Help please - vocals in time

Subject: Help please - vocals in time
From: OldFolkie
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

Hi 'Catters - help needed!

A friend of mine loves singing, has a great voice, and sings in tune, but seems to struggle with starting the verses on the right beat. Particularly as a lot of the song lines start 'on the last beat of the bar'.

She did have classical piano lessons as a child many years ago, but as she puts it, because of the teacher she had, played somewhat mechanically. That was because 'that was what the dots on the paper said', rather than having a real feel for the music, the timing, or the underlying chord structure (and probably not much real interest in the style of music she was being taught to play!)

We have tried getting her to count 1 2 & 3 & 4 & etc, and printing off the score with the melody, lyrics and the exact notes that I am playing on the guitar, but with limited success.

Now, unfortunately, frustration is setting in for her, as phrases like 'Maybe I should quit - I'm just not musical' are starting to be uttered. Needless to say, I disagree with such expressions of not being musical, and I definitley don't want her to quit!

Any tips or hints would be very welcome on how we can help her 'get the feel of the music' a bit better so that the last basic piece in the jigsaw of singing, the timing, becomes somewhat more natural for her.

Thanks

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 06:37 AM

Maybe better to let her start, then you join in?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: OldFolkie
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

Thanks Mr H.

Thanks for the good idea, food for thought.

First thoughts are that when we get to the second & subsequent verses, we're back to the same problem unless I stop playing altogether in between verses, which would probably sound somewhat strange!

Also, if I didn't play some sort of intro on the guitar, not sure she'd hit the right key....

Thanks again, will think on it - it's exactly these 'thinking outside of the box ideas' that make Mudcat the rich resource that it is!

OF

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 07:06 AM

Also, if you've recordings of the songs, if she sang along with 'em?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: matt milton
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 07:12 AM

record somone singing the song correctly, and then she can sing along to the recording in the privacy of her own home without having to worry about anyone listening in judgment.

Also, if it's the same problem each time – i.e. coming in on the last beat of the bar – then maybe your friend could try just clapping or stomping a 1-2-3-4 count, coming in with whatever word or syllable the line starts with (but no more of it) and immediately repeating over and over and over and over again.

Singing teachers, I guess, must deal with this sort of thing all the time and have exercises to improve timing and coordination - maybe she should book a lesson or two.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 07:32 AM

I still cannot get Mrs Pavane to understand this point, particularly when the first word of a phrase is OFF the beat - isn't that syncopation?

Bobby Darin songs are a particular problem, e.g Things
Like this line "I still can hear the jukebox softly playing"

She tries to put the I on the beat instead of the STILL.
But I have no idea how to get her to correct it.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 08:09 AM

Not like this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c0TgEz_Auec
then?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Grab
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 08:44 AM

My experience is that many singers don't have much idea of chord structures or listening to chord changes. More usually they'll expect a consistent tune and come in at a preset point in that tune. Vary the tune and they're stuffed. Or they'll count, and if you double the length of your solo then again they're stuffed.

How bad is it, I guess is the question? For figuring out when to come in, "mechanical" is *good*! Singing with feeling is nice, but you can't add feeling until you've got the mechanical basics. And you'll need to be 100% mechanical as the backing too.

First question - can she hear a beat? If you play the backing for something with a simple rhythm like "Wild Rover", can she clap on the beat? If she can't, you've got a *lot* of work ahead of you, and she probably needs a professional teacher who knows how to help her with that.

If she can do that, could you cue her for the singing, by giving her something to shadow - so for Wild Rover you'd start playing and then you'd sing "one-two-three-one-two-I've..."? The singing then starts on the beat for her. Then you can stop singing the count when she doesn't need it, but she'll still have it in her head.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: MMario
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM

I've got the same problem - and the only solution I've found is exaggerated nods from the musician 0r (when available) someone who can tell when it is the right time to poke me

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: OldFolkie
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 09:18 AM

Thanks for the various ideas 'catters.

Some good food for thought here...

Thanks again - Mudcat comes to the rescue as always!

Rgds

OF

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 09:30 AM

Hope you haven't closed the thread down already!

We have some rhythm challenged singers in our chorus. And occasionally I'm one, if it's a tricky song I'm not real comfortable with.

It can really help to literally rock or twist the upper body back and forth, a la Stevie Wonder. (I wonder if he does that deliberately to keep the band in tight sync with him?) If that doesn't help her feel the cues, try it again with a beer.

The more motionless and tightly wound we are, and more 'voice on a stick', the harder it is to feel the spots in the rhythm where you need to jump in.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM

Usually songs "wrap round" - if a 6/8 tune starts on beat 6 it will finish on beat 5. So can she imagine the *end* of the song just before she comes in with the start? (Dancebands do something like this all the time only out loud - playing a fragment of the tune at the start so the dancers can find the beat).

