BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:30 PM

July 30th, 2008
Report eyes Palestinian infighting
Posted: 12:20 PM ET

(CNN) — Infighting between the two main Palestinian factions has led to arbitrary arrests, torture and abuse of detainees by both sides, Human Rights Watch said in a report released Wednesday.

Fatah and Hamas "have carried out a wave of unlawful arrests against opponents in recent days," and "Hamas forces physically abused some of the people they apprehended," the group said in its 113-page report.

Security forces on both sides act with impunity, the report says. "Neither authority is known to have prosecuted any of its own forces for the serious abuses committed during the heavy fighting in Gaza in June 2007, including summary executions, maiming and torture," it charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

What further punishment shall we mete out to the Palestinians than is already been done? Shall we kill them all? That's about all that's left.

Conversely, we could just leave them alone and let them get themselves sorted out, instead of keeping our big ugly fascist jack boots solidly planted on their collective necks and killing them slowly as we are doing now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

Also, if anyone thinks they can claim moral high ground if they justify their human rights abuses against Palestinians by saying it's ok since the Palestinians do it to themselves also, they are quite mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

So, Israelis treat Palestinians like Palestinians treat Palestinians.



I seem to be repeating myself. Perhaps we can ALSO hold the PALESTINIANS who treat others ( BOTH Palestinian and Israeli) as less than human at fault, as well?


Or do you only apply human standards of behaviour to Israelis? I had not thought so...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

The Palestinians are treated collectively by Israelis far worse than Israelis are treated collectively by Palestinians. The numbers of dead, wounded, tortured, and maimed Palestinians (at the hands of Israelis) are proof enough of this, as well as the collective punishment that is being waged against all Palestinians by the government of Israel.

Here is a particularly poignant story...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/israelandthepalestinians.civilliberties

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

So, Israelis treat Palestinians like Palestinians treat Palestinians.

Too bad the Palestinaians can't treat the Israelis half as well. ( Noting the dead bodies of returned kidnap victims, random rocket attacks, bombers blowing up buses and children's parties, etc)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM

Palestinians just can't seem to catch a break. They're routinely tortured by Israelis as well...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/07/israel

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

Report: Torture widespread in Palestinian jails
By KARIN LAUB and DALIA NAMMARI, Associated Press Writers
1 hour, 21 minutes ago



RAMALLAH, West Bank - One detainee told of being beaten with pipes and having a screwdriver rammed into his back. Another said interrogators tied his hands behind his back then lifted him into the air by his bound wrists.

Two human rights groups on Monday decried widespread torture of political opponents by bitter Palestinian rivals Hamas and Fatah, and Associated Press interviews with three victims and a doctor backed the reports of abuse.

The findings emerged as the two sides carried out fresh arrest sweeps in the West Bank and Gaza — highlighting deep tensions in the Palestinian territories after a flare-up in violence over the weekend.

In the West Bank on Monday, the security forces of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas rounded up more than 50 suspected Hamas supporters, including mosque preachers and intellectuals, in retaliation for a similar sweep of Fatah loyalists in Gaza, set off by a bombing that killed five Hamas members Friday.

Hamas violently seized power in Gaza in June 2007, leaving the Islamic militant group in charge of the coastal territory and Abbas' forces controlling the West Bank.

The Palestinian human rights group Al Haq said Monday that arbitrary arrests of political opponents have been common since Hamas' takeover of Gaza, with each side trying to defend its turf.

"Arrests for political reasons haven't stopped for a second," Al Haq director Shawan Jabarin told reporters. He estimated that before the latest sweeps, more than 1,000 people had been seized by each side.

An estimated 20 to 30 percent of the detainees suffered torture, including severe beatings and being tied up in painful positions, said Jabarin, citing sworn statements from 150 detainees.

He said three died in detention in Gaza and one in the West Bank.

"The use of torture is dramatically up," added Fred Abrahams, a senior researcher for Human Rights Watch, a U.S.-based group that is releasing its own report on abuse this week.

Jabarin said that while he had no proof of an official torture policy, he believed political leaders were indirectly encouraging abuse by looking the other way.

Abbas' prime minister, Salam Fayyad, acknowledged "shortcomings," but said human rights violations have decreased. "I'm not defending anyone, but I can assure you that we have treated flaws and don't allow violations. The upcoming reports will be better," Fayyad said.

In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum acknowledged "mistakes" were made by the Hamas forces, but said that unlike in the West Bank, violators were increasingly being punished. He also accused the Fayyad government of trying to destroy Hamas in the West Bank with U.S. backing.

Human Rights Watch said Abbas' forces need to come under closer scrutiny because of the international support they enjoy. Funding of Abbas' forces should be linked to an improvement in the human rights record, Human Rights Watch said.

Two branches of the Palestinian security, the national forces and the civil police, receive training from the U.S. and Europe, respectively. Neither force was cited in the Al Haq report as being abusive, and in both cases, human rights training is part of the curriculum.

