BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:26 PM

For a five minute video sequence showing the disgusting humiliating and provocative treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Zionist armed settlers in Hebron, a Palestinian city,go to Liveleak and scroll down.
The sequence is called LIFE IN A CAGE...A PALESTINIAN FAMILY and it is an affront to any form of decency.
Albert

There is a second clip of orthodox but anti zionist Jewish worshippers in a synagogue being beaten up by Israeli security guards
which is also an appalling sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Thanks bobad and thanks Robert too.

I was only thinking last night of the fact that there is not always an unambiguous definition of a 'terrorist'.

The IRA, the ANC and Hamas flourished and bombed in the oxygenated atmosphere of inequality and/or repression.
Remove that oxygen and.......who knows...

Today some of these 'terrorists' have been redefined by history as 'freedom fighters' and have become respected statesmen others, who suffered 'judicial execution' (like James Connelly) or met an illegal execution (like Steve Biko) have become national heroes.

from a recent article in The Guardian

'Hamas condemns the Holocaust'

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression

'One recent approach, which seems to be part of the wider attempt to isolate the elected Palestinian leadership, is to portray Hamas and the population of the Gaza strip as motivated by anti-Jewish sentiment, rather than a hostility to Zionist occupation and domination

The Palestinian people aspire to freedom, independence and peaceful coexistence with all their neighbours.

No less than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained at least once by the Israeli occupation authorities since 1967. Hundreds of thousands have so far been killed or wounded. Little concern seems to be caused by all of this or by the erection of an apartheid wall that swallows more than 20% of the West Bank land or the heavily armed colonies that devour Palestinian land in a blatant violation of international law.'

quoted from Bassem Naeem, the minister of health and information in the Hamas-led Palestinian administration in Gaza.

There is hope for a 'reconciliation' process.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:01 PM

All of the generalizations and accusations on this and the other Middle East/Israel/Zionism threads on here the last week or so bear to light one word-change. Whichever side of the argument one is on here, it seems to me that the one thing that neither side wants is status quo. Arguments about who was responsible for a war 40 years are of scant matter to what should be done today (CarolC, that's not to say that it should be forgotten, whichever version you or I believe, but one must move on as well). There was a time in the 1980's when I never thought South Africa would be where it is today. There was a time when I thought the same about Northern Ireland as well. Believe it or not CarolC, I do believe some of the points you have made, but at the same time, I don't believe one can only hold Israel solely responsible for all of these issues. IRA violence was never justified, but Protestant para military strikes were equally unjstifiable, as was a shoot to kill policy by the British. I'm cutting through it all here folks, so please don't cut and paste a specific post you made where you said something to counter what I wrote, ok! I guess as I see the number of postings that have been growing on this subject matter, it just wears on me, yet I feel compelled to check in as well. I know that posting on here is not going to do anything other than swaying a few people one way or the other (and that's what we do on here),but lets face it, our arguing isn't accomplishing anything much now is it? I'm sure a lot of us on here do things like signing petitions and such, about issues we feel strongly about. I don't have the answers, regarding this and many other issues. Hell, I was a foreign policy major in college, but that hasn't changed anything! Regarding this issue, it seems like since status quo is not an option for either player in this option, we need to forget about much of the past and move on, find out the areas that 100% we can agree on, and move on from there. I know there are people out there, doing just that, and that's where I will throw my support behind.
Regards, robert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem viz. SALAM AL-ANN!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:28 PM

It's still very important to understand what Emma's saying in this regard, though. There are many Israelis who do not support the policies of their government and who are just as much the victims of them as anyone else. And there are many, many Israelis, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who are working very hard to correct the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:43 PM

I need to correct something I said...

Genetic studies have shown that the people who are now called Palestinians and the Arab Jews originated in that very area

The term "Arab Jews" in this case is not entirely correct, since there are also Arab Jews who come from other places as well. I should have said, some Arab Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:35 PM

GUEST
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:21 PM

before you get deleted, as I sincerely hope you do, let me say once more....

Isreal is a country made up of its individual citizens many of whom do NOT support the policies of the ruling party.

