BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:38 AM

This one although difficult tom watch says a lot as well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pCuUPLs2tc

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:25 AM

Yeh Jackgot to mention the bears.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:22 AM

killed humanely?

polar bear vs seal.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:18 AM

Good points Sandy. Perhaps the EU should protest this.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:06 AM

Amen to that carol !

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:05 AM

I've just been reading through this post. I consider myself both an animal lover and a lover of nature. I also observe nature and realize that it is inherently cruel even without any input from mankind. Every living thing must die by one means or another and that is as true for a seal as any other species. It may die fom a club blow or a gunshot and we may call that cruel but in it's own environment it will probably not die of old age but in an even crueler way. It will perhaps die from an attack from higher on the food chain such as by a killer whale or a shark. It is even more likely to drown as shifting ice or dipping temperature closes it's breathing hole. It also may starve if it can't find fish. Many species compete for fish including man. As fish grew more scarce man was able to catch even more because new sonar technology made them easier to locate. Bottom drag trawls scooped them up faster but destroyed the fishes food supply on the bottom. While man must bear the blame more than blame is needed to solve the problem. Bottom feeding fish such as cod and haddock must be allowed to re-generate the species before they become extinct. Bottom feeders are the easiest target for seals because they are slower swimmers than midwater and surface feeders. For this reason the seal stock must be reduced for the fish stock to re-establish itself.
I earlier mentioned about how cruel nature itself is and anyone who has watched a hawk snuff out the life of a sparrow or a cat toy with a mouse must understand this. A seal will bite off the tail of a fish so that it can no longer swim when they attack a large school. This will leave the fish still alive for maybe days, unable to move but available when it is needed. The law of the jungle prevails as much in the ocean as anywhere else. The codfish may not be as pretty or cuddly as a baby seal but it's final agony may be even greater.
As for non meat eating humans think about this before you pat your backs too hard: For every acre of ground ploughed many birds, mice, snakes, earthworms, insects, and other ground dwelling creatures lives will be lost. On the other hand a cow may be only one life and feed as many as an acre of ploughed ground. The truth is that we can only survive on this planet by killing something else and the seal hunt, although bloody, may be no more cruel than other fates.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:55 PM

I think it should be noted that the reason you are under the impression that the seal meat is not eaten, Lonesome EJ (and that white coats are being hunted and killed with clubs), is because people have been lying to you. They are lying to you because they don't really give a shit about the seals. They also don't give a shit about people. They only care about the money and attention they get from telling people lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:44 PM

And good for him and I hope he has a good harvest, JtS.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:18 PM

My father has a commercial license. He has had special training on how to kill humanely. He will be hunting from an open boat at least 500 miles from the front (where the pups are whelped). He will be hunting seals mature enough to have swum and fed themselves for that distance, and as Carol has said. He'll be either eating or sharing every part of the animal that's fit to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Beer
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:06 PM

Peace, you only know if you have a true head soup is if you see the eyeballs floating.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:05 PM

Baby harp seal. Lots cuter than the adult.

Here's an alligator snapping turtle, which isn't cute at all -- but the World Wildlife Foundation lists it as one of the most endangered species on Earth. I haven't seen any posters or tee shirts or things saying "Save The Alligator Snapping Turtle."

Maybe that's because they're not especially cute, even as babies.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:03 PM

The best is cod filets. Caught that day, coated in flour and fried in butter. MMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:01 PM

Actually, the best of the best is fish head soup. Love that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:00 PM

How about partridgeberry jam and toutons ... great way to start the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:59 PM

Adult harp seal.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Bee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:49 PM

Beer: eat the geese in the fall, when they are fat and tasty. Now there's a hunt I'd like closed: the winter goose hunt - driest, skinniest, worst tasting geese ever. We get gifted with geese and ducks after every season, and I really hate the winter ones - husband likes them, so I cook 'em, but the ducks taste of old fish and the geese of the muddy eelgrass they eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Beer
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

Seal Flipper Pie. Now that is a treat to be had. Damn near as good a Partridge Berry pie.
But what the hell are we going to do about all tha Canadian geese that are destroying the tundra?
Beer (adrien)

Well said Gnu
Well said Bee

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:26 PM

dat was me

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:25 PM

Cheeks r OK but tongues r better. Cheeks r boney and ya gotta work too hard to get a decnt bit a meat out of em.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:23 PM

