BS: The Dark Knight

Subject: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:28 PM

Has anyone else seen the new Batman movie, The Dark Knight?
I saw it this afternoon.
Heath Ledger's performance was very effective.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:23 PM

My son is in the theater as I type. Ever since The Sixth Sense scared the bejesus out of him (in elementary school) he has been one to read reviews. I don't know if he did this time, but at 16, I imagine he can handle the content. I will have him read a few reviews and see which he agrees with.

I heard this is a very dark film, not cartoonish like the earlier files by a different director, etc. They said it is very dark, rather depressed. Do you agree? (This was on Fresh Air.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:25 PM

The first Batman film was a very dark film as far as I was concerned. There wasn't much to like about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I did not think it was any more depressing or violent than the other Batman films, but Ledger's acting as the Joker brought out the realism of a vicious mind rather than the cartoon type of Joker played by Nicholson. Heath Ledger became this tortured and torturing soul.
I cover my eyes when I know something might be more graphic than I want to hold in my memory.

In comparison, I thought Sophie's Choice was darker and more depressing than this film. With Batman, you always sense the cartoon good guys will prevail in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM

If you like chase scenes, the scene where a large semi truck goes end to end... well, I won't spoil it for you. If you go to the movies for chase scenes, you won't be disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 11:58 PM

This reviewer summed up Ledger's performance:

It's an astonishing performance, as extravagant and free ("deranged" might be a better word) as his Ennis Del Mar in "Brokeback Mountain" was inhibited and tongue-tied. -Tom Charity, CNN

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:32 AM

I thought Batman Begins was darker. This one is just another action romp, albeit a very good one. The Joker is evil to the bone. Too evil to be seriously dark.
A very enjoyable movie. Bloody loud though.

BTW, did anyone else see any Tom Waits in Heath Ledger's Joker? I wondered if he hadn't used Waits in the same way Johnny Depp used Keef Richard for Jack Sparrow.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:01 AM

I thought this was much darker than "Batman Begins" and closer to the spirit of the contemporary comic book version.

They did much more action scenes to this film because of complaints about a lack of action in Batman Begins, but the psychological drama that is taking place was fascinating.

Unlike a lot of films where the villan actually becomes likeable, Ledger created a character that made your skin crawl whenever he was on screen. You did not feel sorry for him.

What I also enjoyed was the fact that most of the stunts were NOT CGI effects. The director wanted to capture an essence of realism so when you see something blow up, it was actually blown up.

Brilliant movie!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

It broke the dollar record for an opening weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

While Ledger's performance was very good, I enjoyed Christian Bale's performance even more. I'd put him up there with Michael Keaton as an actor that can play a complex character with a lot of integrity, and who seems to get that these films are a reflection of the dark, foreboding, cartoonish nature of contemporary life in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:30 AM

I'm planning on seeing it this afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

Be forewarned, there is far more gratuitous violence in this one, compared to the other Batman films--I agree with some of the critics on that, which is why I wouldn't put this one down to the best of all the Batman films. I still think Michael Keaton's original is the gold standard of this franchise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:46 AM

Personally, I don't feel that the violence was "gratuitous" but important to the storyline. If you do not like violence in film, do not see this movie.

I enjoyed Michael Keaton's performance as Batman, but it was still too close to the camp version of the 1960's.   Christan Bale IS the Batman of contemporary comic books and conveys the conflicts and demons of the character better than any actor to put on a cape and cowl.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

We disagree, Mr. Olesko.

I wasn't just speaking of the performance of the lead actors. I was also commenting on the director's visions for their films.

When Tim Burton attempted to do the darker, more true to the contemporary comic book versions, they fired him and Michael Keaton, and we ended up with (choke) Val Kilmer and George Clooney. The George Clooney film is, in my opinion, the closest to the camp version of the TV show.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:03 AM

It's an easy character to screw up. If you've read the books there are a lot of ways to interpret Batman. He's been camp - he's been dark. I'm looking forward to the film. If you'd told me as a kid that some of these movies would be made I wouldn't have believed it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM

I guess you are right DV... they certainly became campier with Kilmer & Clooney - but but I do think that Tim Burton's vision, while certainly darker that the Adam West TV image, was really not in sync with what was happening in the comic book at the time. The second Burton film in particular had the ridiculous Penguin character as even the Joker character in the first film was more clownish than criminal.   

I loved the Burton films though, as Wesley points out there have been many ways to interpret Batman. I think each director and actor as well as comic book author and artist add something different to the character.   A great folk hero!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:48 AM

IMHO Batman Begins was by far the best in the franchise. Mostly for the supporting cast, Freeman, Oldman and Caine elevate any movie that they are in. I look forward to seeing this new one on DVD.

I loved Butron's visuals but I did not like Keaton as Batman and Nicholson was a terrible Joker.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:12 PM

Jack - That's one "IMHO" that I can agree with totally.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

I also totally agree with the current choice of Maggie over Katie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:42 PM

The way Nicholson phoned in his Joker role is now the stuff of Hollywood legend. No disagreement from me on that point, though I didn't think it was near as bad as people have subsequently claimed.

