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Tight Folkies
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM This was 8am. They weren't serving beer. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Mr Happy Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:40 AM ...................& some venue's beer is horrible! |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Joe Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:33 AM Even when meeting in my local before going to a session or whatever, I always buy a drink, even if it is a half of coke. To take your own drinks to a pub, as in this case, is just rude. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM Because he was offering a service to the festival free of charge. Jesus, is it really too much to expect for people to buy a cup of coffee or tea or a bottle of water? The fact that there's so much 'defence' of the skinflints on this thread simply enhances what I originally said. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Mr Happy Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM Its not that I object to paying per se, but I don쳌ft want to pay for events that I쳌fm not going to attend. Some of the better festivals I쳌fve attended allowed for 쳌epay on the door쳌f arrangements for camping, concerts, workshops etc, hence widening customers choices. I think it entirely fair that those who camp & use the site쳌fs facilities should pay for their stay. I feel that the thread initiator is confusing stinginess with people쳌fs economic constraints for whatever reason. Someone쳌fs mentioned people taking their own drinks to pubs etc. It쳌fs frequently been my experience at fests, that landlords themselves often hike up their prices when such an event is happening. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: John MacKenzie Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM If they are "notoriously tight fisted", why did the man offer to open up? G |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: gnomad Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:50 AM I don't feel that folkies as a whole deserve the reputation which MaxwellSH ascribes to them, though we have a percentage of skinflints just the same as any other group. Some have few resources and husband them with remarkable zeal, others are relatively well-off (some of these are in that position through a lifetime of careful resource-guarding, others through hard work) some indeed have few resources but a generous hand; basically we include all sorts. What does distinguish the folk crowd from the general run of holidaymaker is different priorities. We will spend to see performances by artists we like, but spend little in discotheques. Musical instruments probably don't feature in the basket of commodities regarded as essential living expenses for inflation calculations, but they feature heavily in many a folky's expenditure. Coming to Whitby we don't spend highly on plastic souvenirs, tattoos, goth memorabilia or donkey rides, these are not why we come to folk week. However we do sell out all forms of accomodation in the town year after year, the restaurant and pub trade do some of their best business of the year, shops selling certain food, fashion, and trinket lines do well. I came to the town as a folk week punter for many years, so know it well from that angle. Now that I live here, working in a tourist trade, I see the other side as well. Our business does relatively poorly out of the folk crowd (boat trips use up time you could spend singing, dancing or [yes] drinking) but I have been surprised when talking to passengers how many of them deliberately make a visit during folk week simply to take in the festival atmosphere and street entertainment. These people spend on the same things that most trippers do, but they come because of the folkies, a similar thing applies in Goth week. With regard to MSH's bar-owning friend, I am sorry that his venture was not a success. I would suggest that 8.00 am was an unlikely time to expect to be selling significant amounts of food and drink (particularly to singers and dancers) but that does not excuse people bringing their own if the deal was that the premises were provided on the basis described, and the deal had been communicated to participants. I would hope that the staff laid on got on with the other myriad jobs which need doing in any bar, so their employment should not have been a complete loss, though clearly not as profitable as could be hoped. Perhaps a different deal with the organisers next time? |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM some of whom are clearly well off while others struggle to make ends meet. It just seems to me that little goodwill is likely to be engendered by accusations of tightfistedness when its root cause might be a basic shortage of funds. I can see the other side on the food issue. Though this point is about movie theaters, not restaurants. If the UK is at all similar to the US, they charge an admission of several dollars then hope to gouge on the food prices to make more profit. But the snacks are the prohibitive part of the experience, so we would stick a couple of candy bars and a can of pop in a pocket and make do, if we wanted to eat. (Who needs all of that junk food, anyway, it's not good for you!) In a different venue, many years ago where I worked in an office downtown, I was walking out of the building with my lunch in a bag when I ran into an old friend who I hadn't seen for a long time. He was going to a restaurant for lunch and I didn't have the budget that day and had already packed one. We walked over to where he was going to eat and he ordered and I ate my sandwich. The waitress came over and said they don't allow outside food in so I had to put my lunch away and sit and watch my freind eat because I couldn't order anything. Both the waitress and I were embarrassed as she