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BS: Political Correctness creates tension

GUEST,Al 19 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM
artbrooks 19 Jul 08 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Al 19 Jul 08 - 08:00 AM
Anne Lister 19 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM
Bobert 19 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM
Riginslinger 19 Jul 08 - 09:21 AM
Skivee 19 Jul 08 - 01:39 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 19 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM
Lox 19 Jul 08 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,twonk 19 Jul 08 - 11:17 PM
Riginslinger 19 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM
GUEST,twonk 20 Jul 08 - 12:26 AM
Acorn4 20 Jul 08 - 04:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM
Stringsinger 20 Jul 08 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,lox 20 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Harmony Sovereign 20 Jul 08 - 09:56 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 08 - 10:10 PM
Riginslinger 20 Jul 08 - 10:31 PM
Ebbie 20 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 08 - 11:27 PM
Ebbie 20 Jul 08 - 11:28 PM
Ebbie 20 Jul 08 - 11:45 PM
Alice 20 Jul 08 - 11:53 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 21 Jul 08 - 12:02 AM
Ebbie 21 Jul 08 - 01:56 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 08 - 01:59 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Jul 08 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Harmony Sovereign 21 Jul 08 - 09:54 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 21 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Al 21 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,HiLo 21 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM
Ebbie 21 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM
Wesley S 21 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM
Ruth Archer 21 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,HiLo 21 Jul 08 - 02:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM
DougR 21 Jul 08 - 05:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Terry 21 Jul 08 - 05:43 PM
pdq 21 Jul 08 - 06:05 PM
TIA 21 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 08 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,lox 21 Jul 08 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Terry 21 Jul 08 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Harmony Sovereign 21 Jul 08 - 07:32 PM
DougR 21 Jul 08 - 07:41 PM
GUEST,Harmony Sovereign 21 Jul 08 - 09:20 PM
Riginslinger 21 Jul 08 - 09:29 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 08 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Peter 22 Jul 08 - 07:24 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM
Acorn4 22 Jul 08 - 08:23 AM
TIA 22 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Peter 22 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM
Little Hawk 22 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,TIA 22 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,lox 22 Jul 08 - 07:01 PM
Emma B 22 Jul 08 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Joy Bringer 22 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,lox 22 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM
Sorcha 22 Jul 08 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Sovereign 22 Jul 08 - 08:30 PM
Sorcha 22 Jul 08 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,Terry 23 Jul 08 - 05:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Terry 23 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Joy Bringer 23 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jul 08 - 08:21 PM

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Subject: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

Political correctness seems to be a bone of contention on this site. In reality PC tries to make up for past perceived inequalities by replacing meritocracy and equality of opportunity with equality of outcome through discrimination against people with the same physical qualities as those perceived to have been beneficiaries of other systems in the past !



Political correctness encourages offence to be taken where none is intended, encourages the re-writing and re-thinking of history along with the abandonment of pride in country, is a serious threat to free speech and, despite being portrayed to be in the name of tolerance, is completely intolerant of anyone who does not act in a politically correct fashion.


There are those here who want to use it as a form of censorship and tries to bully other members into conforming with a certain point of view which usually defies common sense.

Those spouting political correctness assume that they have the right to give opinions for people they perceive to be from "minorities" without usually first consulting the people they purport to speak for. e.g. people say that you should not use the term "Brainstorming" as it could be offensive to people with epilepsy. Epilepsy Action, however, say, "We are often asked about the word 'brainstorming' and whether its use is acceptable. If the word is being used to describe a meeting where participants are suggesting ideas, then its use is not offensive to people with epilepsy." See also the stories and views people have sent us and the Not In My Name Campaign on this website for further examples of people using political correctness where it was not asked for, not needed and certainly not wanted.

Political Correctness hasn't helped this country to change into a more tolerant place, it created barriers. Those wirelessing on here sprouting political correctness on every thread are intolerant of any view which is not in line with theirs and yelp for every thread to be closed if it mentioned a religion or group.

Political correctness creates divisions where there should not be any and divides people up into stereotypical boxes all the time so it has actually made us more race conscious and more sex conscious. Children, who do not naturally see colour as being an issue, are being taught from a very young age that it is an issue - this can hardly be described as progress.


Countries and attitudes evolve through experiences and education and we do not believe that the British are an intolerant nasty bunch of people who have been saved by political correctness. In fact the reality is quite the opposite. A normally tolerant and kind nation is being pushed in the opposite direction by the political correctness that has infected our public services, our institutions and our way of life.

