BS: Glasgow earthquake!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

My My Teribus didn't think you would have the cheek to show your face back on this thread after the heap of shite you aimed at Shimrod.

Who do you think you are? Shimrod was giving a personal opinion of a working environment that many of us recognise. The sickening hierarchial environment that strips work of pleasure and job satisfaction.
However let us move on...You lead us to believe that you have taken up residence in Scotland, if this is so, even wearing your customary blinkers, you cannot have missed seeing the change in Scottish politics....People actually talk about politics these days....There is a buzz everywhere...people are excited...something is happening at last.

After years of being told by UK politicians that we Scots were too stupid to look after our own affairs, Alex Salmond has shown that a Scottish government is more than a match for a United Kingdom one.
The last bye-election was no protest vote, it was made by Salmond into a test of strength between Westminster and Hollyrood and guess who came out on top? In a seat which has been solidly Labour for years.
Mid term protest vote my arse! apathy is built into the UK electoral
system, nobody really believes that they are represented anymore...except bankers and retired Naval pen pushers!!

Predictions? Oh yes I suppose you forgot about that little skirmish over in Iraq that the Americans were going to tidy up in months.

Who predicted that it would be a disaster for Iraq and for Blairs Labour Party? While you patted youself on the back over "Shock and Awe".

A few posts ago you described me as a "Wee Heilan anarchist without a positive thought or idea in my head, what a laugh!! Your last two posts on this thread are the biggest load of negativity that I've ever read....and negativity about your adopted country at that.

Best plan for you would be tae pack up yer Union Jack pygamas in yer auld kitbag and get tae fuck back ower the border.
The new Scotland will have no need for "military men" retired or otherwise
I'll leave you with the words of Hamish Henderson tae ponder, he for one, would have been proud of his countrymen when they put war behind them for ever!

"Nae mair will our bonnie callants
Merch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw
Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan
Mourn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw
Broken faimlies in lands we've hairriet
Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair
Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet
Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

"The SNP did achieve a swing of almost 25% to overturn a 13000 majority; and that in a seat which had been solidly Labour for half a century." - Akenaton

That was entirely down to the fact that 57.75% of the electorate of the Glasgow East Constituency could be bothered to lift themselves from their apathetic "couldnae-gie-a-fuck" arses to vote.

Mid term protest vote nothing more nothing less.

As for Akenaton's predictions, off hand I can't think of one that he's got right. Should have consulted Salmond about Scotland being independent within 5 years. It will come as news to him he isn't prepared to put it before the country by way of a referendum for another 10 years. If a referendum was held on Independence for Scotland tomorrow the result would be a resounding NO. If, however, that referendum were to include the people of England, Scotland would be independent by the end of the month.

Akenaton wishes to cut production of hydrocarbons at a time when the price for that resource is at a high, well what country needs income from natural resources? Gives a good indication though of how well his head is screwed on. He forgets what the people of Shetland and Orkney said about "Scotland's Oil" back in 1975 - They told the SNP that if Scotland voted for Independence they would stay with Westminster. Now take away "Orkney & Shetlands Oil" and Scotland don't have that much to speak of. As a Shetlander I'd take this Independence thing a couple of stages further. If Scotland votes for Independence then we vote to seperate from Scotland and revert to direct rule from Norway, taking with us our natural resources. The Norwegians would welcome the return and not being in the EU, the Orkneys and Shetlands would get back their fishing industries and reap the benefits of becoming part of one of the richest countries in the world.

Akenaton wants to sell the electorate of Scotland on universal reduction of their standard of living - Good luck to him with that.

Akenaton also has not mentioned that the population of Scotland would have to pay more in tax in order to live in an independent Scotland with a reduced standard of living.

Sounds like most of what he spouts, arrant drivel, emotive lefty nonsense without a whit of commonsense, logic or reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:57 PM

>>"It's a pity there can't be an English equivalent of the SNP and Plaid Cymru - nationalist without being racist, and well to the left of the present Labour Party"<<

You have to admit that when a huge ruling majority talks about being oppressed it rings a bit hollow. Now if Yorkshire had a separatist party they'd be on to something.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

In this context "English nationalism" means being in favour of an end to the Union with Scotland (and Wales, if that's what the Welsh want).

Nothing in the least racist about that - after all that's what Scots in favour of independence want, and they can come in all colours and from all kinds of ancestral homelands. I understand you don't have to wear a kilt and have a Caledonian pedigree stretching back yonks to support the SNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

A little thread drift.

