An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM

Bollocks WAV. "As they tell us to lean back toward England." What in gods name does that mean. Who's next on your little calvacade of non-English English? Ralph McTell? Richard Thompson? Sandy Denny? Steve Ashley? Jacqui McShee? Steve Tilston?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Wait a sec, though I don't particulary care for them, I didn't say that SoH's entire set lists and recordings leant towards the American (they don't), Volgadon and I said that ONE song sounded vaguelt countryish, so please don't bother, you're only wasting your time

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

That's true, you two: they do lean a bit toward America in their style as they tell us to lean back toward England - I did, for what it's worth, say we "may not agree with me on everything", above.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

Oh right here' the master of not taking responsibility, Mr Blind Cowman or should that read coward?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Blind Cowman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

Volgadon, your last post had no validity. Your sort should take responsibility for your postings. Yet - the mutton and jeff one agreed with it. She's flocking barmy.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

Volgadon said, " Speaking of Show of Hands, isn't their song Country Life a bit country-ish?"

Oh it's not just me who thinks that then? I was beginning to wonder :-D

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Speaking of Show of Hands, isn't their song Country Life a bit country-ish?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

"Fair point.....why are you hiding behind a guest name?"

Simple, beause this sort refuses to take responsibility for their postings, therefore the said postings have no validity whatsoever.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:20 PM

WAV repeats, yet again, "I too APPRECIATE "Good songs, things and people come form (sic) all over the globe."

as long as those good things stay where they are and don't dare come to England. A variation WAV's old I love multiculturalism (as long as England is multicultural).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:59 PM

To Banjiman: it's not just in England, of course, where folks are singing with American, rather than their own, accents, performing the music of other nations, etc.; but I can't think of any nation where this process is occuring more than it is in England - Show of Hands, e.g., may not agree with me on everything, but they have also felt the urge to at least try and do something about it, hence, "Roots".

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

Thank you for answering a straight question WAV...... so why call them "English" why try and sort things on nationalistic lines? These are false divisions that breed unhealthy competition & war. Why would it matter if we lived in Scotland and Wendy had written the same song.....or if she was from Hong Kong?

I really don't feel our culture is under so much threat (in fact it is constantly enriched by mixing with other cultures) that we have to pull up the drawbridges and try to be exclusive. .....why do you think this is important? I would be grateful if you don't refer me back to your life's work but gave me a straight answer on this one as well.

Thanks

By the way, I wouldn't know where to start with a cittern.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

"........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it ("The Visitor") be eligible for your "English" folk awards?" (Banjiman/citternman..?)...Yes, as I said, it's a self-penned English folk song, and, as a couple, you two abide in England now.
To Joe: I'm abiding in, rather than visiting, England, now, so I practise/perform English songs and hymns, whilst listening to others from around the world.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM

Walk away while you can-this guy doesn't answer questions-just keeps linking back to the beginning of his website.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM

I have never heard of something so absurd
As feeling pride about an accident of birth

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

WAV.....please answer the question:

"........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it ("The Visitor") be eligible for your "English" folk awards?"

Thanks

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

Yes but do you appreciate all traditional / world music, or just that in which the music performed and the performer are of the same national origin?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:27 AM

A quick look at my myspace Top Friends will make it clear that I too APPRECIATE "Good songs, things and people come form all over the globe", Banjiman.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:07 AM

"To Banjiman - for what it's worth, I think "The Visitor" is a good self-penned English folk song, and I hope you and yours put your skills into E. trads, also."

Wendy says thanks for that WAV........but would a Scot (with some African ancestry) singing it be eligible for your "English" folk awards?

Indeed we sing and play English, Scottish, Irish and American (and we'd probably do Russian/ Japanese or Punjabi if we wanted to) trad (and self penned and other contemporary songs)........which is the whole point. Good songs, things and people come form all over the globe....and should be allowed free movement and the chance to make their way wherever.

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:43 AM

Whether there's a need for it or not Howard, there most certainly IS an Arts Council for England: Arts Council England actually.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM

"if he (Mike Harding) were restricted to only English music then a lot of other good stuff wouldn't get played." (HJ)...but if you get the BBC digital radio channels (which will soon be necessary for any TV) there's plenty of "other good stuff", as noted above by others and me, Howard.

