BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:40 AM

There are many Jewish people who are well and truely sickened by what the Zionist have done and are doing ....from the indiscriminate bombing of residential blocks in Gaza to the destruction of some 15000 homes in Lebanon ,the slaughtering of hundreds of Palestinian children in Gaza to the brazen theft of Palestinian land in the West Bank and elsewhere......and all in God's name??
Of course the Jewish people who are opposed to these vicious ,brutalising policies then get harassed by Zionists and called self hating. And there are many Jews in Israel who are opposed to what the Zionists are doing.I saw a video clip recently of a group of orthodox Jews being beaten up by Zionist thugs in a synagogue.
As for the claim that Israel is a place where Jews "might live and prosper" think again.
It is one of the most violent societies in the world.It is a country of fear and insecurity.It is an apartheid like place where a colonial regime ,corrupt to the core, has to oppress,terrorise ,kill,expel or imprison those who have lived on its land for many generations.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:47 PM

Good one, Arnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:45 PM

There is - it is called Israel- and it's here to stay for quite some time, although many Jew haters are trying to change that. The other state has yet to be realized- and hopefully it will exist in peace and prosperity with it's neighbors soon..

Out of curiosity, Arnie, do you consider the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:15 PM

Good one, Arnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:13 PM

"There can only be a one state solution some time in the future and any Zionist who cannot accept that should return to New York or some other place but there will be no room in the new state for their thuggery and armed swaggering!"
MM - I suppose if Israel was weak enough to lose just one of those crucial wars and the Zionists and Jews were all killed or driven back out to New York or back to Poland, you'd be quite happy right now.
I thought you were gonna say that Jews or Zionists should go to Madacascar or Grand Island New York something. I've got news for you Albert. Jews we were taught that Israel was to be a place that was were given by God as part of a heritage forever, an everlasting covenant - to be settled in and to serve God for the benefit of humanity. Jewish people have believed this for thousands of years. To be Jewish is to be a Zionist in some form - it is the essence of the religion, so to try to make Zionism into some kind of evilism just won't do you any good. To be Jewish is to believe in Israel as a nation with Jerusalem at it's core - one place at least where a Jew might live and prosper without being annihilated- but even that prospect is now difficult to fathom. It may be possible to arrange to live in peace together with any other peace loving religion or peace loving neighbor. It's a matter of will. A one state solution? There is - it is called Israel- and it's here to stay for quite some time, although many Jew haters are trying to change that. The other state has yet to be realized- and hopefully it will exist in peace and prosperity with it's neighbors soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:27 PM

If al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized the systmatic murder of Jews it is he who bears the blame and not the British, the Jews, Mr Samuel nor Spot the Wonder Dog.

Well that's nice to know. I'll quote you on that in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:25 PM

I gave up reading her posts about ten back. Too much fiction in with the facts. It's called cherry picking.

snipe snipe snipe.

But that's what people do when they've got nothing of substance to offer themselves. Especially when they are trying to defend the indefensible, and the only "facts" they have to work with are collective myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:47 AM

Reply to Peace...
I am not narrow minded on the issue of the oppression of the Palestinian people.I support their struggle and along with millions of others across the world I would like to see the oppression end.
I want to see an end to the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of Gazan citizens and the hundreds of its children who have been killed or maimed in recent years.
I want to see an end to the Israeli death squads roaming across the occupied West Bank murdering Palestinians.
I want to see an end to the Israeli land grab of Jerusalem and the West Bank.
And I want to see the Israeli military which has been bullying and swaggering across the Middle East for decades defeated.For too long it has been using cluster bombs,high exposives and apache gunships against civilians.
It destroyed Beirut and last year revisited Lebanon with its usual cluster bomb calling card.
And I believe that the Palestinians have the right to self defence against one of the most powerful military machines in the world.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:20 AM

To blame the evil actions of a leader on people who supported him in power is wrong and simplistic.

Each person is responsible for his or her own actions. Period.

Suddam Hussein was responsible for the deaths of 1.4 million people and he was solely responsible.

Pol Pot is also credited with the slaughter of 1.4 million people. The man was a monster. Nobody else can be blamed.

If al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized the systmatic murder of Jews it is he who bears the blame and not the British, the Jews, Mr Samuel nor Spot the Wonder Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Mohammed Rasheed--that's his new name. BTW, I expect that somehow Israelis will be blamed for this, too. What's new?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:03 AM

Anybody read about Nicky Reilly? Exeter? Or should that too be kept quiet--in the name of being nice to groups like Hezbollah. Just one more straw in the wind. Such reasonable people these 'freedom fighters'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:00 AM

'But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.;

I gave up reading her posts about ten back. Too much fiction in with the facts. It's called cherry picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:51 AM

"And all the time this state has been armed and economically supported by the most powerful nation in the world ."