realized I wasn't ordering something else, but there was nothing I could do about it. They had a prosperous restaurant and I wasn't going to break the bank by discreetly eating a sandwich. As I recall, I was so broke all I had was my bus fare, so I couldn't even order a drink. Those were the days, eh? The practice of going into a venue that operates on a shoe string and trying to get something for nothing is different. I've been to a fair number of places that charge a cover charge during certain hours of the evening, because they know the patrons who are coming in are there to see the performer. I feel obligated to buy something to drink, but when I pay several dollars for the cover I don't feel bad about nursing it along. (Especially if it is yet another establishment that is going to charge a cover but doesn't have the courtesy to ban the smokers so I can sit there comfortably and listen. All it takes is one smoker in a modest sized room to pollute the place for everyone else, including the performers who are putting their lungs to good use.) People can tell the nature of a business when they walk in, and some people need to decide that if they're committing the time to the musical outing they should commit some funds, also. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,The Input Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM LOL! |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: theleveller Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM Er, the caravan, that is, not Eliza! |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: theleveller Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:13 AM "And just look at the caravans" Please don't look at mine - it's over 20 years' old and has done more festivals than Eliza Carthy. Must wash off the green slime before Ryedale! |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Mr Red Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:03 AM Folkies, by nature, tend toward the less well heeled end of the financial spectrum. Not all. One could argue they are rich in talent and musical diligence but I quivocate. And just look at the caravans and tents and cars. Not all are less well heeled. But it is infra-dig to bragg, as a folkie, how filthy are your riches - so the ones you hear are those that don't have much money. They either steward (would the angry mob here present kindly temper their vituperation with thankyous). Or the impecunious go to small, do-it yourself type festivals, that the angry mob might find too tame. Different strokes for different folks. Let's face it, angry mob is a tradition too. But not very folkie. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:28 AM The cheapest and the mediocre, folkies have no class - other than their obsession with being working class!!! |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM I did say that I was generalising leveller. Why do people still queue at The Magpie to sit down? The takeaway next door is equally as good and far, far quicker. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: theleveller Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:14 AM Tight? You must be joking! I spent most of my time at Whitby last year browsing round the stalls. Ended up buying several books from Fokliedave (I presume it was you - Helperby Fiddler is wonderful!), a new Fyld cittern for me and a Buchanan mandolin and a whistle and a wonderful hand-made butterfly necklace for mrsleveller - not to mention all the fish and chips from The Magpie. I reckon I could have had a fortnight in the Bahamas for that money - it would have been a damn sight warmer! the(bankrupt)leveller |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM I dread to think madam! I nearly had to avert my eyes. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Liz the Squeak Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:46 AM thank you in kind.... a pint or two, a bunch of flowers, box of chocolates, even a nice thank you card... what did YOU think I meant?! :D LTS |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Mick Woods Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM From what I remember of my time working in the lesisure industry. It is against the law to drink booze that was purchased at an "off Licence" retailer in an "On Licence" bar. BYO and corkage usually only apply to an "Unlicenced" premises. It coukld have changed I'm not sure. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:42 AM I agree that the lack of respect is universal but that doesn't make it right! My concern, in this instance, is that it's from people that should probably know better. But my point Liz is that this is something that I have come across often. Again, simply ask many traders around Whitby during folk week whether or not they notice a significant increase in takings. Again, that doesn't go for the pubs. As for a 'thank you in kind'! What are you suggesting Liz? :-) |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Liz the Squeak Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:27 AM The lack of respect is universal and it's unfair to single folkies out as being tight with it. There are many more folkies and people out there who work bloody hard to pass accurate information and make sure that everyone who contributes gets a thank you - whether verbally, financially or in kind. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:23 AM Have you been to Saltburn at Christmas or New Year BH? There's more life down at the cemetary. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:21 AM I can now confirm, having just spoken to him , that he DID tell them that that was the deal and that they were responsible for telling their groups. He just told me also that, not only did they not buy anything, but they never thanked him or his staff either. He also confirmed that it won't be happening again unless the committee arrange it. I reiterate that so many people in folk music are tight-fisted. It's not always about lack of cash, it's often about lack of respect. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:18 AM "Folkies during Whitby folk week are notoriously tight-fisted, ask any local trader. Personally, I find this at most festivals that I go to across the country too. Unless, of course it's spent on beer!" True about the beer. A landlady in Saltburn told me she makes more money over the folk festival weekend than the Xmas & New Year period combined. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Liz the Squeak Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:13 AM "Now, I assume that those people went back to those groups and said "right, the deal is that we can use it as long as we buy some drinks and food". It was a pre-condition of the deal" Well, there you go... you ASSUME - and we know what that makes... Sometimes the message gets garbled along the way, it's possible that the 'on the condition you buy food and drink there' clause got misheard, mistaken, or missed out at the delivery point. He always had the option of saying no or asking a nominal fee, and I daresay this year he will... you live and learn. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:08 AM Is anyone here getting the point? |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Mr Happy Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:49 AM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYO |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM My point Liz, is that he was approached by someone (I don't know who) that wanted to use the room(s) for singing and dance practice. Now I know it wasn't by the committee. It was by somebody that wanted to use them for respective song and dance groups. Now, I assume that those people went back to those groups and said "right, the deal is that we can use it as long as we buy some drinks and food". It was a pre-condition of the deal. There was NOTHING in it for him. His bar is actually the biggest in the town and he really doesn't need the business at 8am. It's a sad world that we live in if people can't see fit to support someone that has helped them in some small way. Regarding the 'beer' point. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone. That would be ludicrous. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Mr Happy Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM In restaurants, if you want to drink your own wine with your meal, you can ask permission from the management. They then are entitled by law to charge you 'corkage', a nominal amount to cover their loss on whatever beverage yo might've purchased from them. Anyone know if there's a similar arrangement for pubs etc? |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Liz the Squeak Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM It's not just folkies, I bet EVERYONE would take the cheaper option if they could - I've worked in a licenced restaurant where people have brought in their own drink and on one occasion, a sandwich from the supermarket up the road. Trouble is, when you can get 4 cans of beer in the supermarket for the price of one pint in a pub, and your budget is limited, the temptation is obviously there. Did your friend advertise the fact that his premises were being offered for free? I bet not. Most people there probably didn't know about the freebie, thinking that as a festival venue, it received a fee from the committee. On the other hand... if he opened it up at 8.00am as a practice venue, then it's likely that alcohol was the last thing on the minds of those rehearsing and eating whilst singing or dancing are a definate no-no. I suspect his expectations exceeded his market and those who took up his kind offer weren't aware of the 'have the room for free but you must buy my food' clause. And as for your last statement M's SH: "Folkies during Whitby folk week are notoriously tight-fisted, ask any local trader. Personally, I find this at most festivals that I go to across the country too. Unless, of course it's spent on beer!" - not every one who attends folk festivals goes there exclusively to drink beer. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:07 AM Ah but Georgian Silver, he doesn't need to open his bar for them AND pay extra staff. Sour grapes doesn't come into it. He was approached to do so. Now, surely, courtesy should prevail. Especially knowing that buying a sandwich or a coffee would have been a nice gesture and simply made it worth his while. I can see it now - "right, I'll attract their attention at the bar by jingling my bells excessively loudly whilst you sneak the tupperware and the thermos in to the corner and hide it under the table". I think that anyone in their right mind that wants to 'make a killing' will steer well clear of the folk music scene. Let's face it, it really aint gonna happen! |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Neovo Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:58 AM I have witnessed folkies bringing their own drinks into folk clubs and sessions held in pubs, sometimes rooms that the organisers have been allowed to use for free - sneaking a slosh of gin or whisky into their tonic or lemonade under the table. I am totally embarassed and ashamed when I witness such behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,Edward De Bono Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:38 AM If they didn't want to buy his wares they shouldn't have used his premises! Simple as that. These tight fisted folkies make me sick. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Georgiansilver Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM If there are acts I really want to see at a particular Festival then I am quite prepared to pay whatever the cost is....however there are some Festivals or 'gatherings' where little is invested in artists of conveniences and to my mind too much money is asked for tickets..even in advance. The simple answer is...I will pick and choose as I will and go to those I want to attend. We all have choices...even as to what we understand as 'rules' or 'expectations' at these gatherings......you pays yer money..you takes yer choice! >>>>>>>>>>>A friend of mine opened his bar from 8am<<<<<<< I am approaching 60 and live on my company pension.....As someone mentioned..tax is going up hugely due to the last budget. If I can get something for nothing then I will do so. If I go to a Festival, I will get the best from it and put in whatever is necessary. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:25 AM At our club we charge £2.50 on the door when we have a guest on. Not a princely sum I think you would agree. But there are a number of people who either try to avoid paying or make ridiculous comments about donating to my 'early retirement fund', which ranckles even more seeing as I often pay at the door as well as being doorman and MC! These are often the same people who you will see buying double rounds at the bar at last orders so they can expect the (poorly) paid guest to do an extra fifteen minutes. I am glad to say that they are in a very small minority but they are still there all the same. Tight folkies? Hmmm - Generaly, no. But those that are, do so spectaculary well! Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Rumncoke Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:28 PM Hey Dave - if I ever feel the need for Child Ballads I will look you up - though as my own personal book of songs is now at about number 300 and I am trying to redo it with fewer in - it is getting heavy to carry around, I don't really need to add any more songs to my repertoire. Except Clyde Water - I have to add that. I think I need to get a new keyboard, or at least clean this one, it misses letters from time to time, or gets stuck on one. I can spell gargoyle - just never noticed I lost a couple of letters. (turns keyboard over and shakes it so bits drop out. That's better - just who has been eating crisps near this keyboard?) I do find the modern attitude to shopping rather strange - it makes me feel old. I definitely have old fashioned attitudes to getting into debt. There seems to be an attitude that treats and whims are legitimate reasons for spending money people don't have, and are never likely to be able to pay back. I bought my old Framus Texan guitar for £25 way back in 1970 - I think it will see me out, and last year I bought a new capo. They seem to wear out after 35 years. Well, I had a bit of card to put under the strap for the last ten years, but the new one is adjustable..... |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Ythanside Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:36 PM Folk music, as with jazz, rock etc, draws people from a broad spectrum of society, some of whom are clearly well off while others struggle to make ends meet. It just seems to me that little goodwill is likely to be engendered by accusations of tightfistedness when its root cause might be a basic shortage of funds. The golden rule applies, IMHO. On a lighter note, WLD, I had thought I was alone in boggling at the flashy kit wielded by some floorsingers. But hey, if it does the biz for them then it's all to the good. Two pints of neck-oil does it for me, but I'm only a singer. :-D) |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Big Al Whittle Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:17 PM Ythanside - more than a grain of truth I'm afraid in what you're saying, however jokily. the whole society is very materialistic. I can certainly understand how some people find festivals too expensive. And whilst guitars have never been cheaper, doesn't there seem a lot of floorsingers with these 'high end of the market' models? I don't begrudge these people their guitars, or feel a need to tell them what to spend their money on; but doesn't it seem a little like style before substance, occasionally. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Bonzo3legs Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM If you already have a seat in World Traveller Plus on the British Airways flight from London to Buenos Aires, it's only £400 to upgrade to Business Class one way. Unfortunately the flight was full on the return journey, we could have practised camping on the plane!!!lol |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: John MacKenzie Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM So really what is being said here, is that the only reason folkies don't go to rock concerts, is because they think the tickets are too expensive? The obvious answer is to reduce the cost of tickets for rock concerts then, this would leave space in the bars and shops of Whitby et al, for the big spenders. You know, the ones who aren't struggling to pay large mortgages, or repay student loans, and are earning more than the minimum wage. Oh sorry, did I forget the rich pensioners, and the unemployed? G |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: the lemonade lady Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM I'm a trader and I'm expected to buy a ticket to go to events when I've closed my shop for the day. Ha who wants lemonade when the sun's gone down? Sal |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:15 PM The frugal behavior of a large number of folk fans has long been a problem. I remember, as a child in the 1960s, hearing my parents discuss the fate of a favorite coffee house (and restaurant) they used to visit. It had to close, not due to a lack of customers, but to their miserly ways. Apparently people sat at tables all night and only bought coffee, and very little. It's a version of the public radio and public television mindset here--there are a lot of freeloaders. People who feel perfectly free to never contribute because they think someone else is doing it. They're not. The few who do contribute are usually always the same ones. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Folkiedave Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Rumncoke - PM Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM Although born within a gargoyle's spout of York Minster I have always found that I rarely spend what I budget for at a festival. Come to my bookstall at Shepley Spring Festival. I have a nice original (limited first edition 1,000 only) of English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Francis James Child. Plus slightly less expensive bits and pieces. And reasonably priced. (well less than four figures!!) :-) Dave
