BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!

Subject: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

Here it is.

I think it is better than his race speech, which was brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

That is one pow'ful speech indeed.

Thanks very much for the link. I would have missed it.

He's really laying it on the line. We've gone from importing a third to half of our ravenous oil habit.

This guy deserves to be the naton's leader, because he talks sense. Notice he gives due credit to John McCain when borrowing his phrases.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

JEsus. I have just gotten through this speech, and the man is completely on top, with a hard-nosed feasible plan that is both bold and possible.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:59 PM

Good ideas, hope he follows through.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:15 PM

One of the most surprising remarks I have heard today came from John McCain. The snidity and snarkiness of it was breathtaking . Obama has a detailed program laid out for the next ten years, complete with supporting statistics and with mulitple major fronts including nanotechnology, alternative fuels, alternative vehicles design, budgets, social probgrams, etc. etc., and McCain said the speech was about inflating our tires.

Of all the stupid remarks, I swan!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

Damn, he's good.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:36 PM

If Obama blew up the Middle East oil fields, you would say how fantastic a choice it was and a real sign of leadership.

He is attempting to bribe voters. Open the oil reserves, fire up the offshore drilling, free money in the form of "rebates", and a chicken in very pot.

NOT a great speech, just more selling out and flip flopping, as he was against using the strategic reserve to bring prices down before he was for it--just like the offshore drilling.

His "call" for energy efficiency is a joke, as he presents no plan for how to go about increasing efficiency in any meaningful way. The idea of giving a tax credit to people who buy a hybrid? Please. The people who can AFFORD to buy a hybrid don't need the rebate, the people who CAN'T AFFORD A NEW CAR AT ALL need a rebate.

And as for "5 million new jobs"? Really?

Where the hell is going to pull those jobs out of? His derriere? And who gets to define the "clean energy" that gets the $150 billion investments to spur this bogus "job growth" hmmmmm?

This is Obama slamming the door on the environmental movement, and he will get the response from that movement come election day.

See y'all in November.

Or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

Ooooohhh.... "snidity"?! Amos, you know I love it when you come up with words like that ; )

Dani (inch-by-inch, row-by-row... Yes We Can!)

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

What politicians say at this point is about getting elected. "Greatest country in the world" and so forth.

It's Monopoly Money. Only after the election does it become real money.

Obama is pretty obviously a better bet than McCain. Just about anyone would be a better bet than Bush has been. Obama is very probably an improvement on either of the Clinton's.

I very much hope he'll get elected, and that's a hope that's shared by people right across the political spectrum in most democratic countries. But I am sure some his most fervent admirers will find he doesn't live up to their dreams. Who could?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM

"Obama is very probably an improvement on either of the Clinton's."


                      NO! He's not!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM

This guy is really turning out to be a weasel.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM

Well, Rigs, I'm not too sure of that... I remember well Bill Clinton talkin' after Columbine about gun control... In essence, Clinton said, "I'm not going to do anything about it because the Repubnlican Congress won't pass it..." That didn't show courage or leadership at a time when the American people might have gotten behind him and passed some logical gun controls...

Fast forward to Rev. Wright.. Obama could have pulled a Clinton and said, "Hey, it will pass" but he didn't... He showed courage and talked about some very painfull stuff... He didn't have to do it... Just as he didn't have to make this speech on energy...

Clinton, IMO, was a Nixon Republican... Obama ain't... A pragmatist perhaps... But no Clintonite lap dog...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

And you know, Joe Scho gets his hybrid rebate, but that doesn't hold a candle to the corporate welfare Obama just threw Detroit carmakers in this speech!

Oh wait--Michigan is one of those swing states where Obama isn't doing so well. Which also explains one of Obama's many of other sell outs of the week--he wants to welcome ALL the Michigan and Florida delegates to the convention!

Surprise, surprise!

Aren't we all just thrilled about our President To Be Sleazy Weasel!

Anyone see the article on the CBS website today, talking about how the Obama campaign is just as secretive as Bush/Cheney (but they behave like mellow fekkiws and wear jeans, instead of like rabid raccoons in Brooks Bros suits).

Let's all just sit back and wait now for Obama to nominate a Republican vp, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

What I liked about the speech is that it seemed modeled on the Kennedy "moon shot" speech.

Challenges and promises, appealing to our better natures.


DV,

I do not enjoy pointing out something so blindingly obvious. But it seems necessary.