Good thing for Jewish people, because without that support they would have been subject to a second holocaust.

Palestinians are supported also by very oil-rich nations in the Middle East. Lest we forget.

I have the impression that "Guest Albert" is so narrow minded on this issue that his sctarch pads are about 1/4" wide. Wake up fer krissake.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:04 AM

LOL

One source I've just been looking at, a pro-Zionist Jewish source, is saying that it's all the fault of the British. They're saying that a couple of high ranking members of the British military and intelligence services instructed Haj Amin to instigate riots and and to commit violence on Jews, telling him that freedom could only be attained through violence, and that if he did that, the British would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish home. This source is saying that after instructing Haj Amin to do this, the British then withdrew their forces as well as the Jewish Police from Jerusalem so that he could instigate the riots unimpeded.

What do you think, Teribus? Shall we place all of the blame on the British instead of on the Palestinians and the Zionists?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:40 AM

Albert,
What is true is the fact that for much of pre zionist history the minority Jewish population of Palestine enjoyed reasonable relations with their christian and muslim Palestinian neighbours.The communities had been rubbing along together for many generations.
The coming of a European Zionist ideology and colonial settlers intent on creating a Zionist state in this sensitive land was bound to create massive inter communal and inter religious conflict ...and it did.
The founding of the state of Israel at the expense of the majority Palestinian population was done with the connivance of the great western powers who had done so little to help Jewish refugees from the Holocaust.
The solution they arrived at was to create a catastrophe for the Palestinian people who have been oppressed,attacked and brutalised ever since.....but this solution has created a deadend for Israel where the most hawkish thuggish and right wing Zionists have state recognition and indeed support.And all the time this state has been armed and economically supported by the most powerful nation in the world .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:29 AM

CarolC - of the three "tribal" representatives put forward, which "tribe" traditionally held the post of "Mufti of Jerusalem"? Which "tribe" viewed the post as being historically "their" right?

I've seen differing viewpoints on this. Some of them say that the post was not hereditary, some say that members of the Husseini family had held the position for a few generations, and one of them even said (this was a pro-Zionist source, by the way) that even the Husseini family didn't think Haj Amin should become the Mufti. I think I'll hold off on forming an opinion about this until I see more information about it. Nevertheless, by law, al-Husseini had no rights to the position, and I fail to see what point you are trying to make with this question.


Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to

Please show me where I referred to riots in 1920 in this thread.


But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.

Please show me where I said the riots never occurred.


Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to occured before Samuel became Governor, the British Army under Allanby were still in control. Those riots (unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs) were instigated by al-Husseini in order to secure his appointment. The Al-Husseini "clan" was the most numerous/powerful in Palestine, note CarolC in Palestine, not in Jerusalem where the votes were cast. In the aftermath of the riots in 1920, al-Husseini put himself forward as the only candidate capable of controlling the Arab population and keeping the peace. That piece of "bullshit" the newly arrived Governor, Herbert Samuel, bought into, and that is what secured Al-Husseini the position.

I've seen a lot of explanations for Samuel's decision (nobody seems to really know, since all of the sources I've seen, including quite a few pro-Zionist ones, have entirely different explanations for his decision). Yours is very creative, I must admit, but it carries no more weight than any other explanation. But even if it was merely a stupid decision on Samuel's part, he is still the one who is responsible for Haj Amin's reign of terror. My own opinion is that his decision fits the pattern of behavior of the Zionist leadership - fomenting violence for the purpose of promoting their agenda.


I note in this thread up until now, the Palestinian advocates only refer to incidents since 1948, while they conveniently forget completely the events of the period 1920 to 1948. Without repeated acts of unprovoked violence visited upon their communities by the Arab population of Palestine during that period, Jewish organisations such as Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang would never have existed, there would have been no need for them.

One of the things that happened prior to 1948 was Zionist murders of anti-Zionist Jews. That's something that people like you conveniently overlook as well. I guess it's ok to kill Jews if they don't support the Zionist party line.

Yes, there were riots. Non-Jewish Palestinians were being displaced, both physically and economically by the European settlers, and they were not at all happy about it. You may not consider displacing a people a provocation, but most of the rest of the people in the world do consider it a provocation.