I watched the film a couple weeks ago for the first time since I saw it in theatres way back when.

I think he and Burton made a decision to make the role far more cartoonish, when the right note for Nicholson as an actor probably would have been to play up the debauched angle. Nobody does debauched better than Jack. So I'm not convinced their vision of the role meshed well. But I'll say this, Jack phoning it in is still a million percent better than anything most the whippersnappers now involved in the franchise can do!

There are other reasons, in my opinion, why Nicholson's Joker can't be dismssed out of hand.

One, Mr. Nicholson the actor still holds a tremendous amount of street cred in the Hollywood crime genre, due to his characterization of Jake Gittes. I cannot think of any other character who has risen above that role in the genre.

Second, the main problem for the Batman worshipping public, as far as I can tell, is most of them weren't comfortable with Burton's vision for the film, and their reaction to that most often gets couched in terms of Nicholson. I loved that film, but I'm a huge Burton fan. I likely never would have seen the original Batman had he not been the director, because I'm not drawn to the comic crime genre at all.

But I'll tell you what--I recently saw Sweeney Todd. You want to see something seriously interesting about Burton the director, rent that & the Batman with Nicholson, and compare the cartoonish nature of both characters in those two films. I think Johnny Depp was possibly channeling Nicholson's Joker without realizing it when he did Sweeney Todd.

One other thing--Nicholson was interviewed by MTV about this film, and had some very interesting things to say about it--including he was furious because no one consulted him about the role of Joker. That's bad form in Old Hollywood etiquette, to be sure, and something I didn't know until I read the interview.

For those interested, here is an excerpt of what Nicholson had to say about this film from the interview:

MTV: What do you think of another actor, Heath Ledger, playing the Joker in next summer's "The Dark Knight"?

Nicholson: Let me be the way I'm not in interviews. I'm furious. I'm furious. [He laughs.] They never asked me about a sequel with the Joker. I know how to do that! Nobody ever asked me.

MTV: It was never brought up?

Nicholson: No. It's like, in any area, you can't believe the reasons things do or don't happen. Not asking me how to do the sequel is that kind of thing. Maybe it's not a mistake. Maybe it was the right thing, but to be candid, I'm furious.

MTV: I'm surprised to hear you sounding competitive about a role like that.

Nicholson: Well, the Joker comes from my childhood. That's how I got involved with it in the first place. It's a part I always thought I should play.

MTV: Will you see the new film?

Nicholson: I'm not inclined to watch it because of what I said. But if it's a good movie, I'll catch up with it somewhere. I don't think they ever really captured Tim Burton's spirit [since he stopped being involved]. They kind of drove the franchise into the ground. Tim Burton's a genius. He had the right take on it. That's why I did the movie. I did the movie based on a single conversation with him. We both come from the cartoon world originally. We had similar ideas. Tim said [the Joker] should have a humorous dark side to him. [Burton is] one of the great moviemakers. I think the world of him. He's the most unassuming man. And he doesn't feel pressure. That's what I love about him. Once he's in there, he's smiling making the movie. That's it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:49 PM

Hmmm....Jack Nicholson's ego is showing again.....why would they consult him, when it is a completely different movie? Why should they?

Jack Nicholson is not an actor....he plays the same role in every film, and it gets tired.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

As I said Amergin, Old Hollywood etiquette is the reason why they would consult him--as an elder.

It would be the equivalent of not acknowledging the elders of folk music. Many musicians choose not to acknowledge their musician elders too.

While my feelings about acknowledging one's creative elders, I unequivocally would disagree that Jack Nicholson plays the same role in every film.

Both Chinatown and Five Easy Pieces were masterpieces of filmmaking, largely due to his very different characters in both films.

Nicholson is certainly over-rated as a star or celebrity. But as an actor? Not the old stuff he did. I haven't seen much of his recent stuff. But those roles he did in those two films at least, have yet to be topped by any actor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Above should have read 'while my feelings about acknowledging one's creative elder are pretty ambivalent...'

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM

Adam West was also pissed that they did not ask him when Michael Keaton was hired. That "old etiquette" is for the birds!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM

I just saw the Batman movie with Nicholson. What a dreadful mess. Nicholson was overdone but the Riddler - can't think of the actor's name - was idiotic. Three Stooges School of Acting graduates. I won't see the new one until it runs on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM

Did Nicholson consult with Caesar Romero?

It think the reason they didn't consult him was made clear in your post. Because he "phoned it in.

I think Amerigen has a point.
The Joker shouldn't at like a crazy lawyer on a motorcycle trip or a crazy Dad trying to hack up his family.

Jake Gittes was a great roll for Jack. The Joker was not.