Many cars now have both hybrid and regular versions, with the hybrid versions costing a few thousand dollars more. The hybrid is better for the environment and for oil dependancy but generally the extra cost does not pay for its self in fuel savings. Millions of cars a being sold in this country so obviously people can afford them. What the rebates would do is give people incentive to choose the hybrid over the regular version. They could cut down on carbon and dependance on foreign oil without losing money.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM

Yeah DV,

Lets not help Michigan and three of the country's biggest employer's. Lets spend our money in Tokyo and Korea!

Hurray for Honda!!

Viva Kia!!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:53 PM

"ave you seen Obama's energy speech!"

Even for a Politician, it'd have to be better than his Apathy Speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM

LOL

I've seen the first draft of that one. Here's the beginning.

My grandmother was a typical apathetic person. She would get nervous when people were too energetic. "It makes me jumpy." She said."

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:01 PM

Damn straight hooray for Honda.

And many millions more people cannot afford to buy hybrids.

Exactly 0.5% of the sales in 2004 were hybrids. In 2008? Final figures aren't in, but we do know that the minute gas prices drop, so do hybrid sales, as happened in 06/07. Hybrids were 2.5% of the market in 2007, a whopping 2% growth in three years.

You can read about it below, from the consumeraffairs.com website:

In California, the country's largest hybrid market, changing consumer attitudes toward hybrids are influenced by more than just gasoline prices and tax credits. Uncertainty in California over the availability of HOV lane stickers for new hybrids is an additional factor slowing sales for the Prius as well as other hybrids.

The federal tax credit available to buyers of the Prius was cut in half late in 2006. Until then, the Prius enjoyed the largest hybrid credit, $3,150. The credit shrank to $1,575 on October 1.

Despite dropping sales, prices for the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid have remained virtually unchanged. The average price paid for a Prius, less any cash rebates, was $26,281 in November compared with $26,076 in August.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:04 PM

And I should mention, the above is from an article in Jan 07, so the inflation on the price of the hybrids isn't included in the $26,281 price tag.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM

Again, embarrassingly obvious, if they can't afford the hybrid, they can't afford the regular version of the same car. Is only a few thousand less.


If they can afford the regular version and a rebate allows them the hybrid for the same price, we are all better off.

Also, the cheapest cars, hybrid or not, generally get excellent mileage because they are smaller and have fewer features.

Millions of SUV drivers getting 25 MPG instead of 12 will make a huge difference in fuel prices and dependancy. That's part of what Obama's plan is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM

And Jaysus, can he spare the change? $150 billion over 10 years? Do the friggin' math. That is less per year than we are currently spending per month on our beloved 'War on Terror' (sic), most of it in Iraq.

What is this scam, Obama's cynical idea of a peace dividend in reverse, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

DV:

Boy, is that what you think of as realism?

I beg to differ with you, and with Peter as well.

Where's the weasel in figuring a way to combine resources and incentives and march away from oil addiction?

It's a better job of "weaseling" than Clinton ever did in describing where we had to go, a better job than Bush could ever pretend to do, and a better job than McCain could possibly do. So if that's weaseling, let us make the most of it.

If instead of defamation and bitterness you started thinking about how such a program could be contributed to by you and yours, in a way that did not compromise your purest vision of our ideal energy scenarion, you might help us move ahead instead of just peeing on the tires.

He has just laid out a plan that could conceivably work to remedy the biggest messes in the current national scene, a straight dialogue on how it could be done, and all you can think to do about it is call him names.

I swan, you are hard-bitten cases indeed.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

DV your 8:17 post is not internally consistent. As you say, 15 billion a year is peanuts for the federal government. Why would he need a peace dividend?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM

Sorry but you've been chumped. The Obama energy plan is about Obama getting elected, not about the energy and environmental crises we face as a nation and a planet.

It's all about beating McCain, nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:31 PM

Nope,

Its about leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:32 PM

I think I'll start a new 527 for you guys, and call it Progressives for Regressive Presidential Politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:34 PM

How will Obama reduce electricity use by 10% by the end of his first term, when we plug in one million new hybrids?

Gee Batman, this energy stuff is hard!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:40 PM

Easily, Bring the country to California standards. There is plenty of waste, especially in buildings. You didn't listen very carefully did you?

Also conventional hybrids, like the Prius, don't plug in. Gee Robin! Do you enjoy riding on the Yellow Hybrid Bus. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:45 PM

Obama cannot set state standards. And if he goes against the Detroit hybrid model (which they can't get to work, incidentally), they WILL be plug ins.