On the "Right of Return" take a good look at who qualifies as a refugee, and then tell me why that definition is totally unacceptable.

First you tell me who qualifies for Jewish "Right of Return".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM

CarolC - of the three "tribal" representatives put forward, which "tribe" traditionally held the post of "Mufti of Jerusalem"? Which "tribe" viewed the post as being historically "their" right?

Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to occured before Samuel became Governor, the British Army under Allanby were still in control. Those riots (unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs) were instigated by al-Husseini in order to secure his appointment. The Al-Husseini "clan" was the most numerous/powerful in Palestine, note CarolC in Palestine, not in Jerusalem where the votes were cast. In the aftermath of the riots in 1920, al-Husseini put himself forward as the only candidate capable of controlling the Arab population and keeping the peace. That piece of "bullshit" the newly arrived Governor, Herbert Samuel, bought into, and that is what secured Al-Husseini the position.

But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.

I note in this thread up until now, the Palestinian advocates only refer to incidents since 1948, while they conveniently forget completely the events of the period 1920 to 1948. Without repeated acts of unprovoked violence visited upon their communities by the Arab population of Palestine during that period, Jewish organisations such as Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang would never have existed, there would have been no need for them.

On the "Right of Return" take a good look at who qualifies as a refugee, and then tell me why that definition is totally unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:30 PM

Under law, the colonial power was to choose among the top three vote-getters. al-Husseini placed fourth, receiving only about 7% of the vote. Samuel forced the most popular candidate, Sheikh Husam al-Din to withdraw, which put al-Hesseini in third place, and Samuel appointed him Mufti for life.

Jews and Palestinians alike have Herbert Samuel to thank for every single act of violence and destruction committed by al-Husseini while he held this position and the other positions that arose from his being appointed Mufti of Jerusalem.

Herbert Samuel was most certainly not appeasing the Palestinians by skirting around the law and overriding their votes against al-Husseini. He was pursuing an agenda of his own that had nothing whatever to do with the welfare of either Jewish or non-Jewish Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:18 PM

Sounds just like you when you talk about Israel, Jews and Israelis. Huh.

I don't see any reason to allow other people to define my side of the argument. I'll define it myself. You, for instance, try to always frame it in terms of those who support human rights for Palestinians as being Israel haters and Jew haters/bashers. I can certainly understand why you would need to do that, though, since you're trying to defend the indefensible, and it's the best you've got. Still, most intelligent people can see right through that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:15 PM

It has been written here by CarolC that the Zionist, Herbert Samuel, appointed al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem against the wishes of the Arab populace. We are to infer from this that the Mufti's appointment was a Zionist plot which controls Palestinians' destiny to this very minute, just one of a continuing number of such plots.

Well, not exactly! In the years immediately following WWI, Mr. al-Husseini, was fomenting riots in Palestine against Jews and the British mandate, and was a wanted man (by the British) in exile in 1920. Because the British wanted to appease the Arab population amongst whom he was, indeed, popular, al-Husseni was granted amnesty in 1921, and was appointed to be Grand Mufti by Samuel who was the British High Commissioner for Palestine. Commissioner Samuel was acting in his government position for the benefit of Great Britain and the Mandate, not as a Zionist (although he was personally a Zionist.)

Al-Husseini used his position to continue fomenting anti-Jewish riots and other mischief, and was deposed by the British in 1936. From there he went to Nazi Germany to aid in anti-Jewish activities, and eventually lived out his long life in Lebanon; he died there in 1974.

Grand plot? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:00 PM

'"Seeing both sides of the issue" is a pretty meaningless term, since most of the time in discussions like these, people who are arguing against Palestinian rights are attempting to define both sides.'

Sounds just like you when you talk about Israel, Jews and Israelis. Huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:54 PM

Here's some of what was reported closer to 9/11...


"Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming 'middle-eastern' men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery."

--HA'ARETZ 9/17/01


"Also, five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture."

--Associated Press 12/17/01


"Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact. Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot."

--Yediot America 11/2/01


Kind of looks like they wanted people to think 9/11 was committed by Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:42 PM

"Seeing both sides of the issue" is a pretty meaningless term, since most of the time in discussions like these, people who are arguing against Palestinian rights are attempting to define both sides.


None of these stories has all of the information, but when you put all of them together, you get a more complete picture. However, closer to 9/11, I saw quite a bit of reportage in the mainstream media that showed that there were numerous incidents of white vans and trucks with people dressed as Arabs in them doing suspicious things, and the ones who were stopped and questioned turned out to be Israelis...