To 'condemn' a whole country for the beliefs and actions of its rulers is unacceptable whether that elected party is Hamas, Likud or the Bush administration!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:08 PM

I have a hell of a lot of respect for Daniel Barenboim.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:04 PM

It is very dificult to conduct a sane discussion with people who elevate the palestinian Arabs to a separate ethnic group. They are just plain Arabs.

This shows a tremendous amount of ignorance (and I would suggest, prejudice) about Arabs. The above quote is like saying Scottish and Welsh are not separate ethnic groups, they're just British.

It appears that the ethnic Philistines (aka Palestinians) left with the Jews and followed Mose. The current unhappy folks who spend all their energy trying to destroy Israel go back no father than the period of Islamic conquests around 700 AD.

This is false. You can't use the bible as an historical document in this case. In this case, at least, it's just a fiction. Genetic studies have shown that the people who are now called Palestinians and the Arab Jews originated in that very area (what is now Israel and occupied Palestine), with some extra genetic material provided by people passing through the area, since it was an important crossroads of civilization, and are more related to each other than they are to any other groups.

What came more recently to the region, and is probably what pdq is referring to, is the Arab language and the religion of Islam. But the people who are now referred to as the Palestinians are indigenous to the region.

What pdq and other people who use these kind of lies are doing is denying a people their history, and that is cultural genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:15 PM

We oppose violence, suicide bombings and extremism. We oppose fanatics who are Palestinian and Arab, fanatics who are Israeli and Jewish. Peace must be made between Palestinians and Israelis, not Israelis and Egyptians, Israelis and Saudis, Israelis and Jordanians, Jews and Muslims.

A vision from Salam al-Ann!:

    Palestinians must start approaching the whole concept of communications in a broader more comprehensive way, instead of always focusing on writing Op-Eds, letters in anger or argument "against" something.

    Many voices of peace from Israeli are not often disseminated to Palestinian audiences, or that are circulated only among the small informal "dialogue groups" -- which sometimes achieve only limited results. Dialogue groups must have long range visions that lead to activism and community awareness.

    Creating a new organization called SALAM AL-ANN! (Palestinians for Peace Now) is essential to achieving a viable Palestinian State.

    Our agenda is very simple and clear. We do not negotiate peace, but we do advocate for peace and compromise and the following issues (generally expressed below):

       * Call for an independent Palestinian state with sovereignty in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and most of East Jerusalem (or in a shared Jerusalem). This means a Palestinian State that is viable and includes most of the land -- with only minor modifications made through land-for-land swaps. We need a movement to define exactly what we are expecting because clearly, Israelis are not hearing us.

       * Recognize Israel's sovereignty and security generally within the 1967 borders (some minor changes based on negotiations). This means accepting Israel as a Jewish State and saying it the way they need to hear it. We support a two-state solution, one Jewish and one Palestinian, both secure, sovereign and in borders defined pre-1967.
         
       * Support of the PRINCIPLE of the Palestinian Right of Return, but recognize that clarity for both sides must be realized. Israelis and Palestinians should accept that some refugees are expected to be allowed to return to former homes or lands in Israel.

          It is not possible, not realistic to expect all Palestinians will return. Some have established lives in other countries. But, we ask that Israel recognize its responsibilities to compensate the refugees and consider all family reunification seriously.

          We insist that Israel recognize its responsibility for causing the refugee problem and make every effort to work to compensate the refugees for the homes and lands that they lost. We would support similar demands made by Jews who fled Arab countries in the same manner.
         
       * Jerusalem -- a negotiated agreement that either results in sharing or Palestinian sovereignty in those areas of East Jerusalem that are not Jewish (the Wailing Wall plaza and Jewish sectors of East Jerusalem should rightly belong to the Israelis). Decided through negotiations.
         
       * A complete removal and dismantling of all settlements in the West Bank, Gaza Strip.
         
       * The negotiated status of certain settlements in or around Jerusalem that have been annexed into Israel (such as Ariel and Gilo, a settlement originally created as a security post that has since become a "Jerusalem neighborhood). The status of these settlements should be determined by negotiations and discussions and their futures based on equal land trades.
         