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 09:59 AM

Personally, the only times when I used to feel unsure when to begin was when I was doing Morris dancing for the first few times.

I never had probs with general dancing, but for the Morris, the Squire would call out the commands.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Newport Boy
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:17 AM

Depending on how comfortable she is with words and poetry. Forget the music to start with, and concentrate on the rhythm of the words, eg:

When first unto this count-ry
A stran-ger I came

Go through it a few times, then let her sing it to the tune. Let her sing a verse or two, then sneakily join in with the accompaniment on the first stressed beat. Keep the accompaniment in the background.

Alternatively, let her learn a song as:

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-When first ....

I've used both these methods in choirs with non-readers of music.

Phil

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:47 PM

Lots of great ideas - and also maybe it might be good to think longterm? seems that the root problem is an underdeveloped (and/or unconfident) sense of rhythm, so she may want to find a way of regularly working on this in an intuitive way, then she'll gradually start to get better at it and more confident herself, needing fewer props and help from others.

I don't really have the mechanics, so have to rely both on my own sense of rhythm and on really listening to what the guitarist (in my case) is doing to know when to come in, both at the song start and after an instrumental solo bit. Once you know the song really well, that'll come.

And using your body (rocking, tapping, swaying) to pick up rhythms really does help.

Might be worth even doing a hand-drumming class for a while, to learn about and get used to rhythms, both intuitively and mechanically. Don't worry about results, just "be" in the rhythms.

It's not just the brain that learns - the body does too, without us even realising it sometimes.

Sue

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM

May sound silly, but being in a marching band does wonders for developing a consciouness of rhythm. Have her try walking in time to the singing?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:47 PM

Give her a skipping rope.
That's what I use and it works really well for me.
Except for the time I got tangled up with the bass player.


Maybe give her an egg shaker or some other quiet percussion instrument to help her become part of the music.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Bee
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM

Timid suggestion from an amateur who sings a lot...

A couple of times when much younger I had this problem. It was related to performance nerves (and an audience of one is plenty to start this up), and I liken it to 'jumping in' when joining a skipping rope game, where nervousness about missing causes you to freeze up on gauging the right moment to 'jump'. Maybe some relaxation techniques would help her - or s good stiff drink!

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: BB
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM

I'd been wondering when someone would come in with a suggestion about the speech rhythm of the words, so well done, Newport Boy! (Pity you then suggested a song in waltz time, i.e. 3/4, but then counted it out in 4/4! :-))

That feel for the music, particularly in song, really should come from the underlying rhythm of the words, and if initially she can exaggerate that first beat of the bar with the words, and to a slightly lesser extent the 2nd beat of a 4/4 tune and the 4th beat of a 6/8 tune, but again with the spoken rhythm of the words, she should gradually be able to get it. As she has in the past read music, she should understand what 3/4, 4/4 and 6/8 (the most common time signatures) are. But she must have had a crap music teacher all those years ago if she wasn't taught about accentuating those beats!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: MMario
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:41 PM

You can accentuate beats correctly without being able to know when to **START** singing in the intro.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 06:47 PM

Dance

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 08:47 PM

The important things is to stay focused on what can be achieved. There are many ways to work on this problem but the most important thing is a willingness to work, and to understand that members of your singing group come in with a difference life experience with regard to music.

I have members of my group who can explain in words what I should do; I find it more helpful when they demonstrate what I should do. And sometimes I simply explain to them what they should do. But at times I'm frankly puzzled.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,Mags
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 11:08 PM

Um, as a professional singer, I am perfectly capable of both reading music, understanding chord structures and changes, varying the tune, adjusting to key changes and broken strings, improvising, making up harmonies as I learn a song and a variety of other things expected of a professional musician.

I gently suggest that you do not have a singer on your hands, you have someone with a nice voice. I would suggest you get a singer.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Newport Boy
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM

Barbara

I'd been wondering when someone would come in with a suggestion about the speech rhythm of the words, so well done, Newport Boy! (Pity you then suggested a song in waltz time, i.e. 3/4, but then counted it out in 4/4! :-))

On this list, you should know that there's more than one version of a song. Mine's in 4/4 :-)

Phil

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: BB
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 08:41 AM

Phil, I'm intrigued. (Apologies too.) I must admit that I was going on the usual version of the song.

Barbara x

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 10:47 AM

Time signature can be altered. Most do "Wild Mountain Thyme" in 3/4 but there was an electric version of it in 4/4 used by the Scottish Tourist Board for a while and I can now hear it no other way.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 11:45 AM

Why doesn't she just sing unaccompanied?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 12:37 PM

Mag wrote:

Um, as a professional singer, I am perfectly capable of both reading music, understanding chord structures and changes, varying the tune, adjusting to key changes and broken strings, improvising, making up harmonies as I learn a song and a variety of other things expected of a professional musician.