"The Palestinians themselves are looking to restructure the security force into a more accountable, transparent force," said Colin Smith, who leads the European effort.

The U.S. State Department said it had not seen the reports. "However, claims such as this obviously concern us greatly," said spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos. "This is why it's so important to establish a situation where we can provide for the security of all Palestinians."

On the streets, spiraling Hamas-Fatah tensions are setting the tone. The latest round began Friday evening, when a car bomb killed five Hamas members and a 6-year-old girl in Gaza City. Hamas blamed Fatah, which denied involvement, and rounded up some 200 Fatah supporters.

On Monday, Fatah struck back. Abbas' forces set up roadblocks across the West Bank city of Nablus, checking motorists' names against lists of wanted people. Intellectual Abdel Sattar Qassem, a frequent Abbas critic, was taken from his home, his family said.

Nathera al-Qouni stood outside Nablus' Jneid prison, waiting to hand clothes to her 35-year-old son Mustafa al-Qouni, who was arrested at a checkpoint. "He is not Hamas, he is just a mosque preacher," she said.

Al Haq described methods used by interrogators in both territories. Commonly, detainees' heads are covered by sacks and their hands tied behind their backs. They are made to stand for hours. Those who move risked beatings on arms, legs and the soles of feet. Other methods included threats, humiliation and isolation in tiny cells.

Three ex-detainees — two from the West Bank village of Salem and one from Gaza — gave similar accounts to the AP.

Jabour, a 33-year-old construction worker, said he was detained on Nov. 17 by military intelligence in Nablus, near Salem. He said he was asked where he had hidden the automatic rifle of his late brother, a member of the Hamas military wing killed by Israel in 2002.

Jabour insisted he had no ties to Hamas and did not know of a weapon.

He said that for the next six days, he was beaten severely with sticks, pipes and fists, including on the soles of his feet. His legs became so swollen and his feet so sore that he couldn't stand, he said.

Jabour said he was taken to Nablus' Rafidiyeh Hospital after an interrogator rammed a screwdriver into his back, making him pass out.

Dr. Marwan Jayousi, who examined Jabour, told the AP that his legs were heavily bruised and very swollen. "There were a lot of marks of beatings by sticks, on his back, on his scapula, shoulders, and it was painful," the physician said.

Jabour was released without charge several days later.

Hosni Jabara, 50, also from Salem, said he was arrested by the Preventive Security Service in Nablus on Jan. 28, and was tied up in painful positions off and on for 32 days.

At times, he was pulled off the ground by a rope hanging from the ceiling and attached to his hands tied behind his back, Jabara said. He said he told interrogators he's a proud member of Hamas, but that he has no knowledge of weapons, and he eventually was released.

In Gaza, a Fatah supporter said he was beaten severely by Hamas agents for several hours, until he lost consciousness and had blood streaming down his face. After initially agreeing to be quoted and photographed, he withdrew permission, saying he had received new threats from Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

Israel, Hamas trade cows for calm as part of truce

By KARIN LAUB and IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writers
Wed Jul 9, 3:31 AM ET



SUFA CROSSING, Gaza Strip - An Israel-Hamas truce has boiled down to a simple trade-off: For a day of calm, Israel adds five truckloads of cows and 200 tons of cement to the barest basics it ships to Gaza, but rocket fire from the territory reseals the border for a day.

Since the cease-fire deal was reached nearly three weeks ago, the trickle of extra goods has barely made a difference in the daily lives of 1.4 million Gazans, who have been cut off from the world since the violent Hamas takeover a year ago. Gazans are struggling with frequent blackouts, soaring food prices and fuel rationing of five gallons per driver a week.

The truce remains shaky and the two sides seem unable to move forward. Still, weary residents cling to the hope that this deal will stick where many others failed.

"We need to breathe," said Gaza trucker Shawki Abu Shanab, 40, who stretches scarce diesel for his flatbed truck with motor and cooking oil and has no spare parts to fix worn tires and broken lights.

Under the Egyptian-brokered deal, Gaza's Hamas rulers are to halt rocket and mortar fire on Israeli border communities and Israel is to increase the flow of goods into Gaza. Israel had largely sealed the territory after the Hamas takeover, allowing only basic food and medicine to enter. Later, an Israeli soldier captured by Gaza militants two years ago is to be freed in a prisoner swamp under the deal.

On Tuesday, each side blamed the other for lack of progress.

Hamas has not reined in all militants, particularly those from rival groups, and the Israeli army says 15 rockets and mortars have been fired since the truce took effect June 19, including three mortars Tuesday. Lt. Peter Lerner, an Israeli military spokesman, said Hamas' failure is slowing a broader opening of the crossings.

Hamas says Israel closed border crossings for seven of 17 days of post-truce operations. "The calm is not shaky. The Israeli commitment to the calm is shaky," said Said Siyam, a senior Hamas official, before heading to Cairo for more truce talks with Egyptian officials.

And despite some attempts to defuse tensions, both sides have stuck to pre-truce behavior.