Jerusalem Post (URL is too long to post)

http://www.zwire.com/site/mercury_101801.html

http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:15 PM

Well I'm glad to see you considering both sides of the issue for a change. As for the assertion about the Israelis dressed as filmaking Arabs, could you provide a source for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:09 PM

That one cuts both ways, bobad. Considering the fact that the Israeli government committed terrorist attacks in Egypt (Lavon Affair) using agents who pretended to be non-Jewish Arabs, one could also say, "makes one wonder how many of the "iconic" atrocities attributed to the barbaric Arabs were staged in a similar fashion doesn't it?" This could include all of the terrorist attacks in Israel and elsewhere, even 9/11.

After all, the Israelis who were filming the destruction of the Twin Towers were disguised as Arabs. I'd be careful about making those kinds of insinuations. As I said... they cut both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:56 PM

The item posted by Ghost of Electricity makes one wonder how many of the "iconic" atrocities attributed to the barbaric Israelis were staged in a similar fashion doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:55 PM

Trivia note about Kahane:

When Kahane was a young rabbi in Brooklyn in the late 1950s and early 1960s, he used to give bar mitzvah lessons.

Among his students was Arlo Guthrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:51 PM

"Masada 2000 is a hate group, not unlike skinhead and neo-Nazi groups."

CarolC is absolutely correct about Masada 2000.

It is run by the followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, a racist extremist from Brooklyn, NY, who moved to Israel and founded the Kach political party.

Kach was declared illegal and banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

As Kahane followers, the Masada 2000 would not be allowed to exist in Israel. It is based in Scotsdale, Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:35 PM

Vindication for watchdog on al-Dura video

Devorah Lauter

The decision by a Paris court to overturn a libel ruling against a French media watchdog who claimed the iconic shooting of 12-year-old Mohammed al-Dura was manipulated by video editing lent new credence to claims that the shooting was staged.

Published: 05/22/2008


PARIS (JTA) -- Ever since Mohammed al-Dura was shot and killed at Gaza's Netzarim Junction on Sept. 30, 2000 amid Israeli-Palestinian fighting, claims that the boy's death was staged for prime-time TV have struggled for credence outside the Jewish world.

One French media watchdog who was especially strident in making this claim, Philippe Karsenty, paid a heavy price for his advocacy: He was sued for libel by the TV station that shot the al-Dura footage, France 2 TV, and slapped with fines totaling nearly $7,000. The 2006 ruling found Karsenty guilty of libel for claiming France 2 TV's report was "pure fiction."

But on Wednesday, Karsenty was vindicated when a Paris appeals court overturned this original judgment against him.

"It is a great day for the freedom of expression in France, the freedom of media and the truth in the media," Karsenty told JTA after the ruling.

The move lent new credence to the claims by Karsenty and others that the iconic shooting of the 12-year-old Palestinian boy, which fanned the flames of the second intifada, was manipulated by video editing.

The ruling "means there is a strong chance that I'm right," Karsenty said.

The court's decision said Karsenty, director of a group called Media Ratings, had the right to accuse France 2 TV and its Jerusalem correspondent, Charles Enderlin, of manipulating the video of al-Dura.

The video in question showed al-Dura and his father cowering in terror while trying to shelter themselves from gunfire. The film then cut to a slumped, motionless Mohammed lying in his father's lap.

Enderlin, narrating the video shot in Gaza by a France 2 cameraman, pronounced the boy dead and said Israel was responsible.

The footage became an iconic image used around the world to vilify Israel and, in some cases, Jews.

"Even I cried when I saw those images," said Sammy Ghozlan, a French Jewish leader and the president of the National Bureau of Vigilance against Anti-Semitism. "They were everywhere, and they set off the surge of anti-Semitism in France."

But the circumstances of the boy's death later came under question. Israel, after initially apologizing for the incident, said a subsequent investigation showed its troops could not possibly have struck the boy from their positions that day.

"Events could not have occurred as they were described by the network's reporter, Charles Enderlin, since they contradict the laws of physics," Israeli government spokesman Danny Seaman wrote in a letter to The Associated Press.

Activists raised further doubts about the film's authenticity when they discovered Enderlin had been in Ramallah the day of the filming, and that a freelance Palestinian photographer had shot the footage.

Additional footage, which was not included in the broadcast by the French network, also appeared to show the al-Dura boy lift his head and open his eyes after being pronounced dead. France 2 TV had refused to make that footage public until ordered to show it to a French court last November.