I have no objections to seal protesters, on principle, as long as they are vegetarians who wear birch bark clothing who ride to the front on ponies rescued from the glue factory. But the ones who fly there and eat steak in their fancy hotels, need to be protesting closer to home.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:20 PM

Cheeks, my son, cod cheeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:16 PM

Number 6

You and me both. Cod tongues, prepared right are tender tasty wonderful food. But I don't like seal flippers. They remind me of stringy beef soaked in cod liver oil. The rest of my family back home love them. There is no accounting for taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:09 PM

Rapaire ... your definitely realistic.

Carol and Jack ... says it all ... and if anyone can put the answer to this it is Jack.

seal flipper pie ... my stepfather used to eat that ... had it shipped from his family up in Twillingate .... back then I could eat anything, even cod tongues, but I passed on that flipper pie. In fact my stepfather used to go out with his grandfather when he was 14 to hunt seals ... they needed for food.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Bee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:05 PM

Of course the seal hunt is an ugly business - like all killing of animals for our use. But, as is endlessly pointed out, the seals are thriving, they are killed as humanely as any hunted animal and arguably more humanely than cattle, sheep and pigs. Given humans are about their only predator (they are predators themselves), a managed hunt has actually increased their numbers - humans are part of the ecology, you know, and in this instance, apparently a useful part.

I cannot buy the 'it's only for their hides, so it's wrong' argument. Certainly some of the meat's eaten, since I'm able to buy commercially prepared seal pie at the Newfoundland store in town. But even so - I wore sealskin boots as a child, as did many other children, because they were warm, waterproof and cheap. There's a lot to be said for wearing fur and hide in extreme climates, and humans have done so since the Stone Age.

Those of you who think no harm is done to animals in the production of other clothing are blind. Cotton is the biggest water waster per pound of all agricultural products, and second only to cattle in habitat destruction - check the WWF site for the figures. Synthetics require an investment of massive quantities of fossil fuel. In fact, billions of small mammals, birds and reptiles are horribly slaughtered every year by the processes of ploughing, harrowing, tilling, weed and insect control, and harvesting grains and vegetables. I haven't seen a Bobolink since NS farmers started doing a second hay harvest - they are field nesters, or were.

And to be clear, I don't mind people objecting to the seal hunt, provided they don't become what I've seen lately. Paul Watson basically calling the death of four sealers a good thing. Blog comments I won't link to vilifying sealers and their families with injury ("how would you like it if I came to your home and crushed your baby's skull" was one anti-sealer's rant). Loyal posters at Democratic Underground (supposedly the bastion of political righteousness, sweetness, and light) jeering at the drownings, basically saying 'more of them should drown, they deserve it'.

Rich celebrities using the seals as publicity boosters for themselves. A famous anti-sealer and a famous movie star walking the waterfront in the Magdalene Islands, the former pointing to ship after ship and loudly boasting "I put that one out of business, and that one, and that one...", at a time when there was no work to be had for those people in that isolated place at all. Then making hay of the fact the local people got angry with them. And the continual, unending blatant lies told by the anti sealers: white coats haven't been hunted for twenty five years, for god sake!

I cannot respect this particular bandwagon.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:52 PM

Am I to understand that Ron Davies' and EJ's positions would be changed if it were confirmed them that the Seals were used for meat.

Good. My family has been hunting seals for at least five generations, and if you want it. I can get my grandmother's recipe for Seal Flipper Pie from my dad and send it to y'all. And Yes Ron and EJ we eat Harp seals. Harp seals are the species that are most abundant. They are also the best source of oil and being large blubbery, slow moving, relatively stupid seals, they are the easiest to kill humanely

There are several good reasons for the seal hunt that have come to light in recent times. Seal meat is more environmentally friendly than Beef or Pork, huge amounts grain is not diverted to fatten them. They do not produce huge amounts of methane as cattle do. And since a growing or adult harp seal eats about 1,500 pounds of fish per year, killing the maximum allowed by quota would free up at least 100,000,000 pounds of fish for human consumption.