In Gaza, an explosion went off Tuesday in a Hamas military training camp, an apparent "work accident" that killed two militants and appeared to confirm Israeli fears that the group is using a lull to rearm. In the West Bank city of Nablus on Tuesday, Israel declared a shopping mall a Hamas front and ordered it shut down by August.

In Gaza, events of recent days illustrated how easily the truce can be derailed.

On Monday, cargo shipments appeared to be moving according to plan at the makeshift Sufa crossing between Israel and Gaza. In the morning, Israeli trucks delivered the usual staples — fruit, dairy, frozen meat — as well as a post-truce delivery of 200 tons of cement and about 100 beef cows.

Palestinian forklift operators, wearing bright yellow vests and with special security clearance, unloaded the cargo, drove it into a no-man's land and dropped it off there. After the Israelis withdrew, dozens of Gaza trucks approached and picked up the cargo. Because of the intense heat, cows were handled first, then frozen foods, dairies and other perishables.

The Gaza truckers had been waiting for hours at Sufa before they got the signal to go ahead. During their down time, they dozed on blankets in the shade of their trucks, played cards or smoked. By mid-afternoon, news spread that militants had fired a mortar shell toward the border.

The truckers were able to pick up their cargo that afternoon, but by Tuesday morning Sufa was closed — the expected response to the mortar shell. Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, the architect of the truce, called Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak and asked him to reopen Sufa.

Barak relented, and the crossing reopened Tuesday afternoon. Two more mortar shells were fired that day, the army said, but Sufa was open Wednesday. It was not clear whether Israel was changing its policy or meeting a one-time request by the Egyptians.

Gaza militants, who usually rush to claim responsibility for rocket and mortar fire, did not do so in most of the post-truce attacks. Hamas police thwarted several border attacks, but it's not clear whether the Islamic militants, who are in tight control of Gaza, are unable or unwilling to rein in renegades.

In the meantime, Gaza's business people describe the new shipments as tiny drops in an ocean of need. Faysal Shawa, head of the Gaza Businessmen's Association, said some 4,000 businesses and workshops have been forced to shut down because of Israel's ban on Gaza trade, wiping out some 100,000 jobs.

Construction sites remain idle and the renewed cement shipments are at best enough for small jobs.

Osama Khayel, head of the Contractors Association, said building projects worth $245 million have been on hold for the past year. He noted that Gaza needs 4,000 tons of cement a day, or 20 times the current quantity coming in, and key construction materials like steel rods are still lacking.

Abu Shanab, the Gaza trucker who earns just $30 dollars for a day's work at Sufa, said the militants need to start thinking about ordinary Gazans.

"We ask them to take into consideration that we live in a very bad situation," said the father of eight. "If they fire one rocket, it means we go backwards."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:49 PM

"I guess that means the US needs to start blockading Israel and not send it any more money."


                     I would agree that the US should not send Israel any more money, but why waste resources on a blockade?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:30 PM

Washington Post

An Unwelcome Hero
Hezbollah bargains for a child-killer's freedom.

Monday, July 7, 2008; Page A12

FAR BE IT from us to second-guess the Israeli government's decision to trade Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah in the July 2006 incident that triggered a bloody 34-day war between Israel and the Lebanese Shiite organization. Many in Israel felt that ending the agony of the soldiers' families outweighed the risk that a trade would simply encourage more terrorism and hostage-taking. Many disagreed -- though in the end the Israeli cabinet's vote in favor was a lopsided 22 to 3. The exchange is now expected to take place in the coming week. Perhaps Prime Minister Ehud Olmert thought it was time to empty his jails of their last Lebanese inmates, so as to deprive Hezbollah of that perennial complaint. Or perhaps the prisoner exchange fits into a wider diplomatic strategy that includes incipient talks with Syria, an offer of talks with Lebanon and a shaky truce with Hamas. This turn of events does, however, tell us a lot about Hezbollah and about those within Lebanon's political culture who either support it or can't quite bring themselves to oppose it.

The story begins in 1979, when four terrorists based in Lebanon and affiliated with Abu Abbas landed in northern Israel, on a mission ostensibly aimed at protesting the recent Egyptian-Israeli peace agreement. The raid quickly went awry, and Israeli police cornered the terrorists. Hiding among rocks on the beach, one of the infiltrators, a 16-year-old named Samir Kuntar, proceeded to shoot and kill one of his hostages, then took the man's 4-year-old daughter and smashed her head between his rifle butt and a boulder until she was dead, too. Hiding elsewhere, the mother in this family covered her 2-year-old's mouth so tightly to prevent her sobs from being heard that she accidentally suffocated the child. Israel captured Mr. Kuntar and sentenced him to four life terms.


If anyone ever deserved the title "baby-killer," it is Samir Kuntar. Yet his freedom has been a popular demand in Lebanon and the cause of Lebanon-based gunslingers for almost three decades. Abbas's gang hijacked the Achille Lauro in 1985 in a failed effort to win Mr. Kuntar's release. After Abbas faded into semi-retirement in Saddam Hussein's Baghdad, Hezbollah took up the Kuntar cause, attempting to get Israel to swap him for bodies of Israelis killed in Hezbollah raids.