To Banjiman - for what it's worth, I think "The Visitor" is a good self-penned English folk song, and I hope you and yours put your skills into E. trads, also.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:34 AM

Howard Jones said:

"Unlike WAV, I don't feel that the other good stuff is a threat to my Englishness or enjoyment of English music."

I agree entirely.

WAV.....can you answer my question above about just how "English" you would need to be to take part in your "English" folk awards? I used my other half and one of her songs as an example? .....or should she just be sent back to Scotland (or Africa as she has some 300 yr old African blood)?

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

it's not that we are actively against a Degree in English Folk Music, an English folk radio programme, an English folk award, or an Arts Council of England, we just don't see the need for them.

We already have all these things, albeit none of them exclusively English. We can argue over whether or not they're doing a good job, but on the whole I find them more interesting than something taking a more narrow view.

For example, Mike Harding plays too much Irish and American music on his programme for my taste, but if he were restricted to only English music then a lot of other good stuff wouldn't get played. Unlike WAV, I don't feel that the other good stuff is a threat to my Englishness or enjoyment of English music.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

Who said there was any bias against English culture? English folk may not get a fair share of media exposure and the ad men love to take the piss out of old traditions but does that equate to bias against English culture? I think not. Bias against implies some sort of movement to stamp it out and I have bever come across any such thing.

Dave.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:32 AM

"Now look what you've done Banjiman!!!"

A reply to the Physically (and Emotionally) Challenged Animal Gatherer,

SORRY!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Lonely Goatherd
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM

Now look what you've done Banjiman!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

Another point worth bringing up, then: if there has been a bias against English culure, then WHY?...
There seems to be some living within the borders of England who don't want such things as a Degree in English Folk Music, an English folk radio programme, an English folk awards, or the Arts Council of England to promote more English culture. E.g., Tony Blair, born in Scotland, said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"; I, however, having repatriated more than a decade ago, am sure that we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time. Many Scots HAVE linked Scottish folk to Scottish nationalism - I support them, and think the same should occur here in England.
As I've also said here, nationalism with conquest is bad, but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via a stronger UN, is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:47 AM

Fair point.....why are you hiding behind a guest name?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Blind Cowman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:35 AM

It had until you brought it up again.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:26 AM

Has common sense won the day on this one now?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:50 PM

"Great idea, really, and so simple. English Folk Awards. All you have to do is:
1) Decide what you mean by English.
2) Decide what you mean by Folk.
3) Decide what kind of Award you are going to have.
Go for it(but I'll not stay up)"

OK.

But, if y'all let someone else do it first then THEY get to define the terms.

You do NOT require anyone's permission or definitions. YOU (whoever YOU is in this context) simply require to do it. The trad folk will have their say; the contemporary will have theirs. Hell, ya may even have songwriters who have a category. I think too many people are hung up on definitions. That AIN'T where it's at, IMO. It's about music, and I have never needed anyone to tell me what I like. Definitiions or not. So take your music away from those who want to pigeonhole it. It's YOUR music, not just theirs.

Greg--this post is NOT directed at you.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

Will a gentle pat on the back and a quietly murmured, "Well done, old chap/old gel/old bean," not do the job handsomely?

Stiff upper lip and all that, d'you see?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

I won't be holding my breath waiting for any "English" Folk Music Awards anytime soon.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:36 PM

Great idea, really, and so simple. English Folk Awards. All you have to do is:
1) Decide what you mean by English.
2) Decide what you mean by Folk.
3) Decide what kind of Award you are going to have.
Go for it(but I'll not stay up)

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:32 PM

"Keep up the debate & dont let WAV grind you down."
and don't let others do the same thing. The old saying of those that can, do etc.. etc..

