BS: Glasgow earthquake!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

Thanks, McGrath, for treating my question seriously, and civally.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:14 PM

Not as simple as that, Doug. The Labour Party has moved to the right, and lost support in the process. The Tories have moved leftwards, at least in rhetoric) which is all that matters for an opposition party can, so that there's nothing to choose between the two, and that has helped them gain credibility. The Scot Nats are well to the left of either, so this Glasgow election is in no way a move to the right.

And all of them, Labour, Tories or Scot Nats, are what you would be likely to denounce as far left liberals if they were in the States. (Which would also, of course, be true of Merkel and Sarkozy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

How do you factor Scottish independence into that McGrath

Obviously another reason to vote SNP. And I'd vote for independence in a referendum, if I lived in Scotland - but I doubt if all their voters would. Though if the Tories win the next Westminster Election that will obviously help the SNP when it comes to the referendum.

And all this should make it crystal clear that sticking to the present electoral system for Westminser makes no kind of sense for Labour. There's probably a potential longterm natural anti-Tory majority in the country (even with Scotland gone), but that was true throughout the Thatcher years, and it didn't stop her carving society into pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

Or what? You'll send a gunboat?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:01 PM

How far would you suggest?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Many of us in the US believe that with the election of Sarkozy in France and Merkel in Germany, both countries have turned to the right a bit. Certainly relations between the Bush administration and the leaders of both countries are much better than they were with the previous left-wing leaders.

Any chance Great Britain may be turning a bit more right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:03 AM

Largely agreed

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

All of this simply goes to to show the dire state of UK politics.

All the main parties lack a coherent ideology that goes beyond unregulated capitalism and this is why modern politics has lost the trust of most people. Turning your electorate into consumers might have seemed like a good idea when taking your inspiration from Thatcher's brutal monetarist policies, but this bid to attract the middle classes into the New Labour fold has backfired badly.

What Glasgow East has demonstrated is Labour have gone so far down the road of Thatcherite free market economics they have effectively alienated their core voters - the less well off who still believe in socialist policies they thought they were getting when electing Labour in 1997.

This along with the rush to war at side of a right-wing American Neocon puppet and the subsequent betrayal of the trust of the UK electorate when the entire debacle was found to be based on a pack of half-truths and lies has damaged Labour so much they will probably loose the next election to one of the most policy-deficient Tory parties ever seen (in fact, until Thatcher dies this is likely to remain the state of the party as they cannot seem to escape her not inconsiderable shadow).


"People have realised that Labour no longer speaks for the under-priviliged and that they are even worse than the Conservatives when in power"

I doubt if the men of Clydeside, Steelos, Bilston Glen or the Yorkshire coalfields would agree with this Ake. The minimum wage itself was no mean feat to introduce, and provides some protection for those in the lowest paid jobs. They have introduced devolved government in Wales and Scotland and were instrumental in facilitating the stopping of the war in the North of Ireland (remember Mo Mowlem visiting the Maze to persuade the hard-line Loyalists to sign up to the peace process - a Tory would never have had the courage to do that).

We need a return to the politics of principle, and the rebuilding of ideologies that can take us forward as a society, for the benefit of all. What a shame Tony Benn has retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:02 AM

Cameron, of course, the product of generations of power an exploitation wants to make old Etonians richer than the rest of us for ever, and for the rest of us to do as we are ordered by our betters. At present he is, as a politician, lying in order to get elected.

Blair was simply a carpetbagger.

Brown in one sense is a prisoner of the machine. He may have some socialist instincts but has become boxed in to the orthodoxy of greed amongs voters.

The real problem here is whether there is a greater chance of social justice under the New Labour party or whether like chickens at Christmas we want to put the Etonians back in charge of the slaughterhouse.

What a shame Bob Marshall-Andrews is retiring.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:57 AM

Al...Cameron stands for exactly what Blair/ Brown stand for.

The continuation of a social/economic system which makes the rich, richer and the poor, poorer.
Some of them might not (deep in their hearts), want it to be that way, but they KNOW (deep in their hearts), that it IS that way!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

'a minimum wage that might just keep us from starving, but none of the political parties would allow us to starve to death!....'

well that's wrong they both would, and have done.

however theres a certain sang froid about the social engineering done by the radical right in my lifetime - which ought to send shivers down the spine of anybody not super rich.

And what exactly does Cameron stand for? Like Thatcher, you won't think to ask til its too late.

I was talking to an old friend and confirmed tory yesterday. He said he knows Cameron will win the next election. He says women vote for the best looking guys - they voted for Blair, they'll vote for Cameron.

Just thought I'd let you know the latest tory thinking. Boy are they feeling confident!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:28 AM

How do you factor Scottish independence into that McGrath?

Independence within five years seems inevitable and where would that position an English/Welsh Labour party?

No, political slight of hand can't fix this one, everyone I speak to (and this is borne out by election results), just want Labour out of power. Most feel used and ashamed of what was done by Blair and his cabinet.
"The war" is still the main reason that people want them gone, but there are all the other disgraces...."Cash for honours"..."Cheriegate"
"Presidential politics", "Sleaze on a vast scale" (worse than the last Tory govt, but more cleverly carried out)"
"Hypocrisy" (Abbott, Jowell and many others)
People have realised that Labour no longer speaks for the under-priviliged and that they are even worse than the Conservatives when in power........(Oh they give a little....a minimum wage that might just keep us from starving, but none of the political parties would allow us to starve to death!....That would be bad PR), but the damage they have done to the cause of "Socialism" is very great.
Hypocrisy has always been the "Achilles heel" of the Left and the New Labour Project has made that hypocrisy apparent to everyone.
Who would have thought that a Labour MP of thirty years standing could be banished from the party for daring to speak against war.