Political correctness here limits free speech which is unhealthy and very dangerous. Hear that Lox !
    Apparent source is http://www.thetemplars.e7even.com/en/pc.shtml. When you copy-paste information, please tell us where it came from - and remember that there is a one-screen limit on non-music information that is posted here. If it's longer than one screen, abridge it.
    Oh, and since you are a guest, you are expected to be on your best behavior. Calling people "arsehole" is not acceptable.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:51 AM

Good cut'n'paste job there. Al. Do you have an opinion of your own, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:00 AM

Offensive Post Removed:

A REPEAT OF WHAT JOE SAID:

Oh, and since you are a guest, you are expected to be on your best behavior. Calling people "arsehole" is not acceptable.

el joe clone


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Anne Lister
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM

"Arsehole" may not be politically incorrect, but it's hardly a polite or even reasonable response, is it?

You mention a website, Al, without saying which website. A lot of what you've written has no reference points or relevance to discussions on this forum. What, on Mudcat, has prompted you to start this thread? And why so aggressive?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM

The reality is that, yes, political correctness does create some tension... How could it not... I mean, most of us here ahve a few years on yus and were brought up in a different time when the "isms" were part of our culture and change is difficult, especially for those who have to make it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:21 AM

"Political correctness here limits free speech which is unhealthy and very dangerous. Hear that Lox !"


                      But that's an interesting comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Skivee
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 01:39 PM

I've always thought that free speech was unhealthy. Now I find out it's dangerous, too???!!!???
Damn, now I shall have to examine the trembling underpinnings of my inadequate world view.
There, now. I currently believe that political correctness is the fault of those Liberals at Fox News...oh, and the Jews, of course.
Thanks for the thought provoking post, Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

Skivee--those Jews are trouble makers. ;)

One day early in the days of WWII a Nazi soldier stop an old Jew on the street. "Old man," he demanded, "who caused the war?"
The old man answered, "The Jews...and the bicycle riders."
"Why the bicycle riders?" asked the soldier.
The Jew, in typical Jewish fashion, replied, "Why the Jews?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Lox
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:26 PM

In a previous thread (concerning British Criminality) I deduced the following:


"You are not therefore discussing the report.

You are using it as an excuse to push your agenda."


two points ...

1. You really are full of tension aren't you,

and

2. Gotcha :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,twonk
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:17 PM

"PC" only exists in the fetid bitter imagination
of those who deny they hide so much to feel so guilty about


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM

I think it depends of whether you're the victim or the assailant.

                   If you're Jesse Jackson and you're going after a school board for trying to bring real education into the public classroom, you're the assailant.

                   If you're a white contractor and you don't have anything to bid on because all of the projects in your area are set aside for minority contractors, you're the victim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,twonk
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:26 AM

political incorrectness is a 2 edged sword


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:32 AM

Political correctness actually goes against the grain in Britain due to the establiahed national tradition of taking the p*** out of anything and everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

Labelling courtesy towards others as "political correctness" is a way of helping people to feel better about carrying on with such discourtesy. It's a term better avoided, and it is mostly used in my experience by such people for that very reason.

Here is the first verse of a song I wrote about this a few years ago, and posted later in a similar thread here, "Descriptive terms, appropriate or not?":

Poison in Jest

Now there's a funny way of talking called "Politically Correct" -
Silly fools who think that words have some kind of effect.
Now that's surely not a notion that's entitled to respect -
So I'd like to poke a little fun at this strange dialect.
For when I meet some oddity I like to speak direct.
No, I never mess around with being "Politically Correct".
So I speak to them direct, that's what they must expect -
No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."


If you'd like to see the rest of the song, it's in this thread at 07 May 00 - 01:34 PM. (And looking at it I was pleased to see the response Rick Fielding made to it in the next post - which I wish I could live up to.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:12 PM

The idea of "political correctness" is a knee-jerk response without investigating the
motive or meaning of an issue. PC is both liberal and conservative. "Free Market Solutions" is an example of PC. "Support Our Troops" is another. "Flag pin lapels". "Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here". "Mental Recession" (Phil Gramm).

These are all PC reactions.

I think that if a person really thinks through an issue or proposition then PC can be
avoided successfully. It has been associated with just liberal thinking but this is not true.

PC is reactionary thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM

Prescribed "Political Correctness" is an untenable idea.

A system of rules governing what words are acceptable in society is completely inappropriate and unworkable as the parameters vary enormously depending on context.