So, maybe Obama should give the carmakers his bribes back right now!

For you Obamamaniacs, from CNN:

Obama outlined three steps he'd take to meet that goal:

# Build fuel-efficient cars and have one million 150 mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrids on the roads within six years

# Require that 10 percent of the country's energy come from renewable sources by the end of his first term

# Call on businesses, government and the American people to meet the goal of reducing the demand for electricity 15 percent by the end of the next decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:56 PM

Yo, DV/Old Guy/Dickey ... You remind me of McCain... All criticism of Obama and not friggin' ideas of yer own... Not one... Just smears and swifboating...

You are quickly runnin' outta places to hide here... We ****know**** exactly who you are... Your Republican partisan stripes blare so loudly that they you don't need a computer 'cause I can here yer screamin' without it...

Ain't foolin' me, OldGuy/Dickey/Whomever...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Alice
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:58 PM

I found this in the news in the last few days: Discovery by MIT research solving the cost problems of solar energy. Electric power plants can convert to solar energy almost anywhere using this new development.
PLUG IN! TURN ON! DRIVE! - Alice
-------------

Solar Power Breakthrough: Researchers have made a major advance in inorganic chemistry that could lead to a cheap way to store energy from the sun. In so doing, they have solved one of the key problems in making solar energy a dominant source of electricity.

Daniel Nocera, a professor of chemistry at MIT, has developed a catalyst that can generate oxygen from a glass of water by splitting water molecules.

"This discovery is simply groundbreaking," says Karsten Meyer, a professor of chemistry at Friedrich Alexander University, in Germany. "Nocera has probably put a lot of researchers out of business." For solar power, Meyer says, "this is probably the most important single discovery of the century."

Click Here for rest of the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:13 PM

>># Call on businesses, government and the American people to meet the goal of reducing the demand for electricity 15 percent by the end of the next decade.

From what orifice did you get 10% by the end of his first term?

Was that a straw man? I am shocked! simply shocked! that you would use a straw man!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:19 PM

In another article on Google News, they said 10% by the end of his first term.

This article says 15% in a decade.

Thanks for splitting nose hairs in a pathetic and hopeless attempt to deflect my criticism of Obamanation's Energy Plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: pdq
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

Alice's article suggests a real-life truth: scientists will invent things that improve our lives. Politicians will not.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:26 PM

Obama did the same thing with warrantless spying. I think he thinks that politics in this round is about compromise -- he's always been big on compromise. Give them offshore drilling, and I can have my thing. His problem (like a lot of people's) is that the right wing figured out how to roll this awhile ago. Stake out a farright position, and then claim that compromise means going halfway back to a position that is less far out, but still nothing you would want. This has been the strategy for how long now?

I just don't figure how he thinks this is going to get Democrats to get out and really hustle for him. What Democrats want is someone with some principles to say HELL NO.

This weaselling strategy is just not going to work. He is going to lose this election (unless of course John McCain does it for him, which is certainly plausible, given that McCain has no grasp on reality.)   

BUT WEASEL IS AS WEASEL DOES.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:27 PM

Splitting nose hairs?

Simple math will tell you that one goal is way more attainable than the other. pay attention to what you are saying. OK?

People said that we couldn't land on the moon in ten years. We did. Obama's goals are more attainable than that feat and the goals are more important to out future.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 11:34 PM

He laid out the parameters of a program that could work if it was pursued vigorously.

Noone argues that the benefits are critical to the future of the nation: less dependence, revitalized manufacturing, more reliance on renewables, etc., etc. So what the hell is the natter with you yahoos that you think the correct response is to attack the speaker?

I have yet to see anyone come up with a rebuttal based on the facts. You guys have spent way tooo long at the end of Bitter Street. Snap out of it, buddyroe.

Get the numbers straight and lets see if you can arrive at a better plan to acheive comparable goals.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 11:49 PM

Except reducing energy demand by that amount in the time frame he is talking about isn't as plausible as getting to the moon, because NO ONE has been able to slow, much less reverse demand for energy.

Today's speech, Friday's interview--is pure political pandering for votes by Obama, just like it was when McCain did the same the thing.

Both McCain and Obama are using the Bush strategy on offshore drilling (ie linking gas prices to offshore drilling, the same way they linked S. Hussein to 9/11) to rationalize flipping their position on drilling, in order to get votes and donations from the oil industry.

So far, it is working great for McCain.