Other video reports by Reuters on the day of the Gaza clash showed groups of young Palestinian men staging scenes where they were carried into ambulances as if seriously wounded, then emerging from the ambulances uninjured and laughing.

Even as Karsenty celebrated his courtroom victory this week, France 2 appealed Wednesday's ruling to the Final Court of Appeals, Paris officials said Thursday.

Karsenty said he wasn't too concerned, and that the vindication of his claims was sweet given that few paid attention to, or believed, his claims -- particularly in France.

Few french Jewish groups embraced his cause, and Jewish groups in the United States were slow to.

Last fall, France 2's communications director, Christine de la Vena, told JTA, "Everyone has forgotten about this case except this man in the hearing and a couple of others who refuse to give it up. Only in France could a couple of individuals cause so much trouble."

Richard Prasquier, the president of the CRIF umbrella group of French Jews, eventually did offer the CRIF's backing to Karsenty, and several U.S. Jewish groups touted his claims.

The American Jewish Committee and the Zionist Organization of America applauded Wednesday's ruling. The ZOA will honor Karsenty with its Ben Hecht Journalism Award in New York this November.

Karsenty and many of his supporters said they hope this week's ruling will help bring the truth behind the al-Dura shooting to light.

"I'm happy that the judge recognizes we have a right to ask questions about the media, and that France 2 isn't beyond any suspicion," said Jacque Tarnero, a co-director of the documentary film "Decipherings" that focuses on the French media's portrayals of Israel during the first few years of the second intifada. "But now we still don't know the truth or the facts."

Tarnero called for the release of additional footage of the al-Dura shooting never made available by France 2. He called for a deeper investigation of the report, which became a symbol of the "supposed barbarism of Israelis who killed children."

"Now it is time for France 2 to acknowledge that it created and is continuing to perpetuate the worst anti-Semitic libel of our era," Karsenty said.

"It's the responsibility of the French government, and ultimately the responsibility of the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, to finally reveal the truth."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:28 PM

"New Historians" - "we do [historiography] because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth seekers."

That about encapsulates it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:01 PM

Carol that Shit list you linked to is just plain nasty!

Here is a description of 'Rabbi' Arthur J.Abrams (the inverted commas are from the author of the shit list!) as a 'bald-headed baboon of a rabbi'

The Vancouver, British Columbian singer Stephen Aberle, a steering committee member for Jews for a Just Peace, is damned for daring to call Jew and Arabs "brothers and sisters!"

and that's just the first few 'As'!

btw ...
Ilan Pappe ran for the Knesset on the Hadash ticket (a left-wing non-Zionist political party in Israel - an acronymn translated as The Democratic Front for Peace and Equality) which supports evacuation of all illegal Israeli settlements and calls for recognition of Palestinian Arabs as a national minority within Israel.
Hadash is also known for being active on social and environmental issues.

Ilan Pappe is currently Professor of History at the University of Exeter and is referred to as one of the
'New Historians'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Of course, we don't have to look too far for examples of Jews killing Jews in Israel and Palestine. Jews were killed in the terrorist bombing of the King David hotel. And Jews (Jewish children, but they weren't of European origin, so who cares, right?) were killed during the eugenically and financially motivated "ringworm experiments". And then, of course, there's the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.

So I guess the Palestinians don't have any kind of monopoly on that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:43 PM

bobad, I've been saying for a long time that there were many Palestinian victims of the Mufti. You're only supporting my arguments with that post.

The Palestinian leadership did not want al-Husseini to be the Grand Mufti, and neither did the majority of Palestinians. The considered him to be a thug. But it was the Zionist, Herbert Samuel who had him released from prison and installed him as the Mufti. al-Husseini killed anyone who resisted him, including Palestinians. And yet, all of the Palestinians are still being punished for the acts of a man they didn't want or support, and who was appointed to his position of power by a Zionist.