       * A firm stand against all forms of violence, but specifically by being responsible for those forms of violence that come from our community, specifically and clear, separate denunciation of violence by Palestinians against Israel. Why make this demand? Because we are responsible for ourselves. We cannot demand that Israel's government stop the violence against Palestinians if we do not first demand that we stop the violence against Israelis. This is a moral position we must accept and does not undermine our right to demand forcefully that Israel's government end its violence against Palestinians.
         
       * A call for Palestinians and Israelis to return to the formal negotiation process. To build a strong voice by both sides demanding that the representatives of both sides go back to the table and negotiate.
         
       * A call for both sides to bring the volume of anger and hatred down to a level that replaces emotion with reasoned and positive-intended passion. We can argue and we can disagree, but we don't need to hate.

    These are very simple concepts (expressed in general terms to convey the intent only) that must form the basis of a Palestinian effort in support of peace. We can fine-tune them through discussion.

    If you believe - really believe in compromise with Israel based on land-for-peace and the goal of a two-state solution, they you will support us. Agreeing to recognize Israel does not mean that we have to give up our souls, or our individual views of history. But it does mean that we look ahead, not backwards, and find a way to end the conflict based on compromise not violence, hatred or rejection of what is right and moral.

    Please circulate these principles and help us build

http://www.hanania.com/palestinianpeacenow.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:14 PM

Emma B,

If you regard these people as a distinct ethnic group because they live in a spacific geographic region, then you must be able to give the exact (or close to it) boundries to that territory. This is a serious question to you and needs to be addressed before a civilised discussuion can continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:48 PM

My apologies that was Rabbi Tirzah Firestone, I quoted above

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:45 PM

http://www.tirzahfirestone.com/html/bio.html journies through the Occupied Territories and says .....
'we must choose: Risking one's reputation or not speaking and risking one's soul?'

'This past year I have had to face the underbelly of my love of Zion. Like so many American Jews, I had been raised with the unquestioned narrative about Israel's righteousness, its humane practices, and the moral high ground upon which its policies are based. The painful deconstruction of these beliefs began with a journey through the Occupied Territories, where I encountered the shocking effects of my people's fear.

I saw a land sliced by concrete and barbed wire, a snaking wall 450 miles long. Yes, there has been good reason for fear—genuine security threats that have come through the gates and checkpoints. Nevertheless, I found myself questioning the holding back of women in labor, children in need of emergency blood transfusions. I heard stories, not only from Arabs, but from Israeli soldiers who struggled to "carry out orders" while innocent women and children died before their eyes.'

In the shadow of Zion
more news from the Common Ground**

**seeks to promote mutual understanding and offer hope, opportunities for dialogue and constructive suggestions that facilitate peaceful resolution of conflict
We publish and promote articles by local and international experts on current Middle East issues and the relationship between the West and Arab and Muslim communities.
The service is a non-profit initiative of Search for Common Ground, an international non-governmental organization (NGO), headquartered in Washington and Brussels, whose mission is to transform the way the world deals with conflict - away from adversarial confrontation towards cooperative solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:38 PM

I think that the Zionist cause is well past its sell by date...they are still there in the Middle East purely because of brute military strength and through the massive economic muscle and aid provided by the USA and other western governments.
There will be no 2 state solution because Israel will accept nothing but a series of bantustan type strips of land for the indiginous Palestinian people to live on with no power ,no freedom of movement and at the mercy of the Israeli state itself and any crazed armed Zionist settler who wants to shoot at or beat up a Palestinian.
There can only be a one state solution some time in the future and any Zionist who cannot accept that should return to New York or some other place but there will be no room in the new state for their thuggery and armed swaggering!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:21 PM

Thanks for reminding us of that bankley, there are many people of good will working for the
'common ground'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:14 PM

here's another Fact, which I found to be re-assuring given all the heat and emotion around this and related issues....

