OSh
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:27 PM

Intresting arguments all around. The wonderful thing about both America and this site is it offers an open forum to discuss these issues. As a relatively new participant in Mudcat, and much more frequently just a "reader" rather than an active participant, I enjoy the free discourse.

Now my two cents....

I live in a big city with frequent crime. It is illegal for private citizens except security professionsals and police to own weapons. If it is not related to drug/gang wars, only the unarms population is being killed by the criminals.

We MUST enforce existing laws. Sure, there is strong basis for some gun control laws, such as background checks, mandatory training classes, etc., but not for the outlawing of an individual right under the constitution to bear arms.

I worked in the social services for several years, and I was shocked at the attitudes and permissivness of the parents of many of the children with whom I worked - from all socio-economic backgrounds. They do not monitor what the children watch on television. They bring 10 year old children to R rated horror movies. They feel that it is too much trouble to keep in touch with what their children are reading or what their after school activities/friend are.

Instances such as the Colorado shooting are a flashpoint - to which reasonable people are outraged at an event and often act unreasonably in response.

If some parents were to invest as much effort in rasing their children as in their career - perhaps we would not be discussing this issue in a forum. (I know a lot of parents will be mad - thinking I am attacking them, but I am not. Most parents are good people, attentive to the need needs and challenges of their child.)

A parents job is raising their child, not being the childs friend. As well, it is not, and should not be the governments job to raise our children!

All this leads in a conveluted way to the point on guns - with discipline come the ability to handle responsibility, including the responsibiliy of mature decisions regarding whether or not to own guns by law abiding citizens.

Last point -

Stalin "registered" then disarmed the Armenians with guns - result, over 20 million dead

Hitler "registered" and disarmed the Jew, Gypsys, and political opponents - result, attenpted Genocide.

The Khemer Rouge disarmed the Cambodian population - result, death toll in the millions, final tally still unknown!

Think it can't happen here to some degree?

I bet all the millions dead thought the same thing.

Freedom is not a gift, it is a duty of all citizens, if you choose to own guns or not.

I'll get off my soap box now.

John OSh


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:30 PM

LEJ: i would not be so ridiculous as to suggest that we ban cars glasses, fertilizer, bleach, lawnmowers, etc. but i do say again that i only felt threatened once by some one with a gun and have felt threatened many times with someone else in their car. And i agree that if only assault weapons were not being manufactured we would all be better off. I don't like the fact that people own assault weapons but they do. And i am not opposed to gun show registration or background checks or any type of gun control i just don't see it having much effect in solving the problems caused by gun use.

katlaughing: no one around here lives by the "code of the old west" either except reenactment folks. Maybe we have just been lucky that no one has been shot or killed here. And i feel like i probably agree with you in dreaming. I don't like guns. But they are here.
I "imagine all the people living life in peace". And it really bums me out that the life of the man who could voice that imagination was ended by a handgun.
I will pray for peace.
I will imagine peace.
But i will keep my eyes open to what is really around me.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:33 PM

I live in the Flint hills of Kansas, half way between KC and Wichita. County with 2800 people 750,000 cows.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:40 PM

Margarita: It is innate in permissiveness that one permits others to differ. Thus if the Jocks at Columbine were properly socialised to recognise a permissive society that socialisation would have prevented their victimisation of the Geeks - prevented the same sort of high-school social stratification which many (I think)of us non-Americans find so alarming in much USTV we see. Rather (gosh, on this site I seem to find myself writing American almost by instinct) it is the small-town insistence on sameness and intolerance of difference which leads to the treating of a minority as underdogs - almost outlaws - to be persecuted with impunity, indeed for that persecution to be approved and treated as if it presenves and staabilises society. Hence the recent small-town homophobic murder, and the situation portrayed in the Ode to Billy Joe (as I recollect, a vulnerable teenager being so terrified of the potential small-town condemnation of an isolated homosexual act that he committed suicide). These victims are, or feel, powerless in present societies to achive redress for the injustices piled upon them. Thus they turn to violence against themselves or others. Fix the alienation and you solve not only many gun deaths but also many other deaths.

Llanfair: You remember a different Wales to the one reported by HTV, for whom I used to do some work, and a different one from the Wales where a schoolfriend of mine later had a farm (near Lampeter). In the former the Cardiff gangs routinely go armed. In the latter every Landrover carried several shotguns (some over-and-under pump actions) and most farmers one met out walking carried a twelve bore and at least some swan shot cartridges. Some were pointed at my friend when he showed interest in local farmers' daughters!

BobS: perhaps you have put your finger on it. The genetic imperative compels us to seek genetic survival. That means, in the ultimate solution, killing those who would prevent our gene pool continuing. If that's a desing flaw, and you eliminate it then we will be wiped out by the first competitor that comes along. How does it go? In a closed ecosystem with one dominant predator, if you introduce a superior predator, the former dominant predator will become extinct.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:45 PM

to Puzzled...guess what? I almost think we AGREE! :)


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 18 May 99 - 03:03 PM

And here I thought I was being blatantly ironic. Well, live and learn.

I was trying to say that personal freedom is purely a matter of perspective. I do not feel that my freedom is in any way diminished, if the law says, I can't carry a gun. I've lived under a government that said just that, and life was just fine, actually safer than here. I think most any of us who have lived in such countries most of our lives would agree. I came here and I chafed at having to abide by a speed limit that is much lower than what I was used to. But I see the rational. Statistics show that the majority of guns purchased for personal protection, if used, are turned against the person who bought it in the first place. Sounds like a good argument not to have one in the house. As to hunting and target shooting, well, the strict regulations in Germany allow for those (Gun Clubs, hunting seasons,etc.). It seems to be a much more responsible approach to owning guns. What message exactly are we sending our children by this easy availability of guns? The power struggle seems to be much more reminiscent of a cold war in our own homes, with the occasional casualty being our friends and neighbours. Is that really worth it? No, I choose not to live in constant fear, symbolized by a gun in the house. Guns are not the answer to personal safety.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: annap
Date: 18 May 99 - 03:36 PM

Puzzled,

For a minute there I felt maybe you were from New York ;-)

Annap


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:24 PM

As an aside(but not too far) cars are used as weapons. A lot more often than you might think. Not as often as guns, though.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:28 PM

But, that is not their express purpose of manufacture.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:41 PM

Uilleand--well said.

All,

I'd be interested to hear more from theb non-U.S. Mudders, especially those in the UK, on what it's like in societies with severely restrictive gun laws; do people care? why not? how much safer is it? and in the UK, how did the gun owners react to the passing of tougher laws in the wake of the Dunblane killings?

And to all: what's so different in the U.S.? It seems to me that the Second Amendment has been exploited to suit the whims of the NRA. But then what's behind Americans' fierce desire to own firearms? The right wing government hating militiamen are in the minority (for now) so what drives everyone else? Surely it's not target practice and hunting for sport?