I see "Mad Milliband" is preparing to chalenge Brown for the leadership. Does he remind you of anyone?

You think the Party is right wing now, just wait till these guys take control!
Your all welcome to come to Scotland, but you'll need tae grow yer ain tatties an keep a few hens!...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

"It's a pity there can't be an English equivalent of the SNP and Plaid Cymru - nationalist without being racist, and well to the left of the present Labour Party"

There's way too much anti-English feeling for this to ever happen. Every time the idea is floated there are cries of 'racist' and 'right-wing', and you'll never get away from that. I don't think you could express English nationalism, in fact I can't see how you could (think back to the reaction of Roots by Show of Hands).

Too much baggage from the past.

Unless . . .

We could shrug off the Norman Yoke and declare a republic and start again - from the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Jack's right about the oil Stigweard, but we can soon be in a position to export energy from Hydro Electricity and offshore wind farms.

Personally I would like to see the new Scotland concentrate on using and producing LESS energy and promotion of energy saving in all facets of life.
This would probably lead to a "lowering" of material living standards in the short term, so persuading the politicians to take this course oif action woul also be difficult.

Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Gulliver
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Practically every party in the country, with the possible exception of the BNP, is to the left of the present Labout Party!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

It's a pity there can't be an English equivalent of the SNP and Plaid Cymru - nationalist without being racist, and well to the left of the present Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:08 PM

>>An independent Scotland could benefit from the hydrocarbons still under the North Sea.

Good luck with getting that without a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

An independent Scotland could benefit from the hydrocarbons still under the North Sea.

Still, I'm always puzzled by anyone's desire to maintain the Union, so I applaud the SNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

I dunno. You gotta face it, your country was very big on witch burning, closing the pubs at ten pm, tawse weilding teachers, punishing fornicators, football hooliganism and razor weilding gangsters at one time - not mention supporting dodgy Stewart monarchs, and the divine right of kings. And Lulu is a tory.

Amidst all that fine socialism - there is a streak of illiberality. You don't notice it so much, cos you're more spread out than we are. But I think the struggle for the soul of Scotland may be conducted with all the good grace of a Billy Bremner tackle.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:55 AM

Thanks Jack....The SNP did achieve a swing of almost 25% to overturn a 13000 majority; and that in a seat which had been solidly Labour for half a century.

Don't listen to Teribus's shite...he's only whistling in the dark.
They say he wears "Union Jack" pyjamas.

Al...who exactly would we want to practice "limb lopping" against?

I don't envisage a Pol Pot style of revolution and there are more Muslims here than Wee Free's......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:12 AM

I have nothing against it at all. I just don't see one closely lost election as a sign that it is impending.

Certainly with the EU and the recent success of Ireland its not as risky an economic proposition as it used to be.

Best of luck to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:12 AM

Just as a matter of interest to me, what do you and Jack have against the idea of Scottish Independence?

Scotland is quite different from Quebec historically.
We are an ancient nation in our own right.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:06 AM

Al..... I hate boasting, but my predictions have a habit of coming true..:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:00 PM

akenaton

I may be wrong. I am not a Scott. But I know a number of Quebecers who talked then as you do now. Some still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:41 PM

'There will be a battle for the "soul" of the new Scotland but hopefully we will follow an egalitarian agenda and hammer another nail in the coffin of Global Capitalism..Ake '

i think Khomeini used that line with some success. it is bollocks though, isn't it?

We all like the goodies that capitalism showers on us if we're lucky enough to live in the right countries.

either way make sure the tassells on your sporan don't inflame the deeply hidden passions of John Knox's true inheritors.

Khomeini went from liberalism to handchopping in a period of about a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Gulliver
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:30 PM

I think I can empathize with Shimrod. I worked for years in Germany for a large multi-national and due to changes in markets, etc., saw many clever men who had worked their butts off to get their qualifications and move into management/supervisory positions being turned into robots and pen-pushers. At least in our company they were well paid, but boy, were they frustrated!

On client visits to engineering companies I often saw similar cases, men and women doing "busy-work" until they reached retirement age, but without having the advantage of the good pay that we had. The amount of secret drinking that went on on the job was unbelievable! My girl-friend's father drank himself to death just after retirement (having started drinking at work many years before).

I was made redundant two years ago and am happily working part-time and doing a lot of voluntary work, also playing a bit of music (something I rarely had time for before).

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM

Jack my friend you are wrong!
Although there is a national disgust with New Labour, especially Blair and his cronies, there is also a political movement at work in Scotland and I am absolutely certain that we will achieve independence from the UK in under five years.