I hope that here in Scotland, we can make a new begining....not Scotland.com or Scotland Ltd, but real freedom for our people that others may wish to follow. Time will tell.

As for you Southerners, I'm afraid all you have left is the power of prayer.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:53 PM

The Glaswegians voted for the most left-wing candidate who stood a chance of winning, naturally enough. Not much comfort for the Tories in this result.

The obvious card for Labour to play in this situation is to bring in electoral reform with a single transferable vote. That's the only way to bring out the voters who can't see much significant difference between New Labour and New Tory, and could give a good chance of a hung parliament with a centre left majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

As "akenaton" stated initially, the East End of Glasgow has been returning Labour politicians since the days of Maxton, Wheatley and Shinwell - and is still "one of the most deprived areas in Britain", although there have been several Labour administrations in the last century, and, with regard to local/Council politics, a virtual Labour monopoly. Not exactly a strong reason for continuing to vote for Labour, or New Labour as it's been called in a rebranding exercise. One of the best leaflets of the campaign showed a photograph of Gordon Brown with another politician he greatly admires; it was issued by the Scottish National Party, and of course the other politician was Thatcher. One of the most significant things Brown ever said was an impromptu reply to some journalist who, in the early days of the current "war against terrorism", when Brown was Chancellor, asked how much the war would cost. Instantly, Brown replied, "as much as it takes"; perhaps the video clip is still available. Had anyone asked how much would be spent on health care, education, &c., it wouldn't be long before familiar phrases about "financial prudence" and "prioritization of finite resources" were trotted out; but you would wait long enough before any politician would say "as much as it takes". That's the calibre of a person who makes it to a top position. Hope I live to see Scotland regain the kind of pride and self-respect that comes of the kind of independence every other nation has as an unquestioned right; here, you have to argue for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:35 AM

When Mrs Thatcher was asked recently what her greatest triumph was, she replied "New Labour"
                Bye bye Nanny state.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

Congratulations to the SNP, every kick that can be delivered to Gordon of Cartoon's shambolic Nu-Labour Government, the better.

"Glasgow Earthquake" Akenaton announces, as does MSM in the UK, rather over-eggs the situation. What was seen in Glasgow was a mid term By-Election protest vote that signifies very little.

The SNP will still not rush to any referendum on independence because they know exactly what the result would be.

Here is the result in full:

John Mason, SNP - 11,277
Margaret Curran, Labour - 10,912
Davena Rankin, Conservative - 1,639
Ian Robertson, Lib Dem - 915
Frances Curran, Scottish Socialist Party - 555
Tricia McLeish, Solidarity - 512
Dr Eileen Duke, Scottish Greens - 232
Chris Creighton, Independent - 67
Hamish Howitt, Freedom 4 Choice - 65
Turnout 42.25%

SNP share of the vote = 43.08%

If turnout was only 42.25% at 26,174 then 61,950 were elligible to vote. So out of the voters in the constituency the SNP support amounts to 18.2% of the electorate. Voter turn out 42.25% which means 57.75% of the electorate couldn't even be bothered to vote - Hardly a ringing endorsement - certainly no "Eartquake".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

"But....for the more politically sensitive among us, the tremors were felt before the start of the Iraq War, when people first began to realise what the Labour Party had become."

Amen - it was the great deception of 1997 and I would say most of us were taken in by it.

When it became clear that Socialist principles had been abandoned and we were left with just another form of Thatcherism it was most depressing. That said, we did get the minimum wage and some degree of social reform, but big business still drives so much policy making that should be aimed at making peoples lives better.

I really hope you're right Ake - we need some proper left of centre politicians back in the mainstream to balance the folly of unregulated capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:54 AM

Sorry Al...They've gone...Finished....Kaputt...They are an ex-Party.

I think the Party will disintegrate....Maybe re-form as a "left of centre outfit.   No matter, the earthquake is about to move South.
The old Parties ..even the Tories have had their day.

Exciting Times Eh!!

Keep well my friend.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

You may be right. But look at Thatch, who never won a by election but kept coming back. mainly due to the Kinnock/Foot factor, it has to be said.

I hope its not the end of Labour, cos that means a new start for the tories and the Ulster Unionists.

Subject: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:38 AM

Another chapter in the sad tale of "Tony Blair's Legacy" unfolds as predicted on Mudcat.

Scottish Nationalists have taken one of the "safest" Labour seats in the country.
Glasgow East a deprived area, with huge numbers of long term unemployed, health issues on a massive scale, life expectancy of 62 and wholesale dependency on benefits, has turned against the Labour Party for the first time in my memory.

The change has been described as a political earthquake which has moved off the Richter Scale.

But....for the more politically sensitive among us, the tremors were felt before the start of the Iraq War, when people first began to realise what the Labour Party had become.
The shocks became stronger as Blair was forced to leave office and electorate's disgust with the whole corrupt and hypocritical Labour machine became apparent.

Over a year ago Mr Blair toured the world in search of a "Legacy".
I said then that his "legacy" would be as "The man who caused the break up of the UK". This now seems to behappening, with the SNP poised to make massive gains in the next election.

It would be easy to feel sorry for Prime Minister Brown, who is reaping what has been sown by Blair, but never forget Brown was as much a part of the "New Labour Project" as Blair, and supported him in his Iraqi adventure.

When the electorate turn against a government, that government is finished....this has happened to Labour, but weep no tears for them, they have been the architects of their own misfortunes