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"Little Bo Peep is a laugh a minute isn't she! "

Yup, unlike some here I do have a sense of humour

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Not being into Englishness or yet awards (least of all folk awards) I've avoided this one for some days now, but it occurs to me that before one ever thinks of oneself as being English one invariably thinks of oneself as being something else first. In my case I'm an Irish-Northumbrian-Jewish vagabond lately fetched up in Lytham St. Annes; a Geordie born on the banks on the Tyne - certainly within reek of the North Shields fish quay and quite possibly within sight of South Shields too. My grandfather used to tell a tale about a chap who'd lived all his life in Blyth and had cause to cross the Tyne on the Shields ferry when his daughter married South of the Water. Upon reaching that foreign shore he was asked by a local Sand-dancer where he was from and he proudly proclaimed he was, in truth, from England.

I do not tell the tale to deride such colloquialism, rather to illustrate the point that the only time we ever truly become English is when we leave England's shores, carrying a national identity which the rest of the time is ambient at best, content as we are with a more specific personal and regional identity, though it is the truth that wherever you go you're sure to find a Geordie. Last Sunday we attended Holy Mass at the the Roman Catholic National Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham and later that day, some miles away in Wells-next-the-Sea, we met the elderly couple who'd sat behind us during the service, who were, as it turned out, on pilgrimage from Esh Winning, but a mile away from our old home in Waterhouses, County Durham. In Norfolk, this felt significant on various levels, but above all else, one felt an enriching sense of commonality in which it is good to remember the things we share, even in memory; people, places, and even the local post-master!

Whatever the case, I feel one can only truly claim to be a citizen of but two places - the comfort of ones own skin & the surface of Planet Earth which gives us the atmospheric pressure and oxygen so essential to the maintenance of life & bodily integrity. The rest is a bonus, of course, but nothing to get too hung up upon, one would hope, though one might ponder to what extent the impoverishment of regional identity might result in the somewhat distorted picture of Nationhood that pervades certain of these threads. It's as if we're catching a glimpse of ourselves reflected in an all too imperfect mirror, one which renders grotesque the whole notion of England and the English, enlarging this and shrinking that, reflecting only what it wants to reflect whilst filtering the rest of it out, for whatever reason. But just a glimpse, then gone, forever...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,ESAM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Me above. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:39 AM

"They will turn a horse into a camel." Can't wait to use that line. Nice one!

I like Banjiman's sort of Englishness. Inclusive and not too hung up on petty rules. This has nothing to do with spurious notions of political correctness (the retort that's normally thrown at those in favour of an inclusive approach) and everything to do with the realities of the England that actually exists around us now. The England that has come about as a result of centuries of invasion, immigration, assimilation, exposure to new ideas... you know, the one that's constantly changing, evolving, throwing up new challenges.

So much better than some static fantasyland (that probably never existed outside of the feverish imaginations of Victorian nationalists) where nothing ever changes and people who put store by such things can decide this is English; this isn't; this is English; this isn't; yadda yadda yadda.

And can I congratulate Wendy A on winning at Saltburn? The Visitor is a mighty fine song.

Before you say anything, Richard Bridge, WAV, etc: I'm not anti-English. Just anti nationalist bullshit, as I hopefully would be if I was Welsh, Scottish, Irish or anything elseish.

Humanist, mainly.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

Seems ya have a dilemma.

1) Set the categories (trad, contemporary, singing w/o instruments, whatever)
2) Select judges who are familiar with the music they are judging (trad folks for trad; contemporary for contemporary, etc.)
3) Have the awards
4) Review the first awards night and streamline it for the second awards night

However, the vitriol and narrow mindedness of many people will obstruct what you want to do. IMO, keep them off your committees or they will turn a horse into a camel.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:58 AM

I think the question of balance is well worth debate!

But I find WAVs threads egotistical & if not outright racist then bordering on such.

Still waiting an answer on Saltburn rules.

But I must leave work now so will look in tomorrow.

Keep up the debate & dont let WAV grind you down.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

Black Hawk, yes, point taken.

However this seems a very good illustration of the difficulty and pointlessness of trying to set up "exclusive" folk awards of any kind.

It sets us off down a very dangerous road.....just how "English" do you need to be to enter (and how much more "English" to win)? Would having none "English" ancestry exclude you?......this I believe is where WAV wants to take us.

We've already had the debate (ad nauseum) about how difficult it is to be sure of a tune or song's nationality.

I vote we just forget about this idea or we walk into the arms of the fascists.