We would have become an Independent nation back in the 1970's had the Scots not put their faith in the Labour Party to defeat the Conservatives....Instead, the Labour Party joined the Conservatives and fucked the Scots.

We will never make that mistake again.
Maybe you have to be a Scot and live here, but I know something is happening in Scotland, coupled with a new sense of self- belief, that I hope will be a template for smaller countries all over the world.
There will be a battle for the "soul" of the new Scotland but hopefully we will follow an egalitarian agenda and hammer another nail in the coffin of Global Capitalism..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

"It took him 38 years to find out he disliked his job - that would amount to a damn slow learning curve by anyone's standards."

I didn't say that I disliked my job, Teribus. In fact I loved it and was bloody good at it (even though I say so myself). What I hated, and came to loathe, was the god-awful 'management culture' that crept in,like some poisonous miasma, to pervade my workplace. I also came to despise the grubby, back-stabbing, talentless careerists who always seemed to float to the top like the proverbial scum. My actual job, the one described in my 'job description' was gradually displaced by 'targets', form filling, writing bollocks on flip-charts, arm-waving, 'Health & Safety' (aka: a perfect excuse for the talentless to boss others around) and meaningless 'hoop-jumping'. THESE things were a waste of my life!

I came to notice that my infrequent trips abroad - to Eastern Europe and South East Asia - came closer to being more fulfilling because people in those places had not yet been infected with the virus of 'managerialism' (give them time!). And don't even get me started on the vile, super-hypocritical dogma of 'team-working'!

Actually, I am now involved in voluntary work - and very satisfying it is too! Now I'm experiencing REAL teamwork - not the spurious, dogmatic kind forced down our throats in my previous paid employment.

I meet many fine people in the course of this work - some paid and some, like me, unpaid. In private the paid ones often complain to me about the same sorts of bullshit that I had to endure not so long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM

Well said Shimrod.

Teribus - go play squash. You probably drive the steamroller.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

akenaton,

It seems to me that the Scottish Nationalists have won a protest vote against the ruling party. Their victory probably has more to do with dissatisfaction with the price of gas and the cost of optional war than it does with scottish independence.

Canada has had the Bloc in Quebec for many years now, though they still talk of independence, their political niche is to be regional advocates. In a parliamentary system, the squeekiest wheeled do get oiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

Actually I was referring to Teribus's personal attack on Shimrod, when he (or she) sounded off against things in general in a non-personalised way.

With 1000+ plus posts, above and below the lines, Shimrod may sign in as a GUEST but surely counts as a member. And the thumbs down on personal attacks surely applies to making such attacks on anyone who comes to the Mudcat.

It's quite possible to express disagreement and argue forcefully without getting into that kind of stuff - as you demonstrate, Doug. Arguing doesn't have to mean quarrelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:38 AM

Hmm, it appears a post of mine has disappeared - how unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:53 PM

McGrath: if you are referring to Guest Shimrod's attack on Teribus, it would appear that Shimrod is not a member.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:19 PM

Aren't personal attacks on other members supposed to be disallowed in this place?

Not that anyone should need that kind of rule to stop them going in for such attacks. More especially when they have not even got the excuse that they were the target of a personal attack. A shame. because it messes up discussions that deserve to be treated better, and often completely derails them, or gets threads closed down by the Mudcat's fire marshalls.
..........................

Any time I meet a former colleague I can generally tell whether they are still working or if they have retired by the expression on their faces. If they look shifty and a bit at odds with the world they probably haven't retired yet. If they look relaxed and cheerful they probably have. (And I'm talking about people who are or were doing a reasonably interesting job and on the whole liking it well enough.)

There are exceptions. People for whom the end of their employment feels like the end of their life - the fate which we are constantly told lies in wait for us, during our working years. But thank God, it's not true for most of us - in fact that story is essentially a con that serves to keep us under control.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:13 PM

well yes other people are judgemental, but you have heard it said, an eye or an eye, a tooth for a tooth. but I say to thee, if another man offends thee turn the other cheek...

You have to be nicer than the other guy - otherwise the situation stays the same.

Its a goodie. makes you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

"you know what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged. - WLD

"So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts - money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards! ........ May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!" - Guest Shimrod.

Nothing judgemental about that little outburst at all then, eh Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Some people get stuck in situations thay have no control over - family responsibilities and the like.