On the other hand. I love Burton's movies. Big Fish was my favorite so far.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM

>>Nicholson was overdone but the Riddler - can't think of the actor's name - was idiotic. Three Stooges School of Acting graduates. I won't see the new one until it runs on TV.<<

I don't even remember the Riddler being in the movie! He must have been bad!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM

I believe SINSULL is perhaps confused.

Nicholson played the Joker in the 1989 Batman film that also starred Kim Basinger, with Michael Keaton as Batman and Burton directing.

The Riddler character appeared in the 1995 Batman Forever film, was portrayed by Jim Carrey. In that film, the director was Joel Schumacher, Batman was played by Val Kilmer.

The '95 film also has a very pathetic performance by the usually excellent Tommy Lee Jones.

But let's remember, none of these films are going to make the list of AFI's 100 best of all time, including this year's blockbuster.

People tend to applaud their own memories more than actually performances.

And memories are notoriously short lived.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:52 PM

>>But let's remember, none of these films are going to make the list of AFI's 100 best of all time, including this year's blockbuster.<<

I wouldn't be so sure as that. AFI likes big box office and big performances by stars and heath Leger is getting a ton of buzz.

I wouldn't be surprised by at least an Oscar for Heath.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:04 PM

I would be very surprised to see Heath get an Oscar. A nomination, maybe. But Bale is the better actor, and that was pretty plain to see in the film.

I'm not as enamored of the punk version of the Joker as many others seem to be. I think a lot of that is tied up in the celebrity death cult thing with Ledger, more than his actual performance.

It really doesn't matter what "Best 100 Films" list you use, this film still won't make most those lists.

You are competing (in this genre) with some heavy hitters like Baby Face or LA Confidential or Chinatown.

Sorry, but I just can't put this movie in that company.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:16 PM

I would have put it in the genre with the SF and fantasy movies. Even though I haven't seen it I doubt that it is as good as "the Wizard of Oz or Dr. Strangelove". All I'm saying is that there is a possibility it might get onto that list the next time is compiled.

If it is the biggest comic book movie of all time, which it could well be by the end of the year, it will get a serious look,

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:32 PM

Did I understand you correctly, Jack the Sailor, that you haven't yet seen The Dark Knight?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

It is impossible to compare apples and oranges, and we cannot see into the future, but I feel that the merits of The Dark Knight will garner awards and recognition on "lists" in the future. The performances of the entire cast was superb. Everyone brought their A game. The story was deeper than most films of the genre, and the psychological factors made it intriguing. It became more than just the makeup of a few individuals, the crowd reactions in certain scenes were riveting.

It is just a matter of opinion, but I have to agree with the incredible reviews that this film received. It is a work of art.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:43 PM

>>Did I understand you correctly, Jack the Sailor, that you haven't yet seen The Dark Knight?

I haven't, I said that very early in the thread. I'm just going by the reviews I have read and the my compulsive treading of the movie news in The LA Times.

I certainly do not pretend to judge of what is Oscar worthy. If it were up to me, Blade Runner would have won pretty much every category in 1983.

But the buzz is that Heath will be nominated and what is Hollywood but buzz? He could easily win on sympathy alone. If he is nominated, he won't be running against Bale. The Studio won't put them in the same category.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:48 PM

Yetm you feel qualified to comment on it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:52 PM

I have seen it and I feel qualified. My daughter has already seen it 3 times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:00 PM

I believe this film will hold up really well among the lightweight "summer blockbuster" lists of films.

But I'm not sure it can stand the scrutiny of being compared to Citizen Kane, is all.

But I'll leave that sort of prophesizing to you film experts. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:04 PM

Yes. I feel qualified to make the comments I have made.

If you care to point out why I wouldn't be, I am interested in your clearly stated opinion on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:10 PM

Based on your belligerent, ill informed commentary in two threads today where I have participated, I don't hold you in high enough regard to care to point out anything to you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

I have to say, in the last 25 years, I've rarely gone to the theater to see a movie. I went to this one with my son, who is about to graduate with a degree in film making. He saw it on opening night. He asked me if I'd go see it with him because it was such a well crafted film he didn't want me to miss it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:27 PM

So you are just going to stick with the snide remarks and unsupported insults? Why not? It seems to be working for you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:33 PM

Already, buzz about the next movie.

Angelina as Catwoman?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

Sorry - ditzier than usual. Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey. I liked Nicholson as the Joker.

I'll go sit in the corner now...

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:47 PM

On the other hand, I fell sound asleep during the one with the penguins. That was in a movie theater.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:53 PM

I love DeVito but that movie stank.

But Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy was worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Poll at People magazine online right now, "Should Heath Ledger get an Oscar nomination for his role in The Dark Knight ?"
right now, the tally is 98% Yes

clicky

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:37 PM

That might well be true, Alice. But none of them vote in the Academy Award nominations, and it is unrealistic to paint the most recent weekend summer blockbuster opening's popularity (or lack thereof) as a "shoe in" for anything, from top summer box office of all time to awards nominations for the year's best.

