BS: Reasons for being a Conservative

Subject: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:55 PM

There are a multitude of reasons to be a Liberal posted here, and a multitude of definitions of what it means to be one - big or little "C".

Do you call yourself conservative?

why?

What is it about your views that puts you in that category?

Thatcher - Cameron - Bush - Putin ...

Are those even fair examples?

My mind is open and willing to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:03 PM

Its interesting, Eric Alterman called Eisenhower and Nixon and even Joe MaCarthy self described liberals. That doesn't leave much room on the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

I was hoping to read definitions from conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:25 PM

Well, if you look over on the "Why We Are liberals" thread, one of our recent conservative arrivals listed a bunch of reasons. Maybe it is unfortunate that he just borrowed my own statements about the liberal tradition and took them as his own, but it does say something.

I wish we could get clear propositions from the right side of the aisle in their own words and their own thoughts. It would be more believable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Conservrative
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

I am conservrative because Rush tells me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

I did read it and that was the inspiration for asking the question.

We're pretty swamped in liberal politics on this site and I had hoped to create a forum where Cons might feel comfortable setting out their own philosophical stalls as it were.

I can of course check up on wiki etc, but I was curious about what it means to mudcat cons, and to see what different perspectives they take.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

One problem is distinguishing between Classic Conservatism, which is generically liberal in many ways, and "NeoConservatism" which warps the definition and is actually some sort of radical imperialism or some such.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

The only definition that counts in the US is talk show conservatism, which is just an ego-stroking way way of saying selfish.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:53 PM

I've got a vicious wit when I want to use it.

Many of us here are pretty articulate and capable of turning a phrase so sharp it could cut godzillas toenails.

I generally tend to lean towards political left out of loyalty to my priorities and my long held views on how best to achieve a reality where they are best served.

If you see yourself as a conservative, what are your priorities and how would you see them met?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:05 PM

Lox,

They are afraid of this thread. With good reason.

Here is a staring point for them.

Rules of the MudCat Conservative.

1. Only argue where you think you can win!
2. Stick to the negative.
3. Do not say what your candidate is for only why you hate the other guy.
4. Don't express an opinion until you get the consensus of the opinion leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:11 PM

You want reasons? Here're some good reasons...

1. Keep society from gettin' taken over by wimps and bleedin' hearts!
2. Keep up the old classic styles in quality clothing instead of the dumb and vulgar stuff I see bein' marketed lately. Fedoras, yes! Backwards baseball caps, no!
3. Protect the sanctity of the Tree House.
4. Stop the greasin' of grapevines by liberal saboteurs.
5. Stop givin' guns a bad name.
6. Stop givin' self-defense a bad name.
7. Stop givin' slimy little jerks like Woody Allen money for inflictin' their whininess on the rest of us.
8. Give Dirty Harry back the respect he deserves. He gets the job done.
9. Move jobs back to America! We need to make more stuff here, not buy it from Asia.
10. Promote small business. There was once a couple hundred unique car companies in America. Now ya got the Big Three. Ya know what I call that? Corporate Communism, that's what I call it. That ain't real competition, it's a virtual monopoly, and you notice what a lousy and overpriced product they make?

There are a lotta phony conservatives out there and the government right now is full of 'em. They ain't real conservatives at all. They are traitors to real conservatism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:17 PM

"Maybe it is unfortunate that he just borrowed my own statements about the liberal tradition and took them as his own, but it does say something."

Amos,

Never, at any time, in the other thread, did I claim those thoughts as my own. I was simply trying to make the point that the thoughts that you listed could work for both liberal and conservative. I was actually trying to keep the conversation civil and thought provoking. I've had those types of conversations with you before.

But since you posted the above statement and made me look like some type of plagiarizing village idiot, I think that the point has been made, by you, that if you call yourself a liberal, then you must be quick to judge motives and prey upon those who you consider inferior because of their soft spokeness and evident lack of access to the latest edition of Roget's thesaurus.

Or maybe you're just too smart. Maybe all of that knowledge is just loosely compiled in the wrinkles of your grey matter and you just skim over the subtleties that evidently a few other people in the room caught.