As far as the rest of it goes, why should you care if Palestinians are killing Palestinians? The idea is to get rid of the Palestinians, right. It looks to me like they're just doing you a favor.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:35 PM

Palestinians Killing Palestinians

Maybe you'd like to read about how Palestinians treat their fellow countrymen on their shitlist. Some nice pictures too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:21 PM

The last time I looked at the Masada 2000 "shit list" it had under 4,000 Jews on it. I expect that list is going to get pretty long before they're finished with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:13 PM

bobad has linked to the Masada 2000 site. Masada 2000 is a hate group, not unlike skinhead and neo-Nazi groups. Here is their "shit list" (hate list) of 7000 Jews who don't support what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Ilan Pappe is in some excellent companyon that list...

http://www.masada2000.org/list-A.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Another excerpt from the aforementioned critique:

"Pappe's scholarship is questionable and subject to much criticism by respected historians. He dismisses the legitimacy of historical facts and rewrites history to support his ideologically determined agenda. He has admitted to the predominance of the Marxist worldview in defining conclusions and outcomes, by asserting that "we do [historiography] because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth seekers."

Pappe routinely and purposefully discredits or ignores sources that contradict his anti-Zionist views, and when challenged by students who cite accepted historical narratives, criticizes them for reading "the wrong books." When confronted by the actual, benign text of an Israeli military doctrine, which contradicted Pappe's thesis that such documents called for the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs, he admitted that no such doctrinal statement actually existed, but was implied simply by the existence and concomitant predispositions of Zionism."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:03 PM

Actually, the article is not an indictment of either side. It is a look at a book that examines a relatively unknown facet of the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I don't agree. It shows what I have been saying for a long time; that the majority of Palestinians did not hate Jews or commit violence, and it shows some if the manipulations that the Zionist leadership used to work toward their goal of displacing Palestinians. It also supports the argument I have been making that al-Husseini was appointed to the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in violation of the wishes of the majority of the Palestinians and of the Palestinian leadership.

Some of the arguments that people defending the actions of the Zionist leadership and the Israeli leadership have been making are the idea that the Palestinians hated Jews and that the majority of them wanted to "drive the Jews into the sea", and they have been using this excuse to try to legitimize what has been done to the Palestinians. I have been arguing since 2002 that this is a terrible libel that has been and is being committed against the Palestinians, and that it's not true.

Your article vindicates what I have been saying since 2002.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:59 PM

A critique of Ilan Pappe

"The most hated Israeli in Israel" - an ignoble moniker to be sure - has not eroded Ilan Pappe's star power on U.S. college campuses, where he is more often than not warmly greeted. The usual contingent of Said acolytes, Chomsky groupies and a panoply of pro-Palestinian student organizations are invariably well-represented in his audiences. The prominence of resolutely anti-Israel partisans is unsurprising, given Pappe's role as one of Israel's most prominent die-hard Marxists. Pappe was invited to UCLA by history professor and fellow Edward Said disciple, Gabriel Piterberg. A call to the university revealed that history department professors may invite speakers at their own discretion using departmental funding to cover expenses for colloquia without any oversight. This practice enables faculty to freely promulgate their political agendas and control the degree to which students are presented with alternative views and critiques. Piterberg has been labeled "an avant-garde radical who harangues campus demonstrations, endorses petitions and teaches a course in post-and anti-Zionism."

http://www.masada2000.org/Ilan-Pappe.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:50 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:08 AM

Like I said..."

You mean 'As I said...'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:44 PM

A book worth reading....

Palestinian Walks: Notes on a Vanishing Landscape by Raja Shehadeh, published by Profile books

Ian Black, the Guardian's Middle East editor
reviews


'Shehadeh, the author of several other acclaimed (and more optimistic) memoirs, has not produced a guidebook to rambling and hiking in the Holy Land: there are no routes up mountains or recommendations of cosy pubs in lonely valleys, no sketches of the stone shelters built by farmers to store their crops or shelter their sheep. But, like the poet Mahmoud Darwish, he conjures up something of what has been lost, and is still being lost, to the Palestinians - and what that means.

Tellingly, the Arabic word "sarha" - a walk or roam - derives from the verb used for cattle grazing freely on pasture. Shehadeh's musings as he anxiously negotiates the changing landscape - isolated Palestinian enclaves, Israeli checkpoints and an ever-expanding network of settler-only bypass roads, and finally the "separation wall" - give new meaning to the "right to roam" that most in the west rightly take for granted'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:46 AM

Ilan Pappe is a very well respected Israeli historian of the roots of the Israeli state.He is now working as a professor in Britain.His book on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land is a devastating account of the Nakbha [catastrophe ] and infinitely preferable to the zionist guff churned out as an apologia for the war crimes committed during the past 60 years.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:36 AM

Someone said the article I posted yesterday was a more serious indictment of the Zionist leadership than it was of the Palestinians.