Every couple of summers some film that nails the "summer blockbuster" formula, and breaks the opening weekend records. The won't make the film the highest grossing film of all time, or possibly even of the summer. No way of knowing that yet.

Don't forget, there have been indie sleepers that became blockbusters (like Blair Witch Project), documentary films that became blockbusters (Fahrenheit 9/11), and far more critically acclaimed films like The Matrix, which are on the top of most film critics' "Best Summer Blockbusters" lists.

So it is a bit premature, Monday after the opening weekend of a film with a celebrity death cult following, to be making predictions as to what role in film history this film will have.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:49 PM

>>So it is a bit premature, Monday after the opening weekend of a film with a celebrity death cult following, to be making predictions as to what role in film history this film will have.<<

But yet someone did..

>>But let's remember, none of these films are going to make the list of AFI's 100 best of all time, including this year's blockbuster.<<

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:21 PM

Not qualified. Haven't seen it yet. I've got it on my NetFlix queue for when it's released on DVD.

But—I've been a Batman fan since I was about eight years old. Preferred him to Superman, partly because Batman was not (contrary to popular belief) a Superhero. He was just a normal (!?) human being who spent his nights cruising the roof-tops and back alleys in a costume and mask, as a vigilante law enforcer, and as such, other than being a well-honed athlete, he had no super-powers or special advantages like Superman did. Until the "invention" of Kryptonite, Superman was just too invulnerable, which had become something of a problem (undercut the excitement from the possibility that Superman might actually lose!), and so it had to be introduced. Anyway, Batman was my costumed hero of choice.

I hated, loathed, and despised the 1960s Batman television show. They were mocking one of my boyhood heroes!

I had some real misgivings when the Tim Burton version came out and I learned that Michael Keaton (Beetlejuice, Mr. Mom) had been cast as Bruce Wayne/Batman, I thought Burton's propeller beanie must have screwed itself into his brain. What the hell was he thinking!??

But the visuals in the ads looked good, and I decided to see it. Barbara wasn't particularly interested, but Nora, a friend of ours who collects comic books and graphic novels wanted to see it with someone, so I went with her.

Nora and I had the same feeling about the casting of Keaton, but once the movie got under way, we both agreed that the casting—casting against type—was bloody brilliant! Keaton, we felt, really brought it off beautifully.

We both thought Nicholson was a snort, and his portrayal of the Joker was good, but he did camp it up a bit, and he wasn't quite the Joker that I remembered as a kid.

I saw the sequel, Batman Returns, with Keaton again as Batman, along with Danny DeVito as the Penguin and Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. Once again, a pretty good job, I thought. Both the Penguin and Catwoman were a lot grittier than in the comic books, which was all to the good.

One role that shouldn't be forgotten in these two movies was that of Alfred Pennyworth, the Wayne family butler, played by veteran British actor Michael Gough. A sort of stalwart, steadying influence on the disturbed young man that he had raised after his parents had been killed. I especially like the touch in the first movie when Alfred, who thought Vicki Vale was just what Bruce Wayne needed to steady him and steer him into some kind of normal life, took it upon himself to usher her down into the bat cave while Bruce was sitting there at the computer—revealing Batman's true identity to her. And then, the subsequent conversation between the two of them ("Some people carry a briefcase to work. I wear a cape."). The indication here was that, unlike in the comic books, these characters might actually grow.

Maybe I got "Batmanned out," or something, but I couldn't summon enough interest to see the rest of the series, especially when Keaton was replace first with Val Kilmer and then George Clooney. From what I hear, I haven't missed much.

I saw Batman Begins on DVD, and franky, it was such a hodge-podge of speculative and highly detailed back-story and armchair psychoanalysis that I can't actually remember it very well. It certainly wasn't the Batman I grew up with. A friend loaned me the DVD, and I'm going to see if I can borrow it again. For the life of me, I can't remember much about it.

I'm really dubious of the current spate of back-stories on both Batman and Superman (the television series "Smallville," each episode of which a friend of mine insists on recounting to me in minute detail!). I sometimes wonder if this is yet another symptom of creative atrophy in the movie and television industry and an apparent inability to come up with original stories about new characters. Another symptom is the plague of re-makes of classic movies of yesteryear.

If I hear that someone plans to remake Casablanca, I shall go to Hollywood or wherever and, singing joyous hymns and anthems as I do so, I shall strangle the bugger with my bare hands!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:38 PM

The bad news is Madonna wants to play Ilsa

The good news is that no one wants to make the movie with her.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

Don, I think you will be pleased with the Alfred played by Michael Caine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:05 PM

Don, the one thing about comic books - they grew up. Sometimes faster than we did. I guess it started with Jack Kirby and Stan Lee and the gang at Marvel in the 1960's changing the image of what a comic book and a superhero should be. Comic books became compelling reading material instead of a diversion for kids.   Marvel built a universe where the heros were flawed, the same as the rest of us, and they basically resurrected an industry that had all but died out.