Whatever the reason is, it is now evident, to at least this conservative, that you have no interest in trying to at least understand the opposing side.

That's what wrong with congress now. On both sides.

Oh....and by the way....

"one of our recent conservative arrivals"

It hasn't been recent.

I've been here since Feb. '05.
I dropped off for a while and when I returned, I couldn't remember my password. After trying several and variations of what I thought it could be, I emailed Joe Offer. I never received a response from him. Go figure.
I mean with the name of Susu's Hubby, why would Joe, a man who I know doesn't agree with me politically, want to help me?

So I see that you haven't changed a bit. Sort of flies all up in the face of the term "liberal" doesn't it.


Hubby...

er...YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:26 PM

Why don't you post as GUEST, Susu's hubby?

Why don't you answer Lox's initial question?

By the way, I still don't consider Bush/McCain supporters to be conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:02 PM

JTS
I don't post as Guest because then I can't send or receive PM's.
And by the way...I really don't care what you consider.

In answer to Lox's question....

What good would it really do to answer the question? Just go back and read some of my posts as Susu's Hubby.

That's really such a broad question and can be answered in very broad terms.

In the other thread, I pressed for an answer because I knew the same thing about "liberals".

They're both impossible to put an exact definition on because of the nature of all of the beliefs surrounding each issue. Besides, with the preconceived ideas that everyone has in their heads about what the terms mean then this thread is doomed to lapse into a meaningless argument between the few that just hang around to find chinks in the other's armor. Just look at the "Why we're Liberals" thread.

Look at the oil issue.

In just that one issue, you have the opinions of people in Texas who say drill, drill, drill. But you also have the people in Washington state saying no drilling for the good of the spotted owl. But then you have the Gore dominion screaming about global warming because of the burning of those same fossil fuels. But if you look at the alternative energy such as wind, electric, and biofuels, you have people still screaming because of the emissions of steel plants that make the windmill towers or the environmentalists screaming about the cutting down of trees for the poles to string of electric lines or you have the middle class soccer moms screaming about the cost of corn or other foods because of the demand put on those items in the interest of making biofuels.
You see, with just that one issue, it opens the door for thirteen other ones that tie in and connect.
We can go by dictionary standards all day long but in the end, will it make it any clearer to you?

I think you know the answer to that.


YES!!

By the way the following link helps to make my point.


I'm in total agreement with this.....

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

Blues a nicer colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:18 PM

Thanks for the link. V. interesting.

But you didn't read my question.

Nor how I qualified it.

"What is it about your views that puts you in that category?"

"If you see yourself as a conservative, what are your priorities and how would you see them met?"

"I can of course check up on wiki etc, but I was curious about what it means to mudcat cons, and to see what different perspectives they take."

Are there any others?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:22 PM

Oh and WLD - I had meant to ask - what about brits?

My daughters eys are blue.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:39 PM

That doesn't really help me either

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:40 PM

I am a conservative because I believe in the Constitution as ratified and amended. Any branch of government overreaching its enumerated powers is doing wrong.

I am a conservative because I believe the Federal Government should be responsible for the defense of the country, entering treaties with foreign governments, moderate as between the states, and assist in major projects that benefit the country as a whole, but should largely leave everyday life decisions to local governances and the people.

I am a conservative because I believe that individuals, families, private secular and religious organizations should work ameliorate the problems of the commonalty to the extent possible, with as little governmental intrusion as possible. Governments should be the last resort, as it were.

I am a conservative because I know that living is dangerous. I don't need or want any governmental group abridging anybody's right to do things that may be bad or harmful for them. I want people to exercise the right to make their own mistakes, learn from them and go forward.

I am a conservative because I believe that individuals should be held accountable for their actions, and should so hold themselves accountable as well. If people make informed decisions--or uninformed decisions where information is available-- which harm them, they should accept the consequences. This includes social, financial and health decisions.

I am a conservative because I believe in the following hierarchy of controls in one's life: self, local (city, town) ordinances, state laws, federal laws…with less control the farther away from local control one gets.

I am a conservative because I believe that Conservatism generally makes decisions more in keeping with what I believe. [And as I have said 'generally' that means I don't believe that Conservatism always lives up to those ideals.]

I keep seeing the term Neo-conservative (Neo-Con) pop up here at Mudcat. I have asked what this means, because it isn't used, from what I can see here , as what it meant from the 1970s when it first gained currency.   So allow me to close with an analogy (this is tome is already a page long):

Many Jews 'keep Kosher', meaning they follow food rituals, and eat only foods so prepared. But for some Jews, Kosher isn't good enough, so they follow 'Glatt Kosher' ritual, which I lovingly call "More Kosher than thou." As many liberals don't think the term conservative accurately connotes the meanness of us as is, I believe they have co-opted the term Neo-Con to describe conservatism as really venal.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: fumblefingers
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM

Asking a conservative to explain why he's conservative in here is a bit like inviting a young girl into a whorehouse and asking her to explain why she's still a virgin.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:46 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:34 PM

Was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:52 PM

Now there's a big plate to chew over!

Amy other cons care to add their tuppence?

I note with interest that without Obama in the mix the discussion another minority group concerned about prejudicial discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:54 PM

*edit*

I note with interest that without Obama in the mix the discussion *reveals* another minority group concerned about prejudicial discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:54 PM

I use Neoconservative to refer to a specific group of US leaders, starting with William Kristol, who have self identified as such.

But this definition seems more complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

The main reasons for being a conservative? Selfishness and greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:10 PM

Its generally a veneer for self interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

I found this definition in the Urban Dictionary under "I'm Alright Jack". It fits my idea of conservatism.

"Attitude of "every man for himself, survival of the fittest, devil take the hindmost", ... but also, that all the possible advantages (however gained), success (however won) and satisfaction (whatever the cost to others) belong to me first!" Narrow-focus, narrow-gauge pseudo-Darwinian selfishness glorified as a sensible philosophy of society and life."

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:29 PM

And what exactly is wrong with self-interest? I mean, look, you gotta have some self-interest if yer gonna be conscious at all. Everybody has some self-interest. That don't mean that yer gonna be antisocial. I figger that my own natural self-interest depends on bein' reasonably in tune with other people's self-interest too, right? It is in the self-interest of all of us to get along with each other and prosper, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:43 PM

William Kristal is not a US leader, anymore than, on the other side say, Chris Matthews; he is a conservative commentator. He does pretty much hold to that idea, among many others, but the Wiki definition seems pretty narrow,

It seems, though you have chosen to comment on my definitional observation of Neocon, but have chosen not to engage my reasons for being conservative, as called for in the thread tile.

Richard Bridge and you have reached inanely simplistic reasons. What is it about some liberals that they can't engage in dialogue, but do bumper sticker very well?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:13 PM

Keep in mind that Richard Bridge, as a non-American, may hold a different definition of liberal as well as conservative...

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM

Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others.

                                              Ambrose Bierce

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:56 PM

John,

I have no problems wit most of your reasons. I will say that most are not uniquely conservative. No doubt we could have discussion on the practical application of them.

for example...

>>I am a conservative because I believe that individuals, families, private secular and religious organizations should work ameliorate the problems of the commonalty to the extent possible, with as little governmental intrusion as possible. Governments should be the last resort, as it were.<<<

I am not a Liberal but I would think that most liberals would say the government help should be a last resort. Speaking from experiences of what I have seen, it usually is. You think that people are saying, to families and churches "Don't help me. I'd rather go on welfare?"

Of course Kristol is a leader and Matthews is not. Kristol pronounces and people listen. Matthews is a disorganized clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM

JotSC provides a thoughtful list. In fact, on the face of it, it is hard to disagree with most of the 'sentiments' expressed. I do see, however, some unspoken implications buried in those 'reasonable' ideas, relating to methods of implementing them.

I would like to see some other input before I say any more, though....as this IS supposed to be a thread asking conservatives for their feelings.

(Yes, I realize that they are in the minority at Mudcat...but several have often had opinions. Perhaps they can elucidate the basis for their positions)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:58 PM

When I read definitions of conservatism, I find that I'm quite conservative in many of my political beliefs. But how do any of those--fiscal responsibility, accountability for actions, belief in the Constitution, belief that the Federal government shouldn't interfere with individual and family affairs--apply to the present Administration?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:04 PM

Hubby:

My apologies for not recognizing you.

And also for misinterpreting the way you borrowed my words. I have had my own words used against me a number of times in similarly clever ways before, but with less polite motivations. You might understand that it can be irritating to see your own composition twisted, but I understand that is not what you meant to do,.

I am not sure I agree with your fundamental point that all those thoughts could define conservatism as readily as liberalism, though. I think the term conservative is not well defined in these conversations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:15 PM

It seems to me that both of these terms have become so twisted neither one of them mean much of anything anymore.

                   Look at Ronald Reagan, for instance. The right wing praises him for being conservative, but all he ever did was conserve the right to be stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:31 PM

I always thought I was a conservative, but not in terms of any Republicanism I have witnessed in my adulthood, coinciding with the "neoconservative" period. If you read the wikipedia entry for neoconservative, it does describe something venal. Reactionary social intolerance, aggressive foreign policy with preemptive war, and a cold-hearted approach to social safety nets, with corporate influence in government seemingly unchecked (last observation mine). Sorry - but if "neoconservatism" is as described in wikipedia, it's no use to pretend that it's just a different approach to the same objectives all citizen should hold dear.

(Not helpful, Lox, I know. Sorry.)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM

Actually, heric, it sounds to me like what Wikipeia is describing in fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:39 AM

Amos,

You are a true gentleman.

Thank you.

I, too, apologize if my reaction was overblown.



YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:20 AM

Where is Martin Gibson when we need him.

Say what you want about Martin, he could always be relied upon to state the conservative point of view in the most objectionable way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:33 AM

Chongo Chimp for president!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:03 AM

""There are a multitude of reasons to be a Liberal posted here, and a multitude of definitions of what it means to be one - big or little "C".

Do you call yourself conservative?

why?""

Define Liberal......US or UK definition?
Define Conservative.......US or UK definition?......Large or small C (Conservative or conservative)

When you have done so, we will know something about the intent of your question, specifically which of us is the intended target of the s**tstorm of personal abuse which our responses will inevitably provoke.

One look at the comment below, which came, predictably, from Jack the Sailor, will tell you what the rest of this thread will be like.



""1. Only argue where you think you can win!
2. Stick to the negative.
3. Do not say what your candidate is for only why you hate the other guy.
4. Don't express an opinion until you get the consensus of the opinion leaders.""


If you are really interested in MY reasons, PM me and I'll answer.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you will forgive me if I decline to join your Tory bashing session.

HAVE FUN!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Cats
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM

Having just had a meeting with David Cameron where I asked him about state education..... [I know, name dropping], I am now even more determined never to vote conservative. 'Change in education stops teachers being complacent.'

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Cats
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM

Sorry, forgot to add, Mike Gibson, aka Cllr [a genuine Consevative councillor] is in Sidmouth this week so is Mudcatless.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

"I keep seeing the term Neo-conservative (Neo-Con) pop up here at Mudcat. I have asked what this means, because it isn't used, from what I can see here , as what it meant from the 1970s when it first gained currency."   

Hi, John. I'd like to point out that the term "neo-con has been closely connected in thought with the term New World Order, and that goes back to the very late 1800s. I posted a link to the article done by a prof at Harvard--I don't think of Harvard as being any better than many other universities; that's just where the guy worked--a few years back.

Hope you've been doing well. Good to see you posting again.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Peace, I understand that Neocon and New World Order have often recently bee been used conjunctively. However, most conservatives I have heard use NWO as a pejorative, just as liberals use the N word to cast conservatives in the worst possible light.

It is interesting to me, if true, that the word Neocon has been used for as long as you say. I googled 'Neocon + 19th century'. The closest i could find, were some book reviews and commentaries whic apply the use of the term ex post facto to 18th and 19th century British and French colonialism, and to American actions against the likes of the Barbary Pirates. But I found no contemporaneous use of that term; have you a citation for its use?

If you are correct, then Irving (not William) Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, et. al. have been classified (or self -classified) with a designation which was erroneous.

Hope your Summer is going well--it seems so, viewing the activity about you in the music section. Good-o!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Stu
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

I was once in the Young Conservatives, about 25 years ago and I actually patted Thatcher on the back once; I was co-opted onto the committee (it was in a well-to-do commuter village) by the then Chairman, who is now a very respected political commentator and helped run the branch. In truth, although I thought I was a Tory at the time (my father is and was a true blue), it became obvious my heart wasn't in it, and here's why.

We had a succession of debates in between the drinking bouts, where we would invite people from opposing views to come and give their side of the story and engage in some robust discussion. I always really enjoyed these, and one day we had a chap come in from Shelter, an organisation that helps the homeless. He set his stall out early on, saying he was a Socialist and when we'd finished talking about housing (some of the member's parents had lots of money and very big houses - we all came from financially well-off backgrounds) he'd be happy to discuss anything with us. As the debate (which was heated but never nasty) wore on I realised this chap spoke my language - he was articulating what I thought in a way I never heard anyone before. That got me thinking.

Later in 1983, the year of the general election the last major political event before polling day was a big rally at Wembley Conference Centre. We were promised lots of celebs, rousing political speeches etc. On the coach on the way down to London we pulled over at Watford Gap services on the M1. That week, the people's march for jobs had made their way to parliament to protest the massive cuts Thatcher was inflicting on the various manufacturing industry in the North East. Several of the members from our bus went and plastered their coach with Young Conservative stickers and when the marchers came to protest they were treated to a tirade of abuse. I was sickened to the core - I almost got off the bus and went back North there and then. The disrespect shown to people trying to save their communities was nothing short of pathetic - I realised these privileged little oichs were utterly contemptuous of these people who were protesting peacefully, and I was ashamed to have been with them.

The rally went ahead, the usual sort of bollocks you get at any of these events regardless of political party and when Thatcher walked round I patted her on the back - I now wish I'd have twatted her round the head.

When I got back I was charged with liasing with the senior association's local branches, and part of that job was sitting on on committee meetings where strategy was formulated, campaigns planned and events organised. It became clear they were not interested in anything but their own little club. When a new member in his early 40's arrived from Chelmsford and suggested a disco they said there was no demand for "that sort of thing" and "people here prefer garden parties"; when I countered my mum and dad went to discos with their friends and they would be interested I was pretty much told to shut up.

I realised here were the people who ran the Tory party - the grass roots activists were generally sixty-something, well-off and suspicious of anything that would rock their little world. They were clueless and cared less about the plight of people who were struggling under the new economic realities of Thatcher's monetarist Britain. After several more events showing the workings of the party, resigned from the committee and left on political grounds (possibly a first for a Young Conservative).

This is why Cameron is popular in the short-term - an Eton toff will appeal to this demographic, but in the long run I think it spells trouble for him. There are plenty of old Thatcherites left in the party and these people are the ones running the party at grass routes level, and reform is not on their agenda. If the tories get back in, it'll be the early 1980's all over again and that is bad news.

I eventually found the political and philosophical creed which made the most sense to me: Marxism, and today I'm still finding my way through this most thoughtful and interesting of ideologies, which like socialism is a broad church with much to consider beyond the basic Tory desire to put the interests of oneself before all else in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Of course in England, Conservative is a political party.

There are some pretty decent Conservatives, as there are in all the parties - some nice people.

Trouble is, there are some total bumholes in all the political parties and fortune does seem to favour the complete bumhole.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 11:08 AM

I've always understood the defining principle for anything that could count as genuinely conservative would be that change should only be welcomed when it can be shown that it is not going to make things worse, and is likely to make things better. As such there is nothing intrinsically right-wing about the position.

Many people (and all parties) who call themselves "conservative", do not in fact appear to hold to that principle, but rather to one of welcoming changes which brings advantages for people who are relatively well-off, regardless of the impact they are likely to have on society as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:09 PM

Neo-conservatism is the latest reincarnation of fascism.

As for traditional conservatism, that is a philosophy with many good points, as is traditional liberalism.

Either conservatism or liberalism can turn quite sour, though, when taken to extremes.