More folk (from everywhere) on the radio though please.

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

.....oh yes, and I forgot to say, Wendy now lives in England and almost certainly has some African ancestry from a slave brought to these shores in the early 18th century (Skipio Kennedy.... subject of another of her songs).....

.....so WAV and supporters, would she be able to enter "The Visitor" into your most "English" folk awards? What are the rules of eligibility?

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:35 AM

Dave - I agree about the fluidity but my point was that the birthplace of the singer does not dictate what the content is.
Pauls post emphasises this.

Also Paul - the question was 'Are these restricted to English material?' not who / what won (but it is a good song).

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM

Black Hawk - Surely the songs / tunes - are the subject of this thread not the performers

I purposely wanted to avoid that, like I said. Someones birthplace or place of residence is pretty fixed and objective. Songs however are far more fluid and subjective. There are too many folk songs that have travelled all over the world and cannot be tied to a particular country. A particular song could, to butcher a well known line, travel from England, through Ireland and Maine, and then it returns to old England again!

It's all speculative anyway, for now. Lets cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM

I can state without fear of contradiction that The Keith Marsden Memorial Trophy presented to the winner of the singer/songwriter competition at Saltburn was won last year by a Scot singing a song about the 1881 Whitby lifeboat rescue of "The Visitor".

So English subject matter but (horror of horrors) won by a Jockess.

I'm looking at the Trophy sat on top of our piano as I type this.....oh and she has a very English surname despite being born in Glasgow.

So would this Scottish upstart be able to enter WAVs "English" folk awards? Would she want to anyway..........

"The Visitor"

I really hate this nationalistic crap though I do like trad English music.

Paul

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

My Grandfather was indeed a Kuban Cossack, Volgadon and, I believe, by paternal link, so are my Father, me and my sons!

The Reverend Zachary Polakow. Married Elithabeth Federow of Bialystok and went to live in her hometown during one of the Stalinist purges. When Russia looked like taking over that part of Poland again at the tail end of WW2 they left for Italy, France and, eventualy, England where he was ordained as a Russian Orthodox priest. He wrote a number of books, none of which I have unfortunately, including one on the betrayal of the Cossacks by the allies after the war.

He died in the early 60's but Elizabeth, my Baboushka, lived until the mid 90s. In 1972 she remarried. My new 'step grandad' was Dimitri Karolkiw, a Colonel and Cossack in the Imperial Russian army until the revolution when he left for the Cossacks old enemies land - Turkey! After travelling through Europe he also finished up in England where him and my Grandad were main supporters of the Free Cossack movement, intent on the liberation of Russia from Communist hands by any means.

Just shows how English I am:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:48 AM

Dave Polshaw 15 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM - I have purposely left the played songs off so we do not get into disagreements about whether they were folk songs, what their origins were and so on.

Surely the songs / tunes - are the subject of this thread not the performers.
In my local clubs (at least 14/wk NE England) the majority of players are locals (therefore English) but the songs are split between Scottish, Irish & American with a rare English song. Even more rare is a Welsh song.
Majority of tunes will be Irish with a smattering of Scottish.

From: Folkiedave - You mean like Saltburn and the Fred Jordan Award for unaccompanied traditional singing? Or Satlburn and the singer songwriter competition?
Are these restricted to English material?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:34 AM

Ok, that was a little unfair, it would have been better to say do something positive about it instead of whining.

As for the handle, I lived in Volgograd and I lived by the Don. Was your grandfather a Kuban cossack?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM

WalkaboutsVerse wrote:

WAV is certainly not "extremely rich", but, when I get back into work, I shall soon join the EFDSS. In the meantime, if no-one minds, and if no-one already has, I may soon alert them to this thread, and the idea of an EFDSS annual awards - broadcasted in association with the Beeb, as suggested above.

I am already alerted to the thread and the idea.

Johnny Adams
EFDSS Vice Chair: Promotions

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

WAV is certainly not "extremely rich", but, when I get back into work, I shall soon join the EFDSS. In the meantime, if no-one minds, and if no-one already has, I may soon alert them to this thread, and the idea of an EFDSS annual awards - broadcasted in association with the Beeb, as suggested above.