You do the best you can with your life. No one intentionally screws up everything. even the village drunk thinks its the best accomodation of the facts of his life that he can manage.

you know what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged.

that's the toughest commandment in my book Teribus, but its a goodie! makes you think!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:58 PM

Shimrod ....It was a fine post containing all the frustration that most of us feel over so many wasted years.
Very few of us live our lives any longer. we are in hock up to our necks, while Capitalism constructs ever more efficient ways of exchanging our lives on earth, for worthless crap.

Don't worry about Teribus, the insulated soundproof box that he lives in, ensures that he feels no pain.

I have read that in lower life forms, the brain is not sufficiently developed to feel pain......or empathy.

Hope you have any happy years to compensate for the shit...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM

WLD - Exactly as I ended my last post - That well worn "socialist" mantra of "the left" - It's everybody else's fault except my own, somebody else should have done something about it.

As for Guest Shimrod, if he was stupid enough to vent here in a public forum as he did then he should expect to receive comments both supporting and condemning whatever he says - respect does not enter into it, especially in a post that calls down ill on those whose only apparent crime is to have done their jobs and attracted the venom of someone who does not have the guts to state the case against them.

It took him 38 years to find out he disliked his job - that would amount to a damn slow learning curve by anyone's standards.

No-one is owed a life, if a person adjudges things to be wrong with their lives it is up to them to change things. But there again asking a "socialist" to adopt any measure of personal responsibility is a complete and utter anathema and an utterly pointless exercise - Somebody else has to do it, with "Government money" of course.

"And while this was going on sytematic ways of doing things, knowledge, skills and craftmanship were gradually phased out and replaced by brute-force-and-ignorance, bullshit and lots and lots of arm-waving. No wonder the world economy is going down the tubes!" - Guest Shimrod - ill-informed "Luddite" Crap.

As for me Guest Shimrod, rest assured that I have absolutely no "paranoid fantasies about you" at all. And for the record, I do not so much "support the status quo" as tilt at the usual ill-constructed, illogical, left-wing, lies, half-truths, misrepresentations and myths that get trotted out time after time for the blind acceptance of fools such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Shimrod's entitled to express the way he feels.

If on sober reflection, that's how he feels about his working life, you should respect that.

yes theres always people have harder lives than you have - it doesn't relieve of responsibility those people who are always sodding up other peoples lives. And we're at a time of our lives when you should understand we all feel a little bitterness for what might have been and indeed what should have been.

show a bit of compassion, and stop taking cheap shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM

For a start, Teribus I don't have to defend myself against people like you - f**k you and your scorn!

Actually, if you must know, my comments were a reflection on the amount of time I spent in pointless meetings listening to drivel spouted by egotistical, know-nothing idiots. and the amount of time I spent writing other pointless drivel on flip-charts in 'brain-storming' sessions, and other stupid 'management' exercises, which never produced anything remotely worthwhile.

Add to that the equally endless hours spent trying to second guess the intentions of the super-annuated ego-maniacs at the top and the subsequent office politics. "Oh, STEVE farted in the meeting this morning - this must mean he he wants us to stand on our heads and juggle coconuts with our feet - possibly ... ???"

And while this was going on sytematic ways of doing things, knowledge, skills and craftmanship were gradually phased out and replaced by brute-force-and-ignorance, bullshit and lots and lots of arm-waving. No wonder the world economy is going down the tubes!

Anyway, changing the subject, who exactly are you, Teribus? I get these paranoid fantasies about you being some sort of 'spook' who is paid to go on to websites and ridicule anything vaguely subversive. You only ever seem to support the status-quo. If I'm even vaguely right, I have the satisfaction of knowing that your life working life is an even bigger waste of time than mine was.

Oh and by the way, since I became involuntarily 'work-free' I have begun to live again - I insist - working was a waste of my time and everyone else's (38 years of my life, Teribus, you a**hole!). And at least I don't have to take any crap from people like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM

Teribus: Guest Shimrod's post is an excellent example of liberal compassion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

Hey Guest Shimrod, don't feel as though you have to hold back, I mean tell it like you think it is.

I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap.

"So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts" - I take it that you were in paid employment or are you just talking about what you used to throw over the bar each week?

"money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards!" - Well as only you know who you are talking about we can put this down as a highly subjective personal opinion.

"I realise now that so much of my 'life' as a 'wage-slave' was a complete waste of time." - I take it then that you could have left and done something else you thought was more rewarding at any time.