Great changes must take place across the Middle East before a lasting peace can be achieved. Israel must make territorial compromises and foster a dignified future for the Palestinians. But attitudes among Israel's enemies must be transformed as well. A good place to start would be to declare that people such as Samir Kuntar deserve to rot in prison, no matter what the religion or nationality of the children they kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM

Nothing to add now, but noticed we were stuck on 666 posts, and I know that is an evil number....The Mark of the BEAST. Now it's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

'A fragile eight-day-old truce between Israel and Palestinian groups in the Gaza Strip appears to have been violated repeatedly by both sides.

A UN source says Israeli troops have opened fire on Palestinian farmers several times, causing injuries....

Palestinian militants have also broken the ceasefire, firing rockets and mortars into Israeli territory

Meanwhile, Israel has kept the Gaza border closed for a third day.

The authorities have allowed fuel into the Gaza Strip, but blocked all other supplies including humanitarian and commercial goods....
..The EU funds the deliveries of fuel to the power station.'

BBC report today

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Israel's response to the rockets was to tighten the blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM

If Hamas is going to be held responsible for what all of the people in Gaza do, then conversely, Israel is also responsible for all of the violence committed by settlers against Palestinians. I guess that means the US needs to start blockading Israel and not send it any more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

Israeli reaction to those Truce violations CarolC has been what?

What do you think the reaction would be in most countries if rockets and mortars were fired at them across their borders 2300+ so far this year. Maybe we should try it out and see what Iran's reaction would be, after all thats where most of the ordinance that is being fired into Israel originates from.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 11:43 AM

"If Hamas is the government of Gaza, then they are responsible for controling those "criminal " elements that are launching the rockets."

Christ, you'd think they'd do everything in their power to enforce their people to honor the truce, if only so they can re-arm in peace. [Irony intended].

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

"Hamas negotiated a truce, and they have kept the truce."


If Hamas is the government of Gaza, then they are responsible for controling those "criminal " elements that are launching the rockets.

If they are not the government, then they should be removed and the rightful government installed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:36 AM

Hamas negotiated a truce, and they have kept the truce.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

Rocket hits Israel, second violation of Gaza truce

By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
28 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - Gaza militants fired two rockets into southern Israel on Thursday, causing no injuries but undermining a shaky, week-old truce meant to halt a violent cycle of attacks and harsh Israeli reprisals.

It was the second breach of the Egyptian-mediated truce by Palestinian militants. The Israeli military said one rocket landed in an open field on a communal farm, but would not say where the other one landed.

The Israeli government had no immediate response to the latest rocket fire, but security officials said Defense Minister Ehud Barak convened a meeting of security officials to decide how to respond.

Skepticism about the truce's ability to hold was widespread even before it took effect June 19.

The initial objective of the deal was to halt the rockets and mortars that have bombarded southern Israel for years and ease Israel's bruising blockade of Gaza.

Israel resealed its cargo crossings with Gaza on Tuesday after militants fired three rockets into southern Israel. The passages have remained closed since then, cutting off shipments of basic supplies that had been increased slightly as part of the cease-fire deal.

Before the rocket attack Thursday, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri denounced the resealing of the border as a "severe breach of the calm agreement."

Hamas, which has ruled Gaza for the past year, has said it will enforce the truce, but not confront militants from other groups who violate the deal.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent group linked to the rival Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for Thursday's attack. In a text message sent to reporters, it said "the truce must include the West Bank and all sorts of aggression must stop."

The first truce infraction took place after Israel killed two Palestinians in a raid in the West Bank city of Nablus, including a militant leader. During the truce talks, Israel resisted militants' demands to extend the cease-fire to the West Bank.

The West Bank is ruled by moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who lost control of Gaza to the violent Islamic militant Hamas a year ago. Israel is engaged in peace talks with Abbas, but carries out raids in the West Bank because it is not satisfied with the crackdown on militant groups there.

The West Bank and Gaza lie on opposite sides of Israel.

The Gaza cease-fire is meant to avert an Israeli invasion of the territory, which Israel evacuated in 2005 after a 38-year military occupation. Attacks on southern Israel from Gaza increased after the Israeli withdrawal and stepped up further after Hamas violently overran Gaza.

Since the Hamas takeover, more than 400 Palestinians, including dozens of civilians, and seven Israelis have been killed in tit-for-tat fighting.

The rocket assault Thursday came as an Israeli envoy headed to Egypt to meet with Egyptian officials on the final stage of the agreement — a swap of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners for an Israeli soldier Hamas has held captive for two years. Israel has balked at Hamas' demands, saying its list of prisoners is full of people involved in deadly attacks on Israelis.

Hamas also has demanded that Israel reopen Gaza's strategic border crossing with Egypt in the final phase of the six-month truce deal.