Daniel Barenboim, world reknowned Israeli conductor, accepted honorary Palestinian citizenship in Jan. after performing a concert in Ramallah, saying that he hoped his new status would be an example of Israel-Palestinian co-existence. He is the founder of Diwan Orchestra whose members include Israelis, Palestinians, and citizens from Arab countries.

leave it to the artists and musicians to find the common ground... and actually do something positive about it

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:03 PM

pdq
I refer to the Palestinians, not as an ethnic group but as residents of Palestine**; this is fairly 'normal practice' I believe - nowhere I have ever heard it postulated that anyone 'elevates' the English to an ethnic group by referring to them by that term and indeed the word usage would be to precisely distinguish them from the neighbouring citizens of France or Scotland etc.

** or "Occupied Palestinian Territory", as used by the UN

But, you are right, it is difficult to conduct any discussion with someone unable to make this obvious distinction.

Your remark
'Since WWII, many Arab countries have sent their most worthless people, the bottom of Arab society, to the area around Israel for the specific purpose of disrupting the Jewish state.They have been told that when Israel falls, the property and wealth the Jews enjoy will be theirs. These people are so radicalized after years of daily propaganda, where the Jews are held responsible for nearly all the Arab's problems, that thse people are no longer welcome in any Arab country because they most are no longer capable of productive work. They are only trained to protest and to fight Israel.'

is too offensive to genuine refugees to even consider; I have no wish to even converse with someone who resorts to such malicious misrepresentation


As for history…

The Arab political status in the Mandate

'The British however made acceptance of the terms of the Mandate a precondition for any change in the constitutional position of the Arabs. For the Arabs this was unacceptable, as they felt that this would be "self murder". During the whole interwar period the British, appealing to the terms of the Mandate, which they had designed themselves, rejected the principle of majority rule or any other measure that would give an Arab majority control over the government of Palestine.

Immigration

'During the Mandate the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine, grew from one sixth to almost one third of the populations.
According to official records, 367,845 Jews and 33,304 non-Jews immigrated legally between 1920 and 1945
It was estimated that another 50–60,000 Jews and a small number of non-Jews immigrated illegally during this period. Immigration accounts for most of the increase of Jewish population, while the non-Jewish population increase was largely natural. These figures have been supported by later studies, though estimates of Arab immigration have been disputed.

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly, creating much Arab resentment.
The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each side for its own reasons

The Peel Commission

In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed a partition between a small Jewish state, whose Arab population had to be transferred, and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan. The proposal was rejected by the Arabs and by the Zionist Congress (by 300 votes to 158) but accepted by the latter as a basis for negotiations between the Executive and the British Government.

In the wake of the Peel Commission recommendation an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Hebron. British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police, suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force.
The British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Jewish volunteers such as Yigal Alon, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley" by conducting raids on Arab villages. The squads used excessive and indiscriminate force

The Jewish militias the Stern Gang and Irgun used violence also against civilians, attacking marketplaces and buses.

The Revolt resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 percent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled The Jewish population had 400 killed; the British 200. Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency, the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.

N>B This perspective of 'history' is even handed, does not minimise the not very honourable role of the British and can be found (with references to the facts quoted) at wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:14 AM

It is very dificult to conduct a sane discussion with people who elevate the palestinian Arabs to a separate ethnic group. They are just plain Arabs. Most practice the same Suni Moslem religion and they speak Arabic.

I posted an article about the 'Philistines' whose name eventually became 'Palestinians' and gave that name to the Holy Lands. I was going to follow up that post with more information but things got off track a bit.

It appears that the ethnic Philistines (aka Palestinians) left with the Jews and followed Mose. The current unhappy folks who spend all their energy trying to destroy Israel go back no father than the period of Islamic conquests around 700 AD.

Even so, the area was almost empty by the end of the Turkish occupation from 1517 to 1917. Since then both Jews and Moslem Arabs have immigrated in large numbers, but many Arabs came only to share the wealth that the Jews brought.

Since WWII, many Arab countries have sent their most worthless people, the bottom of Arab society, to the area around Israel for the specific purpose of disrupting the Jewish state.They have been told that when Israel falls, the property and wealth the Jews enjoy will be theirs. These people are so radicalized after years of daily propaganda, where the Jews are held responsible for nearly all the Arab's problems, that thse people are no longer welcome in any Arab country because they most are no longer capable of productive work. They are only trained to protest and to fight Israel.