"May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!" - So much for the milk of human kindness, they should suffer such ill-will for doing being guilty of doing what exactly? Employing you? Paying you? Heaven forbid for making a profit?

Grow up, there are many, many more in the world who have suffered far harsher fates who bear them with one thousand times the fortitude displayed by the likes of you - I take it Guest Shimrod that you are a "socialist" judging by that well worn mantra - It's everybody else's fault except my own, somebody else should have done something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:21 PM

"Who was it said "Work makes us free"?

Work enslaves us and diminishes our quality of life."

Oh, Akenaton, you never spoke a truer word!! Today is my 60th birthday and, because I got thrown on the scrapheap at 57, I've been able to doss about taking photographs and soaking up the sunshine. So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts - money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards! I realise now that so much of my 'life' as a 'wage-slave' was a complete waste of time. May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

In that case, Doug, I misread you and will stand back a little more.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Ake - I totally agree with you. What I was trying to say in my slightly ham-fisted way was we need to return to a politics where ideals come before greed.

My worry is we are becoming too like the Americans in our approach: Here 'democracy' means 'capitalism' - the words are virtually interchangeable and to my mind is devaluing the very concept of democracy as a political system. From the posts here we are all aware of the ties between big business and our respective governments; other posts have discussed the shadowy Bilderberg Group, where discussion take place far from the prying eyes of the electorate.

This is why I think the UK should have closer ties with Europe. Although we are often at odds with our continental neighbours we also have far more in common with them than we realise, and as many European countries have made the mistakes of Empire have a unique perspective on the consequences of a belligerent approach to foreign policy and subsequently are far more tolerant societies. The politics of most European countries are totally secular, and with the rise of the religious right in American politics as a counter to the perceived radicalisation if Islam this middle way approach (although I hate to use a term coined by Blair) is needed if we are to maintain a balanced and considered response to the problems facing the world.

My worry is we have already succumbed to the lie of consumerism; at some point in the last decade we crossed the rubicon that means we are all to clingy to our material possessions and home comforts, which makes us sheep-like in our acceptance of the ever-increasing threats on our liberty from our own governments, and that is a truly frightening prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

There is often an unexamined assumption when people are talking about politics in different countries, along the lines that there's a neat political spectrum you can apply everywhere, a bit like an exchange rate converter for different currencies. But often that just isn't true. The popular concerns which drive and shape politics are just too different.

The very same policies that are seen as defining marks of being on the right or the left will typically be mixed up in a totally different way. What's seen as right wing in one place will be seen as left wing in another, and parties and regimes will have their own peculiar mix of the two.

Moreover the significant differences often aren't on the left-right spectrum at all, but in a completely independent authoritarian-libertarian spectrum - which graphically would need to be plotted at right angles.

And on top of that, of course, there are differences in the way words are used. Most especially for a word like "liberal" which in some places can be used by parties at virtually any point on either of those spectra.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:08 PM

My original post was not intended to convey that all countries should emulate the U.S. economic policies, though in America it has, by an large been successful and affords the majority a comfortable life. In no way did I intend to insult anyone or convey a sense of superiority. I wrote the post only to learn more about the political system in the British Isles. My experience on the Mudcat has led me to believe that the definition of liberal and conservative might differ in the U. S. from the definition in other parts of the world.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM

I was in Northern Ireland on holiday and I'm glad that the SNP won, because it's goodbye the unionists parties, and hopefully goodbye to Westminster rule, Home rule for England.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

I am Working Class and proud of it ! I ALWAYS voted Labour until 1997 , when ALL mention of Socialism was removed from the New Labour Manifesto . Since then , I have voted in EVERY election in my local Constituency and have NEVER Voted for the Labour candidate . (OR The Conservative , if it matters)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:00 AM

I don't think a return to the politics of principle (which has been a pretty rare thing) is incompatible with ake's otherwise excellent post above.

DougR, most of us in Europe find the US postulation of right wing capitalist politics as some sort of norm or having some sort of desirability, and the associated preening that the US is the policeman of the world, that its enslavement of other cultures under its economic colonialism is some sort of liberation deeply, deeply offensive: just as offensive as the insistence by Christian missionaries that they were "saving" those they railroaded into subjugation.

We do believe that socialism is, that sharing is, morally superior to the beggar my neighbour beliefs apparently so prevalent in the USA.

It seemed to me, and it I expect seems to many of us, that you were taking a cheap shot about the "superiority" of the US norm over all others. It would I feel be consistent with your general political stance here, would it not?