Actually, the article is not an indictment of either side. It is a look at a book that examines a relatively unknown facet of the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:08 AM

Like I said...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:33 PM

Poor baby will be complaing about personal attacks, won't you Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Ghost of Electricity, that copy/paste you posted looks like a far more serious indictment of the Zionist leadership than it does of the Palestinians.

And let's not foget that Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, was released from prison and installed in his position of power by a Zionist. I would suggest that the reason this was done was because the Zionist leadership knew that fomenting violence would do far more to serve their agenda than allowing things to resolve themselves peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I notice two different essential arguments coming from those who disagree with what I have been saying, and what a few others have been saying in threads about Israel/Palestine.

One argument is that Israel is not committing ethnic cleansing and wants to allow the Palestinians to have a state of their own, and the other is that the Palestinian homeland is in Jordan.

I think it would be instructive for those who believe that Israel is not committing ethnic cleansing and does not have the ultimate goal of removing all of the Palestinians from occupied Palestine to pay attention to the arguments made by those who are saying that Jordan is the Palestinian homeland. Because to me, this looks like not only an awareness that the removal of the Palestinians is the goal, but also approval of that goal.

(And now I anticipate another gratuitous snipe from the Mudcatter with the ironic screen name.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 21 May 08 - 01:01 PM

This article is by Sheldon Kirshner:

Zionist movement was aided by Palestinians
Thursday, 22 May 2008

It goes without saying that Palestinian Arabs were opposed to Zionism. But from the moment they mounted a concerted campaign to fight it, the Palestinians split into two warring camps, much to the benefit of the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine.

The mainstream camp, led by Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, could not reconcile itself to the Zionist project, whose ultimate goal was Jewish statehood. The accommodationist camp, which was identified with his bitter rival, the Nashashibi family, was pragmatic and open to coexistence with the Zionists, believing that they were simply too strong to be defeated.

This divergence of views had major ramifications. The accommodationists, largely consisting of regional leaders who had forged ties with the Yishuv and resented Husseini's intransigent leadership, aided the Zionists politically, economically and even militarily. When nation-wide fighting broke out in November 1947 and escalated after five Arab armies invaded Israel in May 1948, two important developments occurred, both of which tilted the balance of power in favour of Jews.

First, relatively few Palestinian Arabs joined the armed struggle to throttle the Yishuv. Second, in violation of national leadership edicts, some Arab villages reached non-aggression pacts with their Jewish neighbours.

Not surprisingly, Palestinian scholars have glossed over this sensitive topic, and strangely enough, many Israeli historians have made light of it. Hillel Cohen, an Israeli research fellow at the Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University, tackles it head on in a path-blazing book, Army of Shadows: Palestinian Collaboration With Zionism, 1917-1948 (University of California Press).

Cohen is familiar with the broad terrain of the subject, having written two related books, The Present Absentee: Palestinian Refugees in Israel Since 1948 and Good Arabs: The Israeli Security Service and the Israeli Arabs. Cohen's current work, based on declassified Zionist, Arab and British archives, illuminates the issue.

As he points out, Zionist diplomacy only seriously began to consider relations with the Arab inhabitants of Palestine following the British occupation in 1917. Until then, the Zionist movement concentrated on cultivating ties with the Ottoman Empire, which ruled Palestine, and currying favour with European powers such as Britain, Germany and France, which had vital interests in the Middle East and might be of help in furthering the Jewish cause in Palestine.

The Balfour Declaration, issued by the British government on Nov. 2, 1917, galvanized the Palestinians, prompting them to form nationalist organizations, mount anti-Zionist demonstrations and carry out attacks against Jews.

In response, Zionist leaders – spearheaded by Chaim Margaliot Kalvarisky, a land purchaser for the Jewish Colonization Association, and Col. Frederick Kisch, a retired British intelligence officer and head of the Zionist executive's political department – devised a counter-strategy. Chaim Weizmann, the president of the World Zionist Organization, was also involved in this campaign.

Underpinned by the naive assumption that an authentic Arab national movement in Palestine did not exist, it sought to create a cooperative Palestinian leadership, deepen already existing fissures in Palestinian society by fomenting conflict between Christians and Muslims, and develop a cadre of Palestinian newspaper writers to laud the advantages of co-operation with Zionism.

The Palestinians who chose co-operation were driven by various motives. Some assumed that the Zionist movement was an arm of the British Mandate and, therefore, should be cultivated. Still other Palestinians, particularly land dealers and job seekers, were animated by personal gain. Palestinians who considered themselves nationalists but who were opposed to the Husseini leadership were also targeted by Zionist strategists. Palestinians who had Jewish friends and who were repelled by the violence of Palestinians also tended to favour co-operation.