DC had to change with the times, and by the 1970's Batman returned to his original dark roots. (The early books had Batman using guns and killing the bad guys - but the tone changed to the goody-goody superhero by the time Robin hit the scene.)

In the 1970's, Batman dropped Robin (who became Nightwing) and even after fans brought the character back with another alter-ego, the second Robin was killed off.   The Joker would also cripple Barbara Gordon (aka Batgirl), and the tone of the book would come close to what Burton attempted to portray, and the home run was hit with the latest screen version of Batman.

This ain't your Grandpa's Batman!! The movie matches what is taking place in comic book these days - publications that are no longer aimed at kids.   

These characters are modern mythology - unique universes that create stories that entertain, educate, and inspire.

It if the furthest thing from creative atrophy that you can imagine. Some of the finest storytellers come from the pages of comic books. Even Stephen King wrote a series last year. It may not be everyones cup of tea.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:16 PM

Uh—Ron, I hate to mention this—I hate to have to mention this—and I'm not going to go into detail here, but ye gods! I grew up too, you know. I used to draw the stuff (still do now and then) and I've kept up with the evolution of comics, and on into graphic novels, and I have a couple of friends (e.g., the aforementioned Nora) who are very much into comic books and the collecting thereof. On one of my bookshelves, within arm's reach, I have a couple of books on the history of the comic book and several books on cartooning and illustration, along with a copy of Stan Lee's How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way. And in the other room, quite a collection of comics and graphic novels, from the late 1930s right up to date.

In this field as well as in folk music, my mind did not shut down in the early 1960s. I've been here all this time, and I have stayed awake and alert.

####

Good grief, Jack! The woman has delusions of something!!

The lovely and elegant Ingrid Berman and Madonna don't even inhabit the same universe!

Who does Madonna want to play Rick?

Maybe Leonardo DiCaprio, or maybe Russell Crowe. He has a nice dark suit. Ah! Here we go! Brad Pitt.

Good that she's the only one—so far—who wants to do it, but just in case, I'll keep working with those spring-loaded grip exercisers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:30 PM

"I've been here all this time, and I have stayed awake and alert."

Uh, sorry Don. Based on your earlier post I did not think you were alert to what was happening. I'm surprised at your reaction if you have been following the trends. Most fanboys seem to welcome the recent films.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:35 PM

Does anyone remember the TV series of Casablanca from the 1980's - with David Soul as Rick?   It died after a few episodes. I think there was an earlier series back in the 1950's.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: ranger1
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:41 PM

I never liked the Tim Burton Batman films. Michael Keaton just didn't do it for me as either Bruce Wayne or Batman. On the other hand, I love Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Christian Bale seemed to fit my memories of the comic better.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:23 AM

The only modern actor I see as Rick is Harrison Ford and he's about 15 years too old.

I have to say Don that I can't think of a worse possible Ilsa.

Well maybe one worse possibility than Madonna... Katie Holmes as Ilsa and Tom Cruise as Rick. Cocktail in a war zone!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Becca72
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

I saw The Dark Knight yesterday and LOVED it. The best Batman film so far, IMO. Heath Ledger was brilliant as The Joker.



Oh, and I'd rather watch The Dark Knight over Citizen Kane any day of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:39 AM

Glad you enjoyed it Becca72. I loved it too, and agree it is the best film of the franchise so far. I was underwhelmed by the first Nolan/Bates film, but thought this one was great.

I too thought Ledger was good, and the best Joker of the franchise so far. His performance will be a tough one to top for future Jokers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:45 AM

And I know I said yesterday I liked the first Michael Keaton/Tim Burton one better. But I only saw the film on Sunday, and I must say, it has grown on me. So now, I put it on a roughly equal footing with the Keaton/Burton film that launched the franchise as it is today.

Whether you liked the original Burton film or not (and over 50,000 fandom letters were received by the studio howling against the casting of Keaton and Burton to do the film before filming ever begain, so there are many who were opposed to the very idea of those two being involved), you must at least give it it's due for being able to launch this franchise into the stratosphere.

If Burton hadn't been successful enough, you wouldn't have today's Batman to swoon over!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:22 AM

Whoa. Didn't see this one coming. Just read this over at the Beeb. The PR & producer folk won't be happy with this development.

Batman star held over 'assault'

Batman star Christian Bale has been arrested by detectives investigating claims he assaulted two family members.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said a 34-year-old man had been arrested in connection with an allegation of assault, and remained in custody.

Mr Bale is alleged to have lashed out at his mother and sister in his suite at London's Dorchester Hotel on Sunday.

The Welsh-born actor stars in the title role in the latest Batman film, The Dark Knight.

"A 34-year-old man attended a police station in central London by appointment and was arrested in connection with an allegation of assault - he currently remains in custody," a police spokesman said.

The Hollywood star attended the European premiere of The Dark Knight last night in London's Leicester Square.

He had been due to meet radio journalists at the Dorchester to promote the film on Tuesday afternoon.