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:47 PM

Cara, from the looks of it: Paranoia/fear of the right wingers? They have gotten an inordinate amount of press which paranoia feeds off of.

Uilleand, very well-said.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Llanfair
Date: 18 May 99 - 04:52 PM

Puzzled.... the point I was trying to make, unsuccessfully, it would appear, is that I felt alienated from the majority of Mudcatters because carrying firearms is not a citizen's right in Britain, and not a consideration for the majority when they feel, or are, threatened. Richard Bridge.....Ilive and work in Wales, and I avoid the cities here as I would in the rest of the UK, by choice. I work as a Social Worker, covering an area of 40 square miles ish, and do not fear stray bullets or any firearms. Mudcat is about a shared delight in Folk and Blues music. This discussion is fascinating, helping me to understand the American philosophies and lifestyle. Thank you for that. Hwyl Bron


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:33 PM

The new points of view are interesting. Also as a non-American (Canadian eh?) I'm a bit non-plussed at the American comfort level with guns. Even the vehemently anti gun folks like Kat have owned 'em, learned to use 'em and shot 'em. I have a wide social circle and can truthfully say that over thirty years perhaps ONE or TWO of my Canadian friends and acquaintances has owned a gun that I have seen. Perhaps many of them DO have guns, but it just NEVER comes up in conversation. Now snowmobiles - that's another story!
A few years ago in the news I read that a TV series was in the works about a Canadian Mountie and an American Sheriff (or marshall) that had to do with the Alaska/Yukon border at the turn of the century. I've completely forgotten the name of the show - help me. The producers (American) absolutely could not believe that the Mounties did NOT carry guns, yet apparently kept the peace as well or better than their "shootin' iron" totin' counterparts. Well not only could they not believe it, but they refused to make the series unless the Mountie started packin'. So the series was made and was successfull, but historically inaccurate.
I should perhaps add, lest I be seen as being self-righteous, that although I can't picture ever killing a creature for the fun of it, I ain't no vegetarian, love steaks, carve leather, and once went to a target shooting club, where I didn't embarrass myself with a .22. I see the irony and my own hypocritical position clearly.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Moonchild
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:59 PM

Richard Bridge ... Ode to Billy Joe is not about homosexuality.

Puzzled ... I'm envious of the fact that you "won't be startled and accidentally fire at some one," and "won't pull the gun unless i KNOW that i feel threatened." I, too, once made those statements, but my attacker robbed me of feelings of security I once had. You are correct in saying I made a good self appraisal in choosing not to own a gun. Remember ... "There but for the grace of g-d, go I."

The diverse reasons for owning/not owning a gun are interesting. I find it interesting that whenever anyone makes a statement regarding gun ownership, they are immediately labeled as Republican or Democrat, a flaming liberal or a John Birch Society conservation. I am a liberal Democrat. I will not own or house a gun, however, I would think nothing of ripping off the testicles of the hooded man who attached me. I wonder how y'll would classify me now. moonchild


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:11 PM

Rick, it was Bordertown. And, I met many people in New England who had never owned a gun and had no desire to. Remember my dad was grew up in the old West on a ranch homsteaded by his grandparents, one of whom was a U.S. Deputy Marshall and had to kill several in his career in self-defense or protection of someone else's life. It was the nature of the settling; NOT something I am particularly proud of, esp, the native american part of me, even though it is just a smidgen.

A gun, in those days, was just part of the rancher's gear, for putting an animal out of its broken-leg misery or protecting oneself, etc. I would bet that at one time, when grocery stores were not readily available, that Mounties did carry some kind of weapon for hunting, another thing I abhor, but do recognise that back then it was part of living.

I feel I've evolved and do not feel the need to live in fear with a gun readily available; never did actually. Now, a can spray paint and we can talk!*smile* It might sound trite, but growing up in the West, guns were just part of the culture. I do not believe our culture, now, is such that they should be a part of it anymore.

Whew! No easy answers! Maybe I'll have to move to Scotland after all.

kat, pacifically


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:37 PM

kat, you don't have to leave for Scotland, it's up to us to live by example and show the world and our children that it isn't necessary to own a gun. Scotland already has the laws. We have to show people here that fear and anger only breed fear and anger. Self-defense requires self discipline, otherwise it becomes just another form of attack. And security requires building a community through compassion, teaching our children that the answer isn't in violence. Even the attacker believes himself to be the defendor, against being oppressed, humiliated, and on and on. It will never end unless we find the courage to lay down our weapons in the face of attack. That is true freedom. Nothing left to lose. Not afraid to lose the ultimate: life itself.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:49 PM

Uilleand, spoken like a true Buddhist*smile*. A nice concept to try to live by, that, of ahimsa, or harmlessness in all things. You have put it very eloquently. Thank you.

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: puzzled
Date: 18 May 99 - 09:51 PM

Freedom of some choices are still possible in this country. And I guess one of the reasons i have spoken up in this thread is because the gun ownership question is a recent one for me and one made with a lot of hard deliberation.
I think that the need to ensure survival of my children is a much stronger force in me than i would have been able to recognize even a couple of years ago. Maybe even THE major part of my decision.
I live in a quiet peaceful area of subtle beauty. A creek whose flowing waters sooth me. Gentle rolling tall grass prairie hills to hike through and feel at peace in. It was very disturbing to have that so unexpectedly invaded.
I am a calm person, slow to anger. I have no fear of domestic violence because our house is a home of joy and love. I choose a weapon for the same reason some people buy insurance. It provides a feeling of security. Like it or not even my kids feel safer and sleep easier now because they know we are prepared to deal with an unwelcome armed intruder. It still was a hard choice for me. But i am glad i was able to make my own choice.
Now i pray that we are never again faced with the need to follow through on that choice.
I certainly understand other people's strong opposition to such a choice. I hear moonchild's anger and fear of her attacker and could care less how she votes, I would willing help hold down the hooded asshole as she ripped him up. I admire Uilleand's ability to make such a sacrifice for the belief of doing no harm. But i am also aware of where my own comfort zone is and have chosen true to my own heart.
I'd rather be singing.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bud
Date: 18 May 99 - 11:29 PM

It is extraordianry how American society in the last century (can't use that term much longer about the 1800's) went from a country where most men went around armed to a society where the only persons who publicly wore guns were law officers. With the exception of Prohibition Era gangsters, this trend continued for the first sixty years of this century. In the sixties there seemed to be a sea-change in alot of American attitudes in a variety of areas. Many were long overdue starting with civil rights, equality for women, and the tolerance of smoking everywhere.

Other changes were destructive of the fabric of society. Movies and televison started to the trend of programs that featured violence as the justification the film\program. The wide spread abuse of drugs has lead to a Prohibition-style gangster culture. The 1800's overcame the dangers of opium. (Heroin got its start as a sort of methadone for opium users. OOPS!!! That is why it has its name.)