___________


The greatest thing about a lot of british humour is its subtlety.

Social and political satire and intelligent humanistic observation are the cornerstone of British humour.

What matters is the motivation behind a comment.

One person might say "I respect foreigners" and yet it is obvious that they are a total bigot.

Another might make a racist joke ... but parody it ... and in the process undo some of the tension that racism causes.

It isn't the words, it's the motivation and the intent.


_________



Scapegoating and blaming groups of individuals for ones difficulties in life on the basis of their race, religion, sexuality or whatever is completely unacceptable.

If someone deliberately goes out of their way to encourage others to resent minorities, they are breaking British law and if they do it in my company I will make a donkey out of them.

_________


The motivation behind this thread is to try to associate abhorrance for racism with a catwalk campaign for politically correct language.

The two have nothing to do with each other.

I associate the term "politically correct" with models who use their fingers to denote the quotation marks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Harmony Sovereign
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:56 PM

Guest, Al did a cut and paste. So what?

It's the truth either way.

I commend Guest Al for his post. It reaches to the very heart of the liberal mental disorder.

Please be tolerant of my opinion.
    No problem with a copy-paste, as long as it doesn't exceed our one-screen limit. The trouble with this one, is that it was an unattributed copy-paste (until I added attribution).
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:10 PM

It reaches to the heart of both the liberal and the conservative mental disorder. ;-) They're both politically correct in their own fashion. And then there are the Muslims and Jews...both politically correct...in their own fashion. In fact, almost every identifiable group suffers from the curse of unthinking and inappropriate political correctness.

So, why don't we just call it by its real name?

Hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:31 PM

Yes, LH, I think you nailed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM

Baloney.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:27 PM

Baloney? Bad for your heart if you eat too much of it!

But why are you saying "baloney", Ebbie? I don't follow that reaction at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:28 PM

In my oh-so-humble opinion. Come on, guys. It is not hypocrisy to be aware of the power of words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:45 PM

"In fact, almost every identifiable group suffers from the curse of unthinking and inappropriate political correctness.

"So, why don't we just call it by its real name?

"Hypocrisy." Little Hawk

Little Hawk, I hadn't read your latest post when I posted my last one but I stand by it. It seems to me that some people are deliberately obtuse when they come to this subject.

It seems an easy call to me. Political correctness is being a human being who is caring enough to be sensitive to others. The day is way past when people, either sex, should be able to feel comfortable using words, phrases and metaphors that are either designed to hurt someone or to "keep someone in his place". Using those words, phrases or metaphors because it's "just a habit I can't break" or "S/he knows I was just kidding" or "It's true, you know" are all justifications I have heard. It is not acceptable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:53 PM

The term "politically correct" has been used in so many different ways in different countries, time periods, contexts, that you really should define your terms more to discuss it.

Are you talking about politically correct as used by the American Left in the 70's and 80's, or by American Right in the 1990's, or by cognitive psychologists studying how language shapes behavior, or by.... well, see Wikipedia's description of how "political correctness" has been used by many different groups of people with different definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:02 AM

Ebbie, your definition of PC is grand; we should all strive to be sensitive to others. What I object to is authority enforcing such sensitivity on people. I'm grew up in the sticks and stones era, when we pretty much took care of offensive speech on our own...and I don't necessarily mean physically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:56 AM

But John, if you object to "authority enforcing such sensitivity on people", don't you agree that the Civil Rights movement was correct and needed? I spent my teen years in Virginia in an era where drinking fountains and doorways were still marked 'White Only' and 'Colored Only' and the bus terminal was divided between the spacious hall for Whites and a small, dark, walled-off area was for the Blacks, notwithstanding that there were always more Blacks in the terminal than there were Whites. And of course, when it came time to board the bus, not only did the Whites go first but the Blacks trudged on to the back.

Those are just small examples of what we, as a people, did before we were forced to change. I would hope you would agree that we are the better for it. I would never, never, never go back to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:59 AM

Oh, well, I think we were talking about different things, then, Ebbie. In fact I know we were. We agree on the essentials of this matter.

You were considering one common form of abuse. I was considering another very different but still common form of abuse. We've both seen plenty of both types, I'm sure. Yes, I fully understand the wrongness of the particular form of abuse you were referring to.

Context is everything when one is discussing this sort of thing.

I was referring to the tendency of people to be unfair to this or that other group of people due to some politically correct form of stereotypical thinking that they, as a group, have gotten into as a regular habit...usually because it's "in style" at the time, and it's therefore taken for granted.