The Rafah crossing has been sealed since the Hamas takeover, confining Gaza's 1.4 million people to the tiny seaside territory and preventing them from receiving infusions of goods from Egypt. Israel has said it wouldn't open Rafah until the soldier returns home.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

"..adds to a rather long list of agreements entered into in good faith by the Israelis only to see the other side renege on terms, conditions and promises made."

As I noted a few days ago, Teribus, no good deed goes unpunished.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 09:56 AM

Recipes aside, here is a Palestinian 'fact' that is par for the course and not surprisingly had very poor odds at the bookies:

Israeli Government and Hamas negotiate a "Truce" with regard to Gaza supposedly to ease the suffering of the "Palestinian" people unfortunate enough to be under the governance of Hamas in Gaza. Within days the "Truce" is broken by guess who? Yep got it in one "Palestinian" Arabs from inside Gaza.

This just adds to a rather long list of agreements entered into in good faith by the Israelis only to see the other side renege on terms, conditions and promises made.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:24 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:23 PM

Wack-A-Mole!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

It's fairly obvious that when people get into the habit of substituting personal attacks for actual arguments, it becomes an entrenched behavior that is not easily let go of. But thinking people can see them for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

Thou protesteth too much. Verily, had your last post come from anybody else, I would have thought them referring to CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

Some people think their interpretations of other people's arguments can serve as a substitute for other people's actual arguments. This is not the case. The interpretations (in many cases, deliberate distortions) that some people like to place on my arguments, are not my actual arguments, but are in fact, creations of the minds of those making the interpretations.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:56 PM

Ah Carolc, you have no sense of allusion or analogy. CarolC makes an argument; X refutes the argument. CarolC moves the argument over here, to be refuted by someone else or even X. Now CarolC moves her argument over there. Then somewhere else, and some where else again. But she seldom actually addresses the original refutation. Hence Wack-A-Mole. If I offend you, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

I was specifically referring to the rockets that were launched since the cease fire was put into effect.

Israelis are hardly experiencing the same punishments that the Gazans are experiencing. Nobody is blockading them and preventing them from getting needed food, energy, water, and other resources, or preventing them from traveling from the areas where they live.


I notice that some people still think personal attacks constitute an actual argument. Hint: personal attacks are not an argument. They are a rather ignorant kind substitute for an argument, and are designed to silence those with whom the attacker disagrees. Maybe people think if they pummel me enough I will give up. I think six years of postings on this subject ought to set them straight on that. Or maybe they just enjoy abusing other people, which I guess wouldn't be too surprising in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:17 PM

CarolC/Wack-A-Mole...same game. Ya never know where she'll pop up next.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

"If we're going to draw equivalences, perhaps we should say that the students who launched that rocket should receive the same punishment from Hamas as what the government of Israel gives to Palestinians who launch rockets, and that the people of Israel should receive the same collective punishment from Hamas as what the people in Gaza are experiencing from the government of Israel in response to rocket attacks. "


What, you mean getting fired on by missles when they least expect it? Oh- they already ARE....

Except that Israel targets the ones wioth missiles, and Hamas encouraged Palestinians targets... everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:44 PM

Israel usually takes care of it before Hamas ever gets a chance to do anything about it. However, Hamas is not rewarding or lionizing the people who are launching the rockets. Saying they are is just idle gossip...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080624/world/israel_palestinians

Hamas, the militant Islamic group that rules Gaza, promised to rein in the Iran-and Syria-backed faction that carried out the rocket attacks and pledged to remain committed to the truce that went into effect June 19 and urged restraint by all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

"Hamas doesn't need to punish anyone for launching rocket attacks. Israel is kind enough to take care of that for them."

Perhaps if Palestinian authorities punished rocket launchers, and homicide bomber planners, and snipers, instead of rewarding and lionizing them, Israel would not need to punish them...maybe hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:30 PM

No point, in particular, just posting news items, like other people are doing in this thread.


Hamas doesn't need to punish anyone for launching rocket attacks. Israel is kind enough to take care of that for them. Not only that, they even are kind enough to collectively punish all of the people in Gaza for what the people who launch rocket attacks are doing.

If we're going to draw equivalences, perhaps we should say that the students who launched that rocket should receive the same punishment from Hamas as what the government of Israel gives to Palestinians who launch rockets, and that the people of Israel should receive the same collective punishment from Hamas as what the people in Gaza are experiencing from the government of Israel in response to rocket attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM

He should get the same punishment that Hamas is giving to those palestinbians that are launching rockets at Israel....


But I suppose you would not think he deserves money, fame, and a parade.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM

CarolC--If your point is that that settler should receive more punishment, agreed.
If your post is a rebuttal to beardedbruce's, a justification of IJ's breaking the Gaza truce, you're way off base. The student's attack took place nearly two weeks before the Truce went into (non)effect.
I also note that before the Gaza truce was breached, Israel had already loosened the blockade, allowing supplies to enter Gaza. No good deed goes unpunished, as is said.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:15 AM

He built the rocket himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:03 AM

Musta bought it from Hizbullah. Guidance system was crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:43 PM

Settler fires rocket in West Bank

I notice the settler who did this was only expelled from the seminary, but he was not charged with any crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

Rockets hit Israel, which says truce broken

By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jun 24, 12:20 PM ET



JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants on Tuesday fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel, the first such attack since a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza militants took effect last week.