In the village I grew up in fifty-odd years ago nearly all the males and many of the females hunted. Opening day of pheasant season saw a marked drop in school attendance. Yet the idea of using firearms on others was beyond the pale. That small village is now a large suburb. Hunting season is not followed by many. I haven't hunted since I got married. (My wife was savaged by her grandmother's guard dog and was uncomfortable about having a dog in the house. I won't hunt with out a dog, lest game not be found and left to linger.)

I don't have a gun now, but vigorously support the right of others to responsibly own guns. I do not belong to the NRA becaause they seem to oppose any change. I do not own a gun, but have a card that would allow me to. That will no doubt bring me grief when the politically correct force the law-abiding to surrender their guns!


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 11:40 PM

Never thought I'D say this, but could we get back to music for one question? What the hell WAS "Ode to Billy Joe" about? What were they flingin' off the Talahatchie Bridge? Was it his N.R.A. membership? If Richard is right, maybe it was his Judy Garland records. Heather says it was a baby, but surely even pop music wouldn't sink that low.
Poor Bobby Gentry, one hit and she joins the "never to be heard from again club".


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 May 99 - 12:46 AM

Rick- I can't remember. Was Sergeant Preston packin' ? Seems like he had a Winchester strapped to the old sled. Now it is interesting that Canadians, who opened up the Canadian West just as we were opening up (screwing up?) our West, did it without using guns for hunting- did they just trap game? That would require more patience than the average American possesses. Maybe that explains the differences between our two nations, who otherwise have so much in common- you guys are just willing to wait things out.

And by the way, this is the most reasonable discussion of guns and gun control that I have ever witnessed. Thanks for starting it Tucker.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alex
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:20 AM

I started out by calling Tucker a Dingbat (what is the definition of a dingbat, anyway?) because there was already a thread that was ongoing and he chose to make a political statement by spinning off another thread (this one) and I felt that it should not go unanswered. His "friends" (all 8 of them) supported him and some others chastised me for my rhetoric. They asked where did I come from, and Banjer, although kind in his analysis of my interests and sense of humor, proved delightfully schitzophrenic by searching my previous posts and "outing" my location in the US. He also noted that I have been posting since 10/22/96 That is true and I have been using this forum to help folks and get information on folk music since then.. Hey, I did the forum browse thing, Bob Schwarer is the closest at 11/4/96 and most of you are within the last 12 months. Tucker's first post (under that id) was 4/10/99 - how do you make so many friends in a month? I reiterate my statements that this should be a sharing site for folk music enthusiasts and that we should shun those who would use this for their extremist views.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:31 AM

Rick, I'm with Heather. I always took it to mean a baby was thrown off the bridge.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: SeanM
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:29 AM

Alex, please. Mudcat, as has been noted in ample other threads, has grown. Music is, and will always be the focus of what is discussed here. For the most part, as has ALSO been noted in several other threads, the musical conversations greatly outnumber the non-musical ones. A disproportionate amount of the non-musical threads stay near the top of the thread list, partially due to the fact that there's a limit on how many times you can post alternate chord structures or lyrics, but there is an almost infinite variety of opinions on most major subjects in today's world. I would politely request of you, that if you do not enjoy the other threads, then PLEASE stop posting to them. I'm certain that you have a great deal of knowledge regarding the musical topics that we discuss, but your style of 'discourse' is proving to be a bit abrasive in the other threads.

As to the topic at hand?

I support the criminalization of hand gun ownership. There are not enough situations where a hand gun is the best or most effective deterrent. Non-lethal deterrents are smaller and easier to use in close quarters, and in the household, a rifle or shotgun is much less likely to be easily stolen and used against it's owner, as well as having a significantly higher intimidation factor against an intruder.

My three cents, and apologies for the opening rant.

M


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: hank
Date: 19 May 99 - 09:15 AM

I find it interesting that people can feel safe in the UK with all the Irish problems. (Not taking sides on that conflict)
Not. People feel safe where they are unless there is some reason not to. The US is a perfectly safe place to be, I feel in no way threatened, and I never have. Maybe that will change, but I don't understand the people who live in fear as I've never lived that way.

I'm just trying to turn this discussion around, because there seem to be people who fear someone, and therefore hate guns. (Remember a gun never kills unless an action is taken to cause it to fire, and those actions are done by humans, accident or not) I still contend that it is the fear that needs to be faced and solved, not the means of causing it.

I would not claim your fears are groundless. There may indeed be people with guns out to get you. There are peole with guns out to get everyone they can. But guns are not the cause, guns are one means, and they have used others in the past, with more success.

I don't claim to offer solutions, but I will contend that taking away my guns won't solve your fear. Drugs are illegal, and cocain doesn't grow in the US, yet tons of it arrive in the US every year despite a strong US presence in areas where it is grown. Those who you fear will either find a gun like they find drugs now, or they will find anouther way to get you.

We have laws about murder already, but it doesn't stop intentional murder. WE have laws about what the police can do, but it didn't stop the Branch Daividian thing. (Not to defend the Branch Daividians who were not great people, but they police going against them were not doing their job right)


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:37 AM

It seems to me that a lot of people in this discussion who are supporting the right to own guns site "fear" as their reason for wanting to own a gun. If you're owning a gun because you feel the need to defend yourself, you must fear something.

Having lived in London for a while (in 1992, during a period of intensive IRA bombings), I can say that, personally, I felt much safer there than I ever felt in New York or Washington DC or any other American city that I spent any time in. And I think part of the reason I feel less safe in America is "guns" and another part of it is a general distrust of one's fellow man (and woman) that seems more prevalent here than in other places in the world. And they're two sides of the same coin. In general, the flow of life in America, I think, isolates people. Driving all the time. Sitting in front of the TV all the time. There's much less socializing in the States, and I think it makes us feel less comfortable around people. And distrust them. And maybe even fear them. And I think it's distrust and fear that makes us want to buy guns.

Of course, there are some very real reasons to fear and distrust, but the situation seems somehow self-perpetuating. Someone in this discussion used the phrse "cold war" to describe the gun situation here in the States, which I thought was very appropriate.

That's not to say that the rest of the world is having an all-out love-in. But people seem much more at ease with strangers in other places I've lived--in Europe and Asia--than they do here.

Sorry to go on and on, tomtom


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:40 AM

Wow, Hank. I guess I've been reading these a bit differently. The fear I see is coming from those who have guns and are prepared to use them for defense because of the fear they feel from other segments of the population.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 19 May 99 - 01:12 PM

Oh no, Tomtom and Kat. I do not own a gun because of fear. It's a practical matter of preparedness. Looking at what can and does happen in today's society with people being attacked in their own homes, we have taken a precaution by having guns in the house.

I never think about them. I never think about being attacked. I don't fear attack. I am prepared as best I can be to defend my family against whatever. Our guns are LOCKED UP, even thought they are in the ready position (cocked and locked).

It's no different to me than seeing the clouds gathering on the horizon, and grabbing an umbrella before I go out just in case it rains. Likewise, even though I own an umbrella, I don't fear getting rained upon.