Example: Many if not most British people in the onetime "Raj" in India had an oh-so-superior attitude toward any and all Indians, and felt quite justified in that attitude and in assuming that "All Indians are like that, you know...they're lazy, undependable, basically dishonest"...regardless of the unique circumstances of a situation or an individual.

Example 2: Many Indian people in the onetime "Raj" in India had a negative attitude of their own toward any and all British people, and felt quite justified in saying that "Oh the British are all like that, you know...pompous, full of themselves, stiff, inflexible, completely lacking in any warmth or feeling"...regardless of the unique circumstances of a situation or an individual. Some British people were not pompous, full of themselves, and lacking in all warmth. Some were genuine friends of the Indians and sympathized with the Indian desire for self-government.

Those were forms of political correctness that afflicted many people at that time. We presently sympathize more with the Indians of that period, because the British held the power at the time and colonialism is seen as anacronistic and unjust now...but that kind of prejudice against people merely because they are not "one of us" can be a very nasty thing going in either direction, because it's not an honest attitude that recognizes individuals, it's a prejudice.

The kind of political correctness I was alluding to was the kind that does not eliminate prejudice, but enshrines and exacerbates it.

When you treat people in any unequal or biased fashion, simply because of which outwardly identifiable group they are in, you may be serving a form of political correctness that is in vogue at the time amongst your group. So you then do to those others what you wouldn't want done to you! That's what I call hypocrisy.

For a good Nazi, for example, it was politically correct to turn in a Jew to the authorities, not because he'd done anything, but just because he was a Jew. It was extremely politically correct.

Therefore, a good Nazi was doing to a Jew what he would not under any conditions want done to himself. I call that hypocrisy...a very extreme example of it.

It's also hypocritical to interview several applicants for a job, but to favor one over the others because of his or her racial or cultural background or gender. You should not hire people because of stuff like that (unless it relates very directly and specifically to the particular nature of the job). Differences like that don't matter on most jobs. You should hire them simply because you honestly think they'd be good at the job, and you should hire the best applicant. Period. No profiling. No prejudice. No quotas. No government looking over your shoulder and telling you to find a racial or cultural or gender stereotype and then hire on the basis of that. That's prejudice, enshrined as being politically correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:38 AM

Umm, LH, those two forms of political correctness aren't. They are prejudices pure and simple.

Anyway, there is a difference between common courtesy and PCness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Harmony Sovereign
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:54 AM

It seems to me that the opposite of political correctness is common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM

Yes, Ebbie, I do believe that the Black civil rights, movement and ending legal discrimination by law was a good thing. But civil rights is not the PC I had in mind when I wrote last night. I'm thinking of things that make up the color and fabric of moment to moment living.

So, for instance, I deliberately wrote the Jew/Nazi joke (Jun 20) using stereotyping descriptors for the Jew. Some would call that joke racist and demeaning; some might find it funny; some both. In some places I might be tried by the legal system and fined for hate speech. Bicycle riders can be a touchy bunch.

One cannot, in many jurisdictions, as a police station or firehouse, put pictures on the wall or desk, of the opposite sex in scantily clad and/or provocative poses...even of one's own spouse. It is said they create a 'hostile work environment'.

In a county park near my house is the 80 or so year old mansion of the donor of the park; it is considered an historic site. Parties, art shows, tours of the home and other events used to be held there. The entire second floor became off limits to the public (and for all I know even those working there) because it is not accessible to certain handicapped (differently-abled) people.

While I am not with out sympathy for disabled folks--my own step father found walking extremely difficult because of childhood polio, while I am not unsympathetic to minorities--I am one, by religion, I don't accept the premise that the few should control the lives of the many.

My first job, out of college, was with the state Department of Employment (the Unemployment Office). One of the major criteria for determining eligibility for people who had quit a job, was 'whether or not a reasonable person acting under the same set of circumstances would have quit or had cause to quit.' That was not the exact wording, but close. Now it is all about 'me'--"I don't like, I can't do, I can't have, I am offended, so you have to accommodate me or I'll sue you." Terrific way to run a community!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

No shortage of PC on this site !


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM

Political correctness is one of the truly great (and there are many to choose from) absurdities of the 20th century. It is just a series of lttle fascisims that will not a decocracy that allows people to be offended. I hate the entire concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM

"a series of lttle fascisms"

It has become that, yes. It began with genuine good intentions to redress old grievances and to eliminate old prejudices and inequalities, but then it soon degenerated into a form of fascist mental lockstep (in many cases...but not in all cases).

