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BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Jeri Date: 14 May 08 - 06:47 PM As I type, John Edwards is endorsing Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 14 May 08 - 10:27 PM Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Just as it was Bob Deckman's fault entirely that Hillary did not concede on Tim Russert's show, it's entirely my fault that she did not concede right after winning the WV primary. I'm wearing 5 hairshirts, mapping out the quickest (or should it be the slowest and most painful?) route to Canossa, and I have an appointment with the albino monk from the DaVinci Code. The longer she waits now to concede, the less likely there will be support for her to run in 2016 (or 2012, if the occasion arises). At least we have the answer to the question as to whether she knows her own best long-term interests. She has no clue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 14 May 08 - 10:29 PM But if Edwards' move means more of his delegates start declaring for Obama, even Hillary may start to realize the situation. Who knows? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 15 May 08 - 07:32 AM The Clinton camp is well apprised of the situation. You don't bow out in the immediate aftermath of a landslide victory over your opponent. Also, the math that matters most to them now--the financial side--she benefits most by staying in until the convention, so she can work over summer to retire some of her debt. So I'd say they are still running a very good campaign, actually. It is nothing to sneeze at, what she accomplished in West Virginia, and the Democrats ignore that to their own peril. Which is what they usually do anyway, so it all looks pretty much the same as it did last week to me, despite the Edwards endorsement. Edwards was waiting to see who won North Carolina before he declared. Once it was clear Obama could still win a big victory, it was safe for him (Edwards) to endorse. He wasn't about to back the loser, that's for sure. Not if he intends another run for the White House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 15 May 08 - 08:23 AM Yup, Fantz, that's purdy much it... And she finally is running a good campaign... Just too late to get it half right... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 May 08 - 08:30 AM Keep whistling in the dark, Janet. But please put you life-preserver on, on the rather good chance the ship goes down. We wouldn't want to lose you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 May 08 - 08:30 AM "your life preserver" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 15 May 08 - 08:32 AM She has always been running a good campaign. She has almost the same number of popular voters who cast their votes for her as Obama has. You can't do any better than that without winning the prize. Say what you will about the Clintons, whom I detest (although I detest Bill far more than Hillary), they know how to campaign to win, and that's what they do. So now, it doesn't have anything to do with what Hillary does. She may well stay in it until the convention. Now, the only thing that matters is how Obama plays it. This is a very volatile situation, and these matters must be handled with kid gloves for Obama to come out of the primaries looking positive. There is no guarantee that will happen, IMO. Because the Obama camp has made some really serious and troubling errors in judgment with they ways they've been playing the race cards and stacking that deck against the Clintons. The result may well end up being that they will lose the white working class no matter what Clinton does for the general election. They as a voting bloc have been treated really unfairly this election--portrayed as stupid, dumb, poor, racist white trash by the MSM. And the Obama camp did nothing to counter that, because driving that wedge worked to his advantage in the primaries. Problem is, it will work against him in the general. So we'll see what the Obama strategy is for the general to try and win them over. But he is going to need a whole lot more than what Edwards and Clinton will deliver for him. He needs a new grand vision to reach out to that voting bloc in particular. They, more than any other demographic group in the primaries, have been deeply wounded, just as unfairly as Obama was with Wright. But you don't see anyone speaking up for them, the way you do the African American church community, now do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 May 08 - 10:05 AM It seems clear to me that Edwards just announced that he wants the vice-presidential nomination. He said good things about Hillary, whom he has favored in the past, so that his credibility is not too much damaged by a turnabout, but he sees what he thinks is the winner and is hoping that his support will gain him the silver medal. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 15 May 08 - 10:09 AM Obama's campaign has been better organized fromt he outset, better financed, and generally less duplicitous. I am curious what the equation of local interests looks like, to the voters in West Virginia, that they ended up with the computation that Hillary would do them more good. Things get sucked out of their normal proportions in the vicinity of black holes, and ecopnomically, West Virginia is as close to a black hole as we have among our fellow-States. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 May 08 - 09:38 PM Janet-- Your latest posting is positively Shakespearean--full of sound and fury and signifying.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Dan Schatz Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM Yesterday, June 4, Sen. Hillary Clinton sent her reporters an e-mail that included the following line: "On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy." Now this is interesting! Back on May 9, I wrote from my laptop: Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Dan - PM Date: 09 May 08 - 10:09 AM Slate Onlne has a delegate calculator - it's instructive. If you give her all the remaining states except Oregon by an 80/20 margin, and give her Oregon by a 60/40 margin, then give her Florida and Michigan as they "voted" - he still wins in delegates. With the way the superdelegates are headed, I'd say she's out on June 4. Dan Does this mean I win the contest? What's my prize? Dan (worried about the "prize" and ducking for cover) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM Damn, Dan, that is impressive. You were two days off from Friday, three from Saturday depending on when she makes the actual speech, but you could argue that by announcing today or yesterday that she was going to, she has already bowed out. Very impressive. I had her on the 1st of June, but I should have known she would drag some heels on such a painful event. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Dan Schatz Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM I'm a native Washingtonian. Punditry is in my genes. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:05 PM Dan- Congratulations! The honor couldn't have gone to a more honorable Mudcat member. Have you considered predicting Obama's margin of victory in November? Please PM me with the number. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Dan Schatz Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:36 PM I'm also a Democrat. I've learned not to tempt fate. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: dick greenhaus Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM Wait! Wait! the results from the Estonian primaries aren't in yet! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM Excellent point, dick. Hillary could still win this thing... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM Congratulations, Dan. I foolishly assumed that Hillary was less self-destructive than she is. Thanks to her conduct, now the only possible way she ever has a chance at the presidency herself is if Obama wins in November. And of course she'll have a long wait before her next opportunity. Had she bowed out after winning, say in WV, she would have built up a reservoir of good will in the party for her own future ambitions. And I thought she was smart enough to realize this. Now she has no good will in the party at large--beyond her own partisans. And many women, as well as men, want nothing to do with a Hillary presidency. We'll see just how hard she campaigns for Obama. That will tell the tale on her own future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:19 AM Oh, yes-- now her helpful spouse will also have to break his neck campaigning for Obama---unless of course he doesn't really want to see her president eventually. I've read that if she had made it, his position would have been very awkward--especially regarding donors to the Clinton library and foundation. And his role would have been hard to establish--roving "ambassador" was not an option. Maybe he would have been kicked upstairs to the Supreme Court. I can just imagine the reaction of many Republicans--and even some Mudcatters-- to that prospect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM You mean to say that it doesn't send a thrill of expectation through you imagining Bill Clinton sitting on the Supreme Court? Maybe as Chief Justice? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM I have no strenuous objections to Bill Clinton on the Supreme Court. But then I'm a Republican who has also supported Obama from the start, has been very impressed with him in a whole range of areas, particularly his grace under pressure, has contributed financially to his campaign--albeit not much in the grand scheme of things--, can't wait to vote for him, and am convinced that he's the best thing to happen to the US since Lincoln. And therefore it's remotely possible that I may not be a typical Republican. And as I said, it's also possible that even some Mudcatters would not be overjoyed with Bill on the Supreme Court. I can think of a few who might object. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM So can I. How did you become a Republican, Ron? And how long have you been one? Is there "a typical Republican"? Goodness knows, I lived in upstate New York at one time, and I was surrounded there by what seemed to be typical Republicans...but I'm not sure if my judgement on that would be the final word on the matter. It was a pretty horrifying experience, but I survived... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bill D Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM Hey, Ron...*grin*...you're as much a Republican as Joe Lieberman is Democrat... atypical? Indeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM "Thanks to her conduct, now the only possible way she ever has a chance at the presidency herself is if Obama wins in November." Actually, the best chance for her to become president is for Obama to lose in November, then she can run again in 2012. Or if Obama uses her as VeePee in an effort to win over all the voters he pissed off in the primary, and the Black Panthers gun him down for not giving enough money to Reverend Wright. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM You really are eager to give Ron further ammo for righteous indignation, aren't you, Rig? ;-) Look, I have said before that I will gladly arrange a prizefight between the two of you so you can settle your differences honorably in the ring. Chongo knows all the boxing clubs in Chicago and he can easily get you guys a ring, a time, and a well-qualified ape referee to make sure no one pulls any dirty tricks like hitting below the belt or packing some lead in the boxing gloves. What are you waiting for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Zach Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:29 PM Female down, black guy left. Please don't delude yourself that a coloured man or woman will ever reach high office in the states. Sadly Americans are just not ready for that despite what they say publicly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:06 PM "Please don't delude yourself that a coloured man or woman will ever reach high office in the states. Sadly Americans are just not ready for that despite what they say publicly. " Phrased like that, what you are really saying is that you are not ready for a "coloured" man or woman to reach high office... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:09 PM Zach: You are a sad sack, sadly. Please do not delude yourself that you know what Americans are or are not ready for. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM Folks that are so intellectually lacking that they base their choices on how much melanin is in someone's skin are in a panic. The forewarded crap I get is scary. This is so frightening to them, that many of them are willing to vote for a man who wants to continue sending sons and daughters to fight and die in a war based on a lie. They are willing to vote for a man who wants to continue the failed economic policies that have the middle and lower in such dire straits. In these circumstances, it is critically important that Hillary follow up on her strong endorsement. Those of us who understand the numbers know that the number is 7%. That is the percentage of the likely voters that will not vote for a person of color. If Obama has to overcome that, AND disaffection of anything more than a neglible amount of the Clinton supporters, and assuming the McCain people run a great campaign, we have a problem. I believe that as folks come to know Obama, he can counter a great deal of this, especially if he is smart in the issues he raises, and in who he lets it be known that will be in his administration. "Zach", you are not anonymous as you think you are. And you are a low life. You have confirmed what I always thought about you. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:41 AM "...best way for her to become president is for Obama to lose in November." 1) Not likely, since he will win. 2) Even if he were to lose, she will only ever have a chance in the future if she tries now to move heaven and earth to get her supporters to vote for him. If she does not, how much support do you think the Democratic Establishment will give to somebody who did not help the party's presidential candidate this year after he was picked? Particularly when she has trashed him with one of the most negative primary campaigns in quite a while. Hope this question doesn't strain the poster too much, since it actually requires him to think--probably an unreasonable request. It's actually rather likely that she has already destroyed her chances for another presidential run forever by her appeals to "hard-working Americans, white Americans" and her blatant hope for Obama's assassination. It's not likely Democratic movers and shakers will want to associate themselves with such sentiments---ever. But dream on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Jun 08 - 08:31 AM "You really are eager to give Ron further ammo for righteous indignation, aren't you, Rig? ;-)" And it seems to have worked! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:13 AM As usual, a fact-free reponse from the CEO of Smears R Us. Nice to know some things don't change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:46 AM And it's still working! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 10:13 AM Still waiting for a logical answer as to how Hillary will have any chance in the future to become president if she does not break her neck now trying to get Obama elected. Looks like it will be a long wait for an answer--especially from somebody whose only answer to any question is to whine about "the media", Mexicans, religion, or whatever conspiracy theory is flavor of the day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM Going to a bluegrass festival now. Have fun here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:03 AM Well, I think Hillary's best chance to become President was this year, and I'm sorry it didn't happen. If Obama doesn't make it this time, she'll have a good chance in 2012. But you're right, Ron: she'll have another shot only if she's a good sport and works hard for her party's candidate every term until her next chance comes. If she has to wait until 2016, she'll be a bit beyond the ideal age to become the first woman President - somewhere in her 60's is probably the best age. Who's the next best chance to become the first woman President? Sara Palin? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM "...only answer to any question is to whine about "the media", Mexicans, religion, or whatever conspiracy theory is flavor of the day." Ron - I would certainly agree with you that the medai, Mexicans, and religion are very, very serious problems. But there are other things to be concerned about too, such as health care, and the economy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:10 PM However, I am not the one always talking about the terrible threat from (pick one or more): Mexicans, the "MSM", religion, capitalism, the political duopoly. Why? Since in contrast to some around here, I am aware that none of these are monolithic . If more Mudcatters were able to discern shades of gray--not insisting on black and white portrayal of a given issue, more would make sense--and none would be the CEO of Smears R Us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:34 PM You are a chain-pullers dream, Ron. ;-) Well, you are when it comes to politics anyway. I note that you are far less nasty when discussing most other things. At least I think so...I'm trying to remember when I've read something from you that wasn't about politics...hmmm...(?) Hold that thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:48 PM Interesting my point has not been addressed. Silence consents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM Anybody who wants to pull chains is now invited to pull his own chain. Sweet dreams. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:56 PM Your point? I don't even recall your point at the moment, and I hardly care about that. It's your attitude toward people I'm discussing, not your point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:37 PM Sarah Palin - She's pretty! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:41 PM I repeat: if more Mudcatters were aware of shades of grey, not insisting on black-white distinctions--and not addicted to conspiracy theories--more posters on political threads would make more sense. But it is interesting that it seems that both the people who insist on simplistic interpretations of politics and economics and the scapegoat seekers oppose Obama. As I said: no wonder that most educated people back him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:49 PM Ron - That leaves you with the problem of defining educated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:54 PM Recognizing and accepting shades of gray, not jumping up to salute every half-baked conspiracy theory one sees, and not looking for scapegoats for every problem--e.g. Mexicans, religion, "the media"--would be a good start. Why do you ask? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:02 PM I didn't ask anything. I was simply looking back to your last post. It just seemed to me that you were being vague. You say that "educated" voters were behind Obama, but still you haven't defined educated so readers are left wondering what you meant by that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:10 PM I've given a good start to defining an "educated voter", which anybody can see. As I've noted, it's interesting that the vast majority of educated voters--at least on Mudcat-- seem to back Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:33 PM Yes, it does seem that Obama voters have a very strong "herd" instinct. |