With this in mind, Kalvarisky established the Muslim National Associations, a loose network of Palestinian political parties. But the concept did not work, and after more than a decade, he abandoned the idea altogether.

Playing on old animosities, Zionists courted Bedouin tribes, which at first did not identify with the Palestinians. Indeed, some Bedouins regarded the Palestinian national movement as a threat.

Efforts to recruit the Druze of Mount Carmel were undertaken as well. Officially, the Druze community remained neutral, but in practice, Druze fighters drifted into both the Jewish and Arab camps. As for Christians, they played a marginal role in developments.

Zionists tried to shape Arab public opinion by subsidizing Palestinian newspapers in Jaffa and Jerusalem and by recruiting writers who would sing the praises of Arab-Jewish co-operation and brotherhood. But as Cohen suggests, this strategy was only partially successful.

Since land purchase was a key objective of the Yishuv, Zionist agents cast their gaze at Palestinian landowners, such as the Abu Ghosh family, and absentee Arab landlords residing in neighbouring countries.   

Palestinian nationalists tried to block these transactions by various means. Yet by 1948, the Zionist movement had succeeded in buying seven per cent of the land in Palestine.

Palestinians bitterly opposed to such transactions did not sit quietly. In 1925, the first fatwa forbidding the sale of land to Jews was issued. But as Cohen observes, it was left to the British to impose effective restrictions on land sales.

On another front, the Zionist movement tried to recruit Palestinian public figures and informers. The first Palestinian Arab accused of collaboration, a village elder from the Mt. Hebron area, was murdered in 1929. The mayor of Haifa, Hasan Shukri, a symbol of coexistence, survived an attempt on his life.

The Zionist movement attempted to forge economic links with the Palestinians, since they constituted a natural market for goods produced in the Jewish sector. But with the 1929 riots, the Arab Executive Committee declared an economic boycott, calling on Palestinian consumers to buy solely Arab products.

Shortly after the United Nations passed the 1947 Palestine partition resolution, the Higher Arab Committee, headed by the Husseini clan, issued a declaration urging Palestinians to continue the boycott and "to consider any connection with (Jews) as a severe crime and a great betrayal."

Arabs were strongly urged to take up arms and fight for the homeland. Yet during the 1948 war, the majority of able-bodied Palestinian men did not heed that call. In some cases, village elders refused to allow Arab fighters to deploy in their villages.

As the war raged, Arab informers provided Zionist intelligence operatives with valuable political and military information, Arabs turned over British police stations to Zionist forces and Arab merchants sold food to Jews.

It was also not uncommon for Palestinian Arabs to sell weapons to the Zionist side. These arms merchants sold their wares to the Haganah and the more militant Etzel and Lehi militias, their only motive being profit, Cohen says.

Israel won the War of Independence due to a number of compelling factors, notably   superior military organization and higher morale.

But as Cohen notes, covert Palestinian co-operation with the Zionist movement was certainly a contributing factor in Israel's seminal victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:23 PM

SSDD from "Guest, Albert".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:15 PM

To Arnie
Wll I think you are wrong in your prediction that Israel will soon sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians.

It is far more likely that Israel will continue to allow Zionist armed paramilitary and settler groups to build more and more fortified townships on Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank,which Mudcat users will recall is not,and has never been,a part of Israel.

Israel ,which is under the control of a right wing hawkish government seems intent on carving up the West Bank into many small "bantustans" ringed by Israeli military forces ,armed checkpoints and with movement between these bantustans strictly controlled and regulated.And of course the huge Apartheid Wall which extends for hundreds of miles through Palestinian land cutting off Palestinian farmers from their fields and orchards and villages from their hinterlands ,is part of this programme of Israeli control of the Palestinian people and the theft of their land.

Gaza and Lebanon seem to be the rock on which the Israeli military is blunting itself.The Israeli military took a beating two summers agoin Lebanon and were outthought and outfought by the Guerillas led by Hezbollah.Likewise in Gaza ,despite the illegal and barbaric sustained attacks on its civilian population the Israeli military has yet to make Hamas submit.

In Northern Ireland the trial is about to start of anti war campaigners who closed the arms manufacturer ,Raytheon, for a day during the Israeli invasion.They occupied their Derry office in protest at the supplying of military equipment to Israel by Raytheon.
I would imagine that world wide support for the Palestinian cause is helping to sustain morale in both Gaza and on the West Bank.
albert