I gently suggest that you do not have a singer on your hands, you have someone with a nice voice. I would suggest you get a singer.

I don't see how the second statement necessarily follows from the first, especially as there is nothing I can see in the original post that seems to suggest what you are implying by your final sentence.

The original post seemed to be more concerned with helping someone overcome a problem in their singing and was asking for suggestions on how to deal with it in a sympathetic way.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 12:48 PM

Don't think it says anywhere she's aiming to be a "professional" singer right now, or even a singer in a band? sounds to me like she's having a go at improving her skills, with some good support from a friend/friends, and that this is her next step on her singer path.

I would gently suggest that professional singers were once non-professional singers; that all singers and bands are at different stages on their musical paths; and that you don't have to be professional to be a good singer.

My own aim is to be the best singer I can be, not necessarily a professional one.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: sciencegeek
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

I was taken back a bit by the "get a real singer" comment... the goal that I saw was the desire to help a friend sing better - not form a band.

I maintain that anyone with a functional set of vocal chords can sing... maybe not well, but they have something to work with. Then the goal is to start singing better to the limits of their ability.

Some of the most painful renditions of traditional music that I have listened to were performed by highly trained, professional singers... who had no clue about the beauty of the song. All the notes were there, but the soul was nowhere to be found.

A question for the original poster - can this individual sing the song "correctly" on her own? If the only "problem" is joining in on the correct beat, then practicing to a recording may be the best option to start with.

The way to get to Carnegie Hall. Practice, practice, practice. lol

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Cindy
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:11 PM

Try identifying the stress patterns of words. Welsh usually stresses the last but one syllable of a word hence AberYSTwyth or LLanDUDno. Try stressing English place names like that BirmINGham or ManCHESTer. Doesn't work because most English words stress first syllable or second if there's a prefix. This is getting boring but I think once you realise the stress pattern of language it gets easier. Above all don't let your friend give up. If she has a nice voice she should carry on singing. It doesn't matter if things something goes wrong. Music is to enjoy.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 02:37 PM

Science and Cindy - hear, hear. And agree about the soulless folk singers....

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Grab
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 03:22 PM

Mags, you're a trained musician whose instrument happens to be their voice. :-) Unlike playing an instrument, anyone can sing without any barrier to entry.

The blessing and curse of singing is that the quality of voice is preset at birth, like any physical ability. From that baseline, some significant improvement is possible through good technique, which does really make a difference. But "someone with a nice voice" will inevitably outperform someone who hasn't in the quality stakes, no matter how hard the person without a nice voice tries.

I speak as someone who, through three years of formal lessons and four years of practise with a band, has just about got his voice to the level of "not unpleasant". The problem isn't holding pitch or range, it's simply whether your voice has a nice tone or not. If you were born with a voice that hasn't got that tone, the fact that you have two-and-a-half octaves of range, ears like a hawk and musical theory spouting from every orifice is immaterial.

So if you want a good singer for a band, find someone with a nice voice and coach them on the musicianship side. You can't get there by taking a musician and coaching them on the voice side.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Janie
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

OldFolkie - Is there some reason why simply giving her a cue won't take care of it A la MMario's suggestion?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 04:37 PM

Jeez, Mags, lighten up. There's a human dimension involved here, ya know?? I'm glad you have such a long list of been-there-done-thats, but just about everybody I've ever worked with (plus myself) has had a good set of capabilities balanced by a couple real blind spots. Not to mention the fact that "just get a singer" is not all that easy. I have a number of really polished acquaintances whom I would love to have with my group. They're so busy--precisely because they are very accomplished--that it's impossible. So you take what you've got and you try to make it better.

CC

PS. I had a fiddler like that. He wanted me to "just give him a nod." I found that awkward, given our position on stage. Is there another person in the group who can do some sort of instrumental run-up to where she enters?

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 07:18 PM

Sounds to me like you have a "singer" there, all she needs is a bit of practise and she can become a full fledged "Diva" and then you are really in the mire.
Good Luck with all of the above "positive" suggestions, and don't give up on her, or worse, let her give up on herself, JohnB

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,Kaleea, on a pal's puter
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

How about couple of suggestions you might try from a geezerly retired music teacher? When I was teaching in the classroom, directing school bands & choral ensembles, church choirs, jammin with friends & rehearsing for performances with groups of all kinds over the years & now, this has been a common problem. Way back in Music School, we were taught in conducting classes to breathe in on the beat before the pick up note. I actually breathe in a long breath, just loud enough to be heard by the group, which takes up the entire beat.
For example, if they begin on the 4th beat, then breathe in on the 3rd beat:
1-2-3-4-1-2-breathe SING
   If the pick up note is an eighth note, I breathe in a quick breath on the eighth note before the pick up note:
                                 (3       &    4    &)
[1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & [1 & 2 & breathe sing

I have always done this with all musicians-whether vocalists or instrumentalists, adults or children. Even though a string band or ensemble does not need to breathe in before the first note, it works as a small reminder of when to come in. (Sometimes a church choir member or two would gently tease me about asthma or heavy breathing now & then, but it works quite well.)