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: mattkeen Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM £2 booking fee is not a lot - period |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: John MacKenzie Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM Too many festivals, inelastic income. G |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Ythanside Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM A fair number of folkies are either retired or in the lower income bracket. Serves them right, I say, for not buying up bankrupt companies during the asset-stripping Klondyke days of the 1980s. Furthermore, I suggest that these undesirables be cordoned off somewhere out of sight at festivals while we sing about the hardships of miners, farm labourers and the unemployed. We Range Rover types have to stick together on this, Maxwell, or before we know it folk music will be overrun by working class oiks. Obviously, you were generalising. Just as obviously, you won't mind me extracting the urine. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Rumncoke Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM Although born within a gargoy's spout of York Minster I have always found that I rarely spend what I budget for at a festival. I usually either miss the things I'd like to have attended through getting caught up elsewhere, or find that I should have bought a ticket from somewhere miles away first, or obtained some other piece of printed card in order to be admitted. When I try to spend money at the stalls I usually find that what I want to buy has not been brought to the festival, or is already sold out because they only had a couple to start with - or they have never heard of what I want. It might seem odd to read that someone of the female persuasion actually has a problem spending money, but after so many years - I am approaching 60 now, I have come to expect it. Anne Croucher |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: ossonflags Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM Or you could come to The Beverley Beck Shanty Festival at end of May all free except camping. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: Carol Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM Surely there's also a difference between festivals 'proper' and song weekends, which are my favourite types. Also as nutty says a lot of festivals don't make any concessions for pensioners, especially the 60 -65 yers of age ones who are now having to pay twice as much tax as last year and £1.26/l this week for diesel on a motorway service station 'down south'. also yes some of us 'older ones' aren't able to steward due to health problems. Anyhow I still prefer a group of people enjoying themselves singing, there's nothing to beat it - try Staithes this year, there's already a thread on Mudcat about it - great long weekend and only pay for camping plus whatever you spend in the pub. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: GUEST,The Input Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:37 AM I agree with you Nutty about pensioner concessions. That's one thing I can fault that festival down the road from you for (The P word). I can see no concessions for the elderly. Surely a tenner off a full price ticket wouldn't go amiss. I will investigate! Of course you cherish the folk scene as we all do. My guess is that you'll be okay for getting to festivals. Why not offer to take friends that are camping and share the fuel costs. By the way, you have my greatest admiration for all that you do. |
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Subject: RE: Tight Folkies From: nutty Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM I guess that as most of the above posting is directed at me that I should defend my position. I certainly do not want something for nothing. I have been involved in folk music for so many years that I am very much aware of how much it costs to run a festival and how much time and effort has been put in over the years to make the folk scene what it is today. I have watched many of todays stars grow up and have supported them in their success. The folk world needs its young ones but it also needs its oldies. The world is changing - things are getting more expensive and you have to be a pensioner on a fixed income that is not keeping pace with inflation to really appreciate this fact. OK .. A £2 booking fee isn't much when you are on £30/40,000 a year but it represents half a gallon (or less) of diesel, about 20 miles of travel in the camper. Similarly, pensioner consessions, particularly when you want to go to more than one festival a year. OK , I could steward which many pensioners do . Unfortunately because of health problems that is not an option for me. I do run workshops at some festivals which helps with the finances but not all festivals want that. I cherish the folk scene and my friends from all around the country and will be sad to see the day - which I know will come - when going to a festival will, because of fuel costs and ticket prices, be more than I can afford. |
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