"The land was under Turkish control from 1517 to 1917 (ten times forty years), and Turkey destroyed this land thoroughly. The rulers enacted ridiculous laws; for example, one which required taxes to be paid for live trees. The people cut down the trees so they wouldn't have to pay taxes! The country therefore ended up in a very wretched condition, empty of trees and covered with rocks where once great forests had stood. Many authors, including Mark Twain, described the land as being devoid of any living creatures other than birds of prey and foxes.

But what of the people living in Israel? In 1864 about half the people of Jerusalem were Jews; about a third were Moslems. Hebron, Jerusalem, Tiberias all had semi-autonomous Jewish areas. When the Jews began returning to Israel in the mid-to-late 19th century, there were so few people living there, they could settle in most of the Holy Land without displacing anyone.

In 1920 the League of Nations designated British-occupied Palestine as a homeland for the Jewish people. Palestine then included all of what is now Israel, Jordan, and the West Bank. The land was no more than set aside for the Jews than the Arab nations revolted against the decision forcing Britain to designate the area that is now Jordan for the Arabs and install an Arab monarchy. Britain was politically protecting its oil sources but Israelis thereby lost over fifty percent of their land.

Jewish settlements created jobs to which neighboring Arabs were drawn. As Jewish settlements grew, Arab settlements grew up around them. The rise of Hitler caused more Jewish people to return to the land. But Islamic opposition and terrorism against the British and in favor of Hitler Germany persuaded England to reduce the number of Jewish people allowed to return at the time they most needed the land to escape the Nazi extermination camps. Britain was again worried about her Arab oil supply...".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:12 AM

Sleep will do you more good than talkin' to me. Good night, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:08 AM

You started the personal attacks a couple of days ago by calling people who criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians, Israel haters and Jew haters. You've been using those kinds of bully tactics for a very long time to silence people who are working hard to help Palestinians gain their freedom and their rights. I don't focus on Hamas and Hezbollah because I know that focusing on them will not solve the problem. Removing the reason for the existance of Hamas and Hezbollah will solve the problem, and it will remove Hamas and Hezbollah. So that is what I am putting my energies into to try to help bring this about.

I don't speak out against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (as well as some of its other neighbors) just to criticize Israel. I do it because that's how this problem will be solved. By bringing the situation to the attention to as many people as possible. As the former Israeli soldiers in the video I posted said, it's US public opinion that drives this conflict or solves it. I have a responsibility as a tax payer in this country to work hard to try to help solve the problem, because my money is helping to create it.

But what you are doing and have been doing for a very long time is trying to silence people who are working to help the Palestinians, and by extension, also helping to remove the reason for the existence of Hamas and Hezbollah, and bring peace to the Middle East. And you do it by bullying them and making character assassinations against them. This tactic has been in use for a very long time, but it's losing its effectiveness as more and more people are able to see that what they've been told for so long are lies.

That's what happened to me in 2002. Prior to that time, I held the same beliefs about the Middle East as you and most everyone else. But that changed for me, and since 2002, when I first started talking about it, I've seen a steady and almost exponential increase in the number of people who are becoming aware of the reality in occupied Palestine and who can now see through the lies they've been told all their lives. The numbers of such people have grown so much that the difference is like night and day compared to 2002. And these people are Christians, Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions and of no religion.

The bully tactics just won't work any longer. The time has passed for that kind of thing. People will not be silenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:02 PM

What shows about you is that you have no 'humanity' as you like to call it. You say nothing about Hezbollah and their attacks on civilians, Hamas and its stance that the Israelis must be driven away. You are useless to speak with because every thread you go to ends up the same. Carol fighting with anyone who expresses a different opinion. You made a personal attack on me which is what started mine back to you. So, say and do as you want, but don't expect to have your posts treated as sacrosanct. You ask questions and like to have them answered. I asked Emma a question and you then say people--meaning pdq and me I guess--are trying to make it about Emma. How so? Does that mean when you ask a question of others that you are trying to change the subject? Do you ever think before you post? You have one set of rules for yourself and another set for others. You don't want shit slung at you, don't sling it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:47 PM