I don't often quote the bible, but surely as ye sow so shall ye reap.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:40 AM

Stig...I don't often disagree with you, but we don't need a return to anything.

Who was it said "Work makes us free"?

Work enslaves us and diminishes our quality of life.

Capitalism has led us to expect an ever increasing and more wastful standard of living, substituting worthless material junk for real life.
We need to completely re-examine our role on this planet and this is as good a time as any to start....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:07 AM

great stuff Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

On the question of hypocrisy, I wrote the following in the late 1960s in support of the SNP.


The Scottish MP: words Jim MacLean tune: Off to Dublin in the Green

Chorus:
I'm off to London in the morn, in the morn
In Westminster I will be
And I'll leave behind my brains and mind
And try for am M.B.E.

Oh I am a Scottish M.P.
From a city grey and black
And I'll shut my mouth when I'm in the south
Just in case they send me back
Now some folk work for Labour
And some for the Tory class
But I work like hell for me mysel'
And the rest can kiss my - kilt

Oh Scotland, dearest Scotland
You have given me your trust
If I make the grade to the Board of Trade
Just guess who'll I trade first
I'll trade the Lowlands for a peerage
Give me an earldom for the Isles
And the whole damn lot could be easily bought
With one of Lizzie's smiles

Oh I am a Scots Home Ruler
At my English Queen's command
For my real birthright is to be a knight
And the rest can be republican
So come Grimond, Home and Ramsay Mac
Our Scottish Englishmen
Nationality for a Scots M.P.
Means tea at Number Ten

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:18 PM

'And once again you'll get blindsided. That's what happened to people in the UK when they elected Tony Blair's government. '

I don't think so really. The electable Labour leaders have all been pretty right wing. Wilson used to get the odd rush of blood to the head - but his critics always complained of him as 'the galloping pragmatist' - making up policies to suit the circumstances rather than from deeply held belief.

The left wing always say they've been sold out, but the lessons of history are there on the History Channel every day of the week. Europe is undependable as an ally. By and large,(with a few glitches like Suez) America has been in our corner - and probably we owe our survival and loyalty to them. The English are a very conservative electorate - Euro sceptic, and they recognise the value of the American alliance.

Oddballs like Kinnock and Foot stood no chance, even with only an unpopular government of incompetent Thatcherite lickspittles to defeat.

If you vote Labour and they get in. You have the status quo but with some humanitarian depth in their vision. Nobody thinks voting Labour is voting for the red revolution. Just some Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:17 PM

"Both main English parties are strong believers in shadowing and supporting American foreign policy."

That is also true, to a considerable extent, of Canada's government...although it is far less to the right politically speaking than the USA. At present, over 75% of Canadians would vote for Obama, not McCain...and we are in Afghanistan despite the fact that the majority of our public would prefer that we were not.

The reason for that is simple. Our government doesn't really serve the Canadian people, it serves its corporate financial backers, and they are the same people whom the British and American governments serve.

Elections are held to give people the impression that their opinion still matters. It doesn't matter much. The party machines don't serve the public either, you see, but they blow off a great deal of hot air trying to act as if they do, (and I'm sure that most of their party members at the lower levels innocently believe that stuff too). They will promise you anything when they want your vote. ;-) Once elected, they'll do something else entirely, because they don't work for you. They'll do what they had planned to do anyway, but what they didn't bother mentioning to you when they were courting your votes...and you won't be able to stop them, because once they're in...they're in till the next election. So you'll finally get disgusted and vote them out, and then the other corporate servant party will do the very same thing to you...in a slightly different manner, perhaps, but essentially the same thing.

And once again you'll get blindsided. That's what happened to people in the UK when they elected Tony Blair's government.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM

Yeh but the thing is Doug - politics in France are a great deal more extreme than over here.

Whereas the the USAF has bases with nuclear weapons in this country. When they went to bomb Gaddafi - France wouldn't even let the planes that set off from England use French airspace. We are a lot more right wing than France - our right wing does get elected. But their right wing is less significant and scary - they're like National Front almost fascist party. Very nationalistic. They don't really expect to get elected.

Our right wing has two parts to it - both contained in the Tory party and both for the most part - respectful of the democratic process (which figures because they are quite popular and DO get elected). There is an anti European old guard and a radical right. Its an odd mixture - you never know exactly where you are with them.

They stand for tax breaks and lots of perks for the stinking rich and everything else is pretty much negotiable.

Both main English parties are strong believers in shadowing and supporting American foreign policy.