Alex, the best way to avoid these threads is to not open them up. But you are drawn to them anyway. Why? You said, " I reiterate my statements that this should be a sharing site for folk music enthusiasts", yet you yourself join in the reading and posting to the non-music threads. Why? Don't you think that avoiding them might be more consistant with what you believe ought to be going on here? Just curious.

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Guns, & death in general.
From: Fadac
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:09 PM

Another 0.02 worth. Gun control, well if it worked I'd be for it. The sad truth is that it just dosn't work. Oh, the Nazi's had gun control, as did the Soviets, did it work... not really. Criminal control, that has a better chance of working. Use a gun (leathal force) in a crime and get 20 years attached to your sentince. That would at least put a 20 year pause in repeat crimes.

I feel for the kids in Colorado, but would we feel any better if they were killed in a bus? In that case, if I want to do someone in, just run them down with a car. (oops!) That is OK? I feel killing is killing, what ever the means. 50,000 dead in car wrecks, 350,000 a year from smoking, another 100,000 from booze. All preventable, all for no reason.

Lets write a sad song, and get on with living life. Fadac, X army, two tours in Viet Nam, current gun owner.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:11 PM

Let's see. If 13 kids were killed on a bus in Colorado what would we do- Probably make sure that the bus was licensed and inspected (shouldn't do that with guns though,correct), we'd make sure that the driver was a responsible individual, including licensing and proper background checks(not a good idea with guns ,right), heck, we might even decide that that kind of bus was inherently dangerous and should be banned ( not a valid argument against an AK47, I see).

You know what, Fadac, if we gave guns and gunowners the same supervision we give buses and busdrivers, I think we would all be better off.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:16 PM

Help! I'm really trying to understand this. It is not meant as an attack on your convictions, Margarita. But could you be more specific about why you feel you need to be prepared and exactly what you are prepared for, what you would do in such a situation?

I find it very disconcerting that one would compare the use of any type of weapon with that of an umbrella. But, I really want to understand. If it's not fear that is the motivator, then what is?

Thanks for broadening my insight. (This is not meant ironically in any way, I'm very serious.)


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:42 PM

LEJ, Well, they DO have special lisc. for buses and school bus drivers. Still school busses have gone off roads and killed kids. Other school busses have interfaced with trains.

I have no problem with taking proper training for gun ownership. But after the training, I want the privlage of carring a handgun if I feel the need to do so. Perhaps if there were more armed citizens, there would be less shootings in places like MacDonalds, etc. Perhaps even less muggings. What do you suppose muggers would do if they knew about 1/4 of the people on the street were armed and trained to use said arms? How many house break ins are there in Swistzerland?

I had to take special training to fly an airplane. I wish drivers (cars) had to take the same training that aircraft pilots do. Let's see, every two years you have to hire a driving instructor, to make sure that you know how to change lanes, park, etc. I have to do that with my pilots lisc.

Getting all excited when ever the word 'gun' is mentioned isn't going to help. Unless you just want high blood pressure.

BTW, a few years ago, this nut took an AK47 and shot up some school children. So why did some judge up in Oregon let this piece of trash out of jail. They had him in jail, and could have put him away for years and years. Instead they just let him go, and told him. "By the way, if you feel like comming back, we will put you on trial". (side note to that, a woman was driving drunk and hit a group of five or six kids waiting for their school bus. She killed a couple of the kids. The cops wern't even sure if they were going to charger her with more than invountary manslaughter! The news media dropped it like a hot potato, and pushed the gun story.

So everybody decided to get rid of assult guns (What ever that is, nobody can seem to define it.) instead of doing anything to the dumb judge that let this dirtbag go.

So lets register judges!


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Mudjack
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:43 PM

All the gun legislation in the world won't fix the problem and show me anyone in today's world who will die over the second amendment. What is in my home is my business and will I defend it? Yes with anything I own rather it be a gun or a song regardless of what my constitutional rights are.
I am always impressed with the bumber sticker that says it all.
You can have my GUNS, over my dead body.
To me it simply sums it up, no matter what gun prohition laws are passed, some will give their lives in defending that right. When the Gestapos come knocking on your door, will you live up to your promise,and die for your rights? or will you give in like the rest of us passive taxpayers? Mudjack @ Mudcat's political forum...


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Moonchild
Date: 19 May 99 - 04:11 PM

Okay ... Ode to Billy Joe was about infanticide and suicide. It was part of my repetoire because I had many requests for it.

Actually, I don't have a problem with other's owning guns, as long as they take the necessary precautions and reponsibility of ownership. My father carries a shotgun when he goes fishing in North Florida because he frequently encounters rattlesnaks, cottonmouths, and alligators. My sister lives in Alaska, is an ace shootist, and keeps her guns locked in a steel gun cabinet.

And, yes, I have a tremendous amount of anger in me, and probably will for the rest of my life. And I won't own a gun because I'm afraid of being startled and shooting an innocent. I do, however, have police-quality tear gas foam, and, if someone does cause me to use it, whether they are innocent or not, I will not feel guilty.

And, Alex ... I agree with all those who say you should not open a thread if it screams of BS.

I come from a very conservative family, my closest friends are very conservatiive, my coworkers are conservative. I enjoy the BS threads because it gives me an opportunity to have some rousing "conversations," with a group of mostly intelligent people, whether we all agree or not.

If this isn't your thing, (how many different ways can one say) don't go there ... moonchild


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 May 99 - 05:28 PM

I think the "music only" folks are drawn to these threads like moths to a flame. Who knows, they may emerge as "smarter moths!"

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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alex
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:23 AM

Who you callin' a smart moth?


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 May 99 - 05:02 AM

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm a dumb limey, and don't have the benefit of having my 'rights' enshrined in a written constitution.

The way things (used to?) work over this side of the pond are that the rights of the individual are always subject to the rights of the community. At least, that's the way I see it. The possible outcry against the criminalisation of handgun ownership after Dunblane never happened - because we thought it more important to do something.

I'm having a little difficulty relating to the fear evident in the postings of all the guys who need firearms to defned themselves against the government. OK, I can understand that much of the US is remote and unpoliced, and that responsible residents of those areas need to preserve some deterrent against crime. But how many of you are scared of what Washington might do? What's the historical background??

Incidentally, I possess a firearms certificate, and a license to handle explosives. In the UK, individual weapons have to be licensed and listed on the document - mine says "Calibre: 4 3/4 in - Type: Cannon". However, I've never been tempted to take it to McDonalds with me.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 May 99 - 05:25 AM

Dai, which side are you on with that cannon?

Penny


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 May 99 - 06:43 AM

Godde Sayve Kynge Charles Stuart, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, and Queen Christina of Sweden!
Earl of Northampton's Regiment, Sir William Compton's Companie. Please don't tell me you're in Skippon's.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Banjer
Date: 20 May 99 - 07:04 AM

Well!! Alex comes out from hiding with the question...."What is a Dingbat anyway?"....It seems that before you call another a name it would help to know what you are calling them...And me, I am now a SCHIZOPHRENIC...Ah, Alex, you say the kindest things...Thanks from both of us!!