It has been reported that the assault allegation was originally filed at a police station in Hampshire.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman confirmed it had received an allegation from another force.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:49 PM

what's that saying... something like all press is good press?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:53 PM

He has been released and is denying the allegations. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:05 PM

That's exactly what I woulda done. Always deny the allegations.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:59 PM

Hmmmm, could be a pulbicity stunt, I hadn't thought of that. And the timing of the allegations and his casual "appointment" appearance days later does suggest it could be something along those lines.

But it seems to me there are limits to that old saw, Alice, and domestic violence and child abuse are two that leap to mind.

Now if he'd been caught with a prostitute, evaded taxes, been found w/drugs in possession, punched up a few in a pub brawl, that sort of thing, it would only add to his star cache and celebrity legend.

But shoplifting (of all things) pretty much wiped out Winona Ryder's career. I certainly never anticipated that shoving a few designer dresses and belts in a bag would send so many round the bend, but there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

Sorry, meant to include this little gem from the Hollywood Reporter story:

Bale's arrest coincides with a major ad campaign for the film and for Burger King, in which consumers are encouraged to give in to their "dark side." In one ad, a young man refuses to give up his seat to an old lady carrying heavy bags.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

DV

If I may borrow the logic of someone else on this thread. If you didn't see the arrest you are not qualified to talk about it.

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:30 AM

More shocking news about the accusations against Mr. Bale, this time from my son. He tells me the actor is actually the step-son of Gloria Steinem.

Does anyone know if that is true?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:13 PM

I saw the movie lst night and enjoyed it a lot. Easily the best Batman movie so far. But what really got me excited was to see the trailer for this movie:

The Watchmen

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:33 PM

He is Gloria Steinem's stepson.

The film I'm really looking forward to is The Spirit.   Probably my favorite comic book hero of all time!   Frank Miller appears to be doing a good job based on the limited clips that have been shown.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM

It looked very slick, but like more vigilane dystopia stuff, of which there has been LOTS lately in popular entertainment. Did you see Street Kings with Keanu Reeves and Forest Whittaker, for instance? I saw it because I love Forest Whitaker, and it was directed by the guy who wrote Training Day, which I really enjoyed.

What's up in the cultural zeitgeist with that, do you suppose?

I ask, because I don't inhabit the world of comics and graphic novels.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 03:28 PM

>>What's up in the cultural zeitgeist with that, do you suppose?

Two wars, the perception of corrupt government, economic uncertainty, global warming, urban decay, the mere fact that someone like G. W Bush could be elected. Kids today have reason for disillusionment and "Zeitgeist". There were a lot of similar things, I thought, during Viet Nam.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 03:43 PM

It is also interesting to note that the character of Batman, and the comic book industry, came of age in the late 1930's - a time of corrupt government, economic uncertainty, urban decay, and the threats of war around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM

This guy has an interesting take on it. Though he doesn't seem to know the whole history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:55 PM

Interesting take, but I think it is a stretch. Joker= 9/11? Hmmm.

I never bought that whole X-Men/gay scenario either. I did see the point, but to me they represent any group that is misunderstood and ostracized.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 05:33 PM

I agree with you Ron. The Xmen had bigotry against mutants. As an allegory you could plug in whatever group you want. If the persecution of any group in our society is represented, it is the group portrayed in the origin story of the Magnito character. Even then, one to one, parallels are as you say, a stretch.

Obviously, as some one who hasn't seen Dark Knight, I'm not qualified to have an opinion about terrorism. ;-) but I think that the guy in the CBC article was saying that the movie was "post" 9/11, and that this Joker was written to play on our fear of terrorism.

In my mind, even that was a bit of a stretch. There were plenty of movies before 9/11 where the villains were terrorists. But I think what this guy is trying to get at, and what intrigued me the most was that this villain, this Joker, in the film was engaging in terror tactics for their own sake and not as part of any wider cause. If that is true, it is interesting and makes him a pure archetype of pure unexcused menace, such as Jaws' shark or Alien's Alien. I'm now, very much looking forward to the moving appear in my Blockbuster queue.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:44 PM

Its the fastest movie ever to reach 300 million.

314 million in 10 days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 11:57 PM

Hmmm. Well, I saw the movie a couple of days ago, and my reaction to it is neutral.

As a Batman movie, it's a very good one...I figure it gets 9 out of 10 strictly as a Batman movie.

As a movie that I personally enjoyed seeing, however, it barely rates a 5 out of 10. I just don't identify with the story, I don't find it moving or believable, I am not attracted to the extremely dark viewpoint of the film, I could not think of the characters as real people or identify with them...despite some quite good acting.

Of the Batman movies I've seen, I only liked one of them, frankly, and that was the one previous to this one ("Batman Begins"?). I actually did enjoy that film as a fine and entertaining piece of adventure fiction.

The Dark Knight was well filmed, well acted, well done for what it was, but it left me cold. It was the sort of movie I was already forgetting as I walked out the door, and I certainly have no impulse to ever watch it again. What for? Nothing there I would want to see again.