You can make personal attacks, Peace, but it won't do you any good. The tide of humanity will overtake those who use such tactics to silence people who speak out on behalf of human rights for Palestinians. And when that happens, those who fought against it will look to all the world like the dinosaurs they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:27 PM

. . . and yet more wind from the east.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:22 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

None of my tax money is being sent to Hezbollah and Hamas to help them kill people. A hell of a lot of my tax money is being sent to Israel to help them kill and ethnically cleanse people, wage wars on them, and deprive them of their basic human rights, making me complicit in these crimes. I not only have a right to speak out about it, but I have a responsibility to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:08 PM

They have to make it about you, Emma, because they are trying to defend the indefensible. You provide a handy way to divert attention away from the real issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:06 PM

Emma B, it seems to me, is TRYING to make sense of it all, and showing how both 'sides' have both bad & good claims.

If one 'condemns' one side, they really need to balance things and offer similar condemnations relating to the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:02 PM

This is how peace will be accomplished. Opening a window to the world on what is going on in occupied Palestine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsesMjWkAl8&feature=related


Literally crushing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOosOEFFyo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsXCbaN3Nw4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ixQix_Mys&feature=related


Emotionally and mentally crushing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBb2f1WEtiQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgySmIN3Uls&feature=related


Crushing opportunities for the future of Palestinian youth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYyWg9Z8I7k&feature=related


Crushing bones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6va41PCY_U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrJEaF0rhB0


Crushing spirits, crushing liberty, crushing human rights...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0fM58jBYzY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvE1YkbdPU&feature=related


Crushing livelihoods (and crushing bones in the first one)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEApSnFPIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jZSg0IJpiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv9CY5-RKLg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTVNyXhxqFc


I posted this one already but I think it bears posting again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kem1ajIKv1k&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:37 PM

What Emma B does is kinda like "praising with faint damns".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:37 PM

Then answer the question I asked earlier: Have you ever come out with a condemnation of Hamas and Hezbollah--specifically with regard to their rhetoric regarding Israel and Hezbollah's actions with regard to Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:33 PM

Peace, I believe I said I neither supported the Holocaust denial of Hammas or the policies of the Likud party in relation to Gaza.

Please don't put words in my mouth either.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:29 PM

It certainly does. Tells me all I need to know. Thank you. So, it's OK to hate Israel's actions but not those of other countries in the region. Just wanted to be clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:26 PM

Peace, I have never posted in support of the Bush regime's decision to invade Iraq or deny universal health care to its citizens

I similarly will not endorse the actions (in regard of Gaza) of the Likud ruling party in the Knesset until hell freezes over - hope that answers your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:22 PM

In fact, I haven't seen too many people refute guest posters--as long as the guest agrees with their position. (I'm that way, too. Not perfect like a few folks here.) Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:21 PM

Peace, I whole heartedly endorse the Daniel Pearl Foundation.

From the link I posted.......

Judea Pearl, an attendee and father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included "verses of peace" that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were "cultural baggage," as are similar verses in the Torah. Unfortunately, his words were drowned out by the cheers for Sultan's full-court press against Islam and Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:20 PM

"I think I have attempted to refure both racism and blatent Islamaphobia on a number of threads, I consider this is yet another example from an unknown 'guest'"

I notice you didn't attempt to refute Guest Albert. I look forward to your equally vehement refutation of Israelaphobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:15 PM

Propaganda is popaganda whatever it's source and the 'source' of this is certainly suspect both factually ( "There was a professor who was killed around 1979, that is true, but it was off-campus and Sultan was not even around when it happened,") and in its origins the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri).

I think I have attempted to refure both racism and blatent Islamaphobia on a number of threads, I consider this is yet another example from an unknown 'guest'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:12 PM

It sounds like we are supposed to worry about Emma B's opinion of somebody else giving an opinion about somebody else giving her opinion. On that rests the future of 7 million Israelis. Nice try, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:08 PM

How about this instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Jewish/Arab woman
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:08 PM

Israel's destiny lies with Palestine
Palestine's destiny lies with Israel

They are inseparable, and they are the same species, human beings.