One needs to think independently to avoid being taken in by such flim-flammery. Such was also true of the Indians and the British during the days of the Raj. Such was also true of individual Germans living in the Third Reich, yet most of them were taken in by the Nazi flim-flammery...or they went along with it, even if they weren't entirely taken in by it.

Most people do not do nearly as much independent thinking as they ought to. They tend instead to follow the herd, primarily because they are very afraid what the herd might say about them if they don't. That is the force that lies behind the misuse of certain forms of political correctness and what gives it its strength.

"What will they say about me if I don't follow the common guidelines on this? How might it affect my career? Oh, merciful heavens..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM

John on the Sunset Coast: "In a county park near my house is the 80 or so year old mansion of the donor of the park; it is considered an historic site. Parties, art shows, tours of the home and other events used to be held there. The entire second floor became off limits to the public (and for all I know even those working there) because it is not accessible to certain handicapped (differently-abled) people.

"While I am not with out sympathy for disabled folks--my own step father found walking extremely difficult because of childhood polio, while I am not unsympathetic to minorities--I am one, by religion, I don't accept the premise that the few should control the lives of the many."


John, I assume you live on the West Coast (California?). I am from Oregon which has mores and nuances a great deal like those of California. (although it grieves Oregonians. :)

In Oregon - and, for that matter, Alaska - an 80-year-old site is grandfathered in; things of that age, and younger, are not required to install lifts or special means to accommodate 'differently abled' people. I suspect the curators, managers, board, of the place you mention are simply trying to avoid being hassled.

One of the things that boards, etc, of such places can do - and many have done - is to install closed circuit videos of inaccessible floors that can be viewed on accessible floors. Others have installed single-seat lifts.

The point is that today we, as community, try to make it possible for everyone to live as normal lives as can be done. To that end, there are ramps and lifts for wheelchairs to fishing spots; there are even two-lane asphalted paths in state parks so that those confined to wheelchairs can experience the outdoors as they were able to do before disease or accident or other disaster oeverwhelmed their lives.

I am all for that. A man in his 60s was telling me one day that he objects to that, that he figures that if he becomes incapacitated he will accept that that part of his life is over. I say, horse puckey! It is only reluctance to spend money (What is money for?) and lack of empathy and imagination that keep us from opening wide the doors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM

"It is only reluctance to spend money (What is money for?) and lack of empathy and imagination that keep us from opening wide the doors."

Good point, Ebbie! What IS money for? Well, it was originally invented to serve people...by making trade easier. People now serve it and they seek it for its own sake. They never feel they have enough of "it", no matter how much they get. They'll do anything for "it", specially if they can get a really LARGE amount of "it". They will do utterly insane and antisocial things for a large amount of "it". That's the problem, in a nutshell. The people have become addicted to the very tool they themselves once created....much as they became addicted to the various Gods they created at one time or another.

A God is an idea. Money is also an idea. People become very attached to certain ideas, specially when those ideas become common currency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

As I've said before. "I'll never have everything I want. But I already have everything I need."


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

I agree with Ebbie: unfortunately, human beings don't like change. Sometimes the only way to make change happen for the better is to enshrine it in law.

Many of the anecdotal stories we hear in the UK about "PC gone mad" have very little truth in them. And many of the people who use the phrase "PC gone mad" are simply reluctant to acknowledge their own prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

Darned right people don't like change. Dogs are like that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:27 PM

You cannot "make" people change by passing ridiculous laws. Many of the people I know who refer to PC gone mad are offended at the very concept of language control..so should everyone in a democratic state. Being anti PC does not equate with being a person of perjudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM

Being anti PC does not equate with being a person of perjudice.

Not necessarily. But it can be a very convenient cover for people who are prejudiced.

I can't remember the last time I heard anybody use the term Political Correctness except as an Aunt Sally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:25 PM

Rigenslinger: was Jesse Jackson practicing good PC when he used the "N" word to describe African-Americans?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

"Being anti PC does not equate with being a person of perjudice."

Not necessarily. But it can be a very convenient cover for people who are prejudiced.

I can't remember the last time I heard anybody use the term Political Correctness except as an Aunt Sally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:43 PM

I find the phrase rather chilling in an Orwellian sort of way. Everyone has a right to their opinions and prejudices, and everyone has a right to be offended. All we really need is good manners, not oppressive legislation which would only serve to polarise the bigoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:05 PM

Everybody is bigoted. It just depends at whom, when and how much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: TIA
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM

I agree with PDQ. So do the folks on Avenue Q .