Israel condemned the attack as a "gross violation" of the truce, but did not say whether it would retaliate.

The barrage wounded two people and capped a day of violence that presented the truce with its first serious test.

Just before midnight, Palestinian militants fired a mortar shell into an empty area in southern Israel. And in a pre-dawn raid, Israeli troops killed two Palestinians in the West Bank city of Nablus.

Islamic Jihad, a small armed group backed by Syria and Iran, claimed responsibility for the rocket fire. Although the West Bank is not included in the truce, the group said the Nablus raid had soured the atmosphere of calm.

"We cannot keep our hands tied when this is happening to our brothers in the West Bank," the militant group said.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the rocket attack came because of "Israeli provocation this morning" and added that Hamas was "committed to the calm." He said Hamas will talk with other factions and make sure they are committed, too.

The Egyptian-brokered truce went into effect Thursday. The immediate aim was to end fighting that has killed seven Israelis and more than 400 Palestinians — many of them civilians — since Hamas gained control of Gaza a year ago.

It also obliges Israel to ease a punishing blockade of the coastal strip.

In a final stage, the sides are to address Hamas' demand to reopen a major border passage between Gaza and Egypt and Israel's insistence that Hamas release an Israeli soldier it has held for two years.

The cease-fire is meant to avert an Israeli invasion of Gaza, a tiny, impoverished seaside territory of 1.4 million people that Israel evacuated in 2005 after a 38-year military occupation.

The deal extends beyond Hamas to all militant groups operating in Gaza but does not include the West Bank.

Egypt acted as middleman for the six-month truce because Israel, like much of the international community, shuns Hamas for refusing to recognize Israel or renounce violence.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert flew to Egypt on Tuesday for talks with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Upon entering the meeting in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik, Mubarak said the two would discuss efforts to release the Israeli soldier, Sgt. Gilad Schalit. Olmert hailed Egyptian efforts to end attacks on Israel from Gaza.

Israel has pressed Egypt to crack down on arms smuggling from Egypt's Sinai desert into Gaza.

On Tuesday, Olmert was quoted in the London-based Al-Sharq Al-Awsat daily as saying that if the smuggling did not end, then Israel would consider the cease-fire agreement violated, and "we will be compelled to military action."

Early Tuesday, Israeli troops killed a senior Islamic Jihad commander in a raid in the West Bank town of Nablus.

A neighbor said a Palestinian bystander was also shot to death by troops when he opened the door of his apartment during the raid. The Israeli military said the man was a militant killed during a gunbattle with troops.

Islamic Jihad said the commander of its northern West Bank operations, Tarek Juma, was killed in the operation.

The military said Juma was targeted because he was planning an attack on Israel. Troops found explosive devices and munitions in his apartment, it said.

In Germany, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad condemned the operation.

Fayyad, whose government is trying to negotiate a peace deal with Israel, has said continuing military operations are undermining efforts to have Palestinian security forces restore law and order in the West Bank.

This was "an example of the kind of activity that has to stop and has to stop immediately and promptly if we are going to succeed in providing security to our people," said Fayyad, who is attending an international conference aimed at bolstering his security forces. "There was absolutely no exchange of information on this particular incident."

Also Tuesday, the Hamas military wing took responsibility for a shooting in the West Bank last week that injured three Israeli hikers. The claim was sent in a text message to Gaza journalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

Headlines from today's Jerusalem Post online:

A.
"Haniyeh: Hamas won't halt smuggling into Gaza
Hamas leader denies committing to stop weapons-trafficking as part of cease-fire deal, says his gov't is incapable of such action."

Comment: What's a cease-fire for if not to re-arm, anyway?.

B.
"3 hikers wounded in West Bank attack
Two masked Palestinian terrorists fired at five Israelis from close range near Neveh Tsuf."

Comment: Well, that's not covered by the Hamas cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

"If anti-semitism is unacceptable, then so is anti-whatever-the-heck-you-call-it-when-it's-the-Palestinians-who-are-being-attacked in general as a people."


That's fairy easy LH. It's anti Semitism.

That's what makes this situation doubly sad.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:18 PM

Well, hopefully the truce holds. Quite problematical.

What I really wanted to do when I came upon this thread---won't deign to call it a discussion given the diatribes.---was Carol C (and please don't feel any need to respond given the stricture you speak of)---Question: Other than your constant one sided comments (many--note I said many--not accurate) with reagrd to the Middle East are there any other obsessions--asided from your health care problems that might be something that this forum would not want to hear about?

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM

Washington Post


Truce in Gaza
A Middle East conflict is postponed.

