BS: Reasons for being a Conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

On some issues I am very left-wing. On others very right-wing. On others very center-of-the-road. Something I am NOT and never will be is a member of ANY political party. When I am asked for my political affiliation I usually just tell the pollster "Marijuana Party--the ultimate in GREEN".

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

Little Hawk, you make my case--liberals often use Neo-Conservatism as a pejoritive. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

I'll *cough* to that, LH...

Other than that, I've allready stated many times that most folks who say they are conservative are clueless about what it means to be conservative and are just loyal partisan Republicans who go along with, and vigorously defend, whatever the Republicans tell them with no real regard to one's individual values or philosophies...

But that is the way the system works... Or in the case of the problems that the country faces today, doesn't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

From the dim recesses of my fading memory-- a poem

The Perfect Conservative
(Anon)

As I was sitting in a chair
I knew the bottom wasn't there
Nor back nor legs. But there I sat
Ignoring little things like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

>>Little Hawk, you make my case--liberals often use Neo-Conservatism as a pejoritive. Thank you.

For one thing, people calling themselves Neocon have done some very bad things. Even if Pax Americana is a good thing in your eyes. To many of us it is the vending of America's soul for the illusion of peace and for empire. Even if it were to bring about all that Bill Kristol and Cheney and Wolfowitz and Feith promise. The cost is way too high.

Te Neocons are a very specific group doing nasty things. What would you have us do? Try to be politically correct and not offend them? Do I detect some liberalism in your point of view?

On the other hand "liberal" is a broad term with a grand history and some wonderful leaders as its paragon, including Eisenhower. Self identified "conservatives", not you that I remember, use that word as a pejorative pretty much every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM

"New Labour" is a pretty pejorative term too. Especially from looking at it from the left. Or from the centre for that matter.

Surely the reason why people use "Neo-Conservative" pejoratively is as a way of distinguishing them from conservative minded people, who distrust unnecessary and dangerous changes which threaten social cohesion - the kind of changes that Neo-Cons are associated with.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM

My last post disappeared.

In it I said that, yes, I use "Neoconservative" as a pejorative. I do not, however, use "conservative" as a pejorative.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

John on the Sunset Coast has brought up an interesting point.

Is Neocon a pejorative or is it simply a name for something that some of us don't like? Is it a perjorative when it is an honest description?


In the interest of disclosure.
I have to admit that two weeks ago I called Andrea Mitchell a neocon. I didn't mean it as a pejorative. I meant it as a short hand for a group of values. I must say that it was an exaggeration. So really, I used "Neocon" the way that DougR uses "liberal" which was at the very least a tactical error, because I could have used the word "conservative" not offended anyone, made my point and been factually correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:18 PM

The unfortunate thing that has occurred is that many of us use 'politician' as a perjorative term. Rightfully so, but sad nevertheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

The term neo-conservatism in the US is explained in this wikipedia page.

Scroll down that page to "usage and general views" for the different ways neo-conservative term has been used since 1883 to 2008.

quote
"John McGowan, professor of humanities at the University of North Carolina, states, after an extensive review of neoconservative literature and theory, that neoconservatives are attempting to build an American empire, seen as successor to the British Empire, its aim being to perpetuate a Pax Americana. As imperialism is largely seen as unacceptable by the American public, neoconservatives do not articulate their ideas and goals in a frank manner in public discourse. McGowan states, 'Frank neoconservatives like Robert Kaplan and Niall Ferguson recognize that they are proposing imperialism as the alternative to liberal internationalism. Yet both Kaplan and Ferguson also understand that imperialism runs so counter to American's liberal tradition that it must... remain a foreign policy that dare not speak its name...'"

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

>>Surely the reason why people use "Neo-Conservative" pejoratively is as a way of distinguishing them from conservative minded people, who distrust unnecessary and dangerous changes which threaten social cohesion - the kind of changes that Neo-Cons are associated with. <<

That nails it down pretty well. I've said it before on the McCain thread and I'll say it again here: I do not understand why Straightalking McCain is not brave enough to expressly distance himself from this crowd. He has done it in deed but he won't do it in words. It is for that reason that he loses my vote and I am willing to take the longshot on Mr. Unknown. I am sure I am not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

Thank you, Alice for that lead..

From Wikipedia:
"In the early 1970s, democratic socialist Michael Harrington used the term in its modern meaning. He characterized neoconservatives as former leftists — whom he derided as "socialists for Nixon" — who had moved significantly to the right. These people tended to remain supporters of social democracy, but distinguished themselves by allying with the Nixon administration over foreign policy, especially by their support for the Vietnam War and opposition to the Soviet Union. They still supported the welfare state, but not necessarily in its contemporary form.

Irving Kristol remarked that a neoconservative is a "liberal mugged by reality," one who became more conservative after seeing the results of liberal policies. Kristol also claims three distinctive aspects of neoconservatism from previous forms of conservatism: a forward-looking approach drawn from their liberal heritage, rather than the reactionary and dour approach of previous conservatives; a meliorative outlook, proposing alternate reforms rather than simply attacking social liberal reforms; taking philosophical or ideological ideas very seriously.[32]"

These paragraphs largely comport with my understand of American Neoconservatism. I find little if any relationship to the way most liberalsm posting here have used the term. And I certainly don't see Geo. Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove et. al. as subscribing to the philosophy embodied in those paragraphs.

I reiterate, most of you have been using the term Neoconservative in a generally pejorative, erroneous way to further your own agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Hey I AM invisible. I already discussed the same "lead." I reiterate, everyone, including progressives, liberals, traditional conservatives and libertarians, views that term unkindly. And the 1970 meaning of the term is not today's meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

Didn't Neoconservatives invent the term themselves, which serves to distingish them from more traditional conservatives, whom they see as no more than a variety of liberal? (eg in the States, Eisenhower)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Well, John, that's interesting. What I am opposed to is an aggressive imperial policy aimed at building a world empire, and one that sanctions wars of choice and various types of hostile takeovers. I would be opposed to it regardless of what nation or group was doing it. So what do you call that sort of a policy?

I am also opposed to excessive militarism and moves in the direction of establishing a police state. Again, what do you call that sort of policy?

I wouldn't call it "conservative", that's for sure. Neither would I call it "liberal". My impression is that Bush, Cheney, Rove, et al have been in general pursuing the sort of imperial policies I described above. They are generally referred to as being "neo-conservatives", but perhaps it is a misnomer?

What about the people in the PNAC? (Project for a New American Century)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM

John, you have to read farther than the quote of Michael Harrington to see what neo-conservatism was in the 1990's and then post Sept 11.
Just that reference to what it was in the 70's is not the accurate picture of what neo-conservatism is now.

Neo-conservatives post Sept 11 urged the "pre-emptive" attack on Saddam and Iraq. It is currently the Dick Cheney form of neo-conservatism that we see in America.

You have to read to the end of the page, which is why I wrote, scroll to: "usage and general views" for the different ways neo-conservative term has been used since 1883 to 2008.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

Agenda?

People have agendas? Do you have an agenda? I simply thought that you were opinionated. What is your agenda?

I use the worn Neocon because I am aware of this conspiracy PNAC.
Most of the world call the PNAC's adherents and founders Neocon's. But if you don't want to that's up to you. But it makes communication more difficult. Why don't you just use the word as most everybody else does?

I don't have an agenda. I'm just talking on the Internet. I like the give and take and find that when I am challenging and provocative, I learn things.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

John you use the Wikipedia definition for Neocon. Taking that as being definitive, here is their definition for PNAC.

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C., co-founded in early 1997 as "a non-profit educational organization" by William Kristol and Robert Kagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Self identified neoconservatives

Elliott Abrams        Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Democracy, Human Rights, and International Operations (2001–2002), Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Near East and North African Affairs (2002–2005), Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy (2005-) (all within the National Security Council)

Richard Armitage        Deputy Secretary of State (2001-2005)

John R. Bolton        Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs (2001-2005), U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2005-2006)

Dick Cheney        Vice President (2001-)

Eliot A. Cohen        Member of the Defense Policy Advisory Board (2007-)[82]

Seth Cropsey        Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau (12/2002-12/2004)

Paula Dobriansky        Under-Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2007)

Francis Fukuyama        Member of the The President's Council on Bioethics (2001-2005)

Zalmay Khalilzad        U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan (11/2003 - 6/2005), U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (6/2005 - 3/2007) U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2007-)

I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby        Chief of Staff for the Vice President (2001-2005)

Richard Perle        Chairman of the Board, Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee (2001-2003)

Peter W. Rodman        Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security (2001-2007)

Donald Rumsfeld        Secretary of Defense (2001-2006)

Randy Scheunemann        Member of the U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute

Paul Wolfowitz        Deputy Secretary of Defense (2001-2005)

Dov S. Zakheim        Department of Defense Comptroller (2001-2004)

Robert B. Zoellick        Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005), Deputy Secretary of State (2005-2006)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

I posted a link to that document about four years ago. It is very scary reading, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:26 PM

Alice, I purposefully did not mention the earlier discussion of Neoconservatism because it has nothing to do with the American neoconservatism of the Harrington/Kristol definition (I also didn't note that notwithstanding Wiki, I had always thought the term originated with IK). I did address the Cheney/Bush thing.

The fact that some neoconservatives urged or supported a preemptive strike, does not make that a neoconservative tenet. My wife, who is a pretty liberal Democrat (you'll have to take my word for that) also supported the Iraq invasion (until, at least, it went south), but that doesn't make the invasion a liberal policy.
                     
                      -----------------
Heric, if you came to that conclusion before I, I salute you for your sagacity. You are correct the definition now used has sweet nothing in common with the 1970 term.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

So John, are you saying that you use the 1970 term and I use the 1997 to now term?

That seems about right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM

'There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

`Would you tell me please,' said Alice, `what that means?'

`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Believe it or not, I have that little excerpt hanging in a small frame.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

Heric

I choose to believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM

Okay then, I'll vote for Obama for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

So let's move along to the next discussion, about seal puppies.   ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

>>>So let's move along to the next discussion, about seal puppies.   ;~)

For some reason Heric, those discussion only seem to coincide with the fundraising drives of "animal rights groups" in the spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

This is an interesting thread and I am pleased to see that defining what it means to be a conservative, from the horses mouth as it were, is as hard as defining what it means to be a liberal.

I've had a good hunt for some Tory bashing but couldn't find any so I'll ignore Dons cynical egotism and pay attention to the conservatives who have bothered to read. It's up to you to join in if you want. If you don't thats fine - interesting how you posted at such length to explain why you wouldn't be posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Naemanson
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:44 AM

I used to pay attention to the political run around and kept abreast of all the latest arguments. Then I realized that there is no end to it. One party wants something one year and then screams when the other party achieves it in the next. Nobody has any attention span longer than the next election and none are truly interested in doing any good, just in winning the next contest.

As such there is nothing positive that can come out of it. They go round and round and round until everyone falls off the merry-go-round. Whenever I listen to the news I just get pissed off at how often things repeat. I once went two years ignoring the news, just catching little snippets here and there by mistake. When I finally had to listen to another newscast I realized it was almost exactly the same news I'd heard two years previously.

Let me give you the headlines for 2012. First up - Trouble in the Middle East. Israel and ____ are fighting again. Afghanistan and Iraq are once more run by ultra conservative Muslim extremists. Then we have the election. The latest white boy from the Republican party is running against whichever woman or black person manages to get the votes. When the votes are counted the Republicans win because they have once more frightened the nation at the prospect of having one of "them" in the white house. Plus Nader stole a lot of voters. Let's see, oh yes, the infrastructure of our "great" nation continues to crumble with repairs being made only after more people get crushed or drowned. Drilling for oil is proceeding in all areas including wildlife sanctuaries. Species are going extinct at an alarming rate. ExonMobile and Shell are racing to pump the last ounce out of the ground so they can sell it to Japan and China. In this country people are complaining that they cannot afford to get to work. The Government once more undertakes a study to evaluate the cost of providing mass transit. And once more it proves impossible.

Anyone want to keep track of these in the next election year?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:59 AM

Sounds like you're starting to catch on... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:03 AM

Nope.

By 2012 either McCain has balanced the budget and dropped the price of gas to thirty cents a gallon by drilling in SeaWorld. Or Obama has switched us all to electric scooters powered by moonbeams and unicorn farts. And the only thing standing in the way of these things is White, Catholic voters in the rustbelt. At least that's the impression I get watching MSNBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Conservative or (neo)conservative... Don't much matter 'cause both have run their course in American politics... Even a John McCain victory can't change that...

The conservatives have long held the belief that the Governemnt is evil and the free market is all that is wholesome and good... Problem is that this little 30 year experiement hasn't worked for the good of the country...

Yes, it has been very good for the upper 10% but the lower 90% have had to carry not only a heavier tax burden but also the risk of the upper 10%...

I think Katrina woke everyone up to the fact that the conservatives, while holding power and fully responsible for the actions/inactionms of the government, have not made US safer...

And "deregulation", once the darling of the conservative movement has come hauntingly back to bite US...

Yeah, the conservatives tried to "starve the beast" but didn't realize that "the beast" is waht make US a civilized and compassionate nation and it is now apparent that people don't want the beast starved but corrected so that "the beast" will better protect and serve the people...

So, regardless of the outcome of the upcoming election, you can put a fork in this phase of American history because it is done...

(Well, Boberdz, then why do you think that McCain might win in November if the conservative movement is DOA???)

Simple... A lot of folks will not vote for a black person... Period...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:59 AM

Bobert - I agree with everything you say above, but there were conservatives that go back beyond the 30 year mark. I think that's the point where they went off in a direction that was unsustainable.

                   Eisenhower considered himself to be conservative, but he, a five-star general, was the first one to warn the American public about the Military-Industrial-Complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM

Being Conservative is not of and by itself a bad thing. Nor is being Liberal. Both types of parties (Rep/Dem in the US and Cons/Libs in Canada) have done stuff their respective party members should be and sometimes are ashamed of. Labels help ya find which cans have beans. Opening the cans and tasting the beans let ya know if they're any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:19 AM

We are indeed bombarded with the same bad news all the time.

When we are young we are new to the world and we feel a strong impulse to do something to change things.

We don't really know where to start so we rant at the older generation who seem blithely uninterested and whose understanding smiles are nothing short of frustrating.

As we get older we see the same cycles repeating and our optimism in the possibility of change wanes and in many people dies.

The age at which this happens seems to be getting younger and younger to the point that there are 14 year olds out there with all the fatalistic resignation of 70 year olds.

We think to ourselves - hey what the hell - nothing changes, I may as well try to make the journey as painless for me and my kids as possible.

I may as well just accept that the world is full of bad people, poverty, war etc and take the realistic approach which is to ensure that if the world is going to hell that a least I've got a comfortable safe seat with a minibar where I can be away from all the sad/bad experiences.

I feel the lure to live that way drawing me in like a vortex.

Build me a substitute womb in which to dwell.

Let me be numb and blind to the plight of the world cos there's not much I can do about it.

The problem is that being human I have a nerve in the pit of my stomach that is ill from the pain of humankind.

I'm not a martyr - it's natural.

It's also an intelligent survival instinct as I am informed enough to know that human kind cannot live in isolation, but need each other to survive. And bein so informed I can't ignore it - though I would love to.

That's why I'm a sucker for a guy like Obama.

He takes the last glimmer of a spark that will not die and breathes life into it.

Naive maybe, but life is better when there is hope.

I am a happier person when I'm honest and when I believe in the possibility of change.

Now here's a question to put the cat among the pigeons ...

Is that line the line that seperates cons and libs?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:43 AM

I'm kinda interested in why people want to 'belong' to political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:48 AM

Because people like david cameron, Gordon Brown, George Bush are models of decency and humanity and we want to model ourselves on them

al

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

"Republicans

Republicans approve of the American farmer,
but they are willing to help him go broke.
They stand four-square for the American home--
but not for housing. They are strong for labor--
but they are stronger for restricting labor's
rights. They favor minimum wage--the smaller the
minimum wage the better. They endorse educational
opportunity for all--but they won't spend
money for teachers or for schools. They think
modern medical care and hospitals are fine--
for people who can afford them. They consider
electrical power a great blessing--but only when
the private power companies get their rake-off.
They think American standard of living is a fine
thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the
people. And they admire of Government of the
United States so much that they would like to
buy it."

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

Sorry. That quotation was from Harry S Truman.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

"I'm kinda interested in why people want to 'belong' to political parties."

I think if you want something done, you need to accept that on your own you are effectively powerless.

So you need to look for an organization that reperesents your interests the best and is most likely to be able to get something done about them.

For most people in the UK and the USA that means voting for one of two main political parties.

For some it means joining one or other of them to try and influence the outcome of elections to a greater extent than a single vote allows by campaigning.

For less, it means joining and trying to influence the party of their choice to be more representative of thier views.

For a very few, it means seeking to lead the party of their choice and using the party to become elected into positions of political power.

I know what I think, and you might sometimes have the patience to read about it, and on occasion even care. ;-)

But my voice is a drop in the ocean of ones and zero's that constitutes our virtual global consciousness and the chances of me being the social butterfly who created the political storm are infinitesmally small.

If I had the motivation I would join a party, but for now I content myself with using my vote as intelligently as I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:31 PM

In the UK third and fourth parties are viable and do get a voice in government.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM

I think that political parties are the problem, not the solution, and I will never belong to one.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM

I think a greater diversity of views would be more fairly represented if the first past the post electoral system were scrapped and replaced by PR.

But till then, I feel that the other parties, who should have more of a voice when their overall support base is taken into account, will continue to sit in the margins while the two big parties continue to slug it out.

And yes I should qualify my point by making it specific to England as opposed to the UK in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

>> replaced by PR.

Isn't that what causes the gridlock in Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

People lived for millenia without political parties. In some cases they managed to have fully democratic systems without any political parties, and that is what I'm recommending. In my opinion, political parties are the worst thing that ever happened to democracy and they are destroying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

LH

There's never been democracy without those with common interests or enemies banding together. Political parties are just cliques with names.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Whether there are formal parties or not, under pretty well any system there will be the Ins and the Outs.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

"...there will be the Ins and the Outs."

Are we talking politcal parties here or belly buttons?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

"Isn't that what causes the gridlock in Italy?"

No - that would be corruption.

Otherwise the same would be true in Ireland, Germany, New Zealand ...

... Austria, Belgium, Greece, Denmark, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland ...

... etc etc etc etc ...