Actually, this one is even better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:33 PM

You got it, pdq. It's only the people who are excessively bigoted and excessively public in expressing it who really get on the nerves of the rest of us generally.

DougR - Which "n" word did he use? I sure hope it wasn't that dreadful term "n-----ie--lt--ish"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:20 PM

Everyone does indeed have their prejudices.

Some have insight and others are completely non self aware.

People can say insensitive, cruel or just plain stupid things about others for whatever reason.

People have freedom of speech and that is how it should be.

The problem arises when somebody encourages others to scapegoat and blame groups based on their ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion etc.

This is deliberate and conscious fostering resentment and creates divisions tensions and fear.

This isn't about calling people names and hurting their feelings.

This particular thread is a direct continuation of the "criminality in Britain" thread which was posted with the thinly veiled purpose of stoking up resentment against foreigners in general.

History tells us that this kind of button pushing leads to violent discrimination and victimisation.

The PC debate is a facile distraction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:32 PM

It most certainly is lox, well said on all points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Harmony Sovereign
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:32 PM

"The PC debate is a facile distraction."

Is this not the typical response of the liberal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:41 PM

LH: I refuse to believe that you require a explanation for the "N" word.
You're putting me on, right? It is a name that was commonly used to describe Negroes, particular in the southern states, during the 19th and part of the 20th century. Evidently it is still commonly used by African-Americans but it is considered in very bad taste for a white person to use it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Harmony Sovereign
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:20 PM

"Evidently it is still commonly used by African-Americans but it is considered in very bad taste for a white person to use it."

Very true. This is the ultimate in hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:29 PM

The problem with ostracizing a word like that is, when the wrong person doesn't use it, he gets to feel good about it, and he might not have earned the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:17 PM

Yes, Doug, I was putting you on. We all know what the famous "n" word is. It's the only world left now in the English language that white people are so terrified of that they can't even speak it aloud or even print it out fully EVEN when they're explaining to other white people how bad it is...!

I find that kind of intriguing, that level of fear, because it's not a behaviour much due to respect, it's mainly due to abject fear. There were some great standup humorists back in the 70's who know how to confront this kind of thing directly and show how ultimately silly it is for us all to live in fear and trembling of a word...any word. They did this by using the various most dreadful words of the day (including the N word, the F word, etc) in such a ridiculously repetitive and obviously satirical fashion as to completely demystify the word and reduce its emotional impact down to zilch. There's a way of doing that, but it takes courage and finesse, combined with a measure of real compassion and understanding.

Such courage has become rarer of late. So have the finesse, compassion, and understanding. Fear rules the dialogue now.

People are content now to only look at the cover of the book (as with the recent issue of the New Yorker), and skip reading the contents altogether. They form a snap judgement on the cover alone, because it spares them exerting mental effort. This is not so good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:24 AM

Just on the ITV news there a man was killed at a busy railway station as he had a piss on the track. The 41-year-old Polish man got off the busy platform and was electrocuted as he pissed on live wires. The incident occurred at Vauxhall station in London.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM

'Tourist killed after urinating on railway line'

'According to The Sun, the Polish tourist went to find somewhere discreet to go to the toilet and his urine splashed on to the live rail.

According to Network Rail, more than 60 people are killed on railway lines each year.'
- from The Scotsman

NB it is also reported that there are no public toilets at the station!

your point guest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:23 AM

Re the N word, an interesting case in point is the opening chorus of the musical "Showboat", by Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein.

The original chorus went something like:-

"N****** all work on the Mississipi."

This went through various stages such as:-

"Darkies all work on the Mississipi."

"Colured Folks Work on the Mississipi"

to "We all work on the Mississipi"

until finally, no one worked on the Mississipi and the opening chorus was omitted completely. The accompanying article is quite enlightening on OH's original intentions:-


New Statesman article


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: TIA
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

If I remember correctly when I first heard this term used in the late 1980s, it was referring to the phenomenon of calling a group of people what *they* wanted to be called...e.g. Native Americans rather than Indians, or Disabled (Differently-Abled?) instead of Crippled. Anyone who objects to Political Correctness by this definition (perhaps my personal definition?) is Etiquette-Challenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

My point is Emma, "Don't piss on railway lines". You said there are toilets in Vauxhall Station ? Please tell us when they were removed, I used a week ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM

Well Peter it's sound advice not to urinate near an electric railway line but I fail to see what at all that has to do with any discussion about 'political correctness' except, of course, once more offering someone, however inappropiately, the opportunity of commenting negatively on a foreign (Polish being the 'flavour of the month) visitor to the UK.