PS All note that Alex is getting into the swing of things by asking Rick "Who are ya calling a 'smart moth'"?...Kinda infectious, this litle group, huh Alex?


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 May 99 - 07:38 AM

I humbly take back "smart moth".


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: hank
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:55 AM

What if 13 kids were killed on a bus because one kid wrestled the driver out of his chair, and rolled the bus? I think that is a more apt anology as these kids broke several laws in colorado to get the guns in school. Two kids can easially wrestle most bus drivers down, and once the kid gets the bus moving the rightful driver will have no correct way to get back in control, wresteling the kid out risks the same thing the kid did, and letting the kid say does the same.

As for fear, I do not own a gun because I'm afraid, I own a gun because I enjoy a weekend hunting, and the DNR enjoys me paying to help them control populations so that they don't have to hire hunters to control excess animoles.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:42 AM

I've just gone to the trouble of looking up the 2nd amendment, not being familiar with the text. This in the light of just hearing about more shootings at a school over there... hm...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

How do you reconcile this statement, clearly aimed at having a dispersed guerilla force to fight the British should they ever reinvade the colony, with the proliferation of firearms meaning that your granny has to pack a Steyr AUG?

Somebody, please explain this to me. I do not understand.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:10 AM

Ah, Brits, well I did live in the UK for a while. The British have such creative ways of killing people. Shotguns are reasonably avaible, as well as hacksaws. But to compair the British with Americans on this item, really isn't fair to either side. After all you could drop 90% of the UK into California, and still have a bit of room left over. Also they have had much more opresive goverments than we have had. They just fought their goverments with bows and arrows. However I do remember reading a magizine from the 1940's begging Americans to send what ever they had in rifles and handguns to England. I think that was all about Hitler or some such guy over-there.

The last time a loose Militia was formed was abour the time of Pancho-Via. He raided up into New Mexico, killing Americans. For some reason the Americans didn't like that very much, and they fought back. What all this has to do with a law-abiding citizen from owing a handgun, is beyond me. I'd rather play my accordion than shoot anyway. However if I find someone harming my wife or children, I WILL use any means to protect them. If I have to shoot, I will. Anyway, lets go squeeze a tune. :)


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:32 AM

Dai, if I was in anything, I'd be a Digger! Leveller at least. When I was interested, there wouldn't have been any way for me, as a woman, to do anything sufficiently aggressive. I'm not aggressive any more.

And the really nice thing about not having guns about is that I don't have to think about guns unless I want to.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:35 AM

One more for gun culture.

I don't understand either Dai. And I live here. My home state, Ohio, has been plagued by this new militia uprising--these new ones, which received a lot of press post-Oklahoma City, are arming themselves against the US government though, not a foreign force. Lots of "jack-booted thugs" rhetoric; same language was used in an NRA membership letter a few years back, which angered some. I have issues with Big Government from time to time myself, but I prefer to deal with it using those other Constitutional rights of mine; the vote and my free speech. "You have to use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house" (Audre Lord, I believe).

If everyone wants to blame this on the media creating bad kids, let's look a little further back: is the media's obsession with gun violence so far removed from America's obsession with guns?

I just have to cling to the hope that America will wake up as a nation and see that this gun culture thing just isn't working out for us. Why are there laws about helmets and seat belts and car seats? Because people are too bull headed to do it on their own. They can't handle the responsibility apparently. Same with guns; we have had the right to bear arms for long enough to prove that we can't handle it.

My colleague just called to say that her son's high school in suburban VA received a bomb threat this morning. I just talked to her and she's frantic, in the wake of all this other crap who wouldn't be? Where does it end.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Cara
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:44 AM

I really wanted to say that I loved Dai's point about the rights of the community superceding the rights of the individual; or rather, the good of the community being held above all. Isn't it time we all agree (here in the US) that the greater good is not served by the proliferation of easily-available weaponry? "The greatest good for the greatest number"--that Utilitarian guy (John somebody, a Brit I think) had the right idea.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 20 May 99 - 11:06 AM

Another .02 worth.

I get real nervis when I hear about "The People" being more important than any individual. Isn't that the phrase the Nazis used. Something like, "We need to protect you from the Jew."

You just can't pass laws and protect everyone from everything. (In the UK they used to hang people for stealing bread.) Some where down the line, folks have to look out for themselves. People must take responsibilty for their own actions. If you are under age, then your parents are responsable.

I ride a motorcycle. If I choose not to wear a helmet, I may injure myself more if I have an accident. My problem, my responsibilty. Should I expect scocity to take care of me, yes, in the emergcy room if needed. You might say, well that's self infliceted, so we are not going to pay for that. OK, how about shin splints on joggers?

The media. Egad, how I hate them. When they had the Rodny King riots a few years ago, down in La la land. The local news people were almost in tears that they couldn't report on a riot too. I saw this "newsi" talking to a black guy, and saying something like this. "Hey, they are rioting down in La, Why aren't you rioting too?" I thought that the news guy was going to give the black guy a brick to throw. Fortunitly the black guy was smart enough to figgure out what this clown was doing to him. He just laughed and walked away.

Don't EVER underestamate the power of the media. They live for only two things. Misory and sensiationalizm (sp?). They also have no responsobilty to anyone but them selves. We don't let any other goups get away with that. (Cops, firemen, school bus drivers) You can't even get a finiacial disclosure from a news person. So who's paying them on the side?

Too much for a cloudy Thursday.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Bulldog
Date: 20 May 99 - 11:53 AM

If the Soviet Union could not disarm the Pathans in Afghanistan. The British have not disarmed the IRA for 500 years. How on earth are you going to prevent anyone from manufacturing guns in their own back yard workshops? Murder can be committed by golf clubs, knives, arrows, spears, chainsaws, axes, shovels, bombs, poisons and a variety of weapons. What will we register next??? The NRA support education and responsible use of firearms yet everyone dumps on them! Well people, Ignorance can be cured but Stupidity we have to live with. As for the Shits in society. we need to be protected from criminals and the police are not here to protect individuals. You are responsible to protect yourself, then let the police figure out if it was justified. Personally I think it is easier to get out of jail than to get out of a grave. I will keep the ability to defend me and mine thank you......


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:07 PM

The media, of which I am a part, are motivated by one thing only, what sells. If the public will buy it, they will publish it. IT's as simple as that. If you don't like what they are doing, get rid of your cable, discontinue the newspaper, turn of your radio, start your own. Start a boycott; talk to your neighbours and friends about it.

The media is panning to the majority of the masses which, I believe, mostly has its head up its ass.

Cara is right. If we truly want change we must exercise our right to vote and to use free speech. Voting numbers are pathetic; something like 20% of the elgible voters in this country actually voted. The rest either complain that their one vote won't matter or would rather posture, complain, load up and prepare for Big Government's seige. Guess what? Big Government is us! Americans with families, mortgages, and other things just like the rest of us.