Thursday, June 19, 2008; Page A18

ATRUCE between Israel and Hamas was to begin this morning in the Gaza Strip, ending daily barrages of rockets that have terrorized nearby Israeli towns as well as counterstrikes that have killed more than 350 Palestinians this year. In accepting the Egyptian-brokered deal, Israel embraced the least bad of the limited options it has for countering Hamas, which has been turning Gaza into a fortified base for advancing the cause of Islamist extremism in the region -- a cause it shares with Iran. For a while, Israeli civilians will be relieved from having to duck into bomb shelters, and Gazans will be better supplied with food and other essential goods. How long the peace lasts, and whether it does more good than harm, will depend on how well Israel and Hamas's moderate Palestinian rivals use the calm.

In political terms, Hamas is the immediate beneficiary of the deal -- one reason the government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was slow to agree to it. One year after it drove out the secular administration of President Mahmoud Abbas, the Islamist movement has consolidated control over Gaza and demonstrated that it can force Israel into acknowledging its authority. If a border crossing with Egypt is reopened, as the agreement contemplates, relatively normal life and commerce could resume in the territory. Mr. Abbas, who was already planning a visit to Gaza to discuss a rapprochement with Hamas's leadership, will now do so from a weaker position.

The strategy of both Israel and the United States has been to strengthen Mr. Abbas and his West Bank-based Palestinian Authority against Hamas, by matching a blockade of Gaza with measures to improve conditions in the West Bank and negotiations to create a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, little progress has been made on the second front -- though that is where the Bush administration has concentrated its effort. Israel has been reluctant to loosen its security grip on the West Bank and slow to dismantle even those Jewish settlements it has deemed illegal. While the peace negotiations have been conducted in secret since late last year, most public indications are that they have not advanced far.


At best, Mr. Olmert and Mr. Abbas would now press to complete a peace deal, so that the Palestinian president would have a tangible and attractive alternative to offer to Hamas's promise of endless "resistance" to the Jewish state. Some hope that an accord between the two Palestinian factions could give Mr. Abbas leeway to close the deal for statehood. Yet Mr. Olmert, who has been badly weakened by scandals, appears more interested in brokering a prisoner exchange with Hezbollah and in conducting long-shot peace talks with Lebanon and Syria than in making tough decisions about matters such as the future of Jerusalem. Both Israel and its Iranian-backed enemies are maneuvering for tactical advantage, trying to bolster their positions as they await a new U.S. president. They have not averted the major conflict that has threatened the region for the last couple of years -- only postponed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:01 PM

Surprise! SurPrize! Gotta get that last hit in.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

Rockets, airstrikes come hours before Gaza truce By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer
36 minutes ago



JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants fired 50 rockets and mortars toward Israel on Wednesday, and Israel responded with airstrikes in Gaza just hours before a truce was to take effect, illustrating how fragile the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas would be.

In another diplomatic initiative, Israel called on neighboring Lebanon to open peace negotiations — an overture that was quickly rejected by Lebanon's prime minister.

After a year of violence that has killed more than 400 Palestinians and seven Israelis, the leaders of both sides expressed hope a truce would succeed — but made clear they have little faith in their adversaries' commitment to the deal.

"I hope it will succeed. I believe there will be quiet in (Israel's) south," Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in a speech to philanthropists. But he also said he instructed his military "to prepare for any operation, short or long, that might be necessary" if the truce breaks down as several previous ones have.

In Gaza, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said the truce would ease the lives of Gazans, but success or failure was in Israel's hands. "The calm is going to bring stability to Israel if they commit themselves to it," he said.

The truce deal between Israel and Hamas was reached after months of efforts by Egypt and could avert a large-scale Israeli military incursion. The talks were brokered by Egypt because Israel, like much of the international community, shuns Hamas for refusing to recognize Israel or renounce violence.

But on Wednesday, violence was still in evidence and a truce seemed remote. The military said at least 40 rockets and 10 mortar shells exploded in Israel by nightfall, an especially high one-day total.

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for much of the rocket fire, saying it was to avenge Israeli airstrikes that killed 10 militants in the previous two days. Israel hit back with two more airstrikes, wounding two Palestinians, according to Hamas security officials.

One of the militant rockets exploded in Ilan Basherim's greenhouse at Moshav Yesha, not far from Gaza. The 38-year-old Israeli said a truce would not improve security for border communities like his.

"This cease-fire will give more strength to Hamas, and they will be more violent in another six months. This is not good for Israel, and definitely not good for us," Basherim said.

Palestinians in Gaza have suffered the consequences of punishing Israeli retribution — airstrikes and military raids targeting gunmen and a blockade that has cut off many vital supplies. Israelis in communities near the Gaza Strip have lived for years with barrages of mortars and rockets that send them scrambling for cover almost every day.

According to the truce terms, militants will immediately halt their attacks on Israel, and Israel will cease its raids when the accord takes effect at 6 a.m. Thursday.

After three days, Israel is to ease the Gaza blockade, and a week later Israel will further ease restrictions at cargo crossings. In a final stage, the sides are supposed to talk about opening a major border crossing between Gaza and Egypt and the return of an Israeli soldier held in Gaza by Hamas militants for two years. The truce is supposed to last for six months.