One World

Go to the borders, let the musicians of Israel and Palestine lead their people forward, then let them cross those borders, with their people. Let Jew dance with Palestinian and Palestinian dance with Jew, let them throw their labels away, let them unite their religions to become the Religion of Humanity and see what happens..

"I believe there is a God, but it doesn't mean that my God is greater than yours. It only means we all have the right to believe, 'cos nobody knows it for sure, if there's a heaven, or hell, or a sweet paradise, or a place where we all meet again, 'cos with minimal change everyone here is the same. We're living in One World.." (taken from 'One World' by Chris de Burgh

Wafa Sultan no doubt knew, when she spoke out, that her life would never be lived in peace again. She is currently living in hiding, following a fatwa being issued against her, in March this year.

Perhaps her detractors would care to have the courage of this woman, and put their lives on the line, as she has done, in order to speak words which should have been spoken so long ago. It is far easier to be the ones to criticise, than to be the one who has stood up against a world in denial.

And to those who have left Mudcat, I fervently hope that they will return, once the hurt from so many of these threads has settled.

Shalom-Inshallah

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:06 PM

So we ignore her quest for a peaceful resolution and do what?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:02 PM

Islam's Ann Coulter
The seductive and blinkered belligerence of Wafa Sultan.
By Stephen Julius Stein, Los Angeles Times

STEPHEN JULIUS STEIN is a rabbi at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, where he also directs inter-religious programming.
June 25, 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:53 PM

'Selective Memri'

Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.

The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.

Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.

Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.

Col Carmon's co-founder at Memri is Meyrav Wurmser, who is also director of the centre for Middle East policy at the Indianapolis-based Hudson Institute, which bills itself as "America's premier source of applied research on enduring policy challenges".

Ms Wurmser is the author of an academic paper entitled Can Israel Survive Post-Zionism? in which she argues that leftwing Israeli intellectuals pose "more than a passing threat" to the state of Israel, undermining its soul and reducing its will for self-defence

It's a campaign that the Israeli government and American neo-conservatives have been pushing since early this year - one aspect of which was the bizarre anti-Saudi briefing at the Pentagon, hosted last month by Richard Perle.

To anyone who reads Arabic newspapers regularly, it should be obvious that the items highlighted by Memri are those that suit its agenda and are not representative of the newspapers' content as a whole.

The danger is that many of the senators, congressmen and "opinion formers" who don't read Arabic but receive Memri's emails may get the idea that these extreme examples are not only truly representative but also reflect the policies of Arab governments

Unfortunately, it is on the basis of such sweeping generalisations that much of American foreign policy is built these days.

As far as relations between the west and the Arab world are concerned, language is a barrier that perpetuates ignorance and can easily foster misunderstanding

Not everything is as it seems - especially posts from 'guests'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:42 PM

Such words are the stuff of propaganda and are not to found in a serious discussion about 'facts' and 'solutions to problems'.

They happen to be the truth. Watch the videos I've already provided and you can see your yourself. I'll post some more, too, so there won't be any room for ambiguity about what "crushing occupation" means.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:39 PM

"crushing military occupation, apartheid, and ongoing ethnic cleansing..."

Such words are the stuff of propaganda and are not to found in a serious discussion about 'facts' and 'solutions to problems'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:36 PM

'All of a sudden, and out of obscurity, Sultan found herself the center of both attention and controversy. On the one hand, she became the darling of many right wing media pundits and mainly pro-Israel groups who viewed her as a beacon of reform that stood up to what was wrong with Islam and Muslims.

On the other hand, Muslims contended that by making broad, unfounded and ignorant proclamations about their faith, Sultan was nothing more than a pawn playing into the hands of Islamophobes, and an opportunist who intentionally pushed the divide between the Islamic world and the West to further ulterior motives that included fame, fortune and immortality.'

While Sultan's admirers have nothing but praise for her, detractors charge that many of her public claims do not corroborate with facts. Moreover, they assert that the reasons behind her rise to fame have more to do with her personal life than with her desire to reform Islam.