Not even a legal economic immigrant mind you but a school teacher on vacation to improve his English!

and btw - I don't know just where you went but the official list of facilities for the station is as follows -

Station Facilities ^ TopService Details
First Class Lounge No
Seating Area Yes
Waiting Rooms Yes
Women-Only Waiting Room No
Trolleys No
Refreshment Facilities No
Toilets No
Baby Changing No
Pay Phone Yes -
Public WiFi No
Public WiFi - Note Find WiFi Hotspots around Vauxhall station
Web Kiosk No
Post Box No
Tourist Information Office No
ATM Machine Yes
Bureau de Change No
Shops Yes

From The National Rail Enquiries webpage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

"the phenomenon of calling a group of people what *they* wanted to be called"

Ah...but who is "they"? It's true that some "Native Americans" (primarily some in the USA and Canada) now wish to be called by the term "Native Americans" only and they refer to themselves as such...while others, however, still prefer to be called "Indians" and they refer to themselves as such, while others are more fond of the term "First Nations", etc...still others like to be called "Amerindians", Inuit, Abenaki, Indios, Chippewas, whatever....

So who is the "they" who has the final word on the matter? There is no such "they", and there isn't going to be, because there is no final word on the matter. There never will be, because we don't all have the same cultural habits and we never will, and neither will Amerindians. They are not homogeneous, any more than White poeple are...they are many nations and indiduals with many different ideas. They do not agree among each other...no more than us White people do. ;-) They never have agreed among each other, and neither have the Europeans. Just look back at history.

Of course we should call people what they wish to be called (if we can figure out what that is), but they simply don't all have the same wishes in that regard, and how the hell are we to determine what their specific wishes ALL are in each individual case and in every region if we are not telepathic, and why should we be taken to task for innocently referring to someone somewhere as an Indian when he doesn't mind being referred to as an Indian and refers to himself as an Indian? Why should we be taken to task for that just because someone somewhere else has decided that their preference is the only preference that counts in regards to this, and that everyone in the world should now bow to their preference (including other Indians), and only use the term "Native American"??? Who made that person God over all the rest of us people?

There is no reason to automatically assume an offence where none was ever intended, and no one intends an offence when they call someone else an "Indian".

There is also no reason to try to force your particular preference on everyone else in the world...and that is what is at the heart of what is so wrong with this kind of political correctness we're seeing now. It is an attempt to emotionally blackmail all other people in the world into doing something your way, when your way may be nothing more than a very temporary, and probably arbitrary convention...a style that has caught on with somebody...a passing fad of language that has caught on with some quite vocal advocacy group who have decided that, by golly, they are going to convert everyone else to their preference.

For instance, most people call guide dogs, "guide dogs". Okay? But there is a blind girl (Oh, dear! I should have said "a vision-impaired female citizen") here in this town, a friend of us musicians...and she's a fine person to know, and a good singer too...however, she has one particular bee in her bonnet. She regards the term "guide dog" as being archaic and incorrect. She says it's not "guide dog" anymore, it's "dog guide". She never ceases correcting people about this and firmly drawing their attention to it, despite the fact that everywhere I go in this world I see the term "guide dog" being used in printed matter of every sort. So she doesn't seem to be having much effect on the official status quo about it. No matter. She won't be satisfied until she has managed to somehow convert everyone to saying "dog guide" instead.

Well, gee, does it really matter whether you say "dog guide" or "guide dog"? No, it doesn't, because everyone knows what you mean. I am fine with saying "dog guide" in her presence if it makes her happy, but it simply doesn't matter about something like that, and it's a waste of time arguing with the whole world endlessly about it and trying to make them all do it YOUR way. Who cares???? The same applies to whether or not various people say "Indian", "Amerindian", or "Native American" or some other such term. It simply doesn't matter. No offence is intended regardless of which of those terms a person uses.

(My above comments are not in regards to the term "n!gger", by the way. That term is clearly derogatory in today's culture. "Indian", however, is not the least bit derogatory, never has been, and never will be. It is usally quite clear from the context of the conversation whether someone means a descendant of the Amerindians or a person from India.)