A cease-fire in November 2006 lasted only weeks before unraveling.

In Washington, White House deputy press secretary Gordon Johndroe was hopeful.

"We hope this means no more rockets will be fired by Hamas at innocent Israelis as well as lead to a better atmosphere for talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority," he said. "But for that to happen, Hamas has to choose to become a legitimate political party and give up terrorism."

Khaled Abdel Halem, a 24-year-old Gaza law student, said he would be happy if Israel lifted the blockade, alleviating Gaza's abject poverty.

"But honestly, I don't have much hope that this agreement will hold for a long time. We are not talking about an agreement between friends or brothers. We are talking about a deal between two enemies who wish death for each other all the time," he said.

Peter Lerner, an Israeli military spokesman, said preparations were under way to increase the number of trucks carrying goods into Gaza beginning Sunday if the truce holds. Only one crossing is currently capable of operating at full capacity because two others have been damaged by Palestinian attacks, he said.

Lerner said fuel shipments would not immediately increase. Israel has restricted fuel supplies into Gaza, causing shortages and forcing motorists to use alternative modes of transportation.

Israel's call on Lebanon to open peace talks came after the second round of indirect talks between Israel and Syria in Turkey — contacts made public just last month.

Government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel was interested in direct, bilateral talks and ready to put "every issue of contention" on the table, including the dispute over the Chebaa Farms enclave. A U.N.-drawn border calls the 15-square-mile parcel of wasteland part of Syria under Israeli occupation, but Hezbollah insists it belongs to Lebanon and has used it to explain its continuing attacks on Israel.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora rejected Israel's call.

"Lebanon's known position before this government is that there is no place for bilateral negotiations between Lebanon and Israel," Saniora's media office said in a statement late Wednesday.

Hezbollah legislator Nawar al-Saheli told The Associated Press that the Israeli offer is "ridiculous propaganda."

U.S. pressure may be behind the Israeli move. On Monday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced U.S. backing for a new diplomatic push to resolve the Chebaa Farms land dispute in a gesture to the new Lebanese government, and as a catalyst for solving bigger issues in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

"Israel, which routinely accepts responsibility for attacks on military targets, denied involvement, and Hamas opened an investigation, an indication the militant Islamic rulers of Gaza believe the explosion might have been caused by accidental detonation of explosives in the house."

I wanted to read that bit again. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

First you attack Israel, THEN you determine it was your own explosives...


Blast flattens house of Hamas commander, killing 7

By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer
29 minutes ago



BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza Strip - A blast flattened the house of a militant commander in the Gaza Strip Thursday, killing seven people and wounding 40, Palestinian officials said.

Israel, which routinely accepts responsibility for attacks on military targets, denied involvement, and Hamas opened an investigation, an indication the militant Islamic rulers of Gaza believe the explosion might have been caused by accidental detonation of explosives in the house.

Earlier, Hamas blamed Israel and unleashed a barrage of rockets and mortars at Israel's south.

The spiraling violence threatened to undermine last-ditch efforts to secure a truce between Israel and Hamas and stave off an Israeli invasion of Gaza.

Ambulances rushed to the scene and residents of nearby homes brought shovels and bulldozers to help dig people out of the rubble. Three people covered in blood were carried out on stretchers and hurried into ambulances that sped them to the local hospital.

Hamas released a statement saying seven people were killed, including a baby, a senior aide to the Hamas interior minister and a Hamas militant who later died of his wounds. Several bodies were pulled from the rubble. In all, Hamas said, five of the dead were militants. The Hamas commander, Ahmed Hamouda, was not home at the time of the explosion.

Cars parked nearby were destroyed and covered with dust, and windows of neighboring houses and shops were shattered by the impact of the blast. Electricians were on the scene trying to disable live wires in the house, which had been reduced to a pile of debris.

Hamas security officials pushed back a screaming mob of hundreds to keep them from disrupting the rescue efforts.

"It was a huge explosion," said Majid Abu Samra, a local resident. "The house was destroyed, and there are people still buried under the rubble. I evacuated two women who were covered in dust and blood."

Maj. Avital Leibovich, an Israeli army spokeswoman, said the military was not operating in the area at the time. "We deny any connection to this incident," she said.

Announcing the investigation, Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida said results would be made public. The statement was taken as a Hamas acknowledgment that the blast was probably accidental, not an Israeli attack. Dozens of militants have been killed while handing explosives in recent years.

Shortly after the explosion, Hamas said it fired a barrage of mortar shells and rockets toward southern Israel. Israel's national rescue service said a 59-year-old woman was moderately wounded when a rocket struck a home on an Israeli communal farm. Palestinian officials said Israeli tanks fired on the launching area used by Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Polite Guest
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

Anyone got jujubes?

Suitably, for this strange thread, Israel has:

Israeli Jujube Tree


I expect Palestine may have too, somewhere.