I note, however, that the critics are wild over it. Why is this? Is it because Heath Ledger died, thus giving the critics all a chance to wax lyrical about his bravura and necessarily last performance? I think that probably has much to do with it.

Was it an interesting study of the dark and tortured side of the Batman character? Yeah, I guess so. But for some reason I just didn't care. Like I say, this movie left me cold (as have most of the Batman films).

As for 911, there was one thing definitely done to evoke 911 in people's subconcious minds and get them to see the movie: the movie poster showing the Joker's crooked grin as a flaming, jagged, long hole in the side of a skyscraper. That visual image was meant to link in people's minds with their memories of the flaming, jagged holes made by the 2 airplanes that hit the Twin Towers. It seems like a rather manipulative way to advertise a movie to me, but it doesn't surprise me that they would have done that. After all, they want to sell tickets, right?

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:13 AM

It seemed to me that the movie is getting high marks because it was supposed to get high marks. The cinematography was grand, the effects were spectacular. Way the hell to much boring dialogue, and the story line was average, at best. Bale seems to me to be a caricature of the character in this one. Ledger was fine, but I don't get the Oscar talk, other than as a tribute.

It was when I was considering going to see it again to figure out what I missed that I realized that the movie is getting reviews based more on hype and the unfortunate demise of Mr. Ledger than its merits. Maybe a B+, IMO.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:25 AM

That, in a nutshell, is pretty much how I see it, Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:37 AM

There is talk of it overtaking Titanic as number one all time. But I don't see that happening. From what i have read it does not have as much appeal to the female audience.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:34 AM

No kidding. I can't imagine why most females would want to see this movie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:11 AM

Because their boyfriends will take them to see it? And a lot of women - not all - are attracted to bad men.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

I disagree about women and Batman. There is a great appeal for younger women. My daughter has already seen it three times, and she reports most of her friends are going as well. Heath Ledger is a factor, but I think it is more of generational thing.   

The Dark Knight is reflecting contemporary society and morals and all the conflicts.   I still disagree about the Joker and 9/11 - the makeup was nothing more than an artistic vision of trying to turn a comic book character into reality.   The idea of the Joker falling in a vat of acid and having his skin turn white and hair green would not fly with this type of movie. The idea of the scarred mouth and makeup was a way to make the character seem real, I sincrely doubt there was any idea of trying to reflect an image of the twin towers.

This movie has stayed with me, and most people I've talked to are saying the same thing. It challenges the audience while entertaining them - something rare in summer blockbusters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Becca72
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM

As a single female in her mid 30's I really really enjoyed it. I went alone; no one talked me into it. I really didn't know anything of Heath Ledger before this so he wasn't a factor for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM

Well, it's a matter of individual taste, obviously.

I've seen other movies that I loved which got 1/10 of the attention from the critics that this one is getting...and I've bought a copy of them to keep. I wouldn't even bother renting "The Dark Knight" again for two bucks. Not that I hated it. I didn't. It was more or less okay. I just remember walking out of the theatre and thinking..."I'm already forgetting that movie..." This happens when I can't emotionally identify with anything or anyone in a film. I have to be strongly emotionally moved to say I really liked a movie...or I have to find it pretty funny....or quite entertaining...or something like that.

In this case...well...nope.

How in the world did the Joker manage to fill at least one major hospital and two city ferries with enough bombs to completely destroy both of them? How do you do that...and no one notices you doing it????????????? And no one stops you? And no one calls the police or the bomb disposal squad? And you get away with it? Riiiiiiiiight....

Yeah, I know, it's just a comic book story. It's a fantasy. But, really, did the guy have magical powers or something? He would have had to, to be able to set up things like that. He would have to just snap his fingers and "POOF!"...hundreds of bombs are set, wired, and detonators placed in any desirable location in the city, ready to go at the touch of a switch held in his hand.

Man, I bet Osama Bin Laden wishes he could do stuff like that. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

>>He would have had to, to be able to set up things like that. He would have to just snap his fingers and "POOF!"...hundreds of bombs are set, wired, and detonators placed in any desirable location in the city, ready to go at the touch of a switch held in his hand.

Man, I bet Osama Bin Laden wishes he could do stuff like that. ;-)>>

Isn't that what a lot of folks are claiming happened at the WTC, with George Bush as the Joker I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:34 PM

"Man, I bet Osama Bin Laden wishes he could do stuff like that. ;-) "


ooo.. satire!!!!   :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:42 PM

Bush v Batman

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:19 PM

"Isn't that what a lot of folks are claiming happened at the WTC, with George Bush as the Joker I mean."

Exactly, Jack. Only if so, it certainly wasn't done in one day. And it doesn't have to have been George Bush who was in command. It was probably done well in advance...like about 3 weeks in advance...by large crews of well-trained technical personnel, dressed in perfectly normal looking construction equipment, and they did it on a large number of vacant floors in those buildings, and they did much of the work afterhours, and there are numerous witnesses who testified anyway to an unusual amount of unknown construction activity which they could hear happening on those vacant floors...floors which the public had no access to. You could not exit the elevators onto those floors. Furthermore there was a lot of strange dust that accumulated in the lobbies in the last weeks prior to 911. It was remarked on, but no one knew what was causing it. It was supposed, though, that it must have to do with the noisy, but unseen construction activities on some of those vacant floors.