What I'm saying here is, sure...you have your speech preferences and habits...and we all do...but don't try to badger everyone else in the world into sharing your speech preferences and habits. It's not your business to do that, and it won't win you any friends or improve anyone's lot in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

Thank you, Acorn4, for the link to the "Showboat" article.

My view of this is that if the song is being sung within the performance of the play, which is set in a period when the word had currency and it should be performed as written.

On the other hand, if it is being sung apart from the show, then the word should probably be euphemistically replaced.

As to Hammerstein's purposeful use of the word, it was not the only time he used his pen to point out racial injustice. "The King and I", and "South Pacific" both had race as a background.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM

Of course nobody can be expected to be telepathic, but if someone really feels strongly about having guide dog called a dog guide, it might be polite to do so (as it seems you do LH). Of course there is no universal "they", and that is just the point. Some Roberts prefer Bob,others Robbie, others Rob, others Bobbo. Why do we need to refer (often somewhat pejoratively) to simple courtesy as "political correctness"? And I am not talking about innocent first mistakes (like calling a "Bobbie" "Rob"). We all do that. But once a preference is stated, I see nothing wrong with a bit of effort to honor it (even if I don't quite get the distinction meself).


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:01 PM

TIA,

Your post of 22 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM is informative and helpful in assisting to find a more authentic definition of the term PC.

I agree with it as a bottom line, but the problem encountered when you try to apply it to ever changing reality is that of context.

I believe in honesty


... hang on ...


I don't equate honesty with narrow mindedness or rudeness I equate it with truthful expression of oneself and, as much as possible, unbiased reflection on ones strengths and weaknesses.

One thing all people honetly have in common in my opinion is their sense of curiosity about each other and about their differences.

This manifests in many ways, sometimes a desire to ask questions, sometimes to make jokes, sometimes to form opinions.

It is important to be honest with oneself above all about ones own humanity.

It is equaly important to have consideration for the humanity of others.

I enjoy finding humour in peoples differences and also in the common ground we share. The latter of these requires an ability to laugh at oneself.

In my mind any person is fair game to be ribbed ... as long as they are enjoying the joke.

It is easy to see if others are enjoying themselves or not.

If they aren't I change the subject.

If they are upset I apologize and I take note of how I upset them so I won't do it the same way in future.

Ultimately, the bottom line is that it it not for me to define another human nor to prescribe appropriate feelings to them.

My responsibility is myself and how I honestly feel in each and every different and aver changing context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:20 PM

L.H., TIA, lox - you kind of guys are the main reason I stay here.

Thank you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM

And when exactly do you apply these hidden qualities of yours lox ?
Certainly not to other members when your attacking their viewpoint and insulting them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

Read back ... the answers are all above.

By the way, attacking someones viewpoint does not equate to insulting them.

It constitutes intelligent scrutiny and it is the cornerstone of justice.

It must be a very frustrating obstacle.

I recommend more fruit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:54 PM

Or bran. Bran is good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Sovereign
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:30 PM

Some of the biggest BS I have ever seen defends political correctness on this thread.

Peace, love, dove. Light up another joint, why don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:03 PM

Thanks, I would love to but my husband is a copper, makes it just a tad more difficult, ya know?

You are making me tired, so I'm going away now. Nite, Guest, whoever you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:50 PM

The very concept of consciously contrived 'political correctness' is grossly offensive (to me) in that it implies the superiority of the perpetrator, thus by default the inferiority of the other party. However, offense has to be taken as well as given in order to exist in any real sense, otherwise it is no more than a misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM

This is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

I can't see anything in the least hypocritical in it. I can think of plenty of occasions where friends will say thing to each other that they would, quite correctly, take as offensive insults when used by an outsider.

"How are you doing you old bastard?" can be a perfectly friendly greeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Terry
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

Personally I wouldn't equate the word 'nigger' with the word 'bastard', but, each to his own..


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM

One for you Lox, Look like twisted carrots, warped leeks and bent cucumbers may soon appear on EU shop shelves as Europe's farm chief overrides opposition from leading producer countries to her marketing simplification plan.

One of the most popular jibes about EU over-regulation, where zealous Brussels bureaucrats are portrayed as wanting to set permitted sizes, lengths -- and "bendiness" -- for household fruit and vegetables, has come back to haunt the European Union.

More PC ! Peas & Carrots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness creates tension
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:21 PM

"Light up another joint, why don't you?"

I don't smoke. Why don't you have one for me, Sovereign?


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