Adnan Halabi, a Syrian expatriate who met and got to know the Sultans when they first came to the United States, spoke at length about the Wafa Sultan that very few people know.

According to Halabi, Dr. Wafa Ahmad (her maiden name) arrived in California with her husband Moufid (now changed to David) in the late 80s on a tourist visa. Contrary to what she told the New York Times, they came as a couple, leaving their two children back in Syria.

As to the claim that her professor (thought to be Yusef Al-Yusef) was gunned down before her eyes in a faculty classroom at the University of Aleppo, Halabi said the incident never took place. "There was a professor who was killed around 1979, that is true, but it was off-campus and Sultan was not even around when it happened," he added

These same critics allege that Islamophobes are most certainly behind the likes of Sultan. They argue that the clip that made her famous was distributed by MEMRI, a media group that purports to independently translate and distribute news from the Middle East when in reality it is promoting a pro-Israeli slant. In an article titled, "Selective Memri," published on August 12, 2002 by the British newspaper The Guardian, investigative reporter Brian Whitaker wrote: "The stories selected by MEMRI for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel

Another feature of deliberate bias and media myopia, critics say, is the fact that the Al-Jazeera clip was edited intentionally "out of context" to reflect one single point of view and promote Sultan's arguments through American-style media sound bites, reducing the other debater to a mere punching bag.

In the transcript, Shaikh Ibrahim Al-Khouli responded by saying, "…here we must ask a question, who facilitated the conflict and indeed initiated it; is it the Muslims? Muslims now are in a defensive position fighting off an aggressor... who said Muslims were backward? They may be backward in terms of technological advances, but who said that such are the criteria for humanity? Muslims are more advanced on a human level, in terms of the values and principles they endorse." (Entire transcript can be viewed at:

http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2006/03/aljazeera_trans.php

Sultan's detractors include not only Muslims but members of the Jewish community as well. In an op-ed piece published in the Los Angeles Times (June 25, 2006) and titled "Islam's Ann Coulter," Rabbi Stephen Julius Stein at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, who attended a fundraiser for a local Jewish organization where Sultan was a speaker, wrote, "The more Sultan talked, the more evident it became that progress in the Muslim world was not her interest.... She never alluded to any healthy, peaceful Islamic alternative."

The rabbi mentioned that Judea Pearl, father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, "was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included 'verses of peace' that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were 'cultural baggage,' as are similar verses in the Torah."

He added, "Sultan's over-the-top, indefensible remarks at the fundraiser, along with her failure to mention the important, continuing efforts of the Islamic Center (of Southern California), insulted all Muslims and Jews in L.A. and throughout the nation who are trying to bridge the cultural gap between the two groups. And that's one reason why I eventually walked out of the event."

As to the reasons that may have pushed Sultan to be so outspoken and vocal against Islam in a post-9/11 world, Halabi sympathetically remarked, "Poverty. It drives people to sell their soul."

Sigh - seems everyone has an 'agenda'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Jewish/Arab women (etc)...

There are many Muslim and Christian Palestinians who consider Jews to be their friends. There are Jews living amongst the Palestinians in their villages (as equals, not as occupiers) and some are even married to Jews who live there with them. But that doesn't make living under a crushing military occupation, apartheid, and ongoing ethnic cleansing any easier for them. There are also many Jewish human rights workers who spend a lot of time in occupied Palestine, helping to protect the Palestinians from attacks from settlers. Hatred of Jews is not the problem in occupied Palestine. The occupation is the problem in occupied Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:31 PM

That last post speaks louder than I ever could.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:21 PM

I'm listening to that lady who was linked to by the Guest (let the women rule, etc), and she nails it in one.

Only if one forgets the Christian Palestinians, which it looks like a lot of people would like us to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Jewish/Arab woman again
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:20 PM

Listen to Wafa talking about the Jewish people and how they have become her friends:

Wafa Sultan interview on Israel National Radio - Part Two

And after that, maybe you should all shake hands and give each other a hug, because it's starting to sound like the Middle East itself inside this thread.

We are all ONE people, Mudcatters too.