If you want to give Newfoundlanders an economic chance in life, let them harvest seals to 1970's levels of about 2,000,000 instead of the present 6,000,0000 - 8,000,0000
That would, conservatively, free up in the order of 3 billion pounds of high quality fish protein for a hungry world. It would lower the price of biodiesel and ethonol and hugely reduce the amount of beef methane.   

This protest has been going on for a long time and in its present form it has nothing to do with the inhumane treatment of animals. It has everything to do with Green Peace and FFAW fundraising. Harp seal pups are cute and they make great posters.

The Newfoundland seal hunt of present day is as humane as the harvesting of any animal, more humane than the raising and harvesting of beef and leather.

The animal is eaten, the pelt is made into leather ad/or fur. The oil is harvested as a medicine and a dietary supplement.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:47 PM

BTW, for those who don't know how it works (coincidentally, I was just talking with my father-in-law about this earlier this evening), the people who go out for the hunt get paid, but they also get to keep the carcasses (after the fur is removed from them, as well as some of the fat that is used for the omega3 oil). So it's not just money they're going out for. They're also going out for food. And the seals aren't just being used for fur, they're also being used for food and for the omega3 oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:26 PM

Are you a vegetarian, Lonesome EJ? If not, you are being incredibly hypocritical with your attitude. The seal hunt, because of the scrutiny it receives from the media and animal rights protesters, is a hell of a lot more humane than the raising and processing of animals for food in the US.

I'm a vegetarian myself (more than 37 years), but I'm not going to condemn the seal hunt any more than I will the practice of eating meat.    My father-in-law is going out for the hunt in a few days. He'll be doing it because he enjoys eating seal meat. Unless you have sworn off eating any kind of meat that you like because of the inhumane methods of raising and slaughtering them, you're really not in a position to criticize those who hunt and eat seals.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:24 PM

I have long thought, and believe, that if you want to eat meat -- any meat -- you should be willing and able to kill, butcher, and preserve it yourself. Ditto for vegetables and grains; and the same is true for fur -- you should be willing to do the bloody work involved as well as revel in the glamour.

At heart I've a very primitive person...or a realistic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:50 PM

"The killing floor is an ugly place"

That's one thing that hasn't changed ... instead of pointing fingers one must look in their own back yard.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:44 PM

The killing floor is an ugly place.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:40 PM

At one time humans required fur to keep warm ... at one time humans required meat for protein.

Now furs are for fashion ... meat is for our own satisfaction of flavour ... both are not required for survival in this day and age. can one argue otherwise?

Time changes.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: meself
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:34 PM

"LEJ's question should be also addressed--is there no other occupation available to Newfoundlanders which would bring comparable income?"

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:22 PM

" people wearing fur, people eating hamburgers" parallel is specious. As far as I know, nobody on Mudcat is trying to stop all fur-wearing--though an argument can be made there are other alternatives.

The issue is the slaughter of harp seals--specifically harp seals only--for the "beautification" of certain people who have lots of alternatives for keeping warm. Or don't you think these alternatives exist?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:17 PM

LEJ asks a good question. Alternatives to fur have been around for a long time.

The people of Newfoundland--and to a similar degree the fishers of NS and NB have been hit by it all, too, Right now the biggest city in Newfoundland is Ft McMurray. There are real people who have been hit by the excesses of various industries--fisheries being one of them. They've (many countries using their draggers and factory ships)taken too much cod and that fishery died. Others will follow. And the people will fall deepr and deeper into poverty, no offense to my eastern friends. When FPI fell, so did many of my friends. This is about human lives/families/futures. Hibernia will help the oil company and provide some jobs, but not enough and too late. So I have no answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

People eating hamburgers, people wearing furs ... what's the difference? ... anyway, that's what I said Ron, instead of putting energy and $money$ to protest the seal hunt, or migrating these people to other parts of the country and destroying a unique culture that is part of Canada, and part of our world how about putting all that effort into finding a viable solution for these people to compete and make a living in this global economy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:09 PM

Harp seals are the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

I deliberately used the generic term "seal."

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:05 PM

Harp seals are not being killed for food, unless you have information that supports that. It is not necessary for harp seal fur to be worn by people. It's supply and demand--and the demand is by people who want to wear harp seal fur for aesthetic reasons--only. Sorry, that does not justify killing the seals.

Now, how about LEJ's question about alternatives?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM

Seal has been eaten for centuries by Arctic peoples. We feel food sources to which we are not accustomed are somehow "lower" or "unclean." As a result we are less well-fed than our ancestors were!