Now, it didn't have to be George Bush who planned that. It simply had to be someone...some group of people...with the necessary high-level connections and the money to do it.

Someone far better equipped, in other words, than the Joker.

It would have taken time to do it. It would have taken very careful planning. It would probably have been an operation where very few of the little people taking part in it knew exactly what the hell was going on...but they simply did what they were told to do. That's how a chain of command usually works. The cogs in the machine do what they are told to do...they don't have to know what the purpose of it is, and they often have no idea what the real purpose of it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

dressed in perfectly normal construction equipment?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:49 PM

Oh, my....well equipped!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:59 PM

"That's how a chain of command usually works. The cogs in the machine do what they are told to do...they don't have to know what the purpose of it is, and they often have no idea what the real purpose of it is. "

But, as we saw in the Dark Knight, the plan always has a flaw and is discovered before the major damage is done - and they catch the criminal!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:57 PM

We saw The Dark Knight last night, partly just to see what all the hoopla was about. The theater was full in the second week of release.

I thought Ledger's Joker was great. A super hero movie needs a really scary, threatening villain to make me suspend belief and get into the story; otherwise I just sit there in the dark and think, "Hey, I'm sitting here in the dark watching a story about a billionaire running around at night in a rubber bat suit and beating up guys. What's the deal with that?" Ledger's psychotic Joker was plenty scary enough pull me into the story. I especially liked that they left him a bit enigmatic instead of creating an elaborate backstory.
- Phil

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 12:16 AM

" the plan always has a flaw and is discovered before the major damage is done - and they catch the criminal!"

Yes. That's what happens in the movies, Ron. Alas, real life is neither so neatly arranged nor so kind.

Was John Kennedy saved at the last moment? Was Bobby? Was Martin Luther King? Was Lincoln? Was the Maine? Was the Hindenburg? Was the Reichstag? Were the Twin Towers?

Nope. Major (in fact total) damage was done in all cases.

Plans can have many flaws and still succeed.

Example: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

flaw number 1: The American aircraft carriers were safely out at sea when the Japanese airstrikes came in.

flaw number 2: The Japanese sank a bunch of old American battleships...ships which proved to be of relatively little use in the coming war.

flaw number 3: They neglected to destroy the fuel tanks and naval repair facilities at Pearl. If they had done that, instead of sinking some old battleships, then the US fleet would have had to rebase itself in distant California rather than in Hawaii, and it would have made a huge difference to the Japanese logistical advantage.

flaw number 4: The Japanese attack was seen coming in on American radar. Fortunately for the Japanese, the radar report was misunderstood and no alert was sounded.

flaw number 5: The Japanese could have sent in a third attack wave and smashed up the oil tanks and repair facilities anyway. They didn't.

flaw number 6: It was not a smart move pschologically to hit Pearl Harbor, because it infuriated the American population, thus making America's will to fight like a will of iron.

So there you had a whole bunch of flaws in a plan. Nonetheless, the Pearl Harbor attack plan basically succeeded in its tactical objectives. It achieved surprise and great damage at a small material cost. It was a major tactical victory for the Japanese...but a Pyrrich one in the long run.

All of which has nothing to do with Batman movies...but I do enjoy history. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM

LH - it was a movie, there are flaws in logic that need to be suspended.   No human being could fly from rooftops, the tricked out car could not operate the way it was portrayed, the odds of Batman being able to keep his identity a secret are slim, the Joker would probably have been plugged before it ever came to that point. Disbelief needs to be suspended to get to the real messages. You are right though, the conspiracies you talk about have nothing to do with Batman movies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Oh, I'm prepared to do a certain amount of suspension of disbelief, Ron, for sure, when it comes to a Batman movie or any other such movie. I just thought they took it a bit far with the hospital blowing up scene, but they have to please their audiences, of course, and audiences like really BIG explosions, not half measures. Audiences expect total absolute mayhem, and the movie industry keeps raising the bar on that.

Can you imagine the living a person can make doing explosion effects for the movie industry? Blowing things up real good?   ;-) Man, it's just what every ten-year-old boy dreams of doing as a career!

KA-BLOOOOEYYY!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM

You are right - the hospital scene was a bit far-fetched, and the boat as well. It works in the pages of comic books, and film to some extent, but when you put reason to it - it won't work.   Of course, 99% of the films being released would fit that catagory!

By the way, they actually blew up a building for that scene - it was not CGI.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:43 PM

Is that right? Wow. I thought it looked pretty damn convincing.

It's just the sort of job Calvin (of Calvin & Hobbes) would want to have when he grew up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Dark Knight
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

100