Arming ourselves against each other is a throwback mentality of fear of the unknown, of change, of anything different; of trying to talk it out, come to a compromise and find real solutions for why people feel the need for violence. It is a construct leftover from pioneering days and the patriarchal Picean Age, in which the solution to almost any conflict, has been violence.

This is the Aquarian Age, an age of balance and equality. The death throes of the old age are causing the anxiety and extremes of violence and reactions. Answering violence with violence will never solve the problem.

You shoot an intruder, an extremist neighbor who assaulted your family. You stand trial and get off on self-defense. His family,being the extremists he taught them to be, vow revenge and come after you. You are under seige, again, and it could become an all out war with the "feds" coming in. So, was arming yourself the solution? Did it result in anything positive?

Was there a third solution, maybe even a fourth? Could you arm yourself with non-lethal means which police are starting to use, including gobs of gluey stuff which shoots long range then hardens on the person so that they cannot move? Or any of a number of other non-lethal methods coming out?

When we keep our consciousness on a level of fear and expectation of violence, we can attract such happenings. Using the power of our mind to create a "bubble" of protection powered by whatver god you might believe in can help, as well as keeping your thoughts in a positive vein; and using practical knowledge which keeps you aware of what is going on around you.

I know there are arguments against such a "pollyanna" statement, but there are also anecdotal stories which prove the protection can work, according to our individual beliefs.

Race consciousness, by which I mean the common, cleective consciousness of humankind, may claim that we are threatened and no place is safe. We can rise above that to the Truth, or to what could be if we keep our consciousness focussed on the positiveness we would like to manifest in our lives. This can have a ripple effect every bit as powerful, if not more powerful than the negative vibrations of the masses, thus passing on the more positive effects to others, much as we pass on the beauty and care of music here.

We do not have to buy into the negativity of race consciousness. If one-by-one we were to refuse to believe it, then pass that positiveness on to the next person, it could have a snowball effect, just as the first person who decided not to throw away a soda bottle, started the recycling movement which may save out planet from ourselves.

In the Big Picture, of course, it doesn't matter. We are a miniscule part of the Earth's history and She will go on with or without us. And, regardless of any measures we may take to tune-in and stay safe with or without lethal means, it is my belief that karma plays an equally important role which sometimes cannot be overcome. Also, that when it does come our time to "go", there is nothing which will circumvent that event.

Sorry, Penny, I don't think that's very squidgy, today. Dai, I don't understand some of us over here, either. It's as though America is a teenage hoodlum who just hasn't matured enough to see the harmfullness and non-efficacy of its ways.

kat, where'd those worms come from, I just opened this can!


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Alice
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:22 PM

Please see the related thread, More Casualties


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:39 PM

My father was the oldest of ten children who when his parents emigrated from Dublin to Brooklyn stayed a while and moved to Toronto, Canada. Thus we were the only ones in our family to grow up in Canada. I visit my American kin several times a year. There are many things I like about the United States, but as a Canadian I can't begin to fathom the second amendment. I have very conservative views by Canadian standards, I'm in favour of capital punishment if there is concrete evidence that a murder was willingly committed, and I believe that jail terms are far to short in many cases.

I do not want the right to own a gun, and I sure as hell don't want to be in a society where my neighbours have that right. Guns kill, plain and simple. It's who they kill that concerns me the most. About ten years ago Life Magazine devoted an entire issue to the devastation that was caused by guns the previous year, printing pictures of all the victims with a brief description of the cause of death. The vast majority were killed either accidently or intentionally by the "Family gun" Many of these victims were children. I realize that each year a great number of children are accidently poisoned in their homes from, many drown in backyard pools, are run over by family vehicles etc. But guns are designed for killing. How many domestic arguments have ended in tragedy because there was a gun handy? You could argue that kitchen knives have caused a large number of deaths in these situations, but at least you have a chance of overpowering or outrunning a person wielding a knife, you also have a far greater chance of surviving a knife wound than a gunshot.

There is a chance that my home may be broken into. There is nothing that I own that is important enough to me to put my children's lives at risk by having a gun in the house. The NRA have said for years that if you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns. What a crock of crap. Outlaws will continue have guns, but so will the police forces who are paid to defend us from outlaws. Canada is not as safe a place as it was when I was growing up, but I trust that my family and I will be protected from the criminal element.

I know that I am responsible enough to own a gun, but I'm not willing to bet my life that the general population is as responsible.

I believe the second ammendment was written over two hundred years ago. Times were a lot different and the threat of The U.S.A being attacked by any number of countries was still great. The U.S. did not have the military strength assembled that they do now and I could see why in that era it was not a bad idea to have arms readily available just in case a makeshift army had to be assembled in a hurry. But those times are long gone and it is time to stop the carnage. I know that I'm not going to change anyone's views nor they mine. The only thing this forum will prove is that nobody knows what the heck "Ode to Billy Joe" is about.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 20 May 99 - 01:16 PM

This is about .01 worth.

I'm sure the parents of Sally Klass, may not agree. Oh, How come when I fly in parts of Canada, I'm REQUIRED to have a firearm in the aircraft? One thing about shooting someone in the act of raping your wife. You can be SURE that one will never hurt anyone again. Perhaps walking around armed in old fashoned. But unitll about 100 years ago, a gentleman just didn't go on the streets without being armed. People were a lot more polite then. I wonder why?

On the media again, nothing new there. Wasn't it the Spanish American war started by a N.Y. NEWSPAPER OWNER. Didn't he tell his reportors, "You report, I'll provide the war." I think it was Hurst, but I'm not sure.

Two stories: 1. Woman beat up and raped = Front page news 2. Woman shoots raper = Big news on dead rapers family.

I did see a woman crying on Chicago TV. She was all upset that her "Good Boy" was shot and killed robbing a liqure store. Her "Good Boy" had robbed THAT store four times that month! (Didn't say he was the brightest lamp on the tree.) The cops had busted him over 20 times for robery. Finely one store owner had enough.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Tucker
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:36 PM