Marmot, groundhog, hamster, guinea pig, snake, seal, whale, lion, elephant, giraffe, rat, squirrel, rabbit, wild duck, gnu, gazelle, bison, buffalo, pronghorn, porcupine, marten, cougar, dog, cat, and a lot of other things are eaten around the world -- even (sorry Chongo!) chimpanzee.

To list them does not make me want to run out and eat them (although I have eaten some on the above list). But I can't condemn a culture that raises guinea pigs for food any more than I can condemn one that raises potatoes.

After all, in the long run we humans, the top of the food chain (usually), the paragon of animals, the glory of the world, are eventually eaten by our own intestinal flora and fauna and become nutrients for plants, which are eaten by herbivores....

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

The hunt will kill about a quarter million seals. Global warming will kill lots more than that.

As a btw, I eat very little meat of any sort. Maybe a pound and a half a month. That's aside from eggs and milk at times. Live mostly on grains. As a kid I trapped muskrat for fur. As an adult I help get people out car wrecks/fires. I no longer hunt or trap, but if it becomes necessary I will. And no, I don't know that there is a non-cruel way to kill things. Death is cruel. But then, so is life.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:42 PM

"The fisheries department estimated the total harp seal population to be 5.9 million in 2004, the last time it conducted a survey. The government says there were about 1.8 million seals in the 1970s, and the population rebounded after Canada started managing the hunts."

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:19 PM

It's not reasonable to expect people to completely give up meat--though some obviously have. My understanding is that the main reason for killing the seals is that their fur looks good on certain people--and they are willing to pay to do that. If there is any other reason, we should hear it. And it seems that those people who wear that seal fur could rather easily wear something else---it is not analogous to giving up meat.

If this is so, LEJ's question should be also addressed--is there no other occupation available to Newfoundlanders which would bring comparable income?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:16 PM

LEJ ... your question on what Canada is doing to sustain tis culture in Newfoundland, so they don't have to go out on the seal hunt ... I'd say no, not enough. As mentioned, Employment Canada gives financial incentive for these people to migrate to the areas of canada where they can find employment ... notably Toronto and Fort MacMurray ... a whole way of live is disappearing due to this ... most, would certainly rather stay in these communities.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:12 PM

cattle, hogs = food

I eat food and I certainly don't eat cattle and hogs ... people can do without, at least the volume consumed of these animals ... not having the land required to feed beef especially could be put to more use in the growing of crops that can be better dispersed in feeding the hungry world.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:10 PM

Read your post. No need to reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:03 PM

"And Peace, the opposition HAS been around since the efforts to save whales at sea underwent the same sort of arguments, and the Greenpeace inflatables underwent the same sort of attacks. Some progress has been made there."

I was a Greenpeace member/supporter in those times. I wrote letters. Lots of letters. I am not unaware of the situation. But please understand: I ceased having anything to do with Greenpeace when they issued an ad and words regarding the 'Oka Crisis'--after a police officer was shot to death. They supported the side that did the shooting.

And the question Bill raised about slaughter houses--what has Greenpeace to say about that? And you--what do you say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:01 PM

Cattle, Hogs= Food
Seals= Parka fur

No, I would really like to hear about the people who need to do this and why. There are no other employment avenues in Newfoundland? Canada owes a living to the remnants of an archaic and undesired industry? Are they not already supporting them for all intents and purposes?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:55 PM

BTW .... clubbing has been outlawed in the seal hunt ... they use a rigle now days. Sorta like the shot at the back of the head used to but down a bovine.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:52 PM

LEJ ... maybe we Canadians are better informed on the situation of these people and culture of Newfoundland.

450,000 seals is a very small number as compared to the cattle and hogs butchered every year so some people can eat a Big Mac.

Visit your local abbatroir ... you might just pass on the next lunch invite to Burger King.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Escalates Seal Slaughter Defense
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:49 PM

And Peace, the opposition HAS been around since the efforts to save whales at sea underwent the same sort of arguments, and the Greenpeace inflatables underwent the same sort of attacks. Some progress has been made there.
Canada wants to up the seal "harvest" since more humane ways of killing the seals have been found, like opening the femoral after they're stunned with the club. Progress?