Another thing I do, especially when rehearsing with a group of amateur musicians, is to have them count outloud with me one full measure before the measure when they come in. For example, if they come in on the 4th beat we count:
"[1-2-3-4-[1-2-3! Oh [beau--ti-ful for [spa--cious skies . . ."

When called upon to lead rehearsals for local traditional music organizations, they are usually working people who like to play dulcimers, mandolins, autoharps, etc. for fun. They are normally amateurs & many do not read music at all & use tablature. They can still get accustomed to counting in this manner, & those with an "ear" for music can be called upon to play the introduction for tunes. Then, one or two persons don't have to play the intros for all the tunes in all the rehearsals & performances. Overtime, almost everybody can learn to count like this, & teach new members who come into the organization.
If we all practice counting outloud like this, then we can reduce it to whispering over time, & still do it on stage quietly. If it is heard softly over mics, so what? I've been to many concerts of professional groups where one or more of them gives the count off in this manner.   We might even recall recordings with a verbal count off, like the Beatles, & Louis Armstrong, & Count Basie, & Spike Jones, & Arthur Fiedler, as well as many other professionals.
No need to single out any one person(s) as having less or more ability than others, be matter of fact about it, & the group will be the better for it.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:08 PM

There ya go. Hard to jump in on time when you use up your first beat taking and breath and getting ready.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: OldFolkie
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

Thanks for all of the superb positive suggestions.

To use an expression from my long-ago mis-spent youth, I'm gobsmacked by the response! Such a variety of ideas leave me struggling for words. I wish I had time and space to respond to each of you individually, but I haven't, so I hope you will all accept this somewhat rambling footnote in an attempt to express how I feel at this moment.

And particulary thanks to all who have said not to let her give up at any cost!

I know she feels the songs.

Like me, the words mean something to her.

They're not just "tunes that she happens to like".

Moreover, she wants to sing.

For that reason, I'm definitely not going to give up on her. I will admit that as teacher material I'm probably near the bottom of the pile, but what I do have is 110% belief in her, and coupled with the above help from all of you, I'm even more convinced that we can make it work for her.

Although unfortunately we're not going to have time to really work together for the next 3 weeks due to her having other very heavy (unfortunately non-singing!) commitments, trust me when I say we're going to work through all the ideas until we find one or more that helps to develop her abilities and hence build her esteem as a performer.

From the absolute wealth of experience and superb intentions that have gone into the various ideas, I'm sure we'll find something that gives her one of those 'lightbulb moments' when it will 'click into place', and I will see that big beaming smile on her face knowing that she has finally overcome what has been the only real problem in us working together on songs that we both love.....

I will be lucky, in that, that smile will be my reward, and trust me when I say athta at that moment, there will be no one alive on this planet happier than me. But, it should really be a reward for all of you 'Catters who have contributed to this thread. So I hope to be able to share it with you all (in words at least!) when it happens. Give me a few weeks, and I'll get back to you all to let you know how we're doing. So, watch this space.... it may be relatively blank for say 4 or 5 or 6 weeks but I'll be back....

I'm about to send her a link to this thread...

With very sincere thanks

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Let me enter the minority view here. Are you sure the problem is with HER? There are hundreds of songs from hymns to rock which start with a pick-up beat. She's heard them all her life. How can she fail to do it?

For one thing, make sure you accompanists aren't ritarding the ends of verses while she's counting regularly.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: DebC
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:19 AM

I know a woman who could not sing to a click track for recording. After a really frustrating time, she said give me a week....

She came back a week later and she could follow the click exactly.

Whst did she do? She got a metronome.

Debra
www.DebraCowan.com

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: OldFolkie
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:51 AM

She has just looked at the thread - response was:

"Amazing! So many helpful people out there."

I think you have all just given her a really big dose of hope, and rebuilt her faith in the community of music and folk in particular!

Thanks again.

OF

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM

I will admit that as teacher material I'm probably near the bottom of the pile, but what I do have is 110% belief in her

That statement shows you have the most important quality of all in a good teacher - Belief in your students. Have that and anyone prepared to put in the necessary effort can make a good teacher.

It was my No. 1 guiding principle in my teaching career.

Subject: RE: Help please - vocals in time
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

Has one of you tried singing along with her a few times? Considering how easily people learn tricky songs off the radio and in camp, that seems like a promising approach.