ok, I have a fews things to admit, One: yes I am new to Mudcat, Two: I have been in folkmusic longer than most of you: Three: If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen! 4, I think I have made some friends here, and maybe we disagree about some things, but I will not attack you personally. That is what America is about. If you don't want to own a firearm, fine, but please don't try to insult me to advance your cause. I Deplore violence! I hate discord! War sucks. I want to see a wonderful world...no robberys, no murders, no presidents avoiding rape charges by invading other countries. Ok, I have made probably half of you mad. You love it or you wouldn't be reading this. If you can handle it hang on, more to come! I saw a lot of feed back from foreign (to US viewers)users. Ok guys, you in England and such. Who did you look to in WW1 and WW2? Like today, we had no reason to be involved in any Balkan war, but for your kings and lords we got involved and lost 3/4 of a million of our people. We used to learn a lot in history class, but no longer. I have many guns hanging on my walls. Most haven't been shot in years, and unless I am threatened will harm no one again. I cannot say the same for their history. A spanish mauser was used to surpress their civil war. A Turkish Mauser was used to kill " Allied Troops" in WW1. Two SKS rifle symbolize communisium and the damn fear I had to live through as a child. Christ! Our teacher in 6th grade told us we would be incinerated by thermoneuular bombs! Now Bloody Bill has sold us out to China and you want me to give up my guns? Oh, and I didn't mention the use of the two Lee-Enfields did I? We neer-do- well americans ( I could be classified as native american, by and by,). The Lee-Enfields, won't kill black africans again,Nor Turks, Nor Irish, Nor Scots,Nor anyone else. I recall an account of a London newspaper where a five year old was hanged. The poor waif didn't weigh enough to suffieciently kill himself ( for stealing bread ) that the hangman had to grab onto the poor child and hold onto him until he was dead! And you English want to tell us about " Gun Control!

admittedlly, I realize there is double speak here and like Rick I want to get back to music. The first amendment, like the 2nd, like the 10th, mean what they say. I respect our overseas friends but I am an American And had I wished to be disarmed an go through another Cologen I would make passage with Bonnie Prince Charlie Two Never Happen!


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Chet W.
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:57 PM

If you can step outside of simple-minded tunnel vision for two seconds, nobody, at least not me, wants to take your guns. I just want them to be harder to get. Law-abiding sane citizens like yourself can fill their homes to the ceilings with guns for all I care; I just don't want them to be routinely and easily available to young people or criminals, particularly demonstrated ones. If you're truly not willing to change your lifestyle just a little bit to even slightly increase another parent's chances of getting their kid home at the end of the school day, then I hope I am one of the half of your friends with whom you have no common ground. One of you needs to learn a little history, and the other should be a little more cautious about twisting it to their own purposes like some kind of Limbaugh/Liddy robot. If your cajones are still intact, check the "Hesitatingly, GUNS again" thread and answer my question. What if it was the school your children attend. Do you give a damn about anyone else?

Angrily, Chet W.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:02 PM

Melt 'em down and make em' inta pisspots. That way they can all stop pissing in the wind. Mmmmmm, mayhap there's a song in that?


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:37 PM

Uilleand: I will try to explain owning a gun but not out of fear. As I see it, you can do almost anything with different motivations. You could brush your teeth because you're AFRAID you'll get cavities or you can do it because you know it is a good measure of prevention, but not really WORRY about it.

I owned a cafe years ago in rural Oregon. At that time I thought it a good idea to carry a firearm. I got a concealed weapon permit and always had it with me when doing business, or shopping for the restaurant. I took gun safety courses (not required at that time) and practiced handling my weapon. I was prepared to take care of myself in the event of foul play. After all, I was young and single. It just seemed like a good idea.

I'm sorry I don't seem to be very articulate about doing something without fear. I simply don't know how to express it other than saying I'm not afraid.

We do have guns in the house. They are LOCKED UP and I NEVER think about them. They are a tool at the ready. The kung fu master always preached "expect the unexpected". I guess that describes it.

It is a dangerous thing to be fixated on the weaponry of the past tragic school shootings. I have heard in the news some people say things like "the first thing I thought of was where did they get the guns?" GOOD HEAVENS, I shout at the TV, MY FIRST THOUGHT IS HOW DID THAT CHILD COME TO THAT STATE OF MIND THAT THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING SO HORRIBLE?

I believe it is truly naievete to want to make more and more laws restricting ability to get guns because let's face it. They WILL ALWAYS BE Available via black market. Let's get to the root of the problem instead.

I'm getting dizzy...I think the air is thin up here on this soap box. I'm getting down now :o)

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Slider
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:04 PM

Ever since the horrible event in Colorado, I've been hearing a song from Carole King's album "Tapestry" in my head. Remember "Smackwater Jack" ? Seems to me that the whole scenario is laid out there with only minor modifications...instead of a church,think school...instead of "Big Jim The Chief",think The Government...instead of the undertaker, think The Media...Just a few lines from someone who checks in often but seldom has something to say. Greetings from a very wet Minnesota.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Uilleand
Date: 21 May 99 - 10:13 AM

Tucker, I'm sorry you feel insulted because of differing opinions. It seems we all have rather strong beliefs and feel as passionately about the subject as you do. It maybe easier to assume that no insult is meant, and acknowledge that it is just a heated argument. Because if we'd all take offense at everything we'd really be at each others' throats. And hopefully there is no gun around, lest someone be overcome by passionately defending their point of view.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:02 AM

Hi. Just a short disclaimer here. I certainly have nothing of value to contribute to this thread since the collecting of guns as a hobby is as much a mystery to me as sticking pins in dead butterflies and putting them in glass cases.I just wanted to let folks know that contrary to Tucker's claim that "like him, I want to get back to music", my last posting was supposed to be a small bit of humour in a pretty heavy thread. Just a little tension breaker, ya know. I'll never be one of the "less B.S. more music" folks, cause I think there's a very healthy balance.
I think it's great that the "furriners" feel comfortable enough to speak honestly about the subject, and I gather that they they repress small grins when they hear the old "We bailed you out in two wars" thing. Gotta keep in mind, since most of us like music from other countries, we often comment on cultural differences between us. Seems fair game to me, even in sensitive areas.
But I gotta tell ya Tucker, I'd rather hear you describing your flowers than your arsenal.
Rick (deprived of armaments as a child)


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:15 AM

Tucker,

I think you're being a little hard on our British friends overseas. Maybe I missed something, but I can't recall reading anthing by a Brit in this thread that was particularly confrontational or insulting. And believe it or not, even though they're only British, they're entitled to an opinion about gun control, too. In fact, opinions from people who are "outside" a situation can often be valuable. They can peer inside the "heat in the kitchen" without getting their glasses steamed up.

I'm also struck by a lot of your language. Things like "And you English want to tell us about Gun Control!" I'm American (actually only half, my father's East Indian, fresh off the boat), but I don't consider people from other countries as other than myself. And I don't think their opinions are worthless, even if this particular discussion has to do with the situation in America.

I'm also struck by your incessant looking to the past. Of course, we can learn from history. The Cold War taught me how short-sighted and stupid people can be. And I'm talking about BOTH SIDES of the Cold War coin. I don't know when this poor boy was hanged for steeling bread, but I don't think it was in the last couple of weeks. And I don't think it's bound to happen again any time soon. And if you want to look into the sordid history of a nation (and remain on the topic of hangings), why don't we think about lynchings in this country for a moment, and think about how recently those disgusting events have taken place. But then again, why can't we instead look to the future, and find a way to make sure these types of things don't happen again. Finger pointing and playing your-country's-worse-than-my-country isn't going to help anything.

Oh yeah, and disarm the world. :)

tomtom


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 21 May 99 - 12:51 PM

Tom Tom, Amen.

Rick, your response was a repressed grin? I'm not even gonna go there.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 01:47 PM

TomTom, The reason that some of us pick on the Brits so hard is, that if you have been there. You get all this upitiy attatude. Like, "You Americans, you have to have big gass guzzlers, gas would be cheeper if you drove cars like us." Yeah this dufus really said that to me when I was in the midlands. Now 99% of the Brits are really cool people, but remember they shipped out radicals for over 400 years. So the ones that are left, well, the genes have been picked over for a while. Now, I'd love to move to Scotland. So I don't hate them all that much. Also a long drive for my UK friends is about 15 miles. Over that they want to stay overnight. (no kidding) I used to tell them that driving from San Francisco is like driving from London to Moscow. However I lied, That drive would only get you to Chicago. You are a 1000 miles short of NY. Folks in Europe just don't relize how big the US of A is. I live near San Francico, and I can take you places, within a 100 miles, where you will be 20 miles from a road. You either hike, fly, or ride a horse to get around. BTW you might want a rifle or a handgun there. Cougers get about one jogger a year. Last year a friend of mine had a deer in his front yard. The poor thing freaked out as everyone tried to catch it. (he lives about 15 miles from the woods) I'm not saying he should have shot it, but suppose that it was a couger and you hade a youngster in your yard. Sound unlikly, yes probably is, however, hunting is becomming less popular, so the food supply is less and less for more and more critters. ( I do rember my father shooting a bear on our back portch, back in about 1952. The bear wanted the garbage.) OH, well, that's my .02 worth. Happy Friday.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 02:26 PM

Fadac,

I used to live and work in London, so I guess I do know how Brits can be--whatever that meams. But maybe this British fellow was refering to the fuel-efficiency of American cars as compared to European cars. But even if this guy was a real putz (aka wanker), that doesn't mean Brits or Italians or Mongolians can't have interesting, informed opinions about what goes on in the States. Even the French can have informed opinions:). (That's just a joke, don't shoot me).

You said: "Now, I'd love to move to Scotland. So I don't hate them all that much." I hope this is a joke. If not, I'm sure all the Scottish Mudcatters out there are relieved.

tomtom


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:07 PM

Here's a really good thread to read which has some bearing on some of what is being said here. Well worth the read: click here


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:28 PM

I'm sure all the Brits who read Tucker and fadac's post are REAL comfortable with the assertions that "we saved their butts in two wars" and the implication that they are genetically inferior. I guess the genetic thing was humor.England lost a generation of young men in World War 1, as did France,Germany and others. It was a vicious stalemate that the entry of the US did little to change. And if it hadn't been for the balls of the RAF in the skies over Britain, in addition to the bravery and determination of the Russian people, the US would have been a lonely island in a sea of fascism in World War 2.Nevermind that England continues to be our staunchest ally, no matter how nasty a situation we get ourselves into.

One thing they don't understand is the American distrust of government. This trait is deep in our character, and part of what distinguishes Americans as individualist achievers. The outer edge of this is what drives the militia groups and various far-right fringe groups. It's also what makes Americans latch on tightly to the second amendment, "the right of the citizenry to keep and bear arms." We don't have the long history of England, with a tradition of cycles of good and bad governments, and the sense that the country will outlive all of these cycles. To a great extent, America is an AGREEMENT between it's citizens known as the Constitution. That is why we take this issue so seriously.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:32 PM

Thanks Kat.

I guess I'm drifting from the point over here. I took a quick look at the xenophobia thread. Looks interesting. But I'm supposed to be working right now. I'm a baaaaad boy.

tomtom


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:38 PM

tomtom. I'm not much of a city boy. I only goto San Francisco under duress. Even here in the southern part of the SF bay area, there are way too many people for me.

Well I am a lifetime member of the MacFarlanes. So I guess being a bit reactionary is in the blood, eh? Well I think it was my g-g-grandmother that was forced off of her land in Scotland, so the English could raise more sheep. But that was then, this is now. To compaire London with all of the British Isles, isn't very fair to either. That's like looking at Harlem, in New York and calling all that the USA. Carring a hunting wepon there is about as silly as carrying a boom box and bopping up Mt. Shasta. Yeah, you can do it, but...

Tomtom, I don't think there is an easy answer to the questions raised here. A big part of the problem is that there are just too many people in too small a place. Every place is a bit differant. One of the tough things that folks try and do is to place their morals on other people. (Christions are real good at this.) Even if they can't follow their rules themselves.

Another good example is this...the internet. This is the very first time in the history of the human race, that there is real free speach. This very fact is driving some people crazy. Why with free speach, people might look at naked women, or talk about bombs, or be Jewish, or play banjos, or what ever the reactionarys want to jump up and down about.

Anyway, if you were here Tom, I'd buy you a good Anchor Steem beer, and play a sea song for you.

Happy Friday.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: tomtom
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:49 PM

You better watch out Fadac. I might end up in San Fran one of these days and take you up on that beer.

tomtom


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:57 PM

Tom, Anytime. If you make it a Thursday, there is a great group of Sea Chantiest (?) at a place called Quinns Light house. Great place. Penut shells on the floor. Porter Beer. Foot stomping music. Try fadac@aol.com. Cheers! Fadac


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:26 PM

Can people please remember that not all English are clearance causing, land grabbing nobs, and that it was going on in England as well, and part of being English is a tradition of revolting, which went on long after we sent some of the radicals to America and Australia. Saying "The English did..." whatever, is just as accurate as saying


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:28 PM

Sorry, pressed the wrong button. I'll leave that sentence unfinished. But I do get cross with being blamed for the misdeeds of the ruling classes when my ancestors had no way to curb them.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:31 PM

Touched a nerve eh, Penny? Is OK, we love ya anyway. We are a revolting bunch, we are. Have been sence the darn Romans came, why stop now? Loch Sloy!


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 99 - 04:46 PM

PennyS: remember, not ALL of us feel that way. There is so much more to it than a few handy phrases to spout, isn't there?

Katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:25 PM

Katlaughing, that was why I was going to dump it. There's been a lot of stuff I could have written on a number of threads I haven't, but it is very stress relieving to write and bin. I'll make a point of doing it in the wordprocessor from now on, and copying across to avoid any more problems. Gee, am I glad I didn't finish that sentence! Of course I realise that those opinions are not the only ones: one thing about Mudcat is that it is a tremendously educative place about the range of people and opinions there are in the English speaking world, and how they can get on, even when opinions differ. Even when some people try to transfer the responsibility for what they have said to the person who objects to it.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:34 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I'M disgusted. Little did I expect that a hot argument over a social issue would end up including open racist comments, comfirmed by repetition. Let's get out of here and play some music.

Chet W.


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Subject: RE: Guns, to my friends here at Mudcat
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:45 PM

Chet, That's the best idea yet. It's time to squeeze the old squeeze box.


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