We'll see how it lays out for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 11:58 PM

Energy Pimping
By Kevin Drum

Aug 4, 2008

(Political Animal) ENERGY PIMPING....From the LA Times this afternoon:

    Democrat Barack Obama called today for tapping the nation's strategic oil reserves to help drive down gasoline prices, a shift from his previous position on the issue. The reversal is the second refinement in Obama's energy policy....

Every single story I've read about Obama's energy speech today has the exact same lead: it's yet another switcheroo from the Democratic candidate. Flip flop, flip flop.

And we can't blame this one on the media, folks: Obama really is flopping around on energy policy, and he's doing it in the most craven possible way, switching from correct but politically risky stands to dumb panders. In fact, between the two of them, McCain and Obama have now pretty much written the handbook on idiotic energy pimping: a gas tax holiday, offshore drilling, opening up the SPR, a windfall profits tax, and nukes for all. I don't think either one has come out for a massive coal liquification program yet, but since that's about the only thing left that's worse than what they've offered so far, I assume it can't be more than a few days away.

And yes, I know that underneath the BS Obama has a pretty good energy policy and McCain doesn't. Big deal. That energy policy isn't going to see the light of day unless Obama starts building public support for it. So far he isn't even trying.



Copyright 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:02 AM

From LA Times:


Barack Obama shifts on tapping national oil reserves

In a campaign speech in Michigan, the candidate suggested releasing oil from the emergency stockpile, a relief plan reminiscent of President Clinton's in 2000.

By Michael Muskal and Peter Nicholas, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
12:07 PM PDT, August 4, 2008

LANSING, MICH. -- Democrat Barack Obama called today for tapping the nation's strategic oil reserves to help drive down gasoline prices, a shift from his previous position on the issue.

The reversal is the second refinement in Obama's energy policy. Last week, he said that he would reluctantly consider accepting some offshore oil drilling. Obama had previously said he opposed such drilling, which is strongly backed by rival John McCain, who has urged that states be allowed to decide whether to drill.

McCain has been able to score political points on energy issues in recent weeks, particularly in swing states such as Michigan.

Recent polls show that McCain has gained some traction on the energy issue. For example, the latest Quinnipiac University poll for the Wall Street Journal and washingtonpost.com shows that Obama tops McCain 46% to 42% compared with a previous lead of 48% to 42%.

Energy issues are the leading concern -- more important in most polls than the war in Iraq -- and voters say they support offshore oil drilling. Other polls show similar results in the West and Southwest, also key electoral battlegrounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

Obama outlined three steps he'd take to meet that goal:

# Build fuel-efficient cars and have one million 150 mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrids on the roads within six years

Is that possible just because he says so?

# Require that 10 percent of the country's energy come from renewable sources by the end of his first term.

Is that possible and at what cost?

# Call on businesses, government and the American people to meet the goal of reducing the demand for electricity 15 percent by the end of the next decade.

Whaaaa? He says we have an energy crisis so use less? We have to solve the problem ourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM

"Stereo politicians, talking out of both sides of their mouths....."

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:30 AM

Some may be interested in:

Transcript: Obama's 'New Energy for America' Speech

Originally Aired: August 4, 2008

John

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:09 AM

",,,0.5% of the sales in 2004 were hybrids. In 2008? Final figures aren't in, but we do know that the minute gas prices drop, so do hybrid sales, as happened in 06/07. Hybrids were 2.5% of the market in 2007, a whopping 2% growth in three years.

Looked at the other way, it's an increase of 400%. Carry on increasibg at that rate and in ten years or so the entire sales would be hybrid.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:51 AM

Yeah, so I wonder why we haven't carried on at that rate, huh McGrath of Harlow?

The purchase of hybrids in the US is still rare, when compared to all other vehicles.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

Responses from environmental groups are starting to dribble in (if you want to know why it's a dribble, read "Been Brown So Long It Looked Like Green to Me" by Jeffrey St Clair).

Here are excerpts I've gleaned so far, from the mainstream (not radical) environmental mags online:

Friends of the Earth President Brent Blackwelder was quick to criticize Obama's position switch. "Friends of the Earth Action endorsed Barack Obama in May in large part because he spoke out against the 'gas tax holiday' gimmick that would have done nothing to reduce our dependence on oil," Blackwelder said in a statement Monday afternoon. "That's why it's so disappointing to see Obama now say he would consider expanding offshore drilling, even though he knows it is not a real solution to the energy crisis that is devastating our environment and our economy." Blackwelder also criticized the "Gang of 10" legislation for including funding for liquefied coal and nuclear power.

Adam Kolton, the senior director of congressional and federal affairs for the National Wildlife Federation, says there's been more than enough compromising on drilling already, pointing to the large portion of the Gulf of Mexico that was opened to drilling in 2006 and the part of the National Petroleum Reserve in Alaska that President Clinton freed up in 1998. "In the case of the environment, we've been compromising," he said. "I mean, at some point, you can say let's compromise, but you keep giving away more and more."

Kolton also criticized the "Gang of 10" plan. "This is like a BLT sandwich with just the lettuce and tomato," he said. "There's no bacon. We've got to have things that really move us away from our addiction to oil and help solve global warming. This proposal doesn't get it done."

League of Conservation Voters President Gene Karpinski knocked the compromise mindset too. "Once we have a new president and more forward-thinking members in the House and Senate, we don't believe we will need a 'compromise' on offshore drilling, which will be yet another giveaway to Big Oil and will provide no relief for hard hit consumers," saud Karpinski in an statement to Grist. "We will resist any effort to pay this ransom which George Bush, John McCain, and Big Oil are demanding in exchange for the release of real investments in clean, renewable energy."

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:10 AM

ALl of which has nothing to do with the subject.

DV, as he made perfectly clear in the speech, had you but paid attention, it is simply untrue that no-one has managed the demand of energy. He cites in particular the state of California as an example.

ANd McCain did not do the same thing by a long shot.

You're being intransigent, obstreperous and conclusively ill-informed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:13 AM

But the mainstream environmental organizations that are addicted to the Washington gravy train, predictably also praised Obama's energy plan.

No other cause demonstrates how effectively the Democratic party has systemically destroyed the progressive left movement in the US by co-opting it and taking "inside" the party apparatus, than the mainstream environmental lobby.

For instance, here is what the mighty Sierra Club leadership had to say:

A Sierra Club press release on Monday ignored the offshore-drilling issue entirely and simply heaped praise on Obama's energy platform (and scorn on John McCain's). "Sen. Obama's plan will put America on the path to a clean energy future because it prioritizes efforts that will benefit working families instead of the outdated fossil-fuel industries," said Sierra Club Political Director Cathy Duvall. "Sen. Obama supports creating millions of jobs by investing in the cleanest, cheapest, and fastest technologies to meet our energy needs and stimulate our economy."

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:29 AM

No, I'm stating the opinion of an environmental activist, Amos. Because you don't like that opinion doesn't make me intransigent, obstreperous and conclusively ill-informed."

I would also like to point out to Alice, the story she pointed to about the supposed MIT miracle, is nothing of the sort.

From Grist:

Energy doesn't come from the ether

The hoopla about this all over the internet is on a par with those who write as if energy efficiency creates energy. Energy efficiency uses less for a given task, but doesn't create energy. And this purportedly nearly magical catalyst can't create more energy than the electricity that goes into it. Since regular old electrolysis can be up to 70% effective, how much better can this be? You still have to produce more extra energy than you would need for all the things you want to do when the sun's not shining brightly on your panels, and you still have to convert the energy twice, losing some of it each time. But this sounds so reassuringly utopian to those who don't think rationally about the bottom line: the amount of the sun's energy that falls on a given surface in the best of circumstances and the conversion of that energy into electricity or, in this case, into electricity, then hydrogen, then back into electricity.

This hype from MIT doesn't change this basic fact: the energy of sunlight is extremely diffuse. Thus, capturing it--even in the most efficient manner possibly allowed by the laws of physics, much less with multiple energy-losing conversions in between production and use--would require vast seas of solar panels on the scale of tens of thousands of square miles to supply even only the present electrical needs of the USA (30,000 square miles, according to Scientific American, for just some of the energy we need).

But you can tell from the excitement online that this marriage of two of the most-exaggerated energy panaceas of the unrealistic future has the dreamers' hearts all aflutter. Sunshine is wonderful, but it won't provide all the energy we need. Nor will sunshine and wind. And MIT isn't going to change that. You can't beat the laws of physics.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
From: pdq
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:30 AM

"Sierra Club Political Director Cathy Duvall (said): 'Sen. Obama supports creating millions of jobs by investing in the cleanest, cheapest, and fastest technologies to meet our energy needs and stimulate our economy.'"

Yep, the great conservation organizations of the past are now Environmental groups. Just cheering sections for Democrat politicos. No concern about plants and animals, just